Bravo XR Concerns

[Carl C]

Well I got the new Bravo XR upper on the boat along with the rebuilt Imco lower. I got out for a little break in running this evening. This drive has a harsh clunk when going into gear. Is that a normal difference between the X and XR? Also the finned bearing cap on my old Bravo 1X used to stay fairly cool. The smooth cap on the new XR got pretty hot today. I could hold my hand on it but it was really hot even while submerged and I didn't run very hard today. Is that normal? I was so concerned that I drained the oil and pulled the upper shifter cover. Everything looks OK. I filled it until oil came out the upper vent then installed the vent plug and continued pumping until the reservoir was at the correct level so I think I did that right. Do you guys think I am OK?

[gcarter]

XR's are straight cut gears, right?
Then they'll be noisy.
No personal experience w/XR's, but that's the nature of straight gears.

[MOP]

Though not the same my Bravo Diesel X ran fairly warm for the first few hours, I think it is normal. The gears have to run in, even your lower gears probably need a little time. Anytime a drive comes apart it needs to make new wear patterns on the gears! A new or rebuilt drive should have its oil changed after ten hours!

[SilverBack]

Carl...from what I have been told the XR with it's straight cut gears has more drag than the gears in the other drives. More friction would make more heat. I think most XR's shift a little harder than a stock Bravo. I have heard several people say that it has enough friction that the change over slowed them down a couple MPH.

[VetteLT193]

straight cut gears are noisier and clunkier. as for heat: I'm not sure but Silverback's assessment seems logical.

[roadtrip se]

Carl,

If it bangs slightly when going into gear, that is normal. I don't waste a lot of time shifting the boat, and that seems to help. Get her in and get her out, don't drag the throttle handle.

If it pings, meaning much louder and sharper, you may want to check and/or replace the shift cable. When I say ping, others notice it while you are in the marina. Been there. This can be caused by a loose connection or slack from a stretched cable.

The heat is normal for these drives. You can get the vented cap for these things kind of like what you had, but then you are going to have to deal with it on the steering install, because the fins are much taller than on the stock drive. I wouldn't bother.

You will also notice the hum of the gears at speed. I lost one mph when I made the conversion.

[Carl C]

Thanks for the input. I'll hit the small lake again today for some more break in. The clunk is just a bad clunk going into gear. It sounds like it's going to tear things up when I have to bump it in and out of gear to dock. The old drive shifted much smoother.

[Dr. Dan]

:angel:Carl....my Pantera has an XR and Morgan installed an integrated Cap/Drive Shower on it...prior to that he had issues. No issues now at all.

I'll try to get a pic of the unit...for you.

Doc :wink:

[mattyboy]

the unit dan is refering to is the actual drive cap( not a cap that attaches to the existing cap) it replaces the stock cap and it has passages that cool the bearing in the cap . Morgan showed me the old stock one low hours almost brand new fried like zeppoli .

Morgan swore by the new cooling cap and Dan is putting just a little over "stock" hp in that drive .

[SilverBack]

Hedge Hog runs one of those caps. It is made of Billet and it is stronger than a stock cap also. It is a nice piece.

I think it is something like this.

http://www.westcoastoffshore.ca/BILLET-BRAVO-TOP-CAP-P829.aspx

[The Hedgehog]

Hedge Hog runs one of those caps. It is made of Billet and it is stronger than a stock cap also. It is a nice piece.

I think it is something like this.

http://www.westcoastoffshore.ca/BILLET-BRAVO-TOP-CAP-P829.aspx

Billet Marine!

It is a good piece.

[SilverBack]

Carl...here is a link if you want to spend some more money!


http://www.billetmarine.com/Our%20Products.htm

[Carl C]

I will look into those. Getting ready to head out now. Hopefully all goes well.:crossfing:

[BigGrizzly]

Actually the straight cut gears have less friction this is why they use them in race bikes,cars and drives The spiral bevel gears used in TRS have more surface area and cause drag, but are also stronger. Volvo uses straight cut too this is one reason you can run left or right. As for heat it, it could be because of the imco and the lack of surface area. My Konrad is big in the gear area and it runs cool to the touch. I just think it is characteristic of the beast. BTW the TRS was cool too. Seems to me that all the XRs run a little hot, of course I only play with high HP applications.

[SilverBack]

Grizz ...if that is true it goes against everything that IMCO and everyone else that is supposed to know has told me. They all say that the XR gears have more drag and generate more heat.

[Carl C]

All went well today. I broke in the drive and proceeded to run a 82.5 :) (w/mufflers). It doesn't seem to be getting quite as hot and the clunk not as bad. Might have been a little paranoia on my part. I'll get her out for a good run on the big lakes next week.

[Planetwarmer]

How did the boat handle getting up to 82.5? Any quarks at a certain speed? Was it a handful? Is there any more speed left?

[Lenny]

Carl, fix your signature line to reflect the XR ;)

nice

[Carl C]

How did the boat handle getting up to 82.5? Any quarks at a certain speed? Was it a handful? Is there any more speed left?

No quirks. I hear the mufflers scrub 2 mph and since today was hot & humid, I'd say there is more speed there. Today 82.5 was all she had though.


Carl, fix your signature line to reflect the XR ;)

nice

...and speed....

[mrfixxall]

Carl, fix your signature line to reflect the XR ;)

niceP.S. AND NO HYDROLIC STEERING:biggrin.:

[Carl C]

P.S. AND NO HYDROLIC STEERING:biggrin.:

Off season to do list:

Zeiger full dual ram hydraulic steering
Billet battery boxes
Get all gauges working
Mirror under hatch
Install new drive cap or shower

This season to do list:

Enjoy the boat :)

[BUIZILLA]

do the shower NOW

[Trueser]

Off season to do list:

Zeiger full dual ram hydraulic steering
Billet battery boxes
Get all gauges working
Mirror under hatch
Install new drive cap or shower

This season to do list:

Enjoy the boat :)

Mirror up under the forward deck?

How much did the mufflers help?

Nice numbers. What about the break in?

[Planetwarmer]

I noticed that you didn't mention the stripper pole and mirror ball. Is that already installed?

[Carl C]

do the shower NOW

What kind? I already have a hole for the pick-up in the Imco anti-cavitation plate so it will need to work with that.


Mirror up under the forward deck?

How much did the mufflers help?

Nice numbers. What about the break in?

Don't give me any more ideas. The mufflers are too quiet. I will take them off for the big lakes. If I can find some good water on Lake St. Clair away from the channels (current) I will try to set a new personal best top speed. I ran the boat a little last night and about an hour today before doing some speed runs. I think she's broke in and hopefully this drive will last a while. I'm really happy with the boat. At this time, not counting repairs, just up-grades, I have over $87,000 into my little hot-rod boat.

[mrfixxall]

$87,000 into my little hot-rod boat!

thats like having 10 sweet sixteens:wink:

[Trueser]

[quote=Carl C;525579]What kind? I already have a hole for the pick-up in the Imco anti-cavitation plate so it will need to work with that.

I like the rex marine low profile pickup myself.

[Carl C]

[quote=Carl C;525579]What kind? I already have a hole for the pick-up in the Imco anti-cavitation plate so it will need to work with that.

I like the rex marine low profile pickup myself.

I'll look into it.

[SilverBack]

Carl...if you have the IMCO lower you may want to just tap into the water passage on your upper for your drive shower. It works great and that is what IMCO used to do when they used that case. The faster you go the more water it forces into the shower. It also keeps you from having too much water pressure. You can look at some of the pictures of my drive to see where to tap into it.

[Carl C]

Carl...if you have the IMCO lower you may want to just tap into the water passage on your upper for your drive shower. It works great and that is what IMCO used to do when they used that case. The faster you go the more water it forces into the shower. It also keeps you from having too much water pressure. You can look at some of the pictures of my drive to see where to tap into it.

I'd like to see that. Are the pics posted here somewhere?

[SilverBack]

I think that they should be in my 25 ZX thread.

You just thread in an elbow and run a hose up to the cap or shower. It reall is not much to it. You could call Rick at IMCO and I am sure that he can tell you or sell you what you need. It is really not much at all to do it but the way the IMCO shorty is made it forces water into the pickup instead of it being sucked up and it has enough capacity to handle the shower and cool a normally aspirated engine.

[Carl C]

I think that they should be in my 25 ZX thread.

You just thread in an elbow and run a hose up to the cap or shower. It reall is not much to it. You could call Rick at IMCO and I am sure that he can tell you or sell you what you need. It is really not much at all to do it but the way the IMCO shorty is made it forces water into the pickup instead of it being sucked up and it has enough capacity to handle the shower and cool a normally aspirated engine.

OK, there does seem to be more than enough water there and I won't need to drag another pick-up.

[BigGrizzly]

All of out race stuff has straight cut stuff. It is a common upgrade in motorcycles on clutch drives and out put shafts. The fact that spiral bevel gears are made in set for noise,etc. Timing chains are converted to straight cut gears for speed and to cut Hp loss. As for heat this is a slight down side. Pluss it isw cheaper to make. Next all the Bravos are straight cut, or they can run in reverse for long. The other funny part is when I called Imco years ago about converting they told me exactly the opposite they told you. If they were better and faster don't you think merc would use them? But then Merc is in deep financial trouble and prone to do stupid things. Believe what you want. Ine other thing the XR drive runs too little oil to cool it properly. All the cooler running drives run much more oil then the Bravos. My Konrad runs 5 quarts, the Trs ran 4 quarts. So you figure it out. Maybe it is a design flaw.

[MOP]

To Quote Mr. SilverBack!!!!!!!!!!!! I think that they should be in my 25 ZX thread. Wrong!

After spending about 35 minutes with a fast connection and looking from front to back the pictures of the drive are to vague to make out any shower stuff.

Phil

[Carl C]

Griz, you are right about the oil capacity. It didn't take much to fill it. The first time out I was afraid I didn't get it full so I drained it and refilled it. It is the gears that failed in the old Bravo. It's hard to see in there but there are some teeth nearly gone and one cone clutch is cocked at an angle. Funny thing is it was still running strong and I thought I had a linkage problem. I almost stayed out awhile but decided to head in. It's a good thing.

Silverback, could you post a pic of your shower set-up when you get a chance?

[BigGrizzly]

Thanks Carl, I never though ugh you were not careful. I know better then that. Just talking about gears. I have dropped lowers too, once because I did not listen to what the drive said to me. Thad oil capacity really bothers me, especially with the stress involved. Of course the drive is not rated for that power either.

[SilverBack]

Thanks Carl, I never though ugh you were not careful. I know better then that. Just talking about gears. I have dropped lowers too, once because I did not listen to what the drive said to me. Thad oil capacity really bothers me, especially with the stress involved. Of course the drive is not rated for that power either.

I can't find any good pictures right now but here are a couple. Look at the X on the side of the drive. There is a pipe plug right beside it. I don't have it run that way right now because I run a really big intercooler and I run the extra water through it.

I think that you have to use an elbow and some sort of check valve to run it that way.

[SilverBack]

Carl..this is not going to be a good thing for you to do...I just read that it will void your Mercury warranty if you tap into the water passage.

[MOP]

Carl..this is not going to be a good thing for you to do...I just read that it will void your Mercury warranty if you tap into the water passage.

Bummer it is a great idea! But does Carl still have a warranty with the swapped lower and the HP going through it?

[SilverBack]

Bummer it is a great idea! But does Carl still have a warranty with the swapped lower and the HP going through it?


I think that the XR is rated to run behind a 525.

[Pismo]

I noticed that you didn't mention the stripper pole and mirror ball. Is that already installed?

Now you're talking....

[Carl C]

What warranty? No warranty that I'm aware of; These are old style XRs. Gavin Marine is selling them brand new for $3,300 on OSO. And, yes, the 525 comes with the XR.

[BigGrizzly]

Carl, Been talking to several people and they all agree that a shower will help, most swing to Hedge's type. There is one guy who made one that showers down the sides of the case- a pipe with a bunch of holes. However, no one thinks it has enough oil capacity. That coupled with no pump as in a Volvo, leads to hot spots. The truth is I personally have not done any real tests on the XR, so I am relating others information. According to some the XR is better but still falls short of what it is suppose to be. The good news is that Garry thinks that if you don't hammer it all the time it will last just fine in that application. His drive has lived foe a long time with that 850 small block with the same torque as HP. So just drive it and enjoy it. If it goes south - things happen.

[SilverBack]

Carl, Been talking to several people and they all agree that a shower will help, most swing to Hedge's type. There is one guy who made one that showers down the sides of the case- a pipe with a bunch of holes. However, no one thinks it has enough oil capacity. That coupled with no pump as in a Volvo, leads to hot spots. The truth is I personally have not done any real tests on the XR, so I am relating others information. According to some the XR is better but still falls short of what it is suppose to be. The good news is that Garry thinks that if you don't hammer it all the time it will last just fine in that application. His drive has lived foe a long time with that 850 small block with the same torque as HP. So just drive it and enjoy it. If it goes south - things happen.


Grizz....we all know that the XR is not the strongest drive in the world. I think Carl has a 525. Let me see...lets recap who uses what type of drive and has had pretty good luck with them here on this site.

Over 100 MPH....Hedge....Mr.X.....Me and two of these are over 850 HP and heavier boats and one has over 700 RPM and turns more RPMs than Carl's engine.

I think everybody that runs in the 90's runs XR drives also. I don't know of many that have blown XR drives this year this year. However, I know that there are members here that have had XR drives give up.

On the other hand we all know that our drives could blow at any time with the power we are putting through them. Anything mechanical can break...even a beautiful..wonderful...amazing...KONRAD!!:wink:

I think if he is careful when he leaves and re-enters the water and is not hard on it taking off he will be fine. :yes:

[BigGrizzly]

Keith we all know that your boat ia 100 Mph and Teds has broken 100 once, and his old boat broke 103 several times with the imco. Hedg is just waiting for it to come apart and your days are numbered. RT has broken one and I see them every day broken. As for the wonderful Konrad yes it will break, eventually. We were talking XR's here. Now, Have you ever rebuilt a drive? I have. Now Do I think the Konrad is a better option, since YOU brought it up, YES. Now back to the real topic of this thread XR concerns- heat mainly heat.:shocking::bonk:

[roadtrip se]

and have enjoyed very good life out of them, five+ years out of the first one.

Yes, I did gernade one, but I can trace it back to piercing a log into a thousand pieces, that had the force to take me off plane. Gero was behind me at the time and said it looked like a shower of water and lumber on impact. No drive will live through that. It took awhile to manifest itself, but I think I cracked some gears that day and then my problems began.

I never did anything other than change oil in that drive over 200+ hours. No shavings, no funky colored oil, and no problems. The new stuff is all XR, again.

Heat. I tested a SIMREK shower on the boat and it scrubbed speed in testing. A lot of it could have had to do with the extreme trim I ran with the big three blades to optimize my performance.

Again, I ran the old XR 200+ hours without a drive shower and zero problems. None. And when I say run, I mean RUN.

Now, I am going to try a shower again that is designed for the wingplate on the Latham and see what happens. It will be and on and off testing affair, just like the last time. For obvious reasons, I am not a fan of drive showers, but we shall see yet again.

[Carl C]

Thanks guys. I will be installing some type of shower ASAP since this thing gets hotter than the Bravo X did. However, I already have a cruise to Put-In-Bay planned for tomorrow (conditions permitting) so wish me luck.

[Air 22]

Heat. I tested a SIMREK shower on the boat and it scrubbed speed in testing. A lot of it could have had to do with the extreme trim I ran with the big three blades to optimized my performance.


Operator error....:kingme: :pimp:

[Air 22]

Thanks guys. I will be installing some type of shower ASAP since this thing gets hotter than the Bravo X did. However, I already have a cruise to Put-In-Bay planned for tomorrow (conditions permitting) so wish me luck.

Keep in mind some drive showers will not work with Hydraulic Steering...ck b4 u buy...:wink:

[Carl C]

Keep in mind some drive showers will not work with Hydraulic Steering...ck b4 u buy...:wink:

k, I'll sort it out.

[blackhawk]

Carl, this is the one I use. I plumbed mine into the sea water pump but if there is a water passage on the XR it would probably work pretty slick.

http://www.innovativemarine.net/1050.html

[MOP]

Very rare do drive showers come accompanied by the scrubbing of some speed, our raw water systems provide more water then we can use. Tap off just after the pump to feed one of those super nice caps, IMO it also eliminates the chances of clogging a shower pickup.

[blackhawk]

Very rare do drive showers come accompanied by the scrubbing of some speed, our raw water systems provide more water then we can use. Tap off just after the pump to feed one of those super nice caps, IMO it also eliminates the chances of clogging a shower pickup.

Exactly what I did. Besides clogging it also avoids low pressure from varying speeds and trim angles. :D

[SilverBack]

One trick that I saw on the Hering website is to use an external pickup and use all the water coming from the drive to spray on the cap and sides of the drive. They said that the major amount of cooling came from the water flowing through the passages in the drive coming up from the pickup. The passages are just like cooling passages in an engine. The more water that flows though the drive the more it cools it. On the same turn when running water through an intercooler it is cooler when coming from an external pickup that does not transfer heat into the water before it hits your pump.

[roadtrip se]

Very rare do drive showers come accompanied by the scrubbing of some speed,

Let me add to your comment MOP, it is becoming more common to see a Bravo/IMCO shortie combo on Classics. Since Carl is running the exact same combo that I am now, that "rare" thingy might manifest itself a little more readily.

Dwight, as for that "OE" part, this is why we all carry cameras on our boats, now isn't it? No pride, no glory, and don't even think about digging around in your bilge with this gang around, and not expect it to be documented right here. Second fav? Visits with the local law enforcement. :boggled::bighug::yes:

[Air 22]

Dwight, as for that "OE" part, this is why we all carry cameras on our boats, now isn't it? No pride, no glory, and don't even think about digging around in your bilge with this gang around, and not expect it to be documented right here. Second fav? Visits with the local law enforcement. :boggled::bighug::yes:


Uhhmmm...U need bail$$?..I went to school with the local LG Sheriff if that's your question? and yes he will pull a fav or 2:kingme:...but if the "Flowerpot" is involved....its gonna cost ya.. :nilly: :):bighug: :wink:

[Pismo]

Plumb it into the existing water passage in the drive. Existing drive coolers today are barbaric.

[Carl C]

Plumb it into the existing water passage in the drive. Existing drive coolers today are barbaric.

OK, there is a lot of good info here that I'll need to sort through. Right now I am finally enjoying the boat. Didn't do PIB because of thunderstorms but still had a lot of fun on Lake St. Clair. Going to try for PIB again wednesday. (Put-In-Bay)

[gcarter]

One trick that I saw on the Hering website is to use an external pickup and use all the water coming from the drive to spray on the cap and sides of the drive. They said that the major amount of cooling came from the water flowing through the passages in the drive coming up from the pickup. The passages are just like cooling passages in an engine. The more water that flows though the drive the more it cools it. On the same turn when running water through an intercooler it is cooler when coming from an external pickup that does not transfer heat into the water before it hits your pump.
I agree w/this.

[Pismo]

One trick that I saw on the Hering website is to use an external pickup and use all the water coming from the drive to spray on the cap and sides of the drive. They said that the major amount of cooling came from the water flowing through the passages in the drive coming up from the pickup. The passages are just like cooling passages in an engine. The more water that flows though the drive the more it cools it. On the same turn when running water through an intercooler it is cooler when coming from an external pickup that does not transfer heat into the water before it hits your pump.

I agree you would need a second water pickup someplace. Tapping into the side of the drive to get at the flow would just suck air with the water pump further upstream. The drive flowing thru the water would create enough pressure on it's own to pump enough drive only cooling water but you need a second input for the engine which is a pain.

[Carl C]

One trick that I saw on the Hering website is to use an external pickup and use all the water coming from the drive to spray on the cap and sides of the drive. They said that the major amount of cooling came from the water flowing through the passages in the drive coming up from the pickup. The passages are just like cooling passages in an engine. The more water that flows though the drive the more it cools it. On the same turn when running water through an intercooler it is cooler when coming from an external pickup that does not transfer heat into the water before it hits your pump.


I agree w/this.


I agree you would need a second water pickup someplace. Tapping into the side of the drive to get at the flow would just suck air with the water pump further upstream. The drive flowing thru the water would create enough pressure on it's own to pump enough drive only cooling water but you need a second input for the engine which is a pain.

The Imco lower has a huge water inlet which would pass masive quantities of water. Since I need to add a sea strainer anyway I'm think of getting one with an additional outlet for a drive shower.

[Pismo]

The Imco lower has a huge water inlet which would pass masive quantities of water. Since I need to add a sea strainer anyway I'm think of getting one with an additional outlet for a drive shower.

Great idea....

[BigGrizzly]

You can actually put on a transom pickup and not use a pump. at speed there will be a good amount of pressure. If you get an adjustable one then you can regulate the drive shower pressure which will relate to volume to a point. I have seen these pickups go higher then 75psi.