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View Full Version : Paint or Gel - What's the latest?



seano
07-31-2009, 10:39 AM
I know we've gone over this debate 100 times, but I'm getting ready to do the blue 16 and wonder what is the best way to go...
I did the hull and deck of my 16 Superboat with gelcoat and it came out great, but developed some small blisters after I left it in the water for more than 2 weeks. Nothing serious, but enough to give me pause...
I went with gelcoat on the Superboat because it does not require primer, and since I didn't plan on changing the color, I did not want to prime and paint...thus any small scratches would really go unnoticed.
So with the '69 16 Donzi, I was considering wet sand, compound, wax, but think i need a more permanent solution considering the gelcoat is a medium to dark blue and would require constant maintenance given the age of the hull. So I am considering either Imron or Gel again and wonder what the rest of you think.
I am keeping the color the same and wonder what is best? I'm still leaning towards gelcoat, and the boat will sit in the salt water for a couple weeks at a time(the horror!), so I need something durable.
Any suggestions?

Conquistador_del_mar
07-31-2009, 11:08 AM
I know we've gone over this debate 100 times, but I'm getting ready to do the blue 16 and wonder what is the best way to go...
I did the hull and deck of my 16 Superboat with gelcoat and it came out great, but developed some small blisters after I left it in the water for more than 2 weeks. Nothing serious, but enough to give me pause...
I went with gelcoat on the Superboat because it does not require primer, and since I didn't plan on changing the color, I did not want to prime and paint...thus any small scratches would really go unnoticed.
So with the '69 16 Donzi, I was considering wet sand, compound, wax, but think i need a more permanent solution considering the gelcoat is a medium to dark blue and would require constant maintenance given the age of the hull. So I am considering either Imron or Gel again and wonder what the rest of you think.
I am keeping the color the same and wonder what is best? I'm still leaning towards gelcoat, and the boat will sit in the salt water for a couple weeks at a time(the horror!), so I need something durable.
Any suggestions?

I personally like the gloss and durability of Imron, but it will not last sitting in the water - at least if you paint the hull bottom. Anything above the waterline will not have a problem, though. You could Imron the deck and gelcoat the hull for your usage where it will sit in the water for a couple weeks at a time. Bill

gcarter
07-31-2009, 11:40 AM
Probably the best solution is to gel the hull and paint the deck.
It's cheaper and easier to color match paint to the gel rather than the other way around.
If there's a problem color matching Imron, there's plenty of high end single stage automotive paints available that will match.

seano
07-31-2009, 12:24 PM
any reason not to gelcoat the deck too? I think it may be difficult to match the color and shine if i do the deck in imron and the hull in gelcoat.

i am doing the entire hull...including below the waterline

what about awlgrip? prob a bad choice...right?

The Hedgehog
07-31-2009, 12:37 PM
any reason not to gelcoat the deck too? I think it may be difficult to match the color and shine if i do the deck in imron and the hull in gelcoat.
i am doing the entire hull...including below the waterline
what about awlgrip? prob a bad choice...right?

Spray gelcoat on the whole hull....hmmm, what do you say gcarter?:popcorn:

mrfixxall
07-31-2009, 12:42 PM
any reason not to gelcoat the deck too? I think it may be difficult to match the color and shine if i do the deck in imron and the hull in gelcoat.
i am doing the entire hull...including below the waterline
what about awlgrip? prob a bad choice...right?


imron and awlgrip will hold a shine way longer then gel will, thats the only reason to paint the deck..find the stock color of the gel thats on the boat now,spray a piece of smooth wood with the gel,wet sand and buff the piece that you sprayed with the gel on it, take it to your local automotive paint supply store and they can match the color with the computorized paint matching software..

Down fall to imron and awlgrip is if you get a chip or a scratch your painting the whole area,it dont feather back too good,it chips and leaves a slight ridge because its so hard...all the ocean liners and cruise ships are painted with awlgrip..

VetteLT193
07-31-2009, 01:28 PM
I'd go Awlgrip or Imron. Gel is used because it is cheaper to manufacture that way. not because of some mythical greatness of the product.

My Minx is Awlgrip, recently done. My brother's 22 is Awlgrip. His 22 still shines like new after I think 9 years and a ton of use. Yes... there are some flaws in his boat, but considering he has 1800+ hours on his 22 hull it looks great. Both of our boats are painted 100%, including the bottom, sides, top, and cockpit.

If you really leave your paint in the water, you need to bottom paint it. If not Awlgrip, Imron, or Gel is just fine for short periods.

My new boat is painted by Donzi, and it's painted below the water line. I don't know exactly what kind of paint they use, but it's the same deal as the rest... leave it in for too long and the gel and paint will have problems. a few days though will be fine.

A2VeeDub
07-31-2009, 01:29 PM
My '72 was painted with awlgrip 5 years ago above and below waterline. So far it has held a great shine with no flaking or discoloration anywhere.
I never leave it in the water overnight. I wax it 2 to 3 times during the 4 month season and wash it about once a week.

gcarter
07-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Here's a thread about gelling my deck.....

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52810

Believe me when I tell you any good automotive paint store can hand match any color sample you submit.
Also, the paint on the deck will hold up MUCH better than any gel you can find.
I suspect to finish my deck took me at least 100 hours.
I can do a paint job in 1/4 the time, or less.

seano
07-31-2009, 02:16 PM
Here's a thread about gelling my deck.....

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52810

Believe me when I tell you any good automotive paint store can hand match any color sample you submit.
Also, the paint on the deck will hold up MKUCH better than any gel you can find.
I suspect to finish my deck took me at least 100 hours.
I can do a paint job in 1/4 the time, or less.

yikes...george...u r my hero

I should point out that I did not actually spray the gelcoat on the Superboat, nor do I intend to spray the Donzi. I dont have the time, expertise or requisite brain matter to do that... I do the rough prep work and bring the boat to my buddy who owns a fiberglass repair shop. He fine tunes my prep work and sprays the boat. From there, I take it home and commence sanding... Even then, I had more hours in the Superboat than I care to admit...

MOP
07-31-2009, 02:16 PM
They are 100% right on paint holding its luster longer and being easy to match. Another thing I see done especially on big motor yachts, when the finish get dull but the paint is still strong no chips or peeling, they wet sand and wash them down then shoot clear Awlgrip with UV inhibitors. A redo lie that lasts as long as the original paint job. I have been watching a local boat that the gel was shot in the same way, it is about 5-6 years now and it does look like it was just done. That may be a good option on boats where the get is not damaged but has gone south from the sun, by the way the boat I am watching is a dark green sail boat that sits on a mooring.

Phil

Pismo
07-31-2009, 03:14 PM
Paint, paint, paint, but good marine use paint like Imron or Awlgrip which can hold up better than most automotive products. My painted 20 year old gas grill left out uncovered year round looks better than 90% of gelcoated boats I see.

Barry Eller
07-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Imron. Just repainted the 502. I'll be installing accessories this weekend. Paint is cured.

Yeah, I know...just don't call the EPA. PLEASE!!!

harbormaster
07-31-2009, 06:25 PM
I matched and painted my transom colors when I redid it with no problem. I used PPG concept. My Whole boat is painted. I personally prefer gelcoat because I am a purist BUT my boat sits outside and does not get weathered like gelcoat.

gcarter
08-01-2009, 05:37 AM
One advantage of the high end automotive paints over Imron and Awlgrip is it can easily be repaired w/o leaving any indication there was ever a problem.
Using a highspeed reducer in the paint will melt the new and old paint together.
You can't do that w/Imron, Awlgrip, or gel.

Scott Pearson
08-02-2009, 09:06 AM
Paint....period:wink:

Air 22
08-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Paint....period:wink:


At some point I'm considering a complete job (Deck/Sides/Transom) for my RED 22C...what paint would you recommend? The boat spends 90% of its life on the trailer...only a week in the water @ Lake George...otherwise maybe a day or 2 @ at "dock on the bay"..:wink:

Pismo
08-02-2009, 11:40 AM
One advantage of the high end automotive paints over Imron and Awlgrip is it can easily be repaired w/o leaving any indication there was ever a problem.
Using a highspeed reducer in the paint will melt the new and old paint together.
You can't do that w/Imron, Awlgrip, or gel.

How is the abrasion resistance? The problem I am having is finding a paint that can stand say having a bumper rub on it all day and hold up. Most auto paints would not handle that well.

gcarter
08-02-2009, 12:23 PM
How is the abrasion resistance? The problem I am having is finding a paint that can stand say having a bumper rub on it all day and hold up. Most auto paints would not handle that well.
I painted the Minx's sides and the center stripe. I used BASF UNO HD single stage polyurethane paint and never had an issue. In two years I never had a scratch on any of the painted glass surfaces.
It also has incredible luster. The paint is very tough w/chemicals also, I found it very easy to clean grunge off the surface w/a soft rag and acetone.
There are a few pictures of it here;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46848

Pismo
08-02-2009, 02:31 PM
I painted the Minx's sides and the center stripe. I used BASF UNO HD single stage polyurethane paint and never had an issue. In two years I never had a scratch on any of the painted glass surfaces.
It also has incredible luster. The paint is very tough w/chemicals also, I found it very easy to clean grunge off the surface w/a soft rag and acetone.
There are a few pictures of it here;
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46848

That is beautiful. Did you do it yourself? What prep? How many coats? I could go on and on...

joseph m. hahnl
08-02-2009, 03:01 PM
gel is more durable hands down.
Paint let's you be more creative.
clear awl grip over gel would be the best of both worlds :shades:

Ghost
08-02-2009, 03:11 PM
I would think it would depend on how you keep the boat. If you can keep it ouf of the sun, I don't think I can understand why anyone wouldn't prefer to have gel. Two to three good coats of wax a year and it never seems to show any issues at all, save for occasional minor cracks when it's REALLY old. My last boat was rack stored with decent shade and always covered, and after 10 years the gel looks virtually showroom new. One spider crack to speak of.

VetteLT193
08-02-2009, 04:30 PM
IMO if your boat is going to be a trailer queen like flyboys, paint rules. But, if your going to use it, gel is more durable, and shows less of the day to day scratches..


I feel the exact opposite.

If you the boat is a garage queen, anything will work and last.

If you use the boat, a high end 'paint' like Awlgrip or Imron blows Gel away. Hatteras doesn't use gel, they don't show scratches.

The cockpit floor of our Viking was imron. It never scratched even with the brutal life of fishing.

I have managed to scratch my minx because of my old trailer bumper flipped upside down and I had metal on boat contact. Other than that, it's pretty tough stuff to scratch.

Awlgrip or Imron is also so much easier to clean for day to day use. A single wipe down is all it takes to be clean Vs. Gel which seems to absorb dirt like a sponge.

gcarter
08-02-2009, 06:36 PM
'Reads like a oil or prop thread. :wink:

Conquistador_del_mar
08-02-2009, 08:40 PM
For what it is worth, I have shot clear Imron on gelcoat after wet sanding to help keep the gloss - it works like a champ. I have shot many boats with pigmented Imron over the years without ever having problems with its adhesion or gloss over time. It is easy to repair if damaged, and it holds its gloss. Their ads used to say "the wet look that lasts". I would think all the other polyurethane single stage enamels would be just as good as Imron. My two cents, Bill

gcarter
08-02-2009, 08:55 PM
That is beautiful. Did you do it yourself? What prep? How many coats? I could go on and on...
I did it myself. There's probably one pretty heavy coat on it, it's been about five years since I did it so I'm a little hazy on it. I sprayed it over some BASF epoxy primer and sanded it w/400 wet or dry before spraying the UNO HD. The UNO HD is very easy to spray, and easy to finish if it's necessary to do anything.
It's also very hard and scratch resistant
It's priced similarly to other paints of the same type I suppose. I just had some red priced...$160.00/quart plus reducer and activator. A quart will cover a lot of territory.

Conquistador_del_mar
08-02-2009, 09:13 PM
I just had some red priced...$160.00/quart plus reducer and activator.

Yep, red is by far the most expensive color - they say the pigment is more expensive to make.

BigGrizzly
08-03-2009, 09:13 AM
I did my Corsican with Interlux two part poly in 1995 and waxed it once. you could not stand on it for years without falling off. since then I use only leverage on all my boats and even the cars. nothing sticks to it. as for abrasion. coming back from lake George with a problem I had to strap across the deck and it flapped. a little hand buffing and it is gone. My first and only boat paint job that was with a spray gun.

barrukis1
08-03-2009, 01:26 PM
What do you guys think is the best route to go if you leave the the boat in the water?

gcarter
08-03-2009, 01:52 PM
How long do you leave it in the water?
If full time, I'd do an epoxy barrier coat w/epoxy paint over it. I'm talking asbout the bottom and up to the water line. It would be easier than re-gelling as a point of comparison. But it would absolutely stop any blisters of any kind. I've done a couple of osmotic blister jobs on larger (over 30') boats and in over 15 years, there's been no blisters.

Pismo
08-04-2009, 07:16 AM
'Reads like a oil or prop thread. :wink:

People just tend to say whatever they have is the best, kind of like props and oil.... I have red gel and it sucks that is why I am looking at paint.

roadtrip se
08-04-2009, 07:25 AM
Gel for durability. Paint for bling. I haven't heard of one new performance boat manufacturer painting the running surfaces of their offerings. Could be proven wrong by some one here, but...

VetteLT193
08-04-2009, 10:29 AM
A good example of factory painted bottom boats will be any boat with an epoxy layup because they don't get along with gel. The only one I can think of for sure off hand is Dragon (yeah, I know they are gone, but other companies I'm sure are building the way they did).

Most new boats do not have painted bottoms though. it's a cost / benefit thing. Painting the bottom is a tough job and you can't see much of it so it's more cost effective to leave it gel and match the paint up to it... or in most cases leave it white or a contrasting color. Plus, most of the new graphics are color crazy so they are not spraying with something like Awlgrip (limited color selection). They are spraying a high end paint. Awlgrip is not technically a paint. Awlgrip is harder than paint and it is also harder than gel coat.

If you call around to boat painters you'll find that there tend to be 2 kinds of painters. 1) The graphics guys, who tend to use high end auto paints. These guys generally won't want to spray your bottom. 2) Marine painter guys, who specialize in Imron or Awlgrip. These guys generally will spray your bottom.

The guy who sprayed mine does bottoms with Awlgrip all the time, in the harsh environment of the Florida Keys it's considered normal. It was part of his standard list of questions to ask when he did the quote.

roadtrip se
08-04-2009, 12:37 PM
A good example of factory painted bottom boats will be any boat with an epoxy layup because they don't get along with gel. The only one I can think of for sure off hand is Dragon (yeah, I know they are gone, but other companies I'm sure are building the way they did).
Most new boats do not have painted bottoms though. it's a cost / benefit thing. Painting the bottom is a tough job and you can't see much of it so it's more cost effective to leave it gel and match the paint up to it... or in most cases leave it white or a contrasting color. Plus, most of the new graphics are color crazy so they are not spraying with something like Awlgrip (limited color selection). They are spraying a high end paint. Awlgrip is not technically a paint. Awlgrip is harder than paint and it is also harder than gel coat.
If you call around to boat painters you'll find that there tend to be 2 kinds of painters. 1) The graphics guys, who tend to use high end auto paints. These guys generally won't want to spray your bottom. 2) Marine painter guys, who specialize in Imron or Awlgrip. These guys generally will spray your bottom.
The guy who sprayed mine does bottoms with Awlgrip all the time, in the harsh environment of the Florida Keys it's considered normal. It was part of his standard list of questions to ask when he did the quote.




Two examples come to mind. Skater and Outerlimits. Fountain does some epoxy on occassion, too. So that is three that come to mind with no research done. I have never seen any of these with paint on the bottom from the factory. Colored gel? Yes. Paint? No. Based on the highline nature of these boat lines, I doubt cost or ease of production has anything to do with their reasoning for utilizing gel on their bottoms. Maybe it's performance?

gcarter
08-04-2009, 01:00 PM
I wonder if anyone offers gel formulated w/vinylester resin?
That would solve some problems.
I don't believe Mini Craft does.

VetteLT193
08-04-2009, 02:10 PM
dragon epoxy: http://www.dragonpowerboats.com/images/dragout_002.jpg

after paint: http://www.dragonpowerboats.com/images/blood10_003.jpg

I don't know enough details on how every manufacturer makes their stuff and the strengths and weaknesses of each method, but I think the big difference in an epoxy hull like Dragon Vs. Skater has to do with post curing.

Fountain is pretty much out of this game, I think they have only made a handful of epoxy hulls and they were probably out-sourced.

OL: I'm not sure about their method.

roadtrip se
08-04-2009, 03:38 PM
I don't know enough details on how every manufacturer makes their stuff and the strengths and weaknesses of each method, but I think the big difference in an epoxy hull like Dragon Vs. Skater has to do with post curing.
Fountain is pretty much out of this game, I think they have only made a handful of epoxy hulls and they were probably out-sourced.
OL: I'm not sure about their method.

Post-curing is basically baking the boat for strength after the initial lay-up. The idea is to give more control over the curing process for more strength with more continuity with less weight.

Skater does it. They don't paint their bottoms.

Outerlimits does it. They don't paint their bottoms.

Fountain does it on occassion, particularily with their race boats. They did farm some production out six or seven years ago, but have done it all inhouse for the past several years. Oh, and they don't paint any of their bottoms, including the vinylester ones.

Not quite sure where you are going with the epoxy example, but performance boats don't come with painted bottoms, or at least with the exception of five or six dragons, they don't.

Could it be that paint doesn't benefit performance as discovered and supported by the industry as a whole?

gcarter
08-04-2009, 05:41 PM
One thing to keep in mind is epoxy boats, if kept in the sun, will deteorate very quickly.
They MUST have some sort of UV protection or it'll be a bunch of crap in a hurry.
Black does this better than most colors.
Or maybe silver followed the color of choice like they did with vintage fabric covered airplanes.

barrukis1
08-05-2009, 06:34 PM
I have always left our boats in freshwater (Lake George) for the season April - May thru Sept-Oct. Never had a problem with our Cobalt or STV - I do take them out and clean the bottoms and then put them back in - the donzi however does not like to be left in.

joseph m. hahnl
08-06-2009, 09:41 PM
Could it be that paint doesn't benefit performance as discovered and supported by the industry as a whole?


:clap::clap::clap::fam::clap::clap::clap:

gcarter
08-06-2009, 10:18 PM
So Todd, not to beat this dead horse, but according to System Three Epoxy's "Epoxy Book";


Epoxy surfaces may be coated either with opaque paints or finished
with clear varnishes. The epoxy surface accepts finishes like
any other non-porous surface except that it is chemically active
to certain materials because of unreacted amines on the surface
and throughout the epoxy matrix.
All outside epoxy surfaces exposed to sunlight must be protected
from degradation by the ultraviolet rays (UV) in sunlight. This is
the invisible short wave length portion of sunlight that causes
sunburn. The long-term effect of UV on unprotected epoxy is a
dulling of the clear fi lm, followed by chalking and, finally, film
cracking and delamination .
The initial effects of UV degradation on most epoxies start after
about six months of intense tropical sunlight on horizontal
surfaces.
Total breakdown will occur after about fifteen months under these same conditions.

So whether you call it "paint" or "UV protection barrier", there's gotta be "something" on the bottom of those boats you mentioned.

roadtrip se
08-07-2009, 09:52 AM
George, you just gave me an excuse to take a ride over to the LC Marine candy store and take a closer look at the bottom of a couple of these things. They normally have several examples of Skater and Outerlimits sitting inside. They are maybe, 30 minutes, from where I sit typing this out.

I am sure I will get a salesperson's attention when I start snapping picstures of the bottoms, so I'll test his knowledge of the build and lay-up schedules on epoxy boats while I'm at it.

Not a total waste of his time, he could be talking to the next powerball winner!

I'll keep you posted.

seano
08-07-2009, 02:23 PM
thanks all for the input and advice.

and george...please don't sell the testarossa... it provides inspiration to us all! :)

Magicallbill
08-09-2009, 03:41 AM
Hi All..
Just got back from Portage Lake,(my old 70's haunt.)
Jason and I had our 2 16's in the water for 2 weeks..pulled them out..I have multiple blisters, Jason has virtually none.
For those who don't know the boats, they are our 66 and 67 Ski Sporters, re-done and painted a few years ago..
Wish I had read this before vacation....

Oh, and had fun running with Gold-N-Rod, who brought his for sale 16 down too....

Pismo
08-09-2009, 06:33 AM
Hi All..
Just got back from Portage Lake,(my old 70's haunt.)
Jason and I had our 2 16's in the water for 2 weeks..pulled them out..I have multiple blisters, Jason has virtually none.
For those who don't know the boats, they are our 66 and 67 Ski Sporters, re-done and painted a few years ago..
Wish I had read this before vacation....

Oh, and had fun running with Gold-N-Rod, who brought his for sale 16 down too....

What is the difference that made one blister and not the other?

Magicallbill
08-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Hi Pismo.
I don't know..
They were painted in the same booth by the same company(Skater.)
Maybe the guy who painted mine was pissed at his girlfriend that particular day and blew thru the job..