Donzi is SOLD!

[VetteLT193]

... just got the news... anyone have the details??

[VetteLT193]

I hear a Donzi Cat is in the future... c'mon, someone's gotta have more details than me

[chappy]

:popcorn:

[VetteLT193]

you're killin' me 'Poodle

Throw us a friggen bone here :wink:

telllllllllll telllllll telllllll!!!!!

[SilverBack]

They are really missing their market!! Don't they know that Donzi people don't have anything to prove and do NOT want to go fast!! They just like to have fellowship with other Donzi owners....:wink::popcorn:

[mrfixxall]

I hear a Donzi Cat is in the future... c'mon, someone's gotta have more details than me


i saw mp drawing last year but im sworn to secreccccccccccccccc:)

[roadtrip se]

They are really missing their market!! Don't they know that Donzi people don't have anything to prove and do NOT want to go fast!! They just like to have fellowship with other Donzi owners....:wink::popcorn:

Get it right.

I did say I had nothing to prove.

I did say I enjoyed running with folks that I am familiar with at events.

I DID NOT say I did not want to go fast. And I don't think anybody else did either in response to your LOTO thread.

As for Donzi, plenty is going on there, and it appears to be good news, so far.

[SilverBack]

Get it right.

I did say I had nothing to prove.

I did say I enjoyed running with folks that I am familiar with at events.

I DID NOT say I did not want to go fast. And I don't think anybody else did either in response to your LOTO thread.

As for Donzi, plenty is going on there, and it appears to be good news, so far.

RTSE...I am just picking with you guys..it is all in fun...that was mostly for Hedge Hog..that is the line he always uses on me!! I don't believe it from either one of you for a second!! :kingme:

I am just a hick from Mississippi and I am just "oilfield trash". I have no idea about the mysteries that go on here that don't involve me. I do know that this last week I got better responses and more customer service than I ever have when dealing with Donzi Marine.....I think that things may be looking up. Other that that I have not a clue what is going on down there!!

[The Hedgehog]

RTSE...I am just picking with you guys..it is all in fun...that was mostly for Hedge Hog..that is the line he always uses on me!! I don't believe it from either one of you for a second!! :kingme:

I am just a hick from Mississippi and I am just "oilfield trash". I have no idea about the mysteries that go on here that don't involve me. I do know that this last week I got better responses and more customer service than I ever have when dealing with Donzi Marine.....I think that things may be looking up. Other that that I have not a clue what is going on down there!!

Too many sermons for you Keith. Does it always have to be a race:wink:

Tried to call earlier then the witching hour happened.

I am back on the dingy thread. Lots of good possibilities there.:pimp:

[Cuda]

Get it right.
I did say I had nothing to prove.
I did say I enjoyed running with folks that I am familiar with at events.
I DID NOT say I did not want to go fast. And I don't think anybody else did either in response to your LOTO thread.
As for Donzi, plenty is going on there, and it appears to be good news, so far.
Please enlighten us with your ubiqutous secret knowledge.

[Cuda]

I hear a Donzi Cat is in the future... c'mon, someone's gotta have more details than me


God I hope not. There is already enough boat buiding companies losing their collective azzes off building big cats. Surely someone at Donzi Marine can do the math. I'm not excited to see Donzi commit hari kari.

[Lenny]

I just hope it gets better for them... There is soo much stuff (other than Classics) out there that ROCK.

A small Company doing custom heritage CLASSICS could probably make a go of it...

Otherwise, time to spend some huge coin $$$$$$$$$$ and get some new tooling and molds done.

If nothing else, these "little boats" let people get into the mystique, the sound, and for a moment, the aura of Thunderboat Alley... 188th street...


I think they would be a seller for a very small Corp. :yes:

[zelatore]

I just hope it gets better for them... There is soo much stuff (other than Classics) out there that ROCK.

A small Company doing custom heritage CLASSICS could probably make a go of it...

Otherwise, time to spend some huge coin $$$$$$$$$$ and get some new tooling and molds done.

If nothing else, these "little boats" let people get into the mystique, the sound, and for a moment, the aura of Thunderboat Alley... 188th street...


I think they would be a seller for a very small Corp. :yes:

I'm not sure there's enough market to make just the small 'Classic' boats viable. Boutique builders sometimes make it work with low volume custom stuff, but perhaps we should ask the guys over at GrandCraft how that market looks these days.

For example, my local dealer has 2 Shelbys sitting on the lot. It's hard to find people willing to drop 50-60-70K+ on a 22' boat.
(one of these days I'm going to go over and make an offer contingent on the boat hitting his advertised 80+ mph...)

[BUIZILLA]

Grand Craft officially folded yesterday...

[RickSE]

Years ago my Dad and I were talking to one of the older Donzi reps at the Dealer show who commented that they, those who had history with the company, "wanted ownership of the company back". Although things were going well at the time they felt the current owner(s) were not interested in or passionate about the boats and were only in the market to build up the company and sell it off.

At times I've seen this but I don't think anyone can deny that the company has come a long way under the control of people like Lee K., Steve S., Josh N., Mario V., Mike C., Mike M., Nick M. & all the others. They continued to chip away when times were tough and seemed to prosper when times were good. It's just unfortunate for all that the industry had to crash as hard as it did.

If there is a change then I wish everyone the best.

The Donzi Cat goes way back, back to the Steve Simon era when they were in the ZRC development stages. It never came to light since there were so many other great ideas on the table.

[zelatore]

Grand Craft officially folded yesterday...

Exactly.

[Marlin275]

The boat market went to hell because of the financing issue.
Now all that is changing due to the Fed.

The Fed is weighing whether loans to people who buy speedboats and snowmobiles are as worthy of help as those to people who buy cars.

In late May, the Small Business Administration said that it would open one of its main lending programs to R.V. dealers.
Because the Fed has already agreed to finance S.B.A. loans, it may not be long before it is financing boats, snowmobiles, motorcycles and campers.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/business/economy/13fed.html?ref=business

[mrfixxall]

... just got the news... anyone have the details??


as of june 12th 2009 Donzi marine was sold to a boca raton fl based copany in which has nothing to with the boat building industry as far as i found out..
they do own other major copanys to support the new donzi boats that we will be seeing in the near future like the new cat boats that mp posted.

thats all i know!:)

[fasttrucker]

I wanta cat boat!.............meow!:nilly::crossfing:

[The Hedgehog]

The boat market went to hell because of the financing issue.
Now all that is changing due to the Fed.

The Fed is weighing whether loans to people who buy speedboats and snowmobiles are as worthy of help as those to people who buy cars.

In late May, the Small Business Administration said that it would open one of its main lending programs to R.V. dealers.
Because the Fed has already agreed to finance S.B.A. loans, it may not be long before it is financing boats, snowmobiles, motorcycles and campers.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/business/economy/13fed.html?ref=business

Interesting. I love it when academics try to interpret what is going on in the banking industry. Actually neither the Fed or the SBA do the financing. Banks do that. The Fed lends against assets (short term) to banks and the SBA guarantees debt.

The whole SBA and floorplan financing has been a tough question for years. For the interim basis, it would probably be helpful for the SBA to guaranty floorplan financing of all sorts to establish market stability. On the other hand, they can do that all day long and it won't help unless consumers buy. What the govt can't and should not do is encourage lenders to go back to prior underwriting standards for consumers.

[zelatore]

Hedge, thought you might find this letter from Irwin Jacobs, head of Genmar, interesting in light of your thoughts about backing floorplans.

[BUIZILLA]

interesting in that Irwin acknowledges the recession already being 18 months old from the date of that letter, which puts the declination start one month after the Nov 2007 Demo takeover of Congress... coincidance? :pizza:

[The Hedgehog]

interesting in that Irwin acknowledges the recession already being 18 months old from the date of that letter, which puts the declination start one month after the Nov 2007 Demo takeover of Congress... coincedance? :pizza:

That is interesting.

Yes Buiz, it has been going on for quite some time. Being a businessman, I am sure that you are well aware.

The SBA products have always amazed me. I have seen them guarantee some garbage that nobody should touch and at the same time blacklist a floorplan to a nice going concern company with 10 years of good cash flow and tangible collateral.

This whole mess it kind of a chicken before the egg problem. If folks would start buying and doing things (yes recreation too) a bunch of this would go away. I get pissed when I see someone with a $300k income, stable job and a debt income of 10% lamenting over purchasing a new car. They are being part of the problem and not the solution.

[zelatore]

I get pissed when I see someone with a $300k income, stable job and a debt income of 10% lamenting over purchasing a new car. They are being part of the problem and not the solution.

I know that guy! He came in Saturday and wrote an offer on a boat. $175K on a boat that lists for $327K. Now he thinks maybe he was out of line and should be closer to $150K. We've got some concessions from the builders and the banks, but we're still loosing money at $175K. Frankly, we don't have the cash to 'pay' him to buy the boat at $150k, no matter how bad we want it gone.

[The Hedgehog]

I know that guy! He came in Saturday and wrote an offer on a boat. $175K on a boat that lists for $327K. Now he thinks maybe he was out of line and should be closer to $150K. We've got some concessions from the builders and the banks, but we're still loosing money at $175K. Frankly, we don't have the cash to 'pay' him to buy the boat at $150k, no matter how bad we want it gone.

Yeah, I am all about a fair negotiation and a good deal but that kind of stuff really irks me. Folks like that really piss me off. They think someone should lose in the transaction for it to be good for them. Then they think about and waffle around a little more. Maybe they get a good deal sometimes but mostly they get to watch life go by while they try to bottom feed. If you can afford something and want it, by all means go buy it but don't tell me about it unless you have the nads to pull the trigger on a fair price.

[Donziweasel]

Knew about it but was sworn to secrecy. Why not a cat? Everyone else is building one, except maybe Reggie. Plus, if it is anything, Donzi will probably make a sick as hell cat.......:):)

Hope the new owners don't decide to kill the Classics and just focus on the big stuff......:crossfing:

[RickSE]

...Hope the new owners don't decide to kill the Classics and just focus on the big stuff......:crossfing:

Or something like the last Scarrab-Wellcraft deal where they killed/discontinued all the performance boats.

I'll bet those Cat designs are still out there somewhere.

[Marlin275]

Or just do like the last Scarrab-Wellcraft deal and kill/discontinue all the performance boats.

If that happens the old boats go way up in value.:lookaroun:

[mrfixxall]

Or have you ever seen the movie ''pretty woman'' ?

[Marlin275]

as of june 12th 2009 Donzi marine was sold to a boca raton fl based copany in which has nothing to with the boat building industry as far as i found out..
they do own other major copanys to support the new donzi boats that we will be seeing in the near future like the new cat boats that mp posted.
thats all i know!:)

Thanks for telling it like it is . . .
no secret decoder rings needed

[Donziweasel]

Or something like the last Scarrab-Wellcraft deal where they killed/discontinued all the performance boats.

You know Rick, that killed me. I have no particular personal interest in Scarab, but I liked them. Now they are cruisers and fishing boats. Sad to see a name that was one of the big boys of performance boats reduced to fishing boats (nothing against fishing boats Jefe) and cruisers.

It would suck if Donzi started making only cats and fishing boats......LOL:bonk:

[JeffH]

Wouldn't that make all us Classic owners even more special:yes:!!!

[Donziweasel]

Yeah, but think of all the LE's SE's anniveraries, Shelby's, Arronow, Blackhawks, etc....editions we would miss.........:bonk:

[handfulz28]

Is it still a secret who the new owner is? Was it a private equity firm?

[Cuda]

I think Donzi throwing their hat in the cat building ring is a great idea. HTM, DCB, Skater, DCI, Outerlimits, Motion, Nor Tech, Platimum, etc made so much money building them, the only way they could do better is to build fishboats.

[Cuda]

The only boat that Doniz builds like no other boat, is the 16 to 22 Classics.

Rest of them have another boat pretty much designed the same.

[BUIZILLA]

who said Donzi was going to build cat's?

[SilverBack]

who said Donzi was going to build cat's?


Craig Barrie told me that on the phone. BTW...I got a price on an open 27 ZR and the new ones are much more expensive. I think that they are going to concentrate on ultra high quality and really compete more with the Outer Limits kind of boat. He told me that the new 27 ZR has different laminates and better balance and better upholstery and so on. It is supposed to be a much nicer boat and the price reflects that. A new 27 ZR cost the same without engine, drive, trailer, steering, instruments and the cabin finished out as last years does with a 496 HO, aluminum trailer, XR drive, dual ram hydraulic steering, all the instruments and finished cabin. That is a huge price increase.

The way he talked the new Cat is going to be one of the nicest on the market!

[mrfixxall]

Craig Barrie told me that on the phone. BTW...I got a price on an open 27 ZR and the new ones are much more expensive. I think that they are going to concentrate on ultra high quality and really compete more with the Outer Limits kind of boat. He told me that the new 27 ZR has different laminates and better balance and better upholstery and so on. It is supposed to be a much nicer boat and the price reflects that. A new 27 ZR cost the same without engine, drive, trailer, steering, instruments and the cabin finished out as last years does with a 496 HO, aluminum trailer, XR drive, dual ram hydraulic steering, all the instruments and finished cabin. That is a huge price increase.

The way he talked the new Cat is going to be one of the nicest on the market!


And the new 22's will have the option of a 525 efi and ???:yes:

[The Hedgehog]

I dunno why that was supposed to be a big secret. So they were having cash flow problems and got bought.

For grins I pulled all of their UCC filings and checked out the corporate bankruptcy filings a few days ago. No ABL type activity so I sort of figured that was happening. I almost pulled a D&B but did not feel like spending the coin on something I would probably get answered in a few days.

I seriously doubt that they really make any money on the classic or small ZR's. I do hope that they keep making them.

[f_inscreenname]

I hope it don't turn out like Harley and AMX for the rest of ya. As for me, they already built the boats I want.:wink:

[vrod02]

I hope it don't turn out like Harley and AMX for the rest of ya. As for me, they already built the boats I want.:wink:

AMX? Did you mean AMF? They saved Harley. I'm with ya on old production. 7 meter fever!!:yes:

[RickSE]

...I seriously doubt that they really make any money on the classic or small ZR's. I do hope that they keep making them.

They sell or at least used to sell a lot more Classics then you might think.

[Cuda]

Craig Barrie told me that on the phone. BTW...I got a price on an open 27 ZR and the new ones are much more expensive. I think that they are going to concentrate on ultra high quality and really compete more with the Outer Limits kind of boat. He told me that the new 27 ZR has different laminates and better balance and better upholstery and so on. It is supposed to be a much nicer boat and the price reflects that. A new 27 ZR cost the same without engine, drive, trailer, steering, instruments and the cabin finished out as last years does with a 496 HO, aluminum trailer, XR drive, dual ram hydraulic steering, all the instruments and finished cabin. That is a huge price increase.

The way he talked the new Cat is going to be one of the nicest on the market!
Craig Barrie doesn't know anything more about Donzi production line than I do. He's a boat builer, not a finacial whiz. When boat builders start think that they are indeed financial whiz's, that's the death knell of a company, no matter how much you like the company, or the boat builder. That IS the kiss of death.

Like they say, I know a perfect way of making a small fotune building cats................start with a large fortune.

[Lenny]

I do not like the smell of any of this... Andy's 27ZR etc,.. the delays.

I also know that if DONZi built a HIGH DOLLAR CAT, ( Nortech/Skater idea) or whatever and respective of the real high dollar V-hull Cat market, and they don't answer the phone and deal with warranty repairs and customer satisfaction, as we all know, then,... if they make a gold plated Cat, it will not sell.

Something stinks here and I think it might be along the lines of the Scarab/Wellcaft deal.

Obviously a personal opinion, but what do I know :rolleyes:

Let's hope not...

Hang on to your Classics folks :yes:

Simple economics by my way of thinking.

IE: a customer wants a small "kitchen" . It consists of three boxes and hardware. I make $500 bucks when all is said and done. Another customer wants a large kitchen/granite AND the suite. I make $20,000. Which one do I build and which one do I let go to voicemail ???

hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Ghost]

...Hang on to your Classics folks :yes:

Simple economics by my way of thinking.

IE: a customer wants a small "kitchen" . It consists of three boxes and hardware. I make $500 bucks when all is said and done. Another customer wants a large kitchen/granite AND the suite. I make $20,000. Which one do I build and which one do I let go to voicemail ???

hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

People will start buying Lencos.

[Lenny]

People will start buying Lencos.

:D

Shocker, never saw that coming ;)

And Buzz has #1...

[Lenny]

Ya know, last time I checked, MTI, NORTECH, OUTERLIMITS, CIGARETTE,FOUNTAIN, whomever, didn't have a 16' footer for sale...

With margins/manpower, ... profitability ratios what they are, the banks etc and the people wanting to buy them ???

this "shocks" you ???

I know it doesn't to you Joe, Mike, simply a wake up call. But you knew this.

The days of home "equity" funding "fun" are gone for a while. There was a time, not so long ago, that a LOT of Americans ( we never had that access to the money bubble) bought up a LOT of our Real Estate on the Gulf Islands. ( Bill Gates, Paul Allen etc) actually, Bill is about 1000' from my cottage on my Island but he actually owns his ENTIRE Island, anyways, until inflation runs its' home game (and it will) and interest rates RISE, and the truly "wealthy" surface and we see a balance in this game once again, I am afraid there is going to be a lot of bloodletting... :(

Boat builders (or product lines) will be one of em as will many of us... :(

[SilverBack]

Craig Barrie doesn't know anything more about Donzi production line than I do. He's a boat builer, not a finacial whiz. When boat builders start think that they are indeed financial whiz's, that's the death knell of a company, no matter how much you like the company, or the boat builder. That IS the kiss of death.

Like they say, I know a perfect way of making a small fotune building cats................start with a large fortune.


Hey..I don't know the guy I have just talked to him on the phone a few times trying to order stuff and get stuff ordered. He said "I am building the cat .... that is going to happen". I would have to think that he would have known because he is the only person I have ever gotten on the phone down there except the receptionist. I can tell you this, It is a lot easier than ever to talk to get someone on the phone down there. After my talk with him and a few emails and his talking about building with so much more quality that they did last year and having the price tag to go with it....I don't think that I can afford a new Donzi any more. When I asked about why the new boat costing as much open as the old one with a trailer and high end engine and all the other stuff that I listed ...he would not budge on the price and just tried to sell me on quality. He said there are some old boats around if you want to go that route. My impression is that you had better get your pocket book ready if you want a Donzi from now on! The price amounted to a 50 to 60 percent increase in price.

[Ghost]

Lenny was on this already, but I'll pile on, thinking and typing at the same time.

Economy tanks.

Interest rates spike (which they should--lend your money in a risky world, you'd better have real reward for so doing).

The few people with real savings FINALLY have a chance to put their saved wealth to work for them. For years, it was roll the dice on stock prices, but historically more cautious investments paid jack.

Sounds like moving further toward the bathtub-shaped income distribution curve. (Lots of poor, few middle class, more very-rich).

So, to whom do you market?

Though there is a real question of marketing new versus the existing used stock. I suspect VERY HIGH END used will hold value. New high end will have some market. More middle-class stuff will become scarce as new product.

Doesn't sound fun, but that's what it feels like from a quick and dirty analysis.

Mike

[Mr X]

Funny, you mentioned "Bill Gates"....... :yes:
Stay tuned......

[BUIZILLA]

a cat?

at this point in time?

they can't even pay a simple justifiable $1500 warranty claim to Carl since last year, and they want to gamble on a million dollar cat?

it's no secret that 27 ZR's aren't selling at any price... new or used....

and they offer zippo product for the family market...

okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[mike o]

a cat?

at this point in time?

they can't even pay a simple justifiable $1500 warranty claim to Carl since last year, and they want to gamble on a million dollar cat?

it's no secret that 27 ZR's aren't selling at any price... new or used....

and they offer zippo product for the family market...

okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyTook the words out of my mouth. Plus the little customer service issues I read.

[VetteLT193]

It's quite clear that whatever Donzi was doing over the last few years is not working so the new company is taking it in a different direction that focuses on quality.

sounds good to me. For all of us that own one, it should be good news too.

Cigarette did this exact thing a long time ago and look where they are now, and look where the values of the used boats are now.

[mattyboy]

It's quite clear that whatever Donzi was doing over the last few years is not working so the new company is taking it in a different direction that focuses on quality.
sounds good to me. For all of us that own one, it should be good news too.
Cigarette did this exact thing a long time ago and look where they are now, and look where the values of the used boats are now.



yeah but you can't get a cig in under a 30 foot boat cig dropped the 30 vice as did fountain their smallest is a 35 now.

so are the classics history??? when a door closes another opens, seems some things come back, hacker is back on lake george building "classics"
I think somewhere over this weekend and 2 bottles of gentlemen jack I talked Pearson into the Lake George Classic Hi-Po Boat Co ;)

Hope things work out for them in these unsure times, one thing is for certain the donzi cat guys are gonna have to get inline behind the donzi Z guys it will be quite some time before either of them are eligible to participate in a dustoff ;) :)

[boxy]

a cat?

at this point in time?

they can't even pay a simple justifiable $1500 warranty claim to Carl since last year, and they want to gamble on a million dollar cat?

it's no secret that 27 ZR's aren't selling at any price... new or used....

and they offer zippo product for the family market...

okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


Ask OuterLimits how well their venture from High End Custom V-bottoms to Cats is going ??

[jl1962]

Hmmmm......LG Classic Hi-Po Boat Co........Now you're talking.....
Where do I get on line for a Pumpkin Clone? :yes:


Seriously Fellas, How about a Press Release from the new parent?

[mattyboy]

Hmmmm......LG Classic Hi-Po Boat Co........Now you're talking.....
Where do I get on line for a Pumpkin Clone? :yes:




Seriously Fellas, How about a Press Release from the new parent?

the orange boat is no longer reffered to as the pumpkin, when the president is aboard it is called air force one


a press release would be nice

[olredalert]

-------DONZI is going to start building quality now??? What have they been doing, Bayliners???
-------Is it just possible that Andys problems getting his boat built stemmed from an unfortunate timing thing. The changeover in ownership got him in the middle and the factory just didnt handle it well??? Production stopped as old ownership didnt want to start anything they wouldnt get payment for??? It still isnt anywhere near right but I think its probably what happened........Bill S

[boxy]

Andy has solved his problems ......

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/donzi/211045-new-me-2008-35-zr.html

Looks great Andy, I hope you have a great summer.. :pimp:

[Lenny]

Andy has solved his problems ......

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/donzi/211045-new-me-2008-35-zr.html

Looks great Andy, I hope you have a great summer.. :pimp:

nice :yes:

WOW

[olredalert]

------Im happy for Andy, but still think that was the problem. He obviously took the right path with the bigger boat. DONZIs problems during this "transition" may have actually worked for him not against him.........Bill S

[gcarter]

One thing to consider though is the new owner "probably" has no obligation for any existing warranty issues.

Just think about CC in the early '90's.

[smokediver]

I think that some of the other builders don't offer a 16 foot boat as they didn't make one with the following of the 16 ! I hope that Donzi sticks with their core and I think a big reason why things went a little south for them is because they did just that . Here in my little part of the world we hae done just that . We are no longer a fire truck with a few med bags but now an ambulance dressed like a fire truck stripped of many of the tools people expect us to have ... Donzi Marine needs a mission statement and they need to stick to it ... I love the USMC . " We make Marines and we win battles" pretty simple and to the point !

[fasttrucker]

The price of fuel and fiberglass has made the smaller performance boat market go away.Is there still a checkmate for that market?

[Donziweasel]

Smallest boat they make, 23 ft, in an I/O-

http://www.checkmatepowerboats.net/Checkmate-Power-Boats-ZT-230.html

Smallest in an outboard is 16-

http://www.checkmatepowerboats.net/Checkmate-Power-Boats-Pulsare-1600-br.html

[Donzi Andy]

Speaking from experience, Donzi builds an awesome boat. Although maybe just bad timing, their customer relations sucks.

I have to give Craig Barrie credit, he always called me back and was willing to answer every question. Although I feel that everyone at the factory new something was going to happen. At the point when I ordered the 27, I think Craig knew something was going on. I wish they would have informed me, rather then blowing smoke up my ass for two months. Although in the end, everything worked out. I give credit to my Donzi dealer, Shipyard Marine for stepping up to the plate when Donzi had no options when the 27 seemed to be dead in the water.

[gold-n-rod]

Speaking from experience, Donzi builds an awesome boat. Although maybe just bad timing, their customer relations sucks.

I have to give Craig Barrie credit, he always called me back and was willing to answer every question. Although I feel that everyone at the factory new something was going to happen. At the point when I ordered the 27, I think Craig knew something was going on. I wish they would have informed me, rather then blowing smoke up my ass for two months. Although in the end, everything worked out. I give credit to my Donzi dealer, Shipyard Marine for stepping up to the plate when Donzi had no options when the 27 seemed to be dead in the water.

So, post your pics here, too. I couldn't view them @ OSO.

[Donziweasel]

Randy, he got a sweet 35. Beautiful Donzi, I really like it...:)

Although, Andy, we are going to have to talk about beefing those tiwn 496's up one day.......:wink:

[Cuda]

Ya know, last time I checked, MTI, NORTECH, OUTERLIMITS, CIGARETTE,FOUNTAIN, whomever, didn't have a 16' footer for sale...
With margins/manpower, ... profitability ratios what they are, the banks etc and the people wanting to buy them ???
this "shocks" you ???
I know it doesn't to you Joe, Mike, simply a wake up call. But you knew this.
The days of home "equity" funding "fun" are gone for a while. There was a time, not so long ago, that a LOT of Americans ( we never had that access to the money bubble) bought up a LOT of our Real Estate on the Gulf Islands. ( Bill Gates, Paul Allen etc) actually, Bill is about 1000' from my cottage on my Island but he actually owns his ENTIRE Island, anyways, until inflation runs its' home game (and it will) and interest rates RISE, and the truly "wealthy" surface and we see a balance in this game once again, I am afraid there is going to be a lot of bloodletting... :(
Boat builders (or product lines) will be one of em as will many of us... :(
Whoa there stranger! Put down the bottle and reread what you posted v what I said. I'll boil it down for you what I think Donzi should do. They should build the 16, 18, and 22 Classics. That's it. If someone want a cat, or an exotically power boat, there are plenty of them on fire sale right now. Only a fool would try to expand their boating line under these conditions, and no matter how much you bleed Donzi, if they built a cat, would you risk you're hard earned cash on an experimtal cat? Nobody is that stupid.

[Lenny]

OK Joe, but I do not have a "bottle" in front of me right now and I WILL leave you out of the equation. OK, you are not even remotely related to this scenario I played out, OK ? This has nothing to do with you or your thoughts or anything else. I mis-understood you and your take on things.

What you quoted above IS what happened in the boating world the way I see it, ( read that, I see it) and that other scenario is what I think will follow. Cut and paste this as a quote in two years... or not. Relax, it is just an opinion, just not yours' obviously.

Geesh :rolleyes:

[Cuda]

OK Joe, but I do not have a "bottle" in front of me right now and I WILL leave you out of the equation. OK, you are not even remotely related to this scenario I played out, OK ? This has nothing to do with you or your thoughts or anything else. I mis-understood you and your take on things.

What you quoted above IS what happened in the boating world the way I see it, ( read that, I see it) and that other scenario is what I think will follow. Cut and paste this as a quote in two years... or not. Relax, it is just an opinion, just not yours' obviously.

Geesh :rolleyes:
Are you saying you see Donzi making a mint on large cats? And I thought I was delusional.

[boxy]

Joe, I'm pretty sure if you re-read Lenny's posts, the two of you are on the same side of this discussion.

[gold-n-rod]

I'll boil it down for you what I think Donzi should do. They should build the 16, 18, and 22 Classics. That's it.

I don't see the wisdom in this statement, Joe. Even in the good years, how many Classics did Donzi make in a year's time... 50... 75... 100? And at what price... maybe an average of $35K each?

That's only $3.5 mil worth of annual sales. For that, they would stock and operate a factory, maintain a parts inventory, manage a dealer network and market their products? I'm not a businessman, but I can't see where there's a ROI for the business model you propose.

I'd speculate that it was the large boats that afforded AMH the luxury of building the Classics.

[The Hedgehog]

I don't see the wisdom in this statement, Joe. Even in the good years, how many Classics did Donzi make in a year's time... 50... 75... 100? And at what price... maybe an average of $35K each?
That's only $3.5 mil worth of annual sales. For that, they would stock and operate a factory, maintain a parts inventory, manage a dealer network and market their products? I'm not a businessman, but I can't see where there's a ROI for the business model you propose.
I'd speculate that it was the large boats that afforded AMH the luxury of building the Classics.

Yep, they make their money on the high end stuff and the fishing boats.

The small boats have been sort of a loss leader. Take the 22ZX. It sold for substantially less than the 26ZX with a similar build cost. It got dropped.

Boats like the 27ZR exist as an entry level boat for folks to move into the bigger boats.

Take those 35ZR's you see that were hitting the market at $180k, how much more do you think it really cost to build some of the 38ZR's that were $500k boats?

They may do a classic or so but that will not be their focus.

[Ghost]

I don't see the wisdom in this statement, Joe. Even in the good years, how many Classics did Donzi make in a year's time... 50... 75... 100? And at what price... maybe an average of $35K each?

That's only $3.5 mil worth of annual sales. For that, they would stock and operate a factory, maintain a parts inventory, manage a dealer network and market their products? I'm not a businessman, but I can't see where there's a ROI for the business model you propose.

I'd speculate that it was the large boats that afforded AMH the luxury of building the Classics.

Funny, I was looking at this one a different way. I always thought the Classics looked like a boat that was EASY to build, in that they never changed, had a dirt simple snap in interior with little upholstery, etc. Not a lot of bells and whistles to wire up. Just a basic glass hull with a great shape that commanded serious money for what it was. Fairly low labor cost compared to many boats, I'd expect. So I'd have thought they'd make money on each unit without much effort at all.

Now, as to how many they made per year--dunno. REALLY curious if anyone here does. We can probably figure it with a few recent hull #s. But 100 per year strikes me as low, at least over recent years. (Two per state per year, on average?? Not even one of each size??) I'm picturing the factory profits between 5 and 15 k on average per Classic, given the dealer cost. At 100 boats, that would be 500k to 1.5 Mil profit. At 300 boats it would be 1.5Mil to 4.5 Mil in profit.

But more important, as long as there is ANY larger operation that can order glass, resin, and Mercruisers for relatively low cost, and has guys who do glasswork, they gotta turn a profit per unit on the Classics, given what they are and what people pay for them, no? So, why dump them unless you expect to get down under 30 or so boats per year or fewer, whatever would push your unit cost up enough that this sideline of your operation goes into the red.

I was kidding before about the Lencos. But I bet given the tools and jigs and material costs under AMH and such, Lenny might be able to crank out one a month all by himself and take the 5-15 k profit, if he could command the same price to the dealer.

Hmmmm...

[HOWARD O]

Hmmm, a new Lenco Classic Boat "clique". I want in on that one! :kingme:

[LKSD]

I have known for a bit that there was some changes going on down there. I have not been at liberty to publicise all of it. I wish the new path well & I hope that they will continue to build boats as I was informed. The economy in genral has taken its' toll on the entire industry so we all should know that there will be good & bad new chages going forward in almost all companies..

That's all I'm saying for now as I dont want to spread rumors or give way to any misunderstandings or mis-information.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

[fasttrucker]

Yep, they make their money on the high end stuff and the fishing boats.

The small boats have been sort of a loss leader. Take the 22ZX. It sold for substantially less than the 26ZX with a similar build cost. It got dropped.

Boats like the 27ZR exist as an entry level boat for folks to move into the bigger boats.

Take those 35ZR's you see that were hitting the market at $180k, how much more do you think it really cost to build some of the 38ZR's that were $500k boats?

They may do a classic or so but that will not be their focus.

They made a lot of money on gov. (post 9/11) enforcement go-fasts.Now with the new pres. america is safe from danger as he has saved us all(and the world):rolleyes: from the evil bush.So the usa doesnt need those boats any more...........:lookaroun:

[Cuda]

How everyone became priviy to what Donzi is or is not making money on is beyond me. I find it hard to believe they couldn't turn a profit on what they were getting for 22 feet of fiberglass, and they all looked good, with very minor changes through the years. On the other hand, guess wrong only once on a 38 ZR, and have to take a loss on one Zr, and it pretty much wipes out most of the profit for all the 38 Zr's for the year.

Then there are the fishboats. Everybody and their brother turns out a fishboat. That's an ultra competiive business. There not much meat left on that bone. But go ahead and plunk down $500k for a cat that exists only on paper, and in somebody's imagination. I truly wish you luck, but it won't be made on my dime. No way.

If you want a boat that looks like a Donzi Classic, you are going to buy a Donzi Classic. I'm not saying that just because personally love them, I'm saying that because it's the cold hard fact. There is no other boat that looks like them.

[Carl C]

If so, delete it, but this is HUGE! http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/donzi/211284-rumor.html

[penbroke]

Looks like a good time to buy some Lenco stock...


Frank :lookaroun:

[VetteLT193]

From a few days ago here, the 15th:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57987

[BUIZILLA]

so are the 16 & 18 molds available?

[gold-n-rod]

Looks like a good time to buy some Lenco stock...
Frank :lookaroun:
Umm, OK.
http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage_files/WEB_Pg_6_ST1200_complete.jpg

[Carl C]

From a few days ago here, the 15th:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57987

Wow, I don't know how I could have missed that. Thanks, I've got some reading to catch up on.

[penbroke]

Umm, OK.


:lifeprese:
Frank

[golfmaxgolf]

Been hot topic on bird key(again) 4 sometime now!!

[VetteLT193]

Wow, I don't know how I could have missed that. Thanks, I've got some reading to catch up on.

I had intended on making the title "Donzi Marine is SOLD" but left out the marine. I think it half sounds like I sold my own boat the way it is. All well, it is what it is at this point.

[Donzi LG]

Vette that's exactly what I thought for days until I wondered why a boat sold thread was multiple pages; was quite surprised when I started reading!

[Lenny]

I hope we are not talking about something like this in the future... :(

...but the prop logo does have a following and there has got to be a mountain of these required in the near future...

[show-n-go h2o]

I had intended on making the title "Donzi Marine is SOLD" but left out the marine. I think it half sounds like I sold my own boat the way it is. All well, it is what it is at this point.


I thought you sold your boat too, I just read this thread today after seeing the one on OSO.

[HOWARD O]

The thread on OSO that Carl sent us to says absolutely nothing. However, there is a deleted post. What'd it say? Are they discontinuing the Classic line?

[MOP]

What may happen is the same thing that other manufacturers did when the excise tax was put in place years back, they scaled way back or eliminated smaller models. They went to large and higher end boats, this may very well play out this time around being the middle class is pretty stressed for $$$. They raise their sights to the upper end buyer, Viking Yacht for one eliminated the 44 DCMY one of the most popular boats in their line up. I spoke with the president at the Norwalk show, he said it cost nearly as much to produce the 44 ans it a 50. I know this id true as the general rule of thumb when it come to the final product, the hull is about 15% of the final cost 85% goes into machinery, interior and a bunch of other ancillary items. If you think about it makes more sense from a profit stand point.

[The Hedgehog]

What may happen is the same thing that other manufacturers did when the excise tax was put in place years back, they scaled way back or eliminated smaller models. They went to large and higher end boats, this may very well play out this time around being the middle class is pretty stressed for $$$. They raise their sights to the upper end buyer, Viking Yacht for one eliminated the 44 DCMY one of the most popular boats in their line up. I spoke with the president at the Norwalk show, he said it cost nearly as much to produce the 44 ans it a 50. I know this id true as the general rule of thumb when it come to the final product, the hull is about 15% of the final cost 85% goes into machinery, interior and a bunch of other ancillary items. If you think about it makes more sense from a profit stand point.

Yep!:yes:

Now how do we get our hands on the 16 and 18 molds:kingme:

[Marlin275]

The thread on OSO that Carl sent us to says absolutely nothing. However, there is a deleted post. What'd it say? Are they discontinuing the Classic line?

From OSO thread:

"Donzi Andy
Donzi 08 35 ZR

Donzi plans to drop all the single engine boats, except for the 27ZR and 22 classic.
They will concentrate on boats larger than 35.
They also have a cat boat in the works.
Donzi has a bright future and look for some good things from them very soon."

[Donziweasel]

I can see them axing the 16 and 18 from a business point of view. Going to take a long time for the economy to fully recover. Too many cost effective alternatives. Classics, while the least inexpensive Donzi, ain't cheap in the 16, 18 and 22 ft market. You would have to sell dozens of 16's to get the profit margin of a 35 ZR. Wouldn't be the first time Donzi dropped the 16.

As for holding on to one for an investment, not gonna happen. Too many have been produced, they aren't rare. Maybe in 20 years......

Anyway, it is all a bunch of speculation right now. Only Donzi knows what they will and will not build, and they ain't talkin' right now.

[Cuda]

I can see them axing the 16 and 18 from a business point of view. Going to take a long time for the economy to fully recover. Too many cost effective alternatives. Classics, while the least inexpensive Donzi, ain't cheap in the 16, 18 and 22 ft market. You would have to sell dozens of 16's to get the profit margin of a 35 ZR. Wouldn't be the first time Donzi dropped the 16.
As for holding on to one for an investment, not gonna happen. Too many have been produced, they aren't rare. Maybe in 20 years......
Anyway, it is all a bunch of speculation right now. Only Donzi knows what they will and will not build, and they ain't talkin' right now.
Ain't no 35 going to be an investment either. Just how many unsold 35's and big usold cats do you think they can absorb?

The emperor has no clothes.

[Cuda]

They're gonna compete with Tiara eh Lenster?? :D :D
Some pretty big shoes to fill. I think they have built one of the most solid boats for years, but what do I know? I'm just an ignernt tile guy.

[HOWARD O]

Thanks Marlin!

[Ghost]

Some pretty big shoes to fill. I think they have built one of the most solid boats for years, but what do I know? I'm just an ignernt tile guy.

I think the Tiara comment was about some sideline work Tiara is doing with windmills or something. I think.

[mike o]

Maybe donzi andy can please explain as to who made that statement to him.:yes:

[Marlin275]

The 18Classic
has one of the longest
continuous production runs
of any boat in history

the 13 Whaler
came close
but they changed it

[BUIZILLA]

what's gonna happen with the 16 & 18 tools?

[VetteLT193]

I'll be there Monday... want to send me with a list of questions? I'll do my best to get the info.

[Marlin275]

I'll be there Monday... want to send me with a list of questions? I'll do my best to get the info.

Don't break the 18Classic record?
44 years
Don's favorite number?

[gold-n-rod]

The 18Classic
has one of the longest
continuous production runs
of any boat in history

the 13 Whaler
came close
but they changed it

And they ruined the small Whalers with the "improved" models.

Remember that the 4 Winns Unlimiteds were designed to replace the Donzi Classics. Good thing cooler heads prevailed. Let's hope for the same today.

[Cuda]

Don't break the 18Classic record?
44 years
Don's favorite number?
I thought the 16 was built first.

Poodle??

[VetteLT193]

I thought the 16 was built first.
Poodle??
the 16 was built first but there was a break in production...

[Carl C]

I had intended on making the title "Donzi Marine is SOLD" but left out the marine. I think it half sounds like I sold my own boat the way it is. All well, it is what it is at this point.

Yup, that's exactly why I missed it. It sounds like good news to me. We all knew something was going on with operations nearly completely shut down. The alternative could well have been the loss of Donzi. Magic and Sleekcraft are gone if anyone hadn't heard. I like what I see except for the loss of the 18C.

[VetteLT193]

So far I'll ask about the 18.
Personally I'd like to see if they will back an event or two. I'm sure I won't be the first to ask but I figure: what the hell, it's worth asking again at least.
I might take a jab about Carl's unpaid warranty claim too

[Carl C]

I might take a jab about Carl's unpaid warranty claim too

Cool. I'll call them when I get back from vacation.

[mattyboy]

wow amazing at some of the mis-conceptions here

the 10 year period when the 16 was not produced can't really be called a break it was dropped from the line up for a decade, alot of 18's were built in that time

the unlimited boats were not built to replace the classics they were made by omc to compete with the classics after omc sold donzi to amh


with the dropping of the 16 and the 18 there will be no true lineage to their origin, not sure if this is good or bad

[gold-n-rod]

the unlimited boats were not built to replace the classics they were made by omc to compete with the classics after omc sold donzi to amh

Since they were developed during the omc years (when omc was building the Classics) how could that be?????

[Cuda]

There is usually a U-19 at Lake Eustis. I've seen it during the Mt Dora festival several times.

[chappy]

I'd be curious about the molds for the 16 and 18. But, IF I were the new owners, I'd white knuckle them indefinitely, based on their success and following over the last four plus decades.

[VetteLT193]

wow amazing at some of the mis-conceptions here
the 10 year period when the 16 was not produced can't really be called a break it was dropped from the line up for a decade, alot of 18's were built in that time
the unlimited boats were not built to replace the classics they were made by omc to compete with the classics after omc sold donzi to amh
with the dropping of the 16 and the 18 there will be no true lineage to their origin, not sure if this is good or bad

A break vs. dropped is splitting hairs. The bottom line is they didn't continuously make the 16.

Everything I've learned about the U boats is they were in fact designed to replace the classics and there was a change in plans when OMC sold Donzi... they already had them made so they used them for Four Winns instead. I haven't talked to anyone from the factory during those times though, so who really knows?

[Donzi Andy]

What I heard came directly from Craig Barrie. Things may change, although concentrating on the larger boats is the current plan.

[mattyboy]

A break vs. dropped is splitting hairs. The bottom line is they didn't continuously make the 16.
Everything I've learned about the U boats is they were in fact designed to replace the classics and there was a change in plans when OMC sold Donzi... they already had them made so they used them for Four Winns instead. I haven't talked to anyone from the factory during those times though, so who really knows?


yes but a break is short term a decade is not short term ;) plus the molds were destroyed when the Staple era began no 16 mold was part of the sale

the u boats appeared in 95-96 after omc had sold donzi it was omc chance to compete with a line they just sold off and knew there was a market for a small hi po deep vee, most likely the molds in goshen where used to make a plug and then returned to donzi or destroyed

[Cuda]

Buddy and Fishboy's mama had a baby blue 16. Fish had the fishboat, Buddy got a 22, and daddy got a 65 Donzi, They were all 1986. They also had a 24 Widow, I think, with no porthole. It was especially walked through production not to have a porthole cut into it.

[Cuda]

Wasn't Craig Barrie the main builder of Dragon Boats. I guess he made too much money. I think they sold three of them.

Run that by me again how concentrating on the bigger boats is gonna pull the company through. They better learn to dance with who brung ya.

[Carl C]

They will have to do a little damage repair in the PR department but Donzi still has good name recognition and a good reputation. I posted a poll on Speedwake a while ago on how people perceive Donzi Powerboats and the response was very positive. I think they will do well with the big boats if they keep the quality up and customer support improves.
:crossfing: Here is the poll: http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59001&highlight=perceive+donzi

[Cuda]

Not a chance. You must be on the hooka pipe if you think a little pr is going to pull the boating industry out, especially banking on big exotic boats or cats. No f ing way.

[Cuda]

You need to do your due diligence with his Savior, Craig Barrie. He didn't fare so well building Dragon Boats, which was supposed to be the end all of all boats, and I don't doubt they were great boats, but they couldn't sell enough of them to make a go of it. Before you come on spouting about someone saving the company, check to see what they've done before. As I always sai, Past Performance Predicts Future Behavior.

Better check yourself before you wreck yourself.

http://www.dragonpowerboats.com/

[Donziweasel]

Alright Joe, you believe that going for the high end, big stuff is a mistake. What do you suggest? What they were doing wasn't working or they wouldn't have sold. Just curious, not trying to start anything....:wink:

[Lenny]

Joe, step back and play nice, no one here is TELLING anyone / or you what will work or not, these are just opinions, as are yours.

No crack or hooka pipe needed, what is needed is a crystal ball. :yes:

Time will tell, and if you know what will work I suggest you invest heavily in either THAT, or a start up, or an existing Company and its' portfolio and show us all and toot your air horn from the bow of your Yacht...then invite us for 3 rounds of "Slippery Nipple Martinis" and a bevy of Babes :yes:

...who knows...

I DO KNOW, (personally) from a Manufacturing standpoint AND overhead and from a Corporation standpoint, I would NEVER want the small Classics unless it looked something like below.

An incredibly small Company of 8, a CEO/Director (80K), purchasing (60K), marketing (60K), foreman (60K) and a highly gifted "In Charge/Rigger" (60K) , and three talented employees that didn't get sick too often (120K divided by 3), and you used high end fabrics/composites, and played into the customers hand with rigging, power and honoured warranties, this could be something if the REAL NAME followed with their blessing :yes:

$440,000 in net wages a year and we are good. Make $10K on a SOLD boat (after lease, fax, cells,rigging and materials/supplies) translates into 44 boats a year less overhead...leaving out Corporate profitabilty.

Basically, 1 CLASSIC, one a week, out the door and the Legacy continues, of HIGH quality, high performance, and high customer satisfaction and generating "repeat offenders" . :)

Who knows ???

So let's grab 2 more employees and make 2 boats a week :D

[handfulz28]

You guys really need to hear what annual "production" volume for the classics are. And then you need to hear what "sales" volumes are. The number "14" comes to mind...

[Lenny]

You guys really need to hear what annual "production" volume for the classics are. And then you need to hear what "sales" volumes are. The number "14" comes to mind...

WOW, that surprises me given your 300 M population and the opulent abroad ...

Wild number, I never would have thought that low...

...don't care really either... just hope they (we) survive and can have (continue) a background to the marque... :yes:

I think everyone. whomever, from '64 or onward to now, should feel proud of what they have prescribed to, what makes them happy and how they got caught caught up in this...

There aren't any split window Vettes anymore either but I would SURE like one... I think Ol Red has one ;)

...it's all good ...

[BUIZILLA]

maybe they will build some of these..

[Cuda]

Are you saying he didn't go broke building high end boats?
I'd rather make 10 g off one boat, than to pour millions into the production of three boats. Let's see how you spin that one.

If you have been building the Classics for forty years, and can't make a go of it, then yes, it's time to fold the tent.

What do the rest of you suggest? If you think they can make it building high end boats only, put your money where your mouth is, and buy some stock. I myself would rather take the money to Vegas. At least SOMEBODY wins in Vegas. I love the brand also, but I'm not sticking my head in the sand. Call me Henny Penny, but if they go high end, the sky is indeed falling.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

So where did Pro Line fish boats end up in this? Still with AMH? Not that I care about fish boats so much (hence my handle), but just wondering what AMH is doing with that.

My late uncle workd for GM from '59 (Corvette plant) to 2000 (Wentzville), and I remember him stating that GM didn't make squat on the little cars they made, but made good money on the bigger cars/trucks. But, they had to make the little cars to meet the CAFE standards put in place by the government. Granted, I don't think the boating industry is affected in that such manner, but I would think there is more money to be made making the bigger boats. I have customers that build dump bodies and dump trailers. They ALL claim there is more money to be made in making the trailers than the bodies (time allocations). But, when people are not buying trailers, and bodies are selling, rather than laying people off, keep production going and build some bodies.

I love the Classics, always have ever since I was a kid. But a Classic is not condusive to my family needs. So while I may never be invited/accepted at a Lake George Donzi event because I proudly own a 'Z' boat, I would still hate to see the Classics disappear from production.

[mattyboy]

I realize that margins on larger items are LARGER, but in a marketing plan you have a core customer base and you want it to be loyal return customer base well at least in a perishible item like boats and cars appliances and the like. I mean if you are selling grave sites that is a one time deal and if that customer returns you are in real trouble.


I market and service NEC phone systems they are designed to be small home office 3-4 phones 2 lines but they grow up to 10,000 phone 1000 line full blown PBX systems . They market and engourage with incentives and re use of existing equip the customer to grow and as they grow we sell them more equipment. Just as chevy wants the guy who bought a nova in college then a corvette when he got his first job then after he gets married and has a family he wants them to buy SUV or sedan. it all started cause they built a nova.

as carl said people have a good impression of Donzi but sorry that didn't come from the new ZR or Z boats that marque was built on Don and the classics.

so where does someone looking for a deep vee entry level hi po go to to buy it??? well if the 16 18 are gone they jump right into a 90-100 k 22 ???? think they will wind up in something else a superboat or a sutphen and after they have that boat for a while and want to move up do you think they will come back to donzi ????or will they move up with in the brand they already have ???? Are they looking for first time buyers?? the guy with the cash who get a 35zr as his first go fast??? That's the same guy who's widow sues them cause he couldn't handle the boat

Could the plan be to go all out and finally go after the guy with the gold and bad hair??? and built 180 mph deep vees or after MTI and build 200 mph cats??

kind of hard to build a company on your legacy when you killed it

Fishin, you are invited and accepted to the lake george fall picnic as is every kind of donzi owner and other Aronow boat company owners ;)


Maybe they are looking for the new coke classic coke thingy and it is all a ploy to hype up classic sales ;)

but just in case I will call the broker tom. am. and see if there are any shares of sutphen out there ;) :yes:

[BUIZILLA]

one thing is for certain....

if this is the direction they are going, and I could be wrong (I doubt it) there isn't a single person on this Classic/ZX website that will follow their purchasing direction..

[mattyboy]

it is a small marketing offering 27-45 feet so what do they have in mind a 27 a 35/8 ish and a 43??? and the same in a cat???? where does the confidence come from for a first time donzi cat buyer come from??? there's no r&d, maybe some older plans or are they taking someone from another cat company that has a history?? I mean Don's first foray into cats did not set the water on fire ;) so I doubt they will use that as brochure material

[VetteLT193]

Joe, step back and play nice, no one here is TELLING anyone / or you what will work or not, these are just opinions, as are yours.

No crack or hooka pipe needed, what is needed is a crystal ball. :yes:

Time will tell, and if you know what will work I suggest you invest heavily in either THAT, or a start up, or an existing Company and its' portfolio and show us all and toot your air horn from the bow of your Yacht...then invite us for 3 rounds of "Slippery Nipple Martinis" and a bevy of Babes :yes:

...who knows...

I DO KNOW, (personally) from a Manufacturing standpoint AND overhead and from a Corporation standpoint, I would NEVER want the small Classics unless it looked something like below.

An incredibly small Company of 8, a CEO/Director (80K), purchasing (60K), marketing (60K), foreman (60K) and a highly gifted "In Charge/Rigger" (60K) , and three talented employees that didn't get sick too often (120K divided by 3), and you used high end fabrics/composites, and played into the customers hand with rigging, power and honoured warranties, this could be something if the REAL NAME followed with their blessing :yes:

$440,000 in net wages a year and we are good. Make $10K on a SOLD boat (after lease, fax, cells,rigging and materials/supplies) translates into 44 boats a year less overhead...leaving out Corporate profitabilty.

Basically, 1 CLASSIC, one a week, out the door and the Legacy continues, of HIGH quality, high performance, and high customer satisfaction and generating "repeat offenders" . :)

Who knows ???

So let's grab 2 more employees and make 2 boats a week :D

The problem is all the numbers are low. You've got taxes and insurance on top of salaries. Plus liability insurance. Plus workers comp. Plus plus plus.

I'd guess that a 60k employee, when everything is said and done, costs closer to 100k.

As far as Craig Barrie goes, He's done the boat thing from top to bottom... from scratch. I'd say he knows more than anyone of us about what to do right and wrong in both the business and boat building process.

Any which way, I really hope Donzi does very well in the future. It only can mean good news for us as owners of their products. :crossfing:

[Donziweasel]

where does the confidence come from for a first time donzi cat buyer come from???

Matty, racing could help. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday......

[mattyboy]

Matty, racing could help. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday......


it would but they would have to start with a factory team and usually in hard economic times that is the first place most corp cut back ,sponsoring or running factory race teams. They did very well with the 38zr comp when it first came out in the f2 class but in the super classes they did ok-ish seems in the vee world OL and reggie have a strangle hold they lost team OSG to OL Haviong other teams jump brands would be highly unlikely

plus if it was that easy to win everyone would be doing it ;) I mean boston whaler could make a fast cat doesn't mean they would sell


I would like to see a press release and a mission statement

[mike o]

Joe, step back and play nice, no one here is TELLING anyone / or you what will work or not, these are just opinions, as are yours.

No crack or hooka pipe needed, what is needed is a crystal ball. :yes:

Time will tell, and if you know what will work I suggest you invest heavily in either THAT, or a start up, or an existing Company and its' portfolio and show us all and toot your air horn from the bow of your Yacht...then invite us for 3 rounds of "Slippery Nipple Martinis" and a bevy of Babes :yes:

...who knows...

I DO KNOW, (personally) from a Manufacturing standpoint AND overhead and from a Corporation standpoint, I would NEVER want the small Classics unless it looked something like below.

An incredibly small Company of 8, a CEO/Director (80K), purchasing (60K), marketing (60K), foreman (60K) and a highly gifted "In Charge/Rigger" (60K) , and three talented employees that didn't get sick too often (120K divided by 3), and you used high end fabrics/composites, and played into the customers hand with rigging, power and honoured warranties, this could be something if the REAL NAME followed with their blessing :yes:

$440,000 in net wages a year and we are good. Make $10K on a SOLD boat (after lease, fax, cells,rigging and materials/supplies) translates into 44 boats a year less overhead...leaving out Corporate profitabilty.

Basically, 1 CLASSIC, one a week, out the door and the Legacy continues, of HIGH quality, high performance, and high customer satisfaction and generating "repeat offenders" . :)

Who knows ???

So let's grab 2 more employees and make 2 boats a week :DWell while I was laying up a hull on friday, I guess -ta - mated You'd have around 3k in glass, gel, and resin in a 16 hull. Based on what Im paying for materials these days, buying resin by the drum at around 2 dollars a pound for Gp resins and gelcoats, which I dont use. I use the iso stuff myself. The big guys buy resin by the tanker truck price for a huge price break. An 18 would only be a few hunderd more. You motor- drive folks can take it from here. Dealers buy what sells (hopefully). There's a left over red 2007 18 in Mass at a donzi dealer last time I checked that was at the boston boat show in 2007.............

[Cuda]

The problem is all the numbers are low. You've got taxes and insurance on top of salaries. Plus liability insurance. Plus workers comp. Plus plus plus.
I'd guess that a 60k employee, when everything is said and done, costs closer to 100k.
As far as Craig Barrie goes, He's done the boat thing from top to bottom... from scratch. I'd say he knows more than anyone of us about what to do right and wrong in both the business and boat building process.
Any which way, I really hope Donzi does very well in the future. It only can mean good news for us as owners of their products. :crossfing:


Please explain to me agaib about taxes and insurance. I've run my own business for 27 years without driving it into bankruptcy. Craig certainly knows more about building boats than I do, but I'd build them a still keep the company solvernt, which is sorely missing from his boat building resume.

He doesn'ty know jack about keeping a company solvernt in these hard times. Take Tiarra building wind props. Gotta learn to roll with the changes. You either roll with them, or be rolled over by them. I don't give a good god damn what you've done in the past. Tell me CB's resume over the past eight years,

[Cuda]

Matty, racing could help. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday......
They are going to buy a Skater, or an MTI. You can bet on that, if they buy one at all.

John Tomlinson said he wouldn't get back in that newly designed Cig for love nor money. He said, that it was too dangerous. So you can throw all the experience in the world at a problem, doesn't mean it's going to be fixed.

[Ghost]

Racing is a pure expense, so I have trouble imagining it makes as much sense in lean times. It adds a LOT of cost to the product. I suppose it could make sense in a big hi-po market, but it has nothing to do with realm of the classics, no? (Not sure if that was even what was being suggested earlier.)

While I agree with Vette's point about real costs, I felt like that only shifted Lenny's numbers, but didn't mean the concept wasn't solid.

You guys have me REALLY curious now on what it costs to build a Classic, with the talk about how little expense the hull is overall, and how much a Classic is nothing but hull and powertrain.




Anybody want to take a stab at this? I'll bound the assumptions as follows:

ASSUME a 22 Classic, for both material and labor costing.
ASSUME the motor and outdrive is already paid for, whatever it is. Only need installation labor. We can keep powertrain pricing separate for a lot of reasons.
ASSUME some sort of larger holding company that can get decent rates for purchasing glass, resin, etc.
ASSUME you already own the molds, jigs whatever for building the hull/deck/etc, all the glasswork.
So:
What should the material cost of the hull and deck (all the glasswork and structure) be?
Roughly how many hours of labor in #1 above?
Roughly what should the remaining material cost be (wiring, gauges, cables, seats, fittings, tank, etc, etc)?
Roughly how many hours should the remaining labor be, including putting in all the fittings/components AND installing the engine and drive?
Some of you folks have done so much of this, I figure you could get in the ballpark on #s 1-4 without a lot of time or effort thinking.

Mike

[Donziweasel]

Joe, once agian, I consider you a freind. I am confused by all this. You seem very upset at the fact that Donzi sold, and a rumor (thats all it is right now) that they will quit producing the 16 and 18. I think everyone is with you about stopping building the classics. I don't know a single member here who would be happy if they quit producing the 16 and 18.

Members are simply giving thier opinions on what Donzi should do, if they owned Donzi. Right now no one is buying boats. Before that, the hottest selling boats were small fishing boats like what Jim posted and the ski/wakeboard boats (bet Donzi coult build a sweet wakeboard boat). The classics, as much as we love them, are not really good for much. They are expensive, not family oriented and simply cruise and go fast. This is the day and age of the family/wake/fishing boat. Donzi went this route once with the Ragu's, and it was a disaster.

So, you have a company that just changed hands in a horrible economy with a line of boats that are impractical in the Classics. They did buy a leading name in performance boating. They have tried the family boats with dismal success. Where do you go from here? Just look at it from Donzi's view, not Joe's, John's, or Lenny's view. I am with you 100% buddy, if they quit building the Classics, it will be a VERY sad day for all of us.......:garfield:

As for racing, factory teams don't do it for fun. They do it to prove thier boats are the best built, most reliable and fastest out there. They hope this effort will equate to sales.

Take Dragon boats which has been a topic here. When you open the old home page, what do you get? A picture of a Dragon with the caption "2006 UIM P1 World Champions". On Fountains site, fourth tab is Fountain Racing.

On MTI's website home page you get this qoute "At Marine Technology Inc. we are fueled by the passion to build championship winning race, and award winning performance boats of the highest caliber! Step inside to learn all about the latest offerings and news from MTI".

At Skater, you get this home page qoute "At Douglas Marine, Skater has set the standard for over 35 years in both design and construction methods emulated by nearly every other catamaran manufacturer. We are the pace setters of the industry. Douglas Marine has built numerous winning raceboats for other offshore manufacturers that wanted to experience the thrill of hoisting the checkered flag. It could be wearing different stripes, but if it's at the finish line first, its probably a Skater Cat." - Peter Hledin, Owner and operator of Douglas Marine Corporation.

Point is, racing is a huge part of these companies marketing. Ghost, my point is, if you are going to introduce a big cat into a saturated market, the quickest way to sell it is to win races.......

To successfully utilize racing as a marketing tool, 1. You have to be able to afford to race. 2. You have to win races, and more importantly, championships. Ain't cheap, but can pay off big. Ask Reggie, as Fountain is built on it's racing and world record heritage.

[gold-n-rod]

Well while I was laying up a hull on friday, I guess -ta - mated You'd have around 3k in glass, gel, and resin in a 16 hull. Based on what Im paying for materials these days, buying resin by the drum at around 2 dollars a pound for Gp resins and gelcoats, which I dont use. I use the iso stuff myself. The big guys buy resin by the tanker truck price for a huge price break. An 18 would only be a few hunderd more. You motor- drive folks can take it from here. Dealers buy what sells (hopefully). There's a left over red 2007 18 in Mass at a donzi dealer last time I checked that was at the boston boat show in 2007.............

I have the manufacturing bill of material for my 16. It lists everything, I mean every last piece of material; resin, catalyst, putty, chop mat, plywood, balsa for the hull plus every other nut, bolt, accessory and system found on my boat. For example, there's 46.07 sq ft of 3/4" marine plywood and 41.93 of 1/2 marine plywood.

With it, someone in the know could easy cost out what it would cost to build a 16 Classic.

Interesting stuff, Maynard.

[gcarter]

So, why don't we try to put some meat on this skeleton?
Let's assume the average labor rate, including overhead is $50.00-$100.00/hr.
Tooling for a new boat is probably $150,000.00-$300,000.
I've never laid up a hull, and I don't want to. I'll leave it to Lenny, but he could probably tell us about how many hours are involved.
Several folks here probably know what a drive train costs.

Let's fill in the blanks.....

[Cuda]

Nah, it doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'd never buy a new boat anyway. I only pay cash or my toys, and I don't see me forking out a couple hundred grand anytime soon, or anyone that has that extra couple hundred grand laying around, sure isn't looking to prop up a boat company with it.

Not one of these Johny Come Latelys has any idea what it takes to make a go of it, but no matter how you crunch the perentages 9% of $300.000 is still zero.

I just don't think running away from the backbone of Donzi over all these years is a sound business decision. It may turn out to be one, I just don't think so.

[Cuda]

I leave the rest to the certified geniuses that are way smarter than this old ignernt tile guy.

[mike o]

I have the manufacturing bill of material for my 16. It lists everything, I mean every last piece of material; resin, catalyst, putty, chop mat, plywood, balsa for the hull plus every other nut, bolt, accessory and system found on my boat. For example, there's 46.07 sq ft of 3/4" marine plywood and 41.93 of 1/2 marine plywood.

With it, someone in the know could easy cost out what it would cost to build a 16 Classic.

Interesting stuff, Maynard. Post everything then.:kingme: cause if you where to sub the lamination, it would be priced by the lb.:yes: And work comp for laminators is very low on the scale.

[Lenny]

I've never laid up a hull, and I don't want to. I'll leave it to Lenny, but he could probably tell us about how many hours are involved.


4- 8 hour days, hull and deck WITHOUT coring... in my case, one guy...

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Hope things work out for them in these unsure times, one thing is for certain the donzi cat guys are gonna have to get inline behind the donzi Z guys it will be quite some time before either of them are eligible to participate in a dustoff - post #57



Fishin, you are invited and accepted to the lake george fall picnic as is every kind of donzi owner and other Aronow boat company owners ;)
:yes:

Thanx Matty! I wasn't sure if my love for the Classics alone was enough to be invited:).

[HOWARD O]

I see very few Donzi boats in these parts, but those I do see are fishing machines. Kingfish tournament boats and such. I don't know about other areas but I've got to believe it'd be their bread & butter? With the exception of maybe south Florida, do you suppose they sell more fishing boats than anything else?

[RickSE]

So where did Pro Line fish boats end up in this? ...

Pro Line is with the new investors and remains a sister company to Donzi Marine.

[Cuda]

Pro Line used to have their own brand. They were made in north Pinellas, or south Pasco County. It's been a while since I've gone that route from St Pete. My old boatin' buddy had an old 86 25 foot W/A Cuddy that he would lash two 55 gallon barells to the deck, to run to the middle grounds to dive and fish. It had a 10 foot beat. A pair of recent Merc 200's pushed it along at about 55 or so. It was much faster than I thought it had any right to be. Good solid boat too.

[VetteLT193]

Wow. Craig was taking a whirlwind of calls, and busting butt from every direction to move in the new direction Donzi is going. I found out they are trying to cut production to roughly 50 boats per year. big or small, whatever... 50 super high quality Donzis.

The decision is based upon what has been selling Vs. what has not been selling.

I was already impressed with Craig before I met him, after wards I can say I'm more impressed. He knows what's what off the top of his head and seems to be running the place. Super nice, unique, individual that I hope to talk to again.

[vrod02]

Whats the big deal? Did'nt read the thread but has capitalism all over it. Unlike the big three.:nilly:

[VetteLT193]

You mean build up production to 50 a year..

OOF. I gotta say, there are boats all over the property. They have in fact been building the hell out of the boats. Selling though.... well.... that's a minor detail it seems....

[roadtrip se]

OOF. I gotta say, there are boats all over the property. They have in fact been building the hell out of the boats. Selling though.... well.... that's a minor detail it seems....

serial numbers on those things sitting around the lot. I doubt many say 09 or 10. Repos from dealers, most likely.

[VetteLT193]

serial numbers on those things sitting around the lot. I doubt many say 09 or 10. Repos from dealers, most likely.

I agree. Unless they were just building like hell when the bottom fell out and the boats never even left the factory. either way... same difference. :nilly:

[VetteLT193]

So, where's the ZXO?? :D :D :D

Sweet home Tallahassee. Hanging out with it's long lost Minx brother. :yes:

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Pro Line is with the new investors and remains a sister company to Donzi Marine.
Thanx Rick, curiousity solved:yes:. Okay, next question, and forgive me for not knowing the relation (or lack there of), does the big Donzi line have anything to do with this (the Donzi yachts)? A guy was asking me at the sandbar the other day and I didn't know the answer. Anxiously waiting to be educated:confused:,
tom

[VetteLT193]

Thanx Rick, curiousity solved:yes:. Okay, next question, and forgive me for not knowing the relation (or lack there of), does the big Donzi line have anything to do with this (the Donzi yachts)? A guy was asking me at the sandbar the other day and I didn't know the answer. Anxiously waiting to be educated:confused:,
tom

Donzi yachts are made by Roscioli, over on the East coast. I'm not sure how the whole name thing works... Donzi could be getting money from Roscioli, or the other way around, or Donzi might just let them use it because it helps strengthen the brand name.

[Cuda]

Mr Staples owned, and still owns a 65 Donzi Yacht. There were only four built to the best of my recollection,

I don't know of any built on the east coast, but they may have leased the Donzi name.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Okay, so what's the real story here....I just get a message from my buddy who emailed American Marine Holdings to see if this is all true or not, and a guy named Lanny Morton responds back saying this is all rumor about Donzi and Pro Line being sold. He went on to say it is 'still business as usual'. Since Vette was just there and talked to Craig, who's right? Maybe this Lanny is not supposed to be saying anything? Just throwin it out there:confused:

[The Hedgehog]

Okay, so what's the real story here....I just get a message from my buddy who emailed American Marine Holdings to see if this is all true or not, and a guy named Lanny Morton responds back saying this is all rumor about Donzi and Pro Line being sold. He went on to say it is 'still business as usual'. Since Vette was just there and talked to Craig, who's right? Maybe this Lanny is not supposed to be saying anything? Just throwin it out there:confused:

I see that all the time in the banking industry. It probably has been sold.

[mrfixxall]

Okay, so what's the real story here....I just get a message from my buddy who emailed American Marine Holdings to see if this is all true or not, and a guy named Lanny Morton responds back saying this is all rumor about Donzi and Pro Line being sold. He went on to say it is 'still business as usual'. Since Vette was just there and talked to Craig, who's right? Maybe this Lanny is not supposed to be saying anything? Just throwin it out there:confused:

i spoke to a person at donzi and she stated that they shut down production in feburary and everybody at the plant was placed on unemployment.She also stated that the presidents office was cleared out and the new man in charge has moved in his new office..thats all i know.

[BUIZILLA]

Mr Staples owned, and still owns a 65 Donzi Yacht. There were only four built to the best of my recollection,

I don't know of any built on the east coast, but they may have leased the Donzi name. Jack's boat is hull #1, he dreamed it, he designed it, he built it, and his is the only hull made in Kevlar... there were only a handful or so of 65's made before the big hull Co was sold to Bob Roscioli. 65's were still made after the ownership change, then 58's, 73's, and 80's were also added. I'll be tinkering on hull #1 on Friday...

[RickSE]

Okay, so what's the real story here....

My dad talked to some old friends at the factory a few days ago, AMH is out and they're waiting on the new CEO.

[Last Tango]

Boy, wouldn't rock some heads if the new CEO turned out to be Reggie Fountain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:nilly:

LOL!

[Donzi Andy]

If I had to make a guess, Craig Barrie will be running the show at Donzi.

[VetteLT193]

If I had to make a guess, Craig Barrie will be running the show at Donzi.

I was reading through the thread and about to post the same thing...

Craig, at least from what I could tell from my visit, is running the show.


I didn't see any closing documents on the sale of Donzi, but if it isn't sold they are doing a hell of a job acting like it is... and I sure as hell didn't see Clint Eastwood walking around down there.

[Cuda]

Jack's boat is hull #1, he dreamed it, he designed it, he built it, and his is the only hull made in Kevlar... there were only a handful or so of 65's made before the big hull Co was sold to Bob Roscioli. 65's were still made after the ownership change, then 58's, 73's, and 80's were also added. I'll be tinkering on hull #1 on Friday...
Are you going to be in St Pete, or is the boat going to be in Miami? I've seen it at dock in St Pete, and it was still immaculately maintained.

[BUIZILLA]

it's at Maximo...

[mattyboy]

Buddy and Fishboy's mama had a baby blue 16. Fish had the fishboat, Buddy got a 22, and daddy got a 65 Donzi, They were all 1986. They also had a 24 Widow, I think, with no porthole. It was especially walked through production not to have a porthole cut into it.


Cuda in all my discussions with Fish( confirmed with his father) no 16 molds ever changed hands in the sale when the Staples purchased the company, His Mom did have a 16 Ob but it was an older one that they restored for her a year or so ago.

It is believed the chisholms dropped the model and "lost" the molds for the 16 due to a serious lawsuit from a couple in a 16 that was decapitated after jumping a barge wake and hitting the tow cable, the jist of the suit was if the boat had a windshield it might have protected them somewhat , funny how the 16 dropped from sight and a windshield was added as a standard to the 18 in the 80's ?????

not the first time I have heard of molds being "lost" or destroyed during the Chisholm era

Joe it wouldn't be a widow that would be an omc product it would have been a z25 or a z29

omc took over from the Staples in 88 and held donzi til 93 then AMH took over
the oldest U boat I have ever seen is a 95 so OMC was not replacing the classics they were trying to compete with them

[BUIZILLA]

Cuda in all my discussions with Fish( confirmed with his father) no 16 molds ever changed hands in the sale when the Staples purchased the company, His Mom did have a 16 Ob but it was an older one that they restored for her a year or so ago. nope... Jack sold their original one after owning it for a short time... it was the picture ad boat and they liked it, I think they bought it right after the ad pic's were taken... the one they have now Fish found in the Jacksonville area and they restored that one, they also have another unrestored one in hiding...

[mattyboy]

Jim,

I remember the ad and the boat Fish's mom was in the ad as well didn't realize it was not the same boat

[Cuda]

it's at Maximo...
That's where I saw it. Be sure to look up Donzigo over there. He lives only a couple canals from Maximo.

[handfulz28]

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090625/ARTICLE/906251047/2055/NEWS?Title=Private-investors-buy-Manatee-s-Donzi-Marine

[Donziweasel]

That article doesn't sound good for the Classics. Mostly focused on the big multi engine stuff. Didn't even mention them......:boggled:

[mike o]

Well John, I'm not sure about that. I look at it this way. AMH ran out of cash, experienced the tight credit thing like everybody else in business today and had too much inventory, shut down, and got (luckily) bought up. When things turn around in the economy, I would think they would build whatever people have the cash in hand to buy, what ever size model. Cash is cash... the way I see it. If they where extremely back ordered on the big stuff... well maybe. IMHO

[boxy]

I still stand by the wild a$$ speculative guess I sent to Poodle a couple of weeks ago ..... :D
It's so far out in left field that there is no reason to post it here, but we will see how it shakes out.

[zelatore]

I still stand by the wild a$$ speculative guess I sent to Poodle a couple of weeks ago ..... :D
It's so far out in left field that there is no reason to post it here, but we will see how it shakes out.

Talk about a tease!

[Donzi Josh]

Talk about a tease!

Yeah, really. Let's hear it!

[Greg K]

Just a couple links to articles from yesterday..
Bradentaon Herald (http://www.bradenton.com/business/story/1536701.html)
Hearald tribune (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090625/ARTICLE/906251047/2055/NEWS?Title=Buyers-snap-up-Donzi-ownership)

[FISHIN SUCKS]

.......
Okay, okay, so I'm not a slueth by any means, but is this where the tie-in happens with Bill Gates, aka 'private investor'? C'mon, you can do it, get a can of Bush's or Green Giant and spill these 'beans'!

[Donzigo]

Buizilla, you here this July 4th weekend?

I live in Maximo Moorings / Broadwater. I see that 65 foot Donzi everyday, when I drive past. It's a nice boat, for sure.

Best wishes for the future of Donzi and all those who work/worked there.

Richard aka "Donzigo"

[Cuda]

Buizilla, you here this July 4th weekend?
I live in Maximo Moorings / Broadwater. I see that 65 foot Donzi everyday, when I drive past. It's a nice boat, for sure.
Best wishes for the future of Donzi and all those who work/worked there.
Richard aka "Donzigo"
I hadn't heard from you in quite a while Richard.:shades:

[Lenny]

Okay, okay, so I'm not a slueth by any means, but is this where the tie-in happens with Bill Gates, aka 'private investor'?

He definately would not be any stranger to the Name, as Jeff Moore (aka Blew by You) lives about 2-3 houses away from him in Bellevue/Medina on Lake Washington.

He would have heard and seen him go out in his black X-18 with the ZZ4 on more than one occasion :yes: