Frozen Boost saga - The cooler

[The Hedgehog]

I just got back from Eddie's. The cooler has been installed. Eddie did a nice job of some custom fab work. I learned that it is pretty hard to mock up the plumbing without the blower. I was not surprised. I ordered a few bends just in case I got lucky. Eddie was able to locate the cooler on the other side of the compartment and we are going to get away with using no 90's and all 45 angles. That should make for much more efficient boost.

I must say that I am pretty impressed with the cooler. Especially considering what I paid for it. It should move air more efficiently than the 504 and will flow MUCH more water. It has 70 more CU of cooling capacity and the water inlet and outlet is 1/2" as opposed to 3/8. Sure it would have been easier to pay Bell to cut open the 504 and put it back. But that would have not been much of an adventure. I also really wanted to more the cooler to the firewall to open up the front of the engine. This was a great excuse.

Will it pay off in the long run? Time will tell but so far I like it.

I will try to get a few pics in the am.

Off to order some more silicone bends.

[BlownCrewCab]

I'm in Lenexa right now (leaving in a few hours) I Saw some of the Procharger dudes at lunch yesterday, Our Plant is about a mile from theirs...

[BigGrizzly]

This could be fun.

[The Hedgehog]

Here are some pics. It will really open the front of the engine.

Ok, so it is dirty and the old hatch ram is going away.

[The Hedgehog]

Roger preparing to rig the HVAC disaster!:yes:

[mrfixxall]

Hedge,where does the water dump out after the cooler..port straboard?

[The Hedgehog]

Hedge,where does the water dump out after the cooler..port straboard?

Right over the drive. I would prefer to see it but I already had one there.

I use the drive pickup to feed the cooler and the deep water to feed the engine. I use a water pressure gauge for the block

[MOP]

Not paying one iota of attention about the naked toes looking at the wet feed lines, are they as small as they look????

[The Hedgehog]

Not paying one iota of attention about the naked toes looking at the wet feed lines, are they as small as they look????

No they are the big ones. Much bigger than standard 504 stuff. They look small next to the 3.5" inlet and outlet. Used high flow 90's as well vs the ATI hard 90's.

Tex switched to high flow 90's too and could see a pretty big difference in flow.

Sorry about the toes. I don't like climbing around the interior in shoes.

[mrfixxall]

Right over the drive. I would prefer to see it but I already had one there.
I use the drive pickup to feed the cooler and the deep water to feed the engine. I use a water pressure gauge for the block


Bingo:wink: i rest my case and suggestions..

[BigGrizzly]

Now turn that thing sideways so water drain can be used durinf inclement weather IE freeze. I picked up boost switching hose to tube and got rid of the ugly Procharger hose , which , BTW retains heat

[SilverBack]

Looking good Bill...That setup is pretty nice for the money isn't it???!! I think that you are going to love it.

[The Hedgehog]

Now turn that thing sideways so water drain can be used durinf inclement weather IE freeze. I picked up boost switching hose to tube and got rid of the ugly Procharger hose , which , BTW retains heat

Good call on the hose. I am kicking around some of those ideas too.

Now get rid of those hard 90's and give it some full flow bends on the water inlet and outlet. You will flow much more water at a nominal cost.

I was concerned about the water drain issue. My only solution will be to blow out the water with an air hose and drop in some antifreeze. I figure that a nice long winter soak with rust inhibitors won't hurt.

[The Hedgehog]

Here is the install with the hoses. I guess if Grizz is "The Plumber" then I am the "HVAC guy on acid!":pimp:

I had another solution that was prettier and hid all the hose but it had more bends. We should get a good flow this way.

I will try to get a few more pics when the sun is not beating down.

[mrfixxall]

I just got back from Eddie's. The cooler has been installed. Eddie did a nice job of some custom fab work. I learned that it is pretty hard to mock up the plumbing without the blower. I was not surprised. I ordered a few bends just in case I got lucky. Eddie was able to locate the cooler on the other side of the compartment and we are going to get away with using no 90's and all 45 angles. That should make for much more efficient boost.
I must say that I am pretty impressed with the cooler. Especially considering what I paid for it. It should move air more efficiently than the 504 and will flow MUCH more water. It has 70 more CU of cooling capacity and the water inlet and outlet is 1/2" as opposed to 3/8. Sure it would have been easier to pay Bell to cut open the 504 and put it back. But that would have not been much of an adventure. I also really wanted to more the cooler to the firewall to open up the front of the engine. This was a great excuse.
Will it pay off in the long run? Time will tell but so far I like it.
I will try to get a few pics in the am.
Off to order some more silicone bends.

Hedge! autozone has the silicone bends..hey i have another idea! call me.

[BigGrizzly]

You are not going to believe this but on my engine we started messing with pipes Vs the black Pro charge hose, and heat goes down, just a tad BUT flow goes up and the silicon 90 is not as bad as the rubber one because there is a sharp internal inconsistent bend that cause , Dam it I for get, but not good. Now here is a weird one. The 180 aluminum bend is cooler and faster then the Rubber 90. Now for something I have wondered about. In a test we found that 6 feet of aluminum tubing, with some bends and connectors only raises the temperature to the intake by 4 degrees, and boost is not really affected, ti the intake. All this after I made a really neat looking set of pipes. The good part is my fancy one did not fit but the other ones did and are actually neater. Now for the Antifrize thing that is a good Idea because the new freeze is made for aluminum and has some really good inhibitors.

[BUIZILLA]

i'm having a hard time believing all these numbers vs ANY value at such low boost/volume levels...

to me, anything under .8 bar is low boost.... I ran 52-56# of boost in my '97 Dodge/Cummins for over 3 years on a daily driver/tower... now were' talking science.. :cool: a guy around the corner from me currently runs 105-110# boost in his late model Dodge/Cummins.. I think we know a little about volume/airspeed..

a lot of this low boost rhetoric is assumption, wet dreams, one upmanship, and offshoot vectoring

i'm also having a hard time figuring out how you guys are measuring air quality flow of an alum bend vs an identical silicone bend on identical radii without any internal velocity/volume probes, camera's, heat imaging, or photo digitizing... the ONLY way the temp will change is the alum will retain some minor heat after longgggggg pulls, not intermediate 5-10 second blasts... 4* ain't sh1t in the grand scheme of things.. there should be more concern over inside diameter vs heat rejection vs flow vs volume lag on a given compressor blade design efficiency... are we talking single stage or dual stage compressor wheels here?

:shark:

[SilverBack]

i'm having a hard time believing all these numbers vs ANY value at such low boost/volume levels...

to me, anything under .8 bar is low boost.... I ran 52-56# of boost in my '97 Dodge/Cummins for over 3 years on a daily driver/tower... now were' talking science.. :cool: a guy around the corner from me currently runs 105-110# boost in his late model Dodge/Cummins.. I think we know a little about volume/airspeed..

a lot of this low boost rhetoric is assumption, wet dreams, one upmanship, and offshoot vectoring

i'm also having a hard time figuring out how you guys are measuring air quality flow of an alum bend vs an identical silicone bend on identical radii without any internal velocity/volume probes, camera's, heat imaging, or photo digitizing... the ONLY way the temp will change is the alum will retain some minor heat after longgggggg pulls, not intermediate 5-10 second blasts... 4* ain't sh1t in the grand scheme of things.. there should be more concern over inside diameter vs heat rejection vs flow vs volume lag on a given compressor blade design efficiency... are we talking single stage or dual stage compressor wheels here?

:shark:



Thanks!! I was wondering the same stuff! We need to keep in mind that 10 psi is nothing in the bigger scheme of things. I would be interested in how all of these test were conducted though!

[The Hedgehog]

You are not going to believe this but on my engine we started messing with pipes Vs the black Pro charge hose, and heat goes down, just a tad BUT flow goes up and the silicon 90 is not as bad as the rubber one because there is a sharp internal inconsistent bend that cause , Dam it I for get, but not good. Now here is a weird one. The 180 aluminum bend is cooler and faster then the Rubber 90. Now for something I have wondered about. In a test we found that 6 feet of aluminum tubing, with some bends and connectors only raises the temperature to the intake by 4 degrees, and boost is not really affected, ti the intake. All this after I made a really neat looking set of pipes. The good part is my fancy one did not fit but the other ones did and are actually neater. Now for the Antifrize thing that is a good Idea because the new freeze is made for aluminum and has some really good inhibitors.

My bends are silicone but I am liking the all aluminum idea. Coincidentally Eddie and I have been talking about doing that too for better flow and a better look.

Going to enjoy the boat for a bit but the cool bends are going to happen this fall.

[BigGrizzly]

Like you we have flow meters and boost meters. Just Let me say I was not talking silicon but Procharger's rubber hose which is anything but smoothe and the bends are actually not radius well. Their 180 is actuall 2 90s with a short straight as opposed to a sweeping bend. Like I said not much but there is a difference.

[BigGrizzly]

The max Cfm on the M3 I beleive is 1650 cfm. we never got that high.

[The Hedgehog]

What's maximum CFM on a Procharger, say an M3?

Grizz is pretty close. Max on a M-3 SC is 1700. Max on the non-SC is 2,200

Neither of us is pushing it that high.

[SilverBack]

OK, so just how much are you pushing? I'm trying to figure out how I can easily move 1600 CFM @ 125PSI through 2" hose and you guys are wondering if 3" tubing is large enough for your application...


I will admit that I have never broken out the flow meters and all but I just went for more cooling core. My IAT's are low and everything works well and it was pretty cheap in the bigger scheme of things. I am sure that no one is having any trouble pushing 1200 cfm at 9 psi through a 3.5 " hose. The little blowers I think use a 3 inch hose but I am sure that they are still ok.

[SilverBack]

I don't know what carburetor Grizz is using but the HP 500 and the 502 MAG throttle bodies will not flow over 1200 CFM anyway. I know that under pressure they will do a little more but we are all fine with our setups I am sure.

[BigGrizzly]

And the question was? The CFM. Now figure out the boost pressure and then the heat generated. which is where I was coming from and the heat generated after the bends. I was just giving information. It was NOT up for discussion. You guys have this aimless discussion, I am going to do something important and have dinner.

[The Hedgehog]

OK, so just how much are you pushing? I'm trying to figure out how I can easily move 1600 CFM @ 125PSI through 2" hose and you guys are wondering if 3" tubing is large enough for your application...

I am not really that sophisticated. I have studied up a little on pressure drop enough to know that smoother bends like Randy has is better. I am not really trying to wring any more out of my boat but if I can pickup efficiency at a nominal cost I will do it.

[BUIZILLA]

And the question was? The CFM. Now figure out the boost pressure and then the heat generated. which is where I was coming from and the heat generated after the bends. I was just giving information. It was NOT up for discussion. You guys have this aimless discussion, I am going to do something important and have dinner.actually, I think fuzzy has a GREAT question... with that said Grizz, and with all respect, why bring ANYTHING up if it's not out there for discussion?
my question, then, is this... at 7# boost, and 1600 cfm, what EXACTLY is the amount of heat generated? I have no clue, so that's why i'm asking...
and, how is extra heat being generated AFTER a bend? is the air hotter at compressor discharge or engine butterfly intake?

[BigGrizzly]

Well Buiz My tube increased about 14 degrees between the blower and the hat with the procharger set up and my tubes were 10.5 degrees. There was no measurable pressure drop in MY System.Buiz, As for the discussion I am tired of the banter that some put out. As you know I don't pull this stuff out of the air. I know what I know and this is not from what I read on some site somewhere.

[The Hedgehog]

I don't know what Randy knows. That is why I am doing some of this. This summer Tex and I will do some intake air temp testing as well as recording pressure drops. We will data log exact numbers from the ECU at different boost and power levels. We will also log pre cooler and after cooler levels.

The easiest route I could have taken would have been to have Bell redo my 504 and slap it back on. Now how much would I have learned from that?

I am just a guy that is out trying to learn something. So far most of my stuff seems to work. Do I bat 1,000? No. Who does while they are learning?

Laugh at me if you like but I have picked up on a few things and know a bunch more than I did when I slapped on a stock 502 kit on my 27ZX years ago. I have also has a good time learning along the way. I can afford to simply pay Eddie for one of his turn key recipes but how much fun would that have been? Frankly it would have been easier for both of us. I am glad I have done the things I have done.

I must say that talking to folks like some of you and working with Eddie has been a great experience. He has been patient and taken the time to teach me a few things. He invites me over to the dyno to watch him tune. I did a bunch of my frozen boost stuff myself. He took the time to call me on the lake Sunday to offer some congrads and follow up on my project.

[SilverBack]

Well Buiz My tube increased about 14 degrees between the blower and the hat with the procharger set up and my tubes were 10.5 degrees. There was no measurable pressure drop in MY System.Buiz, As for the discussion I am tired of the banter that some put out. As you know I don't pull this stuff out of the air. I know what I know and this is not from what I read on some site somewhere.


I don't see how the air is hotter at the hat than the blower:confused:. Do you have your inter cooler hooked up? Are you running any water through it? The temp should drop on the output side of the inter cooler. I also don't understand why the air would increase as the air makes its way through your tubing. If the bends are causing friction and therefore making back pressure....the pressure should be felt back at the blower and the heat should be generated where the air is compressed. You would think that you would have a pressure drop at the restrictions and if anything you would see a drop in temp along with the drop in pressure at those points. Maybe I am confused but these are very interesting results. I would not have expected to see. I don't think that it matters but Randy..don't you run a 3 inch hose and 5 psi of boost? I think the M-1 and M-2 run smaller hose and have a smaller outlet. Isn't the M-2 basically an M-1 with a higher step up in the gear set. to run the rotor faster. I was looking at the ATI site and it looks like the M-2 runs faster to make its boost than any of the other ATI blowers. Maybe that is why you are seeing these higher temps. More RPM...More friction...More heat... This is some good information that you and Hedge are coming up with.



What ever the case....all I know is that everybody that is running the frozen boost inter cooler has a good looking set up and is running over 100 now!!:wink:

[BUIZILLA]

My tube increased about 14 degrees between the blower and the hat with the procharger set up and my tubes were 10.5 degrees. ya lost me...

[BigGrizzly]

OK here is what happens as the air travels through the tube in a compressed state it generates heat. That is the interesting thing that the aluminum tube either dissipates the heat and the rubber does not or the bends have a more conducive radius then the rubber. They have tested different lengths and bends and found temperature rises. Some are significant but most don't matter. Does this answer the question. To me this was the most interesting thing. Now the M3 is a 3.5 inch hose the M1 is a 3 inch. the intercoolers is the big difference. I have no idea on the M2 I have never seen oneWe do have a fair amount knowledge on the M1, especially on Carbed units and front verses side verses rear entry helmets. All the M# have 3.5 opening inter coolers and a 3 inch hat on the carb except for the dual carb hats which have a 3.5 entry. I use a 3 inch tube from the inter cooler so as not to creat a big vortex at the carb entry, which raises holy heck in jetting.
Hedg I am with you on the experimentation. This is the only way to fly. If I believed everything people said I would not have a closed cooling system on my boat and would not have won over 300 motorcycle road races. That is why they call it testing. I went with the M3 because it was tried and true. I did not want any other variables to come into play at this point. since I was doing a whole kit, but you already know that from out conversations. Experimentation is how you learn and progress. Is the new cooler any better I don't know but it is not any worse, thats for sure. Now if I want to go that rout in the future I know it works because of YOU. Nuff said.