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BigGrizzly
07-06-2009, 06:12 PM
Well thanks to Jefe and family the Criterion Lives again. This puppy has given me a little issues in engine building and installation. I decided to change things tor ease of working on,just in case I had to. With the engine I went to a different size blower and inter cooler to try to run regular fuel instead of 93 octane. The bigger stuff would be cooler charge thus eliminating the need of retarded timing and drop HP at 5 psi of boost. Well every thing was cooler but not enough to achieve my true goal. However that being said the engine does use 28 pounds of fuel less then the previous engine at WFO. Now this is a rebuild not an engine change, everything is the same as before except the blower. The engine is within 12 hp of the previous engine. The real problen I ordered a 5psi unit and got it with a 2 psi pulley on it. To make a long story short They even when given all the numbers Procharger has different numbers and wanted me to use a pop off valve. Well with Garry this is not an acceptable way to do this engine in the boat, especially since I did not have an issue before with the M1, which is now for sale. So we ordered all the pulleys and some different belts. When we put on the one that Garry figured the numbers on, it all fell into place with some carb tuning. Great drivabilty here we come. It is within 12 hp of the old engine . This is Garry's thing. So is simple not stupid. Now that is out of the way now enter relocation of blower power steering pump so I can adjust the belts with crawling under the engine, where the pump was located on 1980 models. I used a new pump - it was on sale at Summit Racing and Crome. Well, it looks like the old one but the hose end does not fit and it is too close to the block on the starbord side where I wanted to mount it because the procharger takes up the room on the port side. Down to the hydraulic shop for fittings. they do not exist. So Ilooked around and saw an older gentleman. I walked over and asked if he had any ideas. He said if your a machinist I think I can Help. Yes I replied. 20 minutes I am out the door with a custom hose and some fittings for $94 and a smile. Made the stuff and it fit. However when running it leaked so we fixed it with yet another made to order piece. A few other issues. We crank the engine and it starts and Idles. Remember the Konrad Just bolted one with NO ISSUES and thatdid not change when bolting in the engine. Off to the lake
This time, at the lake everything is good. Full tank of fuel Andrew and Jefe, off we go to break in the drive and finish the engine break in. I am using the same prop as the TRS had on it. Well, this is a different boat with the Konrad, all better.:yes: So we are cruising and relearning the trim and quicker handling, YES quicker. And maybe even more positive too. Trimming is big time different. It is going to take me more time to learn it. Well I am informed that barb is sitting at the dock and wants to see here engine and drive. Hard left homeward bound. Well I rolled the throttle on and the Jetted up in a real hurry right to 82 before I could pull off the throttle. this surprised me to the point I did not even look at the gauges, a big no no in my book, especially with a new engine. At this point we know that everything is different for the better with NO negitives. Pick Barb up, after the traditional new engine fly by. She says engine sounds better and the trim was good- no wake yad a da etc. Trying to give ne the stuff I usually ask about. Out we go again. 50 gallons of fuel and about650 pounds of people. Ok here are some facts. At 3200 rpms the cruse is 2.3 mph faster, same prop heaver out drive, Konrad. I did not believe this so I kept trying to prove it again and again, it is correct. In the end my MPG of use went down.With a couple of quick spurts of 82 MPH It is obvious that I need to go up in pitch of the prop. It really accelerates hard. Now the bad news I have not given it full throttle for more then 2 seconds so I have no Idea how fast it is. That will come in a few hours of Konrad break in. I can not say anything about ride since we only have an hour of run time, but i do think it is better. At this point this is all i have to relay to you. I will say that JEFE said " I GOT TO GET ME ONE OF THESE". Gary thinks the engine has nothing to do with the cruise he says it is the drive. The engine is too close to the old one to make that difference.

SilverBack
07-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Sounds good Grizz!! That Konrad is going to be a great addition to the Criter!!

The Hedgehog
07-06-2009, 07:16 PM
Cool.

That is one bad ass Critter. All the way around.

No, ATI does not know their own pulley's at all. Been there and still have a stack of them.

Lenny
07-06-2009, 07:49 PM
NICE POST :yes:

Congrats you two... :D

gcarter
07-06-2009, 07:59 PM
Griz, I'm a little envious!

Good luck w/all the bits and pieces!

HOWARD O
07-06-2009, 09:19 PM
VERY good to hear! That Konrad sounds like the stuff! :yes:

Team Jefe
07-06-2009, 11:14 PM
No Joke...this thing is for real, I have been contemplating several Donzi Classics for my next boat.....No more.

Supercharged Critter is the only way to go.


That being said we still had a blast in the Corsican too:kingme:

Ghost
07-06-2009, 11:28 PM
Sounds awesome. Now we need some pics underway...

BigGrizzly
07-07-2009, 01:06 AM
Thanks everyone. Pictures will be coming soon. Jef thanks for the compliment and more the help you gave me, not to mention the cooking. The added support and drive made it happen. Thanks again. No matter how bad you feel when the "Jefe" arrives it seams to just float away. I can't wait until it is broken in. and I can prop it, now the right prop guy, OH that s me:shades:

Kirbyvv
07-07-2009, 09:07 AM
Nice, still waiting for a ride in an 80+mph bow rider!!!!

BigGrizzly
07-07-2009, 11:52 AM
Kirby, you and Jay are at top of my list, trust me on this, you guys are on my cool list.

mrfixxall
07-07-2009, 12:16 PM
Thanks everyone. Pictures will be coming soon. Jef thanks for the compliment and more the help you gave me, not to mention the cooking. The added support and drive made it happen. Thanks again. No matter how bad you feel when the "Jefe" arrives it seams to just float away. I can't wait until it is broken in. and I can prop it, now the right prop guy, OH that s me:shades:


Want to try a maximus:biggrin.: Glad to see you got the ole beast running Grizz:)

roadtrip se
07-07-2009, 12:20 PM
The Critter is ready for Eufala...

The Ilmor is ready for Eufala...

I hear a certain X-18 might be ready for Eufala...

Who's not ready for Eufala? Oh, that would be me...

Working on it!

Congrats Grizz...

MR MAGOO
07-07-2009, 02:00 PM
Glad all has worked out Griz! Sounds like the Criterion hull really responded well to the increased prop shaft height of the Konrad!

mikev
07-08-2009, 04:10 PM
Sounds awesome glad I finally made it up and met you Barb and jefe (cool suprise) hopefully we can all get together soon.

Lenny
07-08-2009, 04:59 PM
Now, I'm off to find a new <damnitmanIamsofreekingenvious> emoticon :D ;)


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/RevenantTheory/Emoticons/Enthralled.gif

BigGrizzly
07-08-2009, 06:59 PM
Well, Kurt, It was a wise investment and if our little anti Konrad guy shows, we have real data and real information to stick where the Exlax should work. Got a little more seat time today before the rain, it is just getting better. Can't wait for 10 hours to be up 2 down and 8 to go. It is the First time I have a stronger out drive then an engine:yes: and an effortless install too.:yes::yes::yes:
Mike V showed up and wanted to stay and help, but we kicked him out to enjoy the weekend just before Barb came in and made us quit for the day. Really a nice guy just like he is on the net.

SilverBack
07-08-2009, 07:03 PM
Grizz...how much higher is the Konrad than the TRS that you took off? Does the M-3 spool up as fast as the M-1 did? What are you shooting for on your top speed?

BigGrizzly
07-08-2009, 07:49 PM
First the high is suppose to be 1.7 inches higher then the TRS, but it is a tad higher, nothing significant. As for the spool up that is the the M1 is faster. Really nothing has changed much HP is about the same as is everything else. This was never about power or speed. If I wanted to really go fast I would drop in the 900 and have done. As for speed I am shooting for 150 on a good day with 5 people and full fuel in the Gulf. Smooth lakes are for pansies:lookaroun:

The Hedgehog
07-08-2009, 09:27 PM
DAMMMNNNNN, Grizzly used a smiley :eek: :eek:

Priceless and well put.

My hat is off to Grizz. He does it right and has fun. All the right reasons. I have a few pics of Grizz and Barbara bouncing around on Cumberland. They don't need any captions.

700 hp in a Critter with a Bullet proof combo. I just don't see it getting any better than that. That is the combo of a lifetime!:pimp: I ponder interesting Donzi combos all the time and have yet to come up with a better idea.

gero1
07-09-2009, 07:07 AM
i wanna ride grizz!!!! dont have a clue where we are going but at 150 who the h cares

BigGrizzly
07-09-2009, 01:07 PM
Gero1, It would be my pleasure. If I mis the turn who the heck would care, even if I did not know wher I was but I was having fun. Gero1 knows I even lost my battery:yes::yes::yes:(private joke). As for the Combo My wife let me have it and it only cost me some Top Siders a blouse and Ear Rings, Kurt helped too, so did Merc by putting that Bravo cutaway across the isle from the Konrad booth at Miami.:bonk: It is truly the package I wanted. Did I tell you that it is a really good looking unit as well as functional.

tmdog
07-09-2009, 05:17 PM
The looks of that Konrad hanging off the Citter's backside was truly impressive. Randy, I wish you all the luck in the world with your endeavors. I'll catch up with you on the lake.:biggrin:

VetteLT193
07-09-2009, 08:44 PM
Holy moly, post some pictures already. I've been patiently waiting. What do I have to do, drag a boat up to GA to see this bad boy in action on my own? :wink:

BigGrizzly
08-09-2009, 11:02 AM
OK here is the final evaluation of this total project, Pictures to follow. A recap of the operation. I had pulled the motor to refresh it because it had over 800 hours on it. NOT to up the power. I changed the supercharger from an M1 to an M3 because I wanted a bigger intercooler to try to get the same boost with a cooler air charge so I could conceivably run 87 or 89 octane instead of 93. then I desided to put the Konrad to add durability to the package. My TRS had just been redone and had 5 hours on it and was still breaking it in. replacing it now gave me a reliable unit I could sell with no worries about it breaking. So The Konrad arrived and bolted on effortlessly, it was too easy almost. One real day start to finish with no help. It took me really two half days. Now the engine. we went through it replaced all the usual stuff and the rockers to for good measure and all the valves with new ones. Now after we got the blower working with the same boost as the M1, no good help from Procharger. Garry took it upon him self with numbers generated on the dyno, to pick the right pulley( I wonder if he ever makes a mistake). We got the engine dialed in with about the same Hp as before, maybe 3 to 5 more as the numbers state. However it used 28 lbs less fuel at WFO then the M1 combo. Sounds good so far. However the 87-89 octane thing did not work as expected. It really did not want it safely with a cushion. Strangely on the dyno it seemed to use the same amount of fuel at 3700 rpms, even with a slightly cooler air charge. Also remember the last time the engine was dynoed was 8 years ago. Conditions with air density etc. was closely the same. So this part with the new procharger, was a good experiment but did not work as I expected and I consider a wast of time and money.
Now the real deal in the boat. The Konrad is about 50 lbs heavier, due to its strength of internal gears and external case- much stronger. The prop shaft is about 2 inches higher then the TRS. the prop is in exactly the position bow to stern. Point here is my old TRS had a nose cone and so does the Konrad, but shorter. On the water with the same prop things changed. Cruise was higher and fuel consumption was down, insignificantly. Top speed consumption was the same. due to higher RPMs of the prop. HANDLING was quicker and more precise, I did not expect this to be that big a difference. Now I had to up the pitch of the prop. TOP speed is actually 3+ mph higher, and I am still learning to drive it. Trim is different big time, due to pump speed and drive height etc. Now something different. I am testing a new OXP 4 blade prop and it is re writing the book on 3 Vs 4 blade speed thing. More on that as soon as I figure it out. It should not work like this but it does. Kind of like my Volvo prop it should not work but it does and does well. Back to handling. This drive is Bigger heavier and stronger and should have more internal drag, but after break in (I did not push it during this period)the engine does not know it. Acceleration is quicker and I never throw the handle to the stop, but it is still quicker. It handles better at speed and docks differently, still like a boat but different then the old TRS. At this point I can not find a down side, it is all good.
To sum this project up in total the drive was worth it and I would do it again in a heart beat. Rebuilding the engine was a good idea before it rebuilt itself. Changing the M1 to an M3 was a wast of time and money. Now to qualify that part of this. If I were going to go to 8.5 Psi of boost, which I am not, the M3 is a better choice then the M1, because the M3 does not have to work so hard to do it. Just so you know when i first built this in 2000 it had over 800 ponies. we dropped boost and Hp down to just under 700 for durability reasons. the M1 can do it, but it gets real fragile up there and at this point it is a bad idea. So ladies and gentlemen this is the project. If there are any questions I will answer all but the true top speed of the boat. I still go 86 mph. is the boat truely faster-yes. Hopefully pictures will follow, if I can get time. To end the boat feels truly awesome, but I will say I am prejudice.

The Hedgehog
08-09-2009, 11:38 AM
OK here is the final evaluation of this total project, Pictures to follow. A recap of the operation. I had pulled the motor to refresh it because it had over 800 hours on it. NOT to up the power. I changed the supercharger from an M1 to an M3 because I wanted a bigger intercooler to try to get the same boost with a cooler air charge so I could conceivably run 87 or 89 octane instead of 93. then I desided to put the Konrad to add durability to the package. My TRS had just been redone and had 5 hours on it and was still breaking it in. replacing it now gave me a reliable unit I could sell with no worries about it breaking. So The Konrad arrived and bolted on effortlessly, it was too easy almost. One real day start to finish with no help. It took me really two half days. Now the engine. we went through it replaced all the usual stuff and the rockers to for good measure and all the valves with new ones. Now after we got the blower working with the same boost as the M1, no good help from Procharger. Garry took it upon him self with numbers generated on the dyno, to pick the right pulley( I wonder if he ever makes a mistake). We got the engine dialed in with about the same Hp as before, maybe 3 to 5 more as the numbers state. However it used 28 lbs less fuel at WFO then the M1 combo. Sounds good so far. However the 87-89 octane thing did not work as expected. It really did not want it safely with a cushion. Strangely on the dyno it seemed to use the same amount of fuel at 3700 rpms, even with a slightly cooler air charge. Also remember the last time the engine was dynoed was 8 years ago. Conditions with air density etc. was closely the same. So this part with the new procharger, was a good experiment but did not work as I expected and I consider a wast of time and money.
Now the real deal in the boat. The Konrad is about 50 lbs heavier, due to its strength of internal gears and external case- much stronger. The prop shaft is about 2 inches higher then the TRS. the prop is in exactly the position bow to stern. Point here is my old TRS had a nose cone and so does the Konrad, but shorter. On the water with the same prop things changed. Cruise was higher and fuel consumption was down, insignificantly. Top speed consumption was the same. due to higher RPMs of the prop. HANDLING was quicker and more precise, I did not expect this to be that big a difference. Now I had to up the pitch of the prop. TOP speed is actually 3+ mph higher, and I am still learning to drive it. Trim is different big time, due to pump speed and drive height etc. Now something different. I am testing a new OXP 4 blade prop and it is re writing the book on 3 Vs 4 blade speed thing. More on that as soon as I figure it out. It should not work like this but it does. Kind of like my Volvo prop it should not work but it does and does well. Back to handling. This drive is Bigger heavier and stronger and should have more internal drag, but after break in (I did not push it during this period)the engine does not know it. Acceleration is quicker and I never throw the handle to the stop, but it is still quicker. It handles better at speed and docks differently, still like a boat but different then the old TRS. At this point I can not find a down side, it is all good.
To sum this project up in total the drive was worth it and I would do it again in a heart beat. Rebuilding the engine was a good idea before it rebuilt itself. Changing the M1 to an M3 was a wast of time and money. Now to qualify that part of this. If I were going to go to 8.5 Psi of boost, which I am not, the M3 is a better choice then the M1, because the M3 does not have to work so hard to do it. Just so you know when i first built this in 2000 it had over 800 ponies. we dropped boost and Hp down to just under 700 for durability reasons. the M1 can do it, but it gets real fragile up there and at this point it is a bad idea. So ladies and gentlemen this is the project. If there are any questions I will answer all but the true top speed of the boat. I still go 86 mph. is the boat truely faster-yes. Hopefully pictures will follow, if I can get time. To end the boat feels truly awesome, but I will say I am prejudice.

That is some great info. I am glad it all worked out.

The whole M-1 vs the M-3 surprises me too but you don't know until you try it.

What were your intake air temps on the M-1 vs the M-3?

SilverBack
08-09-2009, 12:14 PM
OK here is the final evaluation of this total project, Pictures to follow. A recap of the operation. I had pulled the motor to refresh it because it had over 800 hours on it. NOT to up the power. I changed the supercharger from an M1 to an M3 because I wanted a bigger intercooler to try to get the same boost with a cooler air charge so I could conceivably run 87 or 89 octane instead of 93. then I desided to put the Konrad to add durability to the package. My TRS had just been redone and had 5 hours on it and was still breaking it in. replacing it now gave me a reliable unit I could sell with no worries about it breaking. So The Konrad arrived and bolted on effortlessly, it was too easy almost. One real day start to finish with no help. It took me really two half days. Now the engine. we went through it replaced all the usual stuff and the rockers to for good measure and all the valves with new ones. Now after we got the blower working with the same boost as the M1, no good help from Procharger. Garry took it upon him self with numbers generated on the dyno, to pick the right pulley( I wonder if he ever makes a mistake). We got the engine dialed in with about the same Hp as before, maybe 3 to 5 more as the numbers state. However it used 28 lbs less fuel at WFO then the M1 combo. Sounds good so far. However the 87-89 octane thing did not work as expected. It really did not want it safely with a cushion. Strangely on the dyno it seemed to use the same amount of fuel at 3700 rpms, even with a slightly cooler air charge. Also remember the last time the engine was dynoed was 8 years ago. Conditions with air density etc. was closely the same. So this part with the new procharger, was a good experiment but did not work as I expected and I consider a wast of time and money.
Now the real deal in the boat. The Konrad is about 50 lbs heavier, due to its strength of internal gears and external case- much stronger. The prop shaft is about 2 inches higher then the TRS. the prop is in exactly the position bow to stern. Point here is my old TRS had a nose cone and so does the Konrad, but shorter. On the water with the same prop things changed. Cruise was higher and fuel consumption was down, insignificantly. Top speed consumption was the same. due to higher RPMs of the prop. HANDLING was quicker and more precise, I did not expect this to be that big a difference. Now I had to up the pitch of the prop. TOP speed is actually 3+ mph higher, and I am still learning to drive it. Trim is different big time, due to pump speed and drive height etc. Now something different. I am testing a new OXP 4 blade prop and it is re writing the book on 3 Vs 4 blade speed thing. More on that as soon as I figure it out. It should not work like this but it does. Kind of like my Volvo prop it should not work but it does and does well. Back to handling. This drive is Bigger heavier and stronger and should have more internal drag, but after break in (I did not push it during this period)the engine does not know it. Acceleration is quicker and I never throw the handle to the stop, but it is still quicker. It handles better at speed and docks differently, still like a boat but different then the old TRS. At this point I can not find a down side, it is all good.
To sum this project up in total the drive was worth it and I would do it again in a heart beat. Rebuilding the engine was a good idea before it rebuilt itself. Changing the M1 to an M3 was a wast of time and money. Now to qualify that part of this. If I were going to go to 8.5 Psi of boost, which I am not, the M3 is a better choice then the M1, because the M3 does not have to work so hard to do it. Just so you know when i first built this in 2000 it had over 800 ponies. we dropped boost and Hp down to just under 700 for durability reasons. the M1 can do it, but it gets real fragile up there and at this point it is a bad idea. So ladies and gentlemen this is the project. If there are any questions I will answer all but the true top speed of the boat. I still go 86 mph. is the boat truely faster-yes. Hopefully pictures will follow, if I can get time. To end the boat feels truly awesome, but I will say I am prejudice.


That sounds great Grizz...I am glad that you did not run into too many snags!! That is never too much fun. I have heard the same thing that you found here on the M-1 to M-3 comparisons at lower boost. I have actually been told that the M-1 is better below 5 psi and that 5 psi is about the breaking point when the M-3 starts to do a little better. At least you did not loose any ground on that front.


Are you saying that you are having better luck with a higher pitch 4 blade? Have you tried your 5 blade?

You say that you have picked up 3 - 4 MPH..was that with a 3 blade or 4 blade?

Anyway...congratulations on the whole project!!

BigGrizzly
08-09-2009, 06:52 PM
I picked up three with the old 3 blade TXP. This was done so there was not any other changes then the drive. The 4 blade is a different pitch and blade diameter. It has a much higher cruise and top speed as of today is higher yet. Hedg as for the air temp it was 4 degrees higher with the M1 set up. What is weird is everything seems to have a 4 degree differential. When the pipe was changed with the black hose that was also 4 degrees. I am looking at the notes and I didn't take temps with the black verses the black M1 hose. I changed it before testing. As for when the boost of the M3 Vs the M1 it is actually 7.5 psi then the M3 has the real advantage. it is big all of a sudden. Both my units are pressure fed right after the oil cooler. This is a good thing so internal temperatures are different then the self contained. This may influence the M1 Vs M3 boost that other see. I don't know this. I can only comment on my engine.

The Hedgehog
08-09-2009, 07:52 PM
I picked up three with the old 3 blade TXP. This was done so there was not any other changes then the drive. The 4 blade is a different pitch and blade diameter. It has a much higher cruise and top speed as of today is higher yet. Hedg as for the air temp it was 4 degrees higher with the M1 set up. What is weird is everything seems to have a 4 degree differential. When the pipe was changed with the black hose that was also 4 degrees. I am looking at the notes and I didn't take temps with the black verses the black M1 hose. I changed it before testing. As for when the boost of the M3 Vs the M1 it is actually 7.5 psi then the M3 has the real advantage. it is big all of a sudden. Both my units are pressure fed right after the oil cooler. This is a good thing so internal temperatures are different then the self contained. This may influence the M1 Vs M3 boost that other see. I don't know this. I can only comment on my engine.

Wow, 4 degrees. That is not much. I would have thought more than that.

Actually, I am starting to thing that pound for pound, the M1 is a better blower. At least for lower boost applications.

I heard that they don't clank around as much either.

BigGrizzly
08-10-2009, 10:10 AM
as for the clanking that is only at idle at speed with a load there just a little quieter. In the skeem of things the 4 degrees doesn't mean much in real hp. Since ambient and water temps affect it more. We set ours up for 70 to 75 water temp degrees because that is what my lake runs unless its mid July then it is 80 in the shallows. All this is why my closed cooling system is so important to my durability. On the dyno we run the temps a little warmer then the closed system for a buffer in a bad situation. I always feel it takes too long to get it right until it is over then I am always glad we did it this way. I don't know if I will sell the M1 unless someone comes up with the dollars, I won't take a low ball for it. its a great spear. Especially I have all the numbers it is an easy swap back.

Sweet Cheekz
08-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Smooth lakes are for pansies:lookaroun:


Amen to that Brother!
Project sounds great Can't wait to run next to you at AOTH 2010
Parnell

MR MAGOO
08-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Thanks for the follow up Randy!

Glad you are pleased with the Konrad package!:kingme:

Kurt

BigGrizzly
08-10-2009, 11:35 AM
Parnell, I don't think you have ever been on a soothe lake.:yes::yes: Yes this was a fun thing for me, time consuming but fun. I learned a lot. My problem is I always compare old with new. There is always some good to come out of it. If only I knew 30 years ago what I do now, Life would have been much cheaper, MAYBE.

Sweet Cheekz
08-10-2009, 11:42 AM
Randy I don't even like smooth lakes! I also wish I knew then what I do now but how come I keep investing in these ridiculous machines? Look forward to seeing it
Parnell

BigGrizzly
08-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Kurt, You told me for several years but at that time I was pigeoned holed on the original set up which worked for a while so I put it off. When the wife decided to go for it It was a done deal. It is a great setup. Feel free to use me as a support referral. Trust me I know my boat from stem to stern and this was a real UP GRADE.:yes:

Parnell, you do it because that is who you are, and I am glad we are friends. Your ideas are invigorating and innovating. You have a good team