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MasterKey89
08-05-2009, 10:28 PM
So we found a buyer for our 300 hp ob mercury that is on our 22 classic. We are going to convert her back to what she should be an inboard. So if anyone has any suggestions for engines/drives/props etc.. please help.
We are thinking about going with the 496 mag HO with a supercharger, and bravo one drive. Any idea's on the performance of that package? We would like to see the boat break 80 mph.

zelatore
08-05-2009, 10:37 PM
Cheapest/easiest way to break 80?

Stock 502 and a procharger.

That'll do it, and should be more reliable than the 8.1

(like I should talk :bonk:)

mrfixxall
08-05-2009, 10:38 PM
So we found a buyer for our 300 hp ob mercury that is on our 22 classic. We are going to convert her back to what she should be an inboard. So if anyone has any suggestions for engines/drives/props etc.. please help.
We are thinking about going with the 496 mag HO with a supercharger, and bravo one drive. Any idea's on the performance of that package? We would like to see the boat break 80 mph.


Save your $$$ and find a 502, a 496 is a granade motor with a supercharger..

try to find a 500 hp efi or a 525 and go from their..a 525 efi and a shorty drive will put you in the 80's

MasterKey89
08-05-2009, 10:46 PM
Thanks, any ideas where to get a nice 502?

BUIZILLA
08-06-2009, 07:19 AM
have you thought about selling the boat as-is and just getting one that has the power you want already done?

Air 22
08-06-2009, 08:27 AM
Thanks, any ideas where to get a nice 502?


http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/rebuilt_502_500_hp_long_block_replacement_engine_o nly_2_left-o9825-en.html

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 08:37 AM
http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/rebuilt_502_500_hp_long_block_replacement_engine_o nly_2_left-o9825-en.html

Yep, this + Shorty

mrfixxall
08-06-2009, 09:42 AM
Before you go that route have you considered a speedmaster lower and a jack plate?

fegettes
08-06-2009, 09:50 AM
have you thought about selling the boat as-is and just getting one that has the power you want already done?

This is an excellent idea.

Also, The Harbormaster did the exact same thing you are trying to accomplish. Do a search on his efforts.

Good Luck.

BigGrizzly
08-06-2009, 10:08 AM
Fonse racing isw also a procharger dealer/distributor. Walk away from a 496. However I am with Buiz on this there is too much to do in the conversion.

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 11:29 AM
Well here are my thoughts on the new boat matter. We live in the Bahamas so it's a bit of a pain to get a new boat down here, and the past year I've put my soul into the boat re-doing the gelcoat, all new interior, upholstry, carpet, all new monster livorsi gauges and carbon fiber dash panel, the boat is personal to me now lol. Also have a really good deal on selling the current engine. We are going to have a good boat yard down here redo the transom altogether becuase of the way the engine mount is now there would'nt be a way to salvage it. So as far as what we have to do, I'm hoping just order the engine, drive, and everything else needed for the conversion, and have our good friend who is the mercury dealer for the island help us drop it in. I am not very informed with inboards b/c we have never owned one, so I'm not sure what a shorty drive is? Who makes them? Thanks for all the help so far, b/c we probably would have ended up with a 496 ho supercharged and bravo 1 drive if it were not for this website.

handfulz28
08-06-2009, 11:54 AM
http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/rebuilt_502_500_hp_long_block_replacement_engine_o nly_2_left-o9825-en.html


Yep, this + Shorty

Just FWIW, the price is just for long block. Still need to complete the package...plus exhaust. At that price would work out over $20k before ready to drop in?

Just guessing, but the budget for a 496 + supercharger + Bravo, if paying your dealer buddy for new parts, would be over $20k, maybe near $25k? If you've got that kind of budget, you have lots of options to shop for.

Do you want what's already been done and proven, or do you want to make something unique? The recipe for 80mph is pretty much a done deal: 550hp + Bravo (shorty or raised X) + hydraulic steering.

Or go crazy and pick one of these: http://www.youngperformancemarine.com/ (in black & silver, with black hose fittings) and mate it to one of these: http://www.konradmarine.com/index.cfm?optionid=8172
Might put you a little over budget...:shades:

mrfixxall
08-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Well here are my thoughts on the new boat matter. We live in the Bahamas so it's a bit of a pain to get a new boat down here, and the past year I've put my soul into the boat re-doing the gelcoat, all new interior, upholstry, carpet, all new monster livorsi gauges and carbon fiber dash panel, the boat is personal to me now lol. Also have a really good deal on selling the current engine. We are going to have a good boat yard down here redo the transom altogether becuase of the way the engine mount is now there would'nt be a way to salvage it. So as far as what we have to do, I'm hoping just order the engine, drive, and everything else needed for the conversion, and have our good friend who is the mercury dealer for the island help us drop it in. I am not very informed with inboards b/c we have never owned one, so I'm not sure what a shorty drive is? Who makes them? Thanks for all the help so far, b/c we probably would have ended up with a 496 ho supercharged and bravo 1 drive if it were not for this website.

If your going to go that route make sure you being in salt water all the time you get a closed cooling system and stainless steel headers..Go to tins webb page and chack out the shorty,if your going to get 500+ hp then you will need a bullet proof drive, carl c had low hours on his bravo drive and granaded it with his 525efi so over kill wont hurt if you plan on running the boat hard..http://www.imcomarine.com/ca_store/index.php a shorty would be a sc lower,click on the sc drive pkg and its on the bottom of the page..

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Ya we are in salt water, and we are selling our 2 300's for about 20k. So our budget is around that area. I don't care for being unique as long as the boat sounds and performs like a beast! We would like to see 80+ and from the over all consensus im seeing the 550 hp and shorty drive is the way to go.

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 12:36 PM
Just FWIW, the price is just for long block. Still need to complete the package...plus exhaust. At that price would work out over $20k before ready to drop in?

Just guessing, but the budget for a 496 + supercharger + Bravo, if paying your dealer buddy for new parts, would be over $20k, maybe near $25k? If you've got that kind of budget, you have lots of options to shop for.

Do you want what's already been done and proven, or do you want to make something unique? The recipe for 80mph is pretty much a done deal: 550hp + Bravo (shorty or raised X) + hydraulic steering.

Or go crazy and pick one of these: http://www.youngperformancemarine.com/ (in black & silver, with black hose fittings) and mate it to one of these: http://www.konradmarine.com/index.cfm?optionid=8172
Might put you a little over budget...:shades:

Good point. I noticed the long block too. Lot's of folks tend to overlook that when looking at crate engines.

One of Eddie's 650's with a Konrad would be a BEAST. You could beat on it all day long. But you are right, would cost a little more than 20k:shocking:

handfulz28
08-06-2009, 01:35 PM
Yeah, I think the ACE is over $20k just for that package?

OK, so still a little off the beaten path, but close enough to be easily servicable. Obviously I like doing things a little different, so I don't want Merc stuff.

How about a Marine Power 502PFI or Volvo 502Gsi with a Volvo DPX drive? Most difficult part is you probably can't find 'em new...which isn't the end of the world since they'd need some updates to increase the power.

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 02:03 PM
Yeah, I think the ACE is over $20k just for that package?

OK, so still a little off the beaten path, but close enough to be easily servicable. Obviously I like doing things a little different, so I don't want Merc stuff.

How about a Marine Power 502PFI or Volvo 502Gsi with a Volvo DPX drive? Most difficult part is you probably can't find 'em new...which isn't the end of the world since they'd need some updates to increase the power.

No shorty for the Volvo so it will need to make a good bit more power.

I am not up to speed on the Marine Power setup but I have heard that one of the companies that does a 500 EFI knock off uses a pretty nasty cam.

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 02:19 PM
I'd say our budget for the total drop in the boat package would be anywhere from 20 - 25k. We are looking for something real reliable b/c we are going to run it hard, and it is in a salt enviroment. The 496 ho with the bravo one drive was going to be around 20k brand new. What does one of the 502 drop in pkgs and an imco shorty run?

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 02:34 PM
Right now the most appealing package I can see is the 525 efi http://www.mercuryracing.com/sterndrives/hp525efi.php along with the imco shorty drive http://imcomarine.com/ca_store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_33&products_id=768 and the procharger marine supercharger. My only concern is how much all of that will run us.

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 02:35 PM
I'd say our budget for the total drop in the boat package would be anywhere from 20 - 25k. We are looking for something real reliable b/c we are going to run it hard, and it is in a salt enviroment. The 496 ho with the bravo one drive was going to be around 20k brand new. What does one of the 502 drop in pkgs and an imco shorty run?

The 80mph mark is hard to obtain for $20-25K in a "drop in" package. Doable but will require the right deal and some creative thinking and will not be "drop in."

I like closed cooling for salt water. Let's say you found a deal on a 525 for $15k (it would have some time on it for that price). You would have to score one heck of a deal on the drive, steering and transom assembly. Then you have labor.

If you want a true drop in with new parts and 80mph, you will drop some coin. The XR upper and IMCO lower will run $7,500-8,500, new steering $4,000 and so on.

It costs a bunch more to go 80 than 70

handfulz28
08-06-2009, 02:52 PM
I "think" Marine Power used to offer an X Power option? 502 shortblock with bigger power parts. They finally put together a new website but don't see those on there.

No shorty, so raise the X? I think I read, is it Tony's 22C with Volvo 454/DPX?, does 73-ish w E4 props, bone stock? More power, -1 or -2", E6 props....80mph?

If you get a 525EFI, you don't even need the supercharger. If you acquire a standard 502MPI, add the supercharger, you're right in the same ballpark.

It's unlikely that $20-25k is going to get you all new parts. Some you'll find that buying used won't really save much since prices on new parts have come down (Bravo transom assemblies for example). Keep working on what you want to end up with and then start shopping for parts.

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 03:29 PM
Yes, I forgot that you will have a clean transom and can raise the X a couple of inches eliminating the need for a shorty.

Has anyone taken a DXP to 80? What about hydraulic steering and volvo drives? I know that some of then have it and I know that the add on has been done but it was pretty pricey.

I would like to see someone break 80 with a new volvo setup but don't know of any.

I am pretty weak on the volvo subject.

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Ok well the idea of the 525 with no supercharger is sounding even better to me more $$$ saved. So since we are starting with a clean transom if i got the package deal from mercury with the 525 efi with closed cooling kit and bravo one XR drive and raise the X on the drive I should hit 80+? Lets not worry about the price right now. Im looking first at the most convenient thing to do, b/c we could order all of that right through our buddy at mercury and we would be straight. Or would it be better to just order the 525 efi and still go with the shorty drive?

mrfixxall
08-06-2009, 03:49 PM
Ok well the idea of the 525 with no supercharger is sounding even better to me more $$$ saved. So since we are starting with a clean transom if i got the package deal from mercury with the 525 efi with closed cooling kit and bravo one XR drive and raise the X on the drive I should hit 80+? Lets not worry about the price right now. Im looking first at the most convenient thing to do, b/c we could order all of that right through our buddy at mercury and we would be straight. Or would it be better to just order the 525 efi and still go with the shorty drive?


A new 525efi is 35+k from mercruiser,,start looking for a low hr used one..

blackhawk
08-06-2009, 03:56 PM
Eddie Young had a pair of complete 525s with around 150 hours awhile ago and I think his last price was $30k. Not sure if he would separate them or not.

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 04:00 PM
Ya 35k isnt too good for just the engine, I will start looking :crossfing:

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 04:14 PM
Ok so back to the drawing board on the engine, I've been looking around on offshoreonly with the 550 hp+ goal in mind and have found a couple of engines on there. Like the Brand new 2009 Bullet 540c.i.d. 650hp: http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/brand_new_2009_bullet_540c_i_d_650hp_23_950_summer _sale_only_two_left_in_stock-o29517-en.html and this 540 bulldog http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/motor_package_inc_exhaust-o26574-en.html both with pretty good prices, but I've never heard of these engines will they fit? are they any good? or should i keep looking for a 502 or 525?

mrfixxall
08-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Ok so back to the drawing board on the engine, I've been looking around on offshoreonly with the 550 hp+ goal in mind and have found a couple of engines on there. Like the Brand new 2009 Bullet 540c.i.d. 650hp: http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/brand_new_2009_bullet_540c_i_d_650hp_23_950_summer _sale_only_two_left_in_stock-o29517-en.html and this 540 bulldog http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/motor_package_inc_exhaust-o26574-en.html both with pretty good prices, but I've never heard of these engines will they fit? are they any good? or should i keep looking for a 502 or 525?


Bulldogs were bullit proof in their time,just add closed cooling and your ready to go:)

Contact harbormaster,,ask him about the ls1,lighter then a big block and has all the power of one to! i think he is getting around 16k for them...complete drop in..

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 04:23 PM
Cool. So we have a 650 hp bulldog at 9,900. Now we need a drive, and closed cooling kit. Say we get the imco shorty at 8,500. were at 18,500. Any ideas on a where to get a good closed cooling kit and new steering?

BUIZILLA
08-06-2009, 06:20 PM
Young will split his package... and it's fresh water cooled I think..

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 08:05 PM
Does anyone know a conntact for Eddie Young, if I could get one of those it would be a good deal.

BUIZILLA
08-06-2009, 08:08 PM
Main - Young Performance Marine (http://www.youngperformancemarine.com/index.htm)

MasterKey89
08-06-2009, 08:13 PM
Thanks :)

The Hedgehog
08-06-2009, 08:58 PM
Does anyone know a conntact for Eddie Young, if I could get one of those it would be a good deal.

They are on a guy named Micheal Prince's 42 Fountain. He lives about 20 miles from my house and he goes out in Center Hill and Chattanooga. Let me know if you want me to get a peek at them.

Air 22
08-06-2009, 09:42 PM
Last fall I found my HP500EFI on Offshore Only...10k Complete Freashwater Drop-In 127hrs of which 84hrs were at idle(per laptop diagnostic)....They were a pair of 500's that the owner split up...I got a heck of a deal and the timing was perfect...the economy was really bad (still ain't great).. and he needed to sell....keep hunting...you may find something....FWIW you can add closed cooling to a HP500EFI as well...I'm running 80-81 in our 22C:wink:

BigGrizzly
08-07-2009, 07:38 AM
Handfull, No way is a 525efi even close to a supercharged 502. Trust me I have had a supercharged 502 for 9 years now. My dream engine would be a short deck 540 with a supercharger. Raising the X is a poor option at best. the last thing I want is to raise the center of gravity.

The Hedgehog
08-07-2009, 08:44 AM
Handfull, No way is a 525efi even close to a supercharged 502. Trust me I have had a supercharged 502 for 9 years now. My dream engine would be a short deck 540 with a supercharger. Raising the X is a poor option at best. the last thing I want is to raise the center of gravity.

I thought that you said there was an issue with a short deck making over 700 hp?

handfulz28
08-07-2009, 09:19 AM
Handfull, No way is a 525efi even close to a supercharged 502.

Sheesh Grizz, read between the lines. How much power does a 525 make at the crank? Ballpark numbers are 540hp. How much power will a bone stock 502MPI with a Procharger make, without going nuts with pulleys? I don't know exact numbers, but I'm guessing it's "somewhere around" what the 525 makes. I doubt it makes significantly more power for the same level of reliability.

I seriously doubt your 9yr old 502 compares to a bone stock Merc. You just don't do "bone stock." :D And talking 540s throws the comparison into a whole 'nuther set of tables.

handfulz28
08-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Raising the X is a poor option at best. the last thing I want is to raise the center of gravity.

Then why does/did Donzi do it for the special editions of the 22C that got the raised X? I'm no engineer, but just how much change in CG is there with a 1-2" increase in engine height? I could see a greater effect coming from less "rudder"/vertical stabilizer being in the water then an actual change in CG.

:angel:

The Hedgehog
08-07-2009, 10:03 AM
Sheesh Grizz, read between the lines. How much power does a 525 make at the crank? Ballpark numbers are 540hp. How much power will a bone stock 502MPI with a Procharger make, without going nuts with pulleys? I don't know exact numbers, but I'm guessing it's "somewhere around" what the 525 makes. I doubt it makes significantly more power for the same level of reliability.

I seriously doubt your 9yr old 502 compares to a bone stock Merc. You just don't do "bone stock." :D And talking 540s throws the comparison into a whole 'nuther set of tables.

I have actually run the gamut of 502MPI and Prochargers.

I have owned a stock 502 MPI with a Procharger and explored everything in between than and my 540. I have a friend that has owned pretty much every step from stock to 800+hp.

You are right, a standard issue 502 MPI Procharged makes around 575hp right out of the box if you tune it per prochargers specs. That is not much more than a 525 EFI at the crank. That will give you a nice black transom. Clean it up, reprogram the ECU and dial in the fuel pressure you will probably get around 600 hp. IMHO if you really want to dial it in with a wide band to push the limits harder you might get 620 but one stick of the boost reference fuel pressure regulator and it is meltdown city.

I think that there is a big difference between the 620 that they claim which is under optimum conditions and setting vs the real world that they give you out of the box.

The Hedgehog
08-07-2009, 04:22 PM
Since you are talking about a new drive anyway, I would rather have my engine lower and use a shorty. I do like the lower CG thing. It won't cost much more to buy and XR upper and IMCO shorty lower. You can get the shorty in a powdercoated version for salt water.

BigGrizzly
08-07-2009, 06:24 PM
No Hedge That got confused it is the 502, and only on the durability that some guys build. The 540 is in my opinion is the short or tall a great motor. Guys likr Eddie and Garry have the things dialed in. They may be better then most. I have seen some really bad ones. Garry usually puts rollers in the bull dogs if he re does them, to take out the only weak point they have.

The Hedgehog
08-07-2009, 06:59 PM
No Hedge That got confused it is the 502, and only on the durability that some guys build. The 540 is in my opinion is the short or tall a great motor. Guys likr Eddie and Garry have the things dialed in. They may be better then most. I have seen some really bad ones. Garry usually puts rollers in the bull dogs if he re does them, to take out the only weak point they have.

Ok, that makes sense.

SilverBack
08-07-2009, 07:09 PM
I raised my X 3 inches and went with a 2 inch shorter IMCO lower. I think that it does pretty well. I am not trying to brag but for a non step hull the speed that I am going is pretty darn good. I was told by some people that raising the X would be terrible and would not work but in my case the people that were saying that it was the wrong thing to do were just WRONG. Some people think that the thing that they are doing is the best way to go. In a lot of cases that is not the correct.

I think that I am going up another 2 inches this winter as a matter of fact.

blackhawk
08-07-2009, 07:39 PM
Then why does/did Donzi do it for the special editions of the 22C that got the raised X? I'm no engineer, but just how much change in CG is there with a 1-2" increase in engine height? I could see a greater effect coming from less "rudder"/vertical stabilizer being in the water then an actual change in CG.

:angel:

Exactly, you wouldn't even notice the difference.

The Hedgehog
08-07-2009, 10:40 PM
I raised my X 3 inches and went with a 2 inch shorter IMCO lower. I think that it does pretty well. I am not trying to brag but for a non step hull the speed that I am going is pretty darn good. I was told by some people that raising the X would be terrible and would not work but in my case the people that were saying that it was the wrong thing to do were just WRONG. Some people think that the thing that they are doing is the best way to go. In a lot of cases that is not the correct.

I think that I am going up another 2 inches this winter as a matter of fact.

Man,

You are so far past conventional logic I don't even know what to say!

I can respect that though. I think that you should really consider going to an Arneson with that hull. You are already in the surface drive X range, you may as well get the benefit.

BTW, I am digging my new cooler. My EFI absolutely LOVES it.

roadtrip se
08-08-2009, 08:59 AM
Then why does/did Donzi do it for the special editions of the 22C that got the raised X? I'm no engineer, but just how much change in CG is there with a 1-2" increase in engine height? I could see a greater effect coming from less "rudder"/vertical stabilizer being in the water then an actual change in CG.

:angel:

Ever try to drive one of these things with the raised X-dim from the factory? Spend the big bucks for a new special edition and hope you can drive it,
because somebody monkeyed with the x-dim. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

On the Classic, CG does make a difference, a big difference. There have been some packages that work at an inch to to an inch and a half up, but why go for the crapshoot? The shorty works well 99% of the time and the engine stays down low, where the CG is right.

Engines? I would find some way to buy a 525efi. 80+ and bulit in salt durability. Blue motor... good.

BigGrizzly
08-08-2009, 09:34 AM
Well the raised the X for the reason that Poodle said. I was told by a test driver that it was a bear to drive and has had prop issues. If you think Donzi is always correct go back to the stringer issue change in design. This was about the same tine the X was going to be raised. I think if a 500EFI is 1,200 lbs as some have stated is raised 2 inches on a round bottom 22 it should make a large difference since this is 1/3 the total weigh of the boat. Now couple that with a drive that was not engineered for this, you will have an issue. Maybe that is why the hydraulic steering. However make no mistake you can't compare the black hawk to a normal classic because the hull is different. I can personally tell you that just shortening the drive makes a big difference even when the drive is designed for it. I am luckier then most, because I get to spend so much time testing different boats I get to run the full spectrum of boats, plus the amount of time spent in my own boat before the change in shorter drive heights without moving the engine. I love my new job, being retired. Money is not as good but you can not have it all.

BigGrizzly
08-08-2009, 09:57 AM
Hedge, I was not talking about my engine but many others. I did only include 5psi boost in my mental calculations, just to even out the playing field. If I did not do this I would not be Me. My personal engine is different in so many ways. First it is carburetor engine, next aluminum heads, that is just the visual. It was a purpose built engine with the design on durability and fuel economy. As you know Procharger runs things too fat to keep detonation down and the techs are not up on anything that is not stock even stock I have my doubts. Now lets take a STOCK 502 EFI, add a M1 or M3 procharger, Let Eddie tune it to 5 psi of boost. Now the playing field is level. I will bet dinner on the fact that in the same 22 classic Eddies engine will out perform the 525EFI. The reason I am stating it this way is because the 525 is put together by professionals, so should the Procharged 502 be done by a professional.

The Hedgehog
08-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Hedge, I was not talking about my engine but many others. I did only include 5psi boost in my mental calculations, just to even out the playing field. If I did not do this I would not be Me. My personal engine is different in so many ways. First it is carburetor engine, next aluminum heads, that is just the visual. It was a purpose built engine with the design on durability and fuel economy. As you know Procharger runs things too fat to keep detonation down and the techs are not up on anything that is not stock even stock I have my doubts. Now lets take a STOCK 502 EFI, add a M1 or M3 procharger, Let Eddie tune it to 5 psi of boost. Now the playing field is level. I will bet dinner on the fact that in the same 22 classic Eddies engine will out perform the 525EFI. The reason I am stating it this way is because the 525 is put together by professionals, so should the Procharged 502 be done by a professional.

I won't disagree with you there. All experienced blower people know that it is all in the setup.

An out of the box system just thrown on the engine will get you around 575. As I said, the properly tuned system will be more like 620. Yes, that 620hp system would spank a 525.

You are right about those Procharger techs! When I did mine in the 502 I quickly discovered that it ran in cold start mode. Larry the guy that put it in had actually put in some resisters to trick the ECU into thinking that the motor was warm on a Procharged engine. Procharger said that they liked the cold start mode because it was safer. The engine was a blubbering mess but would run ok when the boost kicked in. I later found out that Procharger actually offered a kit to fool the ECU. What a bandaid. That was then I called Mark Boos. He told me that he got into the whole calibration business as a result of tuning Procharged engines.

I spent days trying to get it in tune. I did it in the end and probably got lucky a few times. I would imagine someone like Garry or Eddie would pop the charger on, throw a cal on the ECU and break out a wide band. The tuning would probably be accomplished in a couple of runs then voila, 620hp.

Yes, get a pro involved in the process. You will not be sorry. You will probably pick up around 50 hp and have a much better running boat. If I had not talked to Mark I would have been one of those guys that ran around with a blubbering boat and messy transom.

BigGrizzly
08-08-2009, 12:33 PM
Amen to that. My problem is I am used ti doing it the right way or don't do it. I guess I am just too old to remember the old shade tree, probably because I always had a good instructor around.