ARP rocker studs????? HELP!!!

[SilverBack]

Buiz, Fix, Mop and any of you other gear heads... I have had two arp rocker studs fail. The geometry has been checked and the pushrods are the right length. I just can't believe that I got a bad batch of rocker studs from ARP. Do you think that David Wade could have over tightened them at some point and stressed them out?? I am going to relace them all with pro series ARP studs but I am not even running that much spring pressure. what gives??

[BUIZILLA]

pic of break area would help....

geometry or spring float coil bind is usual culprit

[Carl C]

Could they be fatiqued? Can you install a stud girdle?

[SilverBack]

I am going to get some pictures this time for sure!! I thought that it was a fluke last time and did not investigate that much. I was only turning around 3500 rpm the first time. I was turning 5300 this time but with my spring pressure I just can't believe that I need a girdle. I am just about ready to go to Jesel rockers at this point!!!

[mrfixxall]

Buiz, Fix, Mop and any of you other gear heads... I have had two arp rocker studs fail. The geometry has been checked and the pushrods are the right length. I just can't believe that I got a bad batch of rocker studs from ARP. Do you think that David Wade could have over tightened them at some point and stressed them out?? I am going to relace them all with pro series ARP studs but I am not even running that much spring pressure. what gives??


if you keep having problems then you need to switch them to jessel shaft rockers,,no more problems end of story,:) BTW they swing 360deg and no binding..

http://jesel.com/index.php?categoryid=8

[SilverBack]

It looks like I am going to go with Jesel shaft rockers. Do you guys think that I should go with 1.8 or 1.7 ratio rockers? They make them for a direct bolt on for my AFR heads and I can set the lash and not worry about it if I go to a solid roller over the next year or two.

[BUIZILLA]

1.7 .......

[mrfixxall]

It looks like I am going to go with Jesel shaft rockers. Do you guys think that I should go with 1.8 or 1.7 ratio rockers? They make them for a direct bolt on for my AFR heads and I can set the lash and not worry about it if I go to a solid roller over the next year or two.

Like buz said 1.7,,,,,,the 1.8 are hard on the valve tips unless you run lash caps..
just make sure you loctite the torx head tapered bolts that bolt to the heads that the rocker shafts bolt to,,we hd a few come loose but yu wont be spinning 8500 rpm with 4 stages of nos like we do:biggrin.: Btw make sure they come with the shim kit that go under the rocer mounting plates to ensure correct rocker arm adjustment..jessel wants like 2 threads showing at the end of the nut..and when your done installing them engrave the rockers and rnd of the shafts and plates,#1 I #1 E if yu ever have to take them apart it makes it will save you time when you put it back together:)

[SilverBack]

I think that I am just about ready to take my hatch off and burn it! It is hard on a fat boy trying to do anything in this boat. Mark is snowed under and I decided to just get into it myself and get this thing fixed or at least pull the stud and send it to ARP to see what they think. Well..it is hard for a 6' 3" 320lb dude to get into that thing!!!:mad::mad:

[Last Real Texan]

I think that I am just about ready to take my hatch off and burn it! It is hard on a fat boy trying to do anything in this boat. Mark is snowed under and I decided to just get into it myself and get this thing fixed or at least pull the stud and send it to ARP to see what they think. Well..it is hard for a 6' 3" 320lb dude to get into that thing!!!:mad::mad:
Dude 6'3" and 320.....what the fock are you eating?

I am 6'6" and weigh 225...

Lose about 100 lbs and pick up 2-3 MPH....


sorry could'nt resist it....

I have a hard time in the hatch as well I'm just too long to get around in there as well..

All in good fun :wink::wink::wink:


Tex going back to stock after reading all of this....:kingme:

[SilverBack]

Dude 6'3" and 320.....what the fock are you eating?

I am 6'6" and weigh 225...

Lose about 100 lbs and pick up 2-3 MPH....


sorry could'nt resist it....

I have a hard time in the hatch as well I'm just too long to get around in there as well..

All in good fun :wink::wink::wink:


Tex going back to stock after reading all of this....:kingme:

I am just BIG BONED!!:kingme:

[mrfixxall]

I am just BIG BONED!!:kingme:


ok where is the stud braking? mid strean by yhe rocker or in the head? if its in the head what size are they? 7/16 or the 3/8 part that screws into the and 7/16 rocker style? if theit not 7/16 all the way through $hit can all of them and you need to drill retap the heads the the 7/16 rocker stud or youwil still have problems....

[SilverBack]

Fix...the studs are 7/16". They are breaking right below the poly lock. I think that they have been over torqued in the past and it took it's toll on them.

[mrfixxall]

Fix...the studs are 7/16". They are breaking right below the poly lock. I think that they have been over torqued in the past and it took it's toll on them.

If you dont want to go through all the bs on changing them to jessel then a stud girdal is the way to go but you have to change the poly locks and readjust the lifters to a taller one so the girdal can support them..that means taller valve covers too if you dont have them already:)

[BUIZILLA]

.....

[SilverBack]

Jim.....what do the dots mean??


I just ordered a new set of ARP studs from AFR. Mark says no need for a girdle or shaft rockers so no go on that.

[mrfixxall]

Jim.....what do the dots mean??


I just ordered a new set of ARP studs from AFR. Mark says no need for a girdle or shaft rockers so no go on that.


ive replaced several studs,anything in my eyes over .600 lift needs a stud girdal.. once installed never broke a stud again, its your call next time it could get wedged and cause a velve hang open and could cost you a motor..believe me they all flex under pressure and you will loose a little valve lift because of it....

[SilverBack]

ive replaced several studs,anything in my eyes over .600 lift needs a stud girdal.. once installed never broke a stud again, its your call next time it could get wedged and cause a velve hang open and could cost you a motor..believe me they all flex under pressure and you will loose a little valve lift because of it....

I agree...I have run them on most all of my other hi performance engines that had roller cams. Mark says that I do not need them so .......


I might have found some of the problem today. The AFR heads take a longer stud than other aluminum heads. This may be part of the problem. ARP told me today that they felt for sure that either I had the wrong stud and had one too short or had a counterfeit set of studs. I ordered a new set of ARP studs with the AFR part numbers today.

[mrfixxall]

I agree...I have run them on most all of my other hi performance engines that had roller cams. Mark says that I do not need them so .......


I might have found some of the problem today. The AFR heads take a longer stud than other aluminum heads. This may be part of the problem. ARP told me today that they felt for sure that either I had the wrong stud and had one too short or had a counterfeit set of studs. I ordered a new set of ARP studs with the AFR part numbers today.

longer stud? all its going to do is show more threads and less room for adjustment unless you change your push rods to keep the same rocker arm adjustment.a longer will also be weaker and brake easier with a longer pushrod..are your poly locks set screws deep into the polylocke when adjusted?

[SilverBack]

longer stud? all its going to do is show more threads and less room for adjustment unless you change your push rods to keep the same rocker arm adjustment.a longer will also be weaker and brake easier with a longer pushrod..are your poly locks set screws deep into the polylocke when adjusted?


ARP thinks that there was not enough stud up in the poly lock. They think that there needs to be more threads in the poly lock. The rocker will be in the same place. This is not a fix really ..it is just the stud that is called for by the manufacturer. I don't know for sure that the same exact one is not already on the engine. It was just a big deal when calling and ordering that the AFR heads take longer studs.

[mrfixxall]

ARP thinks that there was not enough stud up in the poly lock. They think that there needs to be more threads in the poly lock. The rocker will be in the same place. This is not a fix really ..it is just the stud that is called for by the manufacturer. I don't know for sure that the same exact one is not already on the engine. It was just a big deal when calling and ordering that the AFR heads take longer studs.


just courous,,whos rockers are you using now?

[SilverBack]

Scorpion.

[Rootsy]

I'd be checking retainer to valve guide clearance.... ASAP

[SilverBack]

I'd be checking retainer to valve guide clearance.... ASAP

I ordered a whole new set of ARP studs from AFR yesterday. Everything has been checked and rechecked but we are going to check everything again when we go back with the new studs. Everything looks fine and there are no other hurt parts so the general consensus is that the poly locks were over torqued at some point.

BTW..ARP went as far as saying that if we broke two studs and we have not broken anything else that the studs must be counterfeit. They were great about things and did offer to replace any broken parts sight unseen but I wanted to change the whole set and not just the broken one so I ordered a new set of studs.

[BigGrizzly]

Try putting a rev kit on it. In ordeer to be over torqued someone would have to over torque them by 40 LBS, highly unlikely. You have lifter bounce. If you go to 1.8 you will really have an issue, been there done that.

[BUIZILLA]

..... means to pay attention

[SilverBack]

..... means to pay attention


Tell me one more time....I always pay attention to you...what are you talking about....:confused::wink:

[SilverBack]

Here are a few pictures...I pulled the wrong side first.

[SilverBack]

a few more.

[mrfixxall]

Yep! you need longer studs,set screw is deep in the hole and the hex part of the poly lock is to close to the rocker..is their any marks on the inside of the rocker where the poly lock could have rubbed on it? also check the push rod to make sure its not bent.. i like comp cams poly locks,their a little taller and have a 9/16 head.. i notice your not running head studes but head bolts instead,, as a side note with alunimum heads ans the sc i usually like to use head studs to ensure proper torque:)

[SilverBack]

Yep! you need longer studs,set screw is deep in the hole and the hex part of the poly lock is to close to the rocker..is their any marks on the inside of the rocker where the poly lock could have rubbed on it? also check the push rod to make sure its not bent.. i like comp cams poly locks,their a little taller and have a 9/16 head.. i notice your not running head studes but head bolts instead,, as a side note with alunimum heads ans the sc i usually like to use head studs to ensure proper torque:)


I am with you on the head studs. I have run studs on all of my other engines. I also agree that the studs are not long enough. The rockers have no marks that I have found. I am taking the boat to Mark tomorrow and let the professionals do the work. I was just too curious to not get one of the valve covers pulled.

[MOP]

Curiosity got me I thought the studs broke at the head, is it that they let go in the adjusters?

[SilverBack]

Curiosity got me I thought the studs broke at the head, is it that they let go in the adjusters?


Phil..sorry it took so long to get back with you. I have been running this afternoon. New Orleans and back home.


The stud broke at the lock not at the head. I took some pictures. I talked to ARP and it seems that the "ARP" stud that I have might be a counterfeit. The other one in the pictures is one that Mark had that is a "real" ARP.

[BUIZILLA]

there's a clue in every pic.... especially 287 and 288..

[SilverBack]

I sent all of the pictures to ARP and Mark pulled another rocker arm and there is no stamp on the end of it. I found the answer....these are NOT ARP studs. They are some cheap Chinese crap that DWM must have forgotten to switch back when they were trying to steal my valve train. Man...this is unbelievable!!!! :mad:

[mrfixxall]

I sent all of the pictures to ARP and Mark pulled another rocker arm and there is no stamp on the end of it. I found the answer....these are NOT ARP studs. They are some cheap Chinese crap that DWM must have forgotten to switch back when they were trying to steal my valve train. Man...this is unbelievable!!!! :mad:


If you look at the broken stud look under the threads on the non tapped serface..look at the silver line going around the stud,you have a rocker arm clearance issue on the bottom of the rocker arm rubbing on the stud:) got a pic of the bottom of the rockers?

[SilverBack]

If you look at the broken stud look under the threads on the non tapped serface..look at the silver line going around the stud,you have a rocker arm clearance issue on the bottom of the rocker arm rubbing on the stud:) got a pic of the bottom of the rockers?

I don't have any pictures but we did notice that the broken stud is thicker in that section than the real ARP stud. I will get some tomorrow or the next day when all of the work gets done. This really sucks!!

[mrfixxall]

I don't have any pictures but we did notice that the broken stud is thicker in that section than the real ARP stud. I will get some tomorrow or the next day when all of the work gets done. This really sucks!!

if theirs still a issue you can always massage the area thats giving you trouble..

[BUIZILLA]

there's a clue in every pic.... especially 287 and 288..


If you look at the broken stud look under the threads on the non tapped serface..look at the silver line going around the stud,you have a rocker arm clearance issue on the bottom of the rocker arm rubbing on the stud:) got a pic of the bottom of the rockers? BINGO !.... also pay attention to the lower thread shank that shouldn't be there.... they will never torque in the head correctly UNLESS the thread bore is undercut or relieved so the tapered shank won't interfere with the threads itself..

now, were the ARP rocker studs on your DWM invoice?

[SilverBack]

BINGO !.... also pay attention to the lower thread shank that shouldn't be there.... they will never torque in the head correctly UNLESS the thread bore is undercut or relieved so the tapered shank won't interfere with the threads itself..

now, were the ARP rocker studs on your DWM invoice?

They were on my Womack Racing Engine invoice. I know that it sounds crazy but David did some part changing and when I told him that I had Womack was coming to check and make sure that all of my stuff was still there and to check the cam..he stalled until the next day..(Jim do you remember when I called and talked to you about the cam problem and how things just didn't make sense???) (Mark and I talked and the engine pulled much more vacuum and sounded stock (like stock 502 MPI) one day..and did not make any power..David took the engine back to BR...nothing was supposed to have changed I talked to Jim (Buiz) and then told David that I was sending WRE to check the engine...It was checked by WRE and when the engine went back to Mark to go back on the dyno....magic...less vacuum...the engine sounded like a 500 EFI again and it made another 140 HP) Well all that we can figure is that he put everything back except for the studs(that we know off:crossfing:) Mark heard it and noticed the vacuum at the time. His employee noticed it and when they asked me about a cam change I told them it was the same one....Mark got me to listen to the engine over the phone. It was like a whole different engine.....the only thing we can not figure is...why steal some rocker studs.....that is the cheapest thing on the engine.....:confused::confused::mad::confused::con fused: .....maybe he did this on purpose (like a time bomb) because I was calling him out and accusing him of stealing stuff by then....he was stealing the stuff that I donated to D.net and he stole several of my parts in the end. I had no idea that he would have stolen parts out of my actual engine though....

[The Hedgehog]

That sucks.

I guess that a question I would have is, do you feel comfortable leaning on that boat at speeds of 100+ when you don't really know what you have under your hatch? You have busted him on the ECU, cam and now head bolts. What is to say you don't have a stock crank and rods trying to hold up with 930 hp? Hell, maybe he took your whole setup and swapped it with some 502 laying around.

The time to figure out that was some time ago, but I would probably not want to wait any longer.

[SilverBack]

That sucks.

I guess that a question I would have is, do you feel comfortable leaning on that boat at speeds of 100+ when you don't really know what you have under your hatch? You have busted him on the ECU, cam and now head bolts. What is to say you don't have a stock crank and rods trying to hold up with 930 hp? Hell, maybe he took your whole setup and swapped it with some 502 laying around.

The time to figure out that was some time ago, but I would probably not want to wait any longer.


It is really not all that bad...The head bolts are ARP...The pan came off to fix the 5 gallons of oil in the engine thing. We just missed the rocker stud switcharoo. It does suck don't get me wrong. The original springs and retainers and rockers are all there. If it was stock crank or rods I think that it would have given up a long time ago anyway. I know that he never took my heads or block. The heads have clear stampings on them and I made a note to check them out at every point. I think that he simply tried to steal my valve train. I think that when he knew that I had WRE coming the next day to check out the engine and make sure that nothing had been changed he simply put everything back. Now..did he leave the rocker studs to goof me up or did he just forget them. They are a very cheap part......I don't think that we will ever know.


I have not talked to Mark yet but now that I have the boat handleing so good...I may go ahead and put the 698 in the boat this winter. Of coarse if I do that I will need an Arneson or SCX upper. I don't know if I want to spend that money in this economy! Maybe I will just get Mark to go through the motor that is already in the boat.

[mrfixxall]

Arneson or SCX upper,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,or a hammerhead! :)

[SilverBack]

What is a Hammer head?

[SilverBack]

Fix, your promised you wouldn't tell Keith about that.. :nilly: :nilly: :bonk:


Hey..Poodle...:mad:.....I know that I am NOT in the Clique ....but...I have been getting along very well with Todd lately.....can't I know any of you guys secret stuff??


Fix...I am very disappointed!!!!! I thought that you were one of us common folk all of this time......I guess that you must be another blue blood in the Clique from the way this sounds....:angel:

[SilverBack]

He's a blue dog member Keith.. ;) :D :D

I am very surprised that you Elite Clique members go for a blue dog faction!!:shark: What is a HammerHead??? Is that a cut down Alpha or something??:confused::cool:

[Sweet Cheekz]

if theirs still a issue you can always massage the area thats giving you trouble..

I do this all the time :shades:

[mrfixxall]

You never heard of a hammerhead? OMG!!! and i thought you were up to par on all the new technology :kingme:












































































































DA !!!! HAMMERHEAD.........................http://www.weismann.net/Press%20Pages/2008/WeismannDuoProp.htm

[SilverBack]

You never heard of a hammerhead? OMG!!! and i thought you were up to par on all the new technology :kingme:












































































































DA !!!! HAMMERHEAD.........................http://www.weismann.net/Press%20Pages/2008/WeismannDuoProp.htm


Nice!!

[SilverBack]

From the boys who brought you the #6 drive...


I have seen their other surface drive but I don't think that I have ever seen this one.

Now that I am getting the correct rocker studs maybe I can enjoy my boat the way it is for a while!!!:bonk:

[SilverBack]

Oh no no no Keith, we are SO not done spending your money yet....:eek::kingme::nilly:

What money?? It is all gone!!:eek: