time to build a motor

[zelatore]

The news is in, and it's not good: poor ring sealing on 4 cylinders means low compression and a lot of blow-by when the blower comes on boost. Time to do the motor.

Here's the results of tonight's compression test:

1- 123
2- 98
3- 115
4- 88
5- 81
6- 93
7- 120
8- 125

So now for the big question - do I just put it back stock, or are there some other worth-while improvements to make while I'm in the engine?

Our patient is a 2001 502 Mag with a Procharger M3.

Unfortunately, the budget isn't unlimited. While I'd love to do a big inch, aluminum head stroker, that's just not going to happen. But realistically, what sort of improvements might be worth looking into that wouldn't cost much more than just putting it back stock? To be honest, at this point I don't think I need much more power, but it's hard not to do something.

And just what can I get away with before I need to worry too much about the blower tuning? It's not like I've got anybody around here to hand it off to to sort out a custom set-up, so I suspect any upgrades would need to be kept to a minimum.

Although I did say when I bought this M3 I was deliberately going overkill to support a future 540....

Just speculating at this point. I doubt I'll get the motor out and torn down for a while. I need a break, and my Carver is feeling the lack of love from the spring Donzi thrash.

So talk to me. I'd like to at least start getting a budget together next week.

[SilverBack]

Don...I hate to hear that this is your problem!! I was pulling for something simple.

I will say as one that has gone the other way on a rebuild. If I did anything different I would lower the compression if I was buying pistons on my blower motor. That will allow you to run more boost with lower octane fuel and make more hp on the octane you are running now.

If you are not getting into aluminum heads I think that I would leave it stock. If you change just a few things you are going down a slippery slope. First you change just a few things then the "Procharger system" will not work like it was designed. Then you are into spending time on a dyno and re-tuning. Before you know it your few little changes have turned into some major money down the drain. I started with a 502 mag and let me say that the 502 mag has a steel crank and steel rods and does not need much to handle the power that the bolt on Procharger kit will make. I say just do a rebuild and put it back in and have fun with your new boat. You are looking at new props and other things anyway when you get it running! Plus when you start adding power from where you are now you start worrying about drives and if your XR is going to blow up and all kinds of other worries.

A rebuild is not that big of a deal and you can just put it back together and get going.

[Donziweasel]

Don, that really sucks. I know how hard you have worked on that beast. Now, when you say you are redoing the engine, that can mean a lot of different things. At bare minimum, it means a set of rings. Full on can mean grinding the crank, new pistons, honing the cylinders, etc...... You could always just change the bore and stroke to a 540, but not sure what to do about your fuel injection. Anyways, good luck and I hope you are back on the water soon, especailly before Powell. :crossfing::)

[The Hedgehog]

That does suck.

I am with Poodle on the whole tear down and see what you got.

You can do a good bit by freshening your base. I would think hard about the 540 route. You will want to do pistons and rods. May as well do the valves and heads. You can keep the iron heads. That will get max hp

If you don't want to do the 540 route you can do the rods, pistons and heads.

The cam is a tough one. Pretty much any more bump stick and you will be dropping the silent choice (I dunno why folks fight so hard to keep that). The extra displacement of the 540 or head work will probably cause it to revert anyway

You will need new injectors. That is not a big deal. I have some good answers in that dept. You don't need the huge injectors like I am using. More like what they use in the 500 EFI.

Basically if you freshen and use 500 EFI - type parts (excluding the manifold) and headwork it won't cost much more to make 700 hp vs going back stock at 575-600. That would be a nice number for that boat and a proven recipe. The good thing about that route is that there is a base ECU calibration already done for the combo and you can avoid the whole dyno scene. That will be your cheapest high performance route.

Good luck with the teardown.

[BUIZILLA]

unless it was extremely overheated at one point, i'd look for valve and seat integrity first before ripping into the bottom end... I just can't believe your whole numbers issue here is ring seal..

[VetteLT193]

Do you know it's the rings? Seems like it might just need a valve job.

[Carl C]

Did you do the leak-down test? If you know it's the rings then you are looking at a minimum of boring the cylds, installing a set of good lower compression blower pistons and up-grading the rod bolts.

It doesn't seem like your motor should be shot with so few hours:confused:.

[SilverBack]

That does suck.

I am with Poodle on the whole tear down and see what you got.

You can do a good bit by freshening your base. I would think hard about the 540 route. You will want to do pistons and rods. May as well do the valves and heads. You can keep the iron heads. That will get max hp

If you don't want to do the 540 route you can do the rods, pistons and heads.

The cam is a tough one. Pretty much any more bump stick and you will be dropping the silent choice (I dunno why folks fight so hard to keep that). The extra displacement of the 540 or head work will probably cause it to revert anyway

You will need new injectors. That is not a big deal. I have some good answers in that dept. You don't need the huge injectors like I am using. More like what they use in the 500 EFI.

Basically if you freshen and use 500 EFI - type parts (excluding the manifold) and headwork it won't cost much more to make 700 hp vs going back stock at 575-600. That would be a nice number for that boat and a proven recipe. The good thing about that route is that there is a base ECU calibration already done for the combo and you can avoid the whole dyno scene. That will be your cheapest high performance route.

Good luck with the teardown.


Please don't listen to Hedge Hog!! It is exactly this kind of thing that has cost me to spend WAY more than I ever wanted to spend.:wink:This boat should run up into the high 70's as you had it. There seems to be a spot with most of these boats that the boat wants to chine walk and gets to be a hand full and is not much fun to drive. If you have a couple hundred more ponies and can blast through that spot it is not a big deal but it would be miserable if you end up with a top speed that is right in the middle of this point. On my boat the point is in the low to mid 80's. I don't know where it is on a 22 Classic but you may want to ask around. I know that the 502 has steel crank and rods and forged pistons. I can't see how with those hours it would need to be anything other than freshened up and put back in the boat.


It is much more fun to play with your boat than it is to work on it!:yes:

[CJmike]

I would do a leak down test and see where you are losing the compression. If its through the heads I would pull them off and redo them. We did the heads on mine , its a long story. It took us a week and a half. This was after we dropped the motor in the boat. Pulled them Wednesday the one week and had it up and running Saturday the following week. It was heart breaking to have to pull the heads again after just redo'ing the motor but it was the only thing that could be done other than letting the boat sit. So I bucked up and got it done. Once that was done I finally got it out on the water. Then the smiles showed up.:)

[zelatore]

Yes, before making any real judgements I'll have to tear it down and get a good look at it.

When I started doing the leak-down I could hear air out the breather. I was having a heck of a time trying to get everything to work out and some of my numbers looked unreliable, so I didn't continue with it and switched to doing a simple compression test. I ran 100 lbs air regulated to 90 lbs. I don't recall the numbers, I think I was getting around 65 lbs in the cylinders.

Purely speculation, but the best case would be a valve job. That could account for the compression. But it doesn't account for hearing air out the breather and/or the oil out the dipstick. So add to that 'best case' doing a ring job.

If you're going to do that, you're pulling the motor and stripping it bare. While you've got the pistons out you can take a good look at them and the cylinder walls. At a minimum, I'd end up honing the cylinders. I think I still have an old 3-stone cylinder hone in the bottom of the tool chest, but really it would be better to have a machine shop do it. While they've got it, they can hot tank and magnaflux-not that I have any reason to suspect a cracked block but it's not much money to have it checked and why wouldn't you do it at this time?

And I might as well have the shop install new cam bearings as I don't have a driver for those. I've done them on other engines before using a long extension and big socket, but that's not the best way to build a performance engine.

I'm of course assuming here that the cylinders and pistons look OK and I could re-use them. If either looks bad, then it makes sense to consider going bigger since the costs will be basically the same. I could also look at lowering the compression.

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

The way I see it, there's two choices. Go back stock with a valve job, hone, and new rings/gaskets/bearings, or build more motor like Hedge suggested above. I can swing the stock rebuilt without worrying about budget as it's pretty inexpensive. It also has the advantage of not trying to break any new ground - it should bolt right back together and run.

On the other hand, if I think I'll want more motor in the future this is the time to do it. Yeah, it will cost more up front and require extra work to dial it in, but it would be cheaper and easier than doing it a second time.

I'll be thinking about this over the weekend. Right now I'm leaning toward just putting it back stock....after all, this combo already pushed me past 82 on the limiter and with more prop and seat time it should easily run mid 80's. Do I really need to built a 90 mph boat? The answer is no.

(the second question of course is do I WANT to build a 90 mph boat? The answer to that isn't so clear:kingme:)

[RickSE]

I agree with SilverBack, put in some good quality forged pistons and verify the compression, drop it if you have to for the blower. Switch to HD rods if you can, make the valvetrain and oiling system bullet proof. Reuse the block and heads, blend and hand work the runners in the heads and port match the intake and heads. The blending & port matching is a piece of cake, you can do it yourself and it'll make a big difference on the top end. Get it machined and assemble yourself.

The location of the air leak is telling you whats bad. I did a leakdown on the 350 in my old 18 and had air leaking out a few exh valves. I pulled the heads, lapped the valves and no more leak. If you've got air coming out the breathers then it has to be the rings. I ran to 100psi on the supply regulator to get a true % on the second regulator. Also, putting heavy weight oil in the cylinders can sometimes seal up the rings to help you confirm if it's the rings on a leak down test.

[CJmike]

This looks like a really good deal.

540 Gen VI exchange.

http://www.atecoengines.com/Catalog.aspx?CategoryID=5

[MOP]

Oil up those cylinders to see if the hold any better that may give you a better idea of valves/rings condition. If it looks like rings, grab a can of Mercury carbon buster, double the time in the cans instructions you may just get a pleasant surprise. I followed the other post and was leaning toward stuck rings, there is a chance I am right. About $10 to give it a try, I have seen it do some pretty neat stuff.

Phil

[SilverBack]

Don..Phil may be on to something. That engine does not have many hours on it. My engine had more hours and looked brand new when I pulled it down. It is worth a try and if on the chance that it works you could still make it to lake Powell.

If that does not work I think you are on the right track. If nothing is damaged...Rings, Bearings, Hone the cylinders, new cam bearings and a new oil pump and maybe a valve job. Put it back together and not too big of a deal. It is a very slippery slope when you start changing things. You can talk yourself into all of the...well if I am doing this then I have to go ahead and do that and so on. It never seems to stop.

Once again...good luck!!!

[MOP]

I really believe in the stuff, but in my opinion you have an temperature issue to be able to use the product. Most of the blower guys run their engines way to cold to suite me, I know the engine builders recommend it to inhibit detonation. But to me it leads to build up of all kinds of engine sludge. I bet $100 Randy's engine is pretty darn clean inside being closed cooled. If you do try my idea I would run it on the hose but with minimal flow just enough to protect the pump and exhaust hoses, wait for some decent engine temp then do the deed. I can not count how many engines I have breathed life back into, raw cooled engines literally kill them selves over time.

Phil

[yeller]

Sorry to hear the troubles Don.

I'd go stock. You'll be in high 80's with that setup.


Probably not many would agree, but I'd hone, rings and bearings. The only upgrade I'd do is better valves. Back in the water in a couple weeks.
Personally, I wouldn't even go the magnaflux route. Don't see the need for it.

[mrfixxall]

Zel did you mess with the valve adjustment? they may be to tight..

[Planetwarmer]

Zel did you mess with the valve adjustment? they may be to tight..

That would be worth checking! A leak down test would be too! Unless of course you just have money to burn and want to "freshen up".

[zelatore]

OK, I'll be heading home again tonight after work so I'll shoot a little oil into it and re-test.

I'm not familer with Merc Carbon Buster, but I'll check with my local Merc disty to see if he has any on the shelf.

Yes, it runs COLD. It always ran cold, even before pulling the thermostat for the blower. Currently, it hardly moves the temp gauge above 100. I'll never get it hot on the hose with no load, but I can slow the water flow down to the point it just lubricates the impeller and keeps the exhaust temp in check and see what I get.

No, I didn't run the valves. I didn't open the long block at all.

BTW, Kieth what would you know about a slippery slope :wink:

Now to google up some Carbon Buster. Anybody got a link to this stuff so I can at least know what I'm looking for?

[mrfixxall]

OK, I'll be heading home again tonight after work so I'll shoot a little oil into it and re-test.
I'm not familer with Merc Carbon Buster, but I'll check with my local Merc disty to see if he has any on the shelf.
Yes, it runs COLD. It always ran cold, even before pulling the thermostat for the blower. Currently, it hardly moves the temp gauge above 100. I'll never get it hot on the hose with no load, but I can slow the water flow down to the point it just lubricates the impeller and keeps the exhaust temp in check and see what I get.
No, I didn't run the valves. I didn't open the long block at all.
BTW, Kieth what would you know about a slippery slope :wink:
Now to google up some Carbon Buster. Anybody got a link to this stuff so I can at least know what I'm looking for?


Zel its called power tune by mercury part #92-858080k01

http://www.westmarine.com/1/1/16908-power-tune-engine-cleaner-13-oz-from-mercury-marine.html

[BUIZILLA]

at this point it would be worth completely loosening up the valvetrain to do a proper leakdown..

[zelatore]

at this point it would be worth completely loosening up the valvetrain to do a proper leakdown..

Perhaps this weekend. It's a big PITA to get the valve covers off thanks to all the BS piled on top of the motor. Heck, I can barely even see the suckers under all the wiring and plumbing.

Fix - thanks for the link. I'll pick up a can or two this afternoon.

[mrfixxall]

Perhaps this weekend. It's a big PITA to get the valve covers off thanks to all the BS piled on top of the motor. Heck, I can barely even see the suckers under all the wiring and plumbing.
Fix - thanks for the link. I'll pick up a can or two this afternoon.


Get the engine really hot first! or this stuff wont work..then you have to rev the chit out of the engine to clean all the stuff off the valves..you may want to do it in the water.

[VetteLT193]

Do you just spray the Power Tune stuff into the intake? Just curious

[mrfixxall]

Do you just spray the Power Tune stuff into the intake? Just curious


Yes! whyle its running and hot! rev engine 1600 to 2000 rpm,use 2/3 of can then drown motor and kill engine with the rest of the can..

works great on outboards too..

[SilverBack]

OK, I'll be heading home again tonight after work so I'll shoot a little oil into it and re-test.

I'm not familer with Merc Carbon Buster, but I'll check with my local Merc disty to see if he has any on the shelf.

Yes, it runs COLD. It always ran cold, even before pulling the thermostat for the blower. Currently, it hardly moves the temp gauge above 100. I'll never get it hot on the hose with no load, but I can slow the water flow down to the point it just lubricates the impeller and keeps the exhaust temp in check and see what I get.

No, I didn't run the valves. I didn't open the long block at all.

BTW, Kieth what would you know about a slippery slope :wink:

Now to google up some Carbon Buster. Anybody got a link to this stuff so I can at least know what I'm looking for?


Don..you know that I am the poster boy for slippery slopes!!! I thought that you would get a kick out of that. Some people don't realize how pissed off you are already when your boat is messed up and you are trying to go to an event and you have put so much work into the thing and then...something happens..then they give you advice without thinking about your state of mind at the time. .......... :wink:


Don't go off the deep end...keep your cool and do it the simple way...it is no fun blowing your whole summer...the thing will put a huge smile on your face the way that it is without any more upgrades!!


I don't know how much fuel you have in your tank but I like to run "Sea Foam" though my engines after they set for a while. I run a can through them every once in a while anyway. I had oil coming through the dipstick on my 350 mag and it was running really rough on the Ragazza and I put a couple cans of Sea Foam in the tank and got it warmed up and poured a can through the carburetor and it ran fine from there on out. Never had any more trouble. I ran Sea Foam from then on.


http://www.seafoamsales.com/motor-treatment/index.html


I am sure that the Mercury stuff that Phil is talking about is much better. But you can get SeaFoam at most parts store.

[MOP]

Have not tried SeaFoam but also have heard good things!

[zelatore]

Tried to bail out of the office early but only got out around 4:30. Thanks to the lovely bay-area traffic and the fact I was in the truck instead of on the bike, I got home about 6:45.

Re-ran the low cylinders with a few squirts of oil in them.

2 went from 98 to 107
4 went from 88 to 95
6 went from 93 to 105
5 stayed the same at 81

This of course fits with my working theory that rings are the problem thus letting the crankcase pressurize under boost.

I picked up a couple cans of Merc mechanic in a bottle to try as suggested. I don't have high hopes, but what the heck it's cheap and easy.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward just a stock refresh. But you know us liberals....we're flip-floppers. I could change my mind by the time I finish dinner. :wink:

[Carl C]

You can try the carbon buster stuff but I doubt it would help. Another trick is to get the engine hot, rev it up and trickle water into the intake. It's called "thermal shock". The cold liquid hits the hot parts and breaks the carbon loose. That's basically what the stuff in the can is doing.

Anytime you ream the ridges, hone and re-ring a worn engine it is a crapshoot. Even if you check the bore with an inside micrometer or telescoping gauges first. I have had enough of these jobs fail to seat the rings that I will never re-ring an engine again without having it bored oversize first. This would be especially true with an extreme duty engine like one in a boat. Find a good local automotive machine shop, car dealers might be able to tell you who they use, have the block bored .030 over and install a set of good blower pistons.

[SilverBack]

I did not bore my block. It had no wear and looked good so we just honed it and went back with the stock bore.

[Carl C]

I did not bore my block. It had no wear and looked good so we just honed it and went back with the stock bore.

I've had mixed results. If Don finds broken or carboned up rings and there is not a large ridge at the top of the cyld then a re-ring will probably work. I'd still replace the pistons to drop compression ratio to about 8:1. If there is any noticeable wear (ridge), I'd get it bored. It's not a big deal and it will seal like new again and it won't be a 502 anymore;). You'll pick up a few cubes:).

[Just Say N20]

Our local NAPA store has a machine shop. They rebuilt both the Crusader 350/270 engines from our Wellcraft. Went 30 over on both. Seemed to do a good job, and weren't too pricey either.

Granted, these weren't HO engines, but one of the local car dealers told me that was who did that type of work for them. I wouldn't have thought of them. Parts, yes. Engine block machining/work, no. But they do.

Good luck. I know how anxious you are to get to Powell. Hopefully the "canned magic" works. :yes:

It did get me thinking though. I can visualize spraying/pouring stuff into the top of a carb with the air filter off. I can't visualize how you would accomplish this on a supercharged engine. :confused: Do you disconnect stuff, so you can get access to the top of the carb, by-passing all the blower plumbing?

[MOP]

Carl the water trick is dangerous, I know it is rare but there have bent rods and busted pistons not good. It does cause mild cause detonation which blasts the carbon off. I have used it my self in the past but seeing what happened to others no way anymore. Zel needs to try to free the ring water will not get there, a very stron solvent is needed.

Zel pull the plugs on the weak ones and shoot a bunch of the cleaner and let it sit over night, put rags around so when you bump not spin it over the junk does not get all over everything. Have a hose ready and wash the residue away and out the hull drain, this stuff is caustic must be flushed away. Do not do it in the water, first off you will not be able to control the temp to get it hot enough and it will kill fish!!!!

I have taken very badly carboned outboard pistons and soaked them over night, the come out very clean with the rings nice and loose. SeaFoam may do the same I just don't know.

[BUIZILLA]

screw the the twisty blades..

Complete 572 - Offshoreonly.com (http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/swap-shop/210155-complete-572-a.html)

[mphatc]

Zelatore.

A proper leakdown test is required. Pulling the rocker covers and going through this work can also help if you end up doing a tear down, as the data will help you to ID the problem spots.

A few quick questions, as I only reviewed this thread w/o reading every post in detail . .
Was the Compression test done on an engine at operating temp?
Fuel supply, are you 100% certain none of these cylinders were washed with fuel during or prior to the compression test?

Lubro Moly sells a product called "Motor Oil Saver". I have successfully used this in MANY engines from low mileage BMW M1 engines, ( M88 1/B 3.5) to stock American V8s, and my own Porsche 911SC to free up stuck piston rings, solving blow by and rough idles, and oil consumption. After 25+ years of building and racing all sorts of engines, I never believed in snake oils . . but when I had a problem 3 years ago with the BMW M1 engine , ( a 6 cylinder 24 valve with a rebuild cost of close to $20K + ) I was persueded to try this stuff. It's worth the attempt!

A good tech can tell during a leak down test if you have sticky rings and or other issues . . it's all in the procedure!

Mario L.

[mrfixxall]

Hey zel i found a good deal for ya!!! and its not that far of a drive:)

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/pts/1215359630.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqfjKoiyynY&feature=related

[MOP]

Mario that is half of his problem, he barely make 100 degrees running. That is what has me thinking cold stuck rings that may free up with solvents. Phil

[blackhawk]

When I started doing the leak-down I could hear air out the breather.

When you say breather are you talking the intake? When you do a leakdown and can hear the air coming out the intake then it's an intake valve leaking, if you hear it in the exhaust it's an exhaust valve and if it's coming out the valve cover fills it's the rings.

[olredalert]

------$9400 for a 572. Not bad at all. And the upside to this approach would be that you still have your old motor which has value......Bill S

[BUIZILLA]

read carefully the parts list of the one I posted....

now where's that black Legend again?

[The Hedgehog]

You guys are funny. That looks like one of those crate Dynoflow packages. It may or may not be a good deal depending on who did the assembly.

He just bought a new blower package for north of $5k and you guys are suggesting that he scrap that and his hard work to see if he can cram in a crate tall deck (think about moving the exhaust holes, etc)under the hatch of a 22. He could freshen in a stock format and bring his engine to blower specs WAY easier than that and still have a boat that runs in the high 80's.

[SilverBack]

You guys are funny. That looks like one of those crate Dynoflow packages. It may or may not be a good deal depending on who did the assembly.

He just bought a new blower package for north of $5k and you guys are suggesting that he scrap that and his hard work to see if he can cram in a crate tall deck (think about moving the exhaust holes, etc)under the hatch of a 22. He could freshen in a stock format and bring his engine to blower specs WAY easier than that and still have a boat that runs in the high 80's.

I was wondering the same thing. The worst case he needs a rebuild. If he does anything but refresh the stock motor he is into tuning headaches trying to get the blower tune. The procharger kit is made to work with a stock 502 MAG. Not these other engines.

[BUIZILLA]

The news is in, and it's not good: Time to do the motor.

Just speculating at this point. I doubt I'll get the motor out and torn down for a while. I need a break, and my Carver is feeling the lack of love from the spring Donzi thrash.

So talk to me. I'd like to at least start getting a budget together next week.


You guys are funny. That looks like one of those crate Dynoflow packages. It may or may not be a good deal depending on who did the assembly.

He just bought a new blower package for north of $5k and you guys are suggesting that he scrap that and his hard work to see if he can cram in a crate tall deck (think about moving the exhaust holes, etc)under the hatch of a 22. He could freshen in a stock format and bring his engine to blower specs WAY easier than that and still have a boat that runs in the high 80's. he asked for opinion's... :wrench:

[SilverBack]

he asked for opinion's... :wrench:

Jim..I am scared to get into this because you have been right every time on my boat. Zel did ask for opinions but Hedge and I have both been through the PAIN of doing a built engine with a procharger. I will snowball out of control before you know what is happening. Once you start you can't go back. It can really piss you off sometimes!!:wink: We just want everybody to know that he has an M-3 Procharger kit that was designed for a 502 MAG that he just bought. I don't think anyone would not wnat YOUR advice on something. I know that I want it every time that I am doing something to my boat. Like I said...it is uncanny how you always end up being right in the end!!:yes:

[zelatore]

Yesterday I thought I'd have an easy day at work and bail by 12. Instead it turned into a long day and I put in 12 hours....meaning I was away from the computer all day.

I get back on-line this morning and find out you guys have now got me buying complete 700 hp motors....geez!

Actually, if I had a spare 10 or 12K laying around, I'd consider it. Buiz's motor was in Vegas while the other was in Phoenix, so their both kinda-sorta close.

But even though I could sell the the 502 and the procharger to recoup some of the cost I don't think I'm going to go that way. It's tempting, but the funds just aren't in place right now.

Now Buiz, had you posted that BEFORE I started this whole exercise.....well, that would be a different story. That looks to be a very complete package. Just about as close to a bolt-in as I would likely find for something like that, although I'm sure there would be a number of issues I've not considered. There always are.

[zelatore]

Zelatore.
A proper leakdown test is required. Pulling the rocker covers and going through this work can also help if you end up doing a tear down, as the data will help you to ID the problem spots.
A few quick questions, as I only reviewed this thread w/o reading every post in detail . .
Was the Compression test done on an engine at operating temp?
Fuel supply, are you 100% certain none of these cylinders were washed with fuel during or prior to the compression test?
Lubro Moly sells a product called "Motor Oil Saver". I have successfully used this in MANY engines from low mileage BMW M1 engines, ( M88 1/B 3.5) to stock American V8s, and my own Porsche 911SC to free up stuck piston rings, solving blow by and rough idles, and oil consumption. After 25+ years of building and racing all sorts of engines, I never believed in snake oils . . but when I had a problem 3 years ago with the BMW M1 engine , ( a 6 cylinder 24 valve with a rebuild cost of close to $20K + ) I was persueded to try this stuff. It's worth the attempt!
A good tech can tell during a leak down test if you have sticky rings and or other issues . . it's all in the procedure!
Mario L.

Well, I don't know that I'd call myself a 'good tech', but I do what I can...and I do enjoy the fact that I'm the only guy who's laid hands on this project so far. I do however realize that there is/will come a time when I'll need to defer to real experts.

The motor was warm but certainly not fully up to temp when the compression test was done. When I did the second test on the 4 low cylinders it was cold as that was a quicky done the next day.

I pretty much have the same opinion as you do on the magic bottles - probably a waste of time, but it's cheap and easy enough to do, so what's to loose when the next move would be to pull it out anyway?


When you say breather are you talking the intake? When you do a leakdown and can hear the air coming out the intake then it's an intake valve leaking, if you hear it in the exhaust it's an exhaust valve and if it's coming out the valve cover fills it's the rings.

I could hear air out the valve cover oil fill and the PCV vent, so that does match up with what I expected in terms of the blowby I was having. Then doing a second compression test with some oil in the low cylinders brought compression up on 3 of them, also indicating rings.

Today's plan is to fire it up and run it on the hose with a low water flow to try to get the temps up without melting the impeller. I'll pull off the intake tube so I've got a direct shot into the throttle body, and give it go with the Merc spray. Then I'll pull the valve covers and try the leak-down again. Not looking forward to that since they're buried under a ton of crap on top of the engine, but like everything it's just a matter of getting started.

I'm sure the neighbors will love the sound of the engine on fast-idle in the drive for 30 minutes or so. :angel:

Speaking of which, I've pretty much decided if I do pull the motor back out the Captain's Call isn't going back in. I never use the thing, and it makes the back of the motor so damn tight it's a PITA to see/work on anything. Plus it's just ugly.

Now why can't I get that engine posting from Buiz out of my head? Damn you! :wink:

[blackhawk]

Today's plan is to fire it up and run it on the hose with a low water flow to try to get the temps up without melting the impeller. I'll pull off the intake tube so I've got a direct shot into the throttle body, and give it go with the Merc spray. Then I'll pull the valve covers and try the leak-down again. Not looking forward to that since they're buried under a ton of crap on top of the engine, but like everything it's just a matter of getting started.

You might be surprised with the merc spray. I've used Seafoam on some friend's boats with great results. And if MOP says it has worked for him then I believe it 100%. I would follow his advice to the "T". Good luck and I'm hoping for something simple...and cheap!

[SilverBack]

Zel...if you do modify your engine and you are going to have to dyno the engine to tune it anyway...I still have that Gorilla induction system with the super chiller and carbon fiber top hat. It flows a lot better than the 502 mag intake. It looks so much better than what I have now and I would still be running it if I wouldn't have tuned my engine with the 500 EFI intake.


http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55601


I will let you have it really ...really...really cheap if you go that route!!

[zelatore]

That does look pretty damn cool....

Problem is, although you might sell that part really, really, really cheap, and the engine in Buiz's post might be a heck of a deal, I'd then have to think about a new drive, and a stronger transom, and strengthening the stringers...

Oops....there goes $25,000

And while I'm sure MasterCard would be glad to help me with that, I kinda like that I don't owe any money on my 'toys' (boat and bikes).

But you guys are sorely tempting me. And I'm weak, so very weak...must...fight...urge for mega-hp!:angel:

[zelatore]

Just finished running the Merc spray through the motor.

I got it up to about 180* on the hose by only using low water flow. Then slowly sprayed about 2/3 of the can into the throttle body at 1200 rpm per the instructions. Then I cranked it up to 1800 rpm and tried to drown the motor with the rest of the can - only it wouldn't kill it. So I quickly grabbed the second can and sprayed both at once. STILL didn't kill it, although it stumbled and complained a lot. Eventually, I just killed the key.

Left it sit for about 10 minutes, then fired it up (a little hard to start after this) and ran it at 3000-3500 rpm (in gear, but no prop) for 7 or 8 minutes. I still kept the water flow low so the temps were between 160 and 180. After that, I turned up the hose water flow again and brought the temp down under 140 at idle before shutting it off.

I'm letting it cool further before moving on to step 2 which will be pulling the valve covers and doing a proper leak-down test.

The annoying thing about this exercise was I again pumped drive oil out the reservoir. Quite a bit of it. WTF??? I thought I might have found the problem with that last time.

I also learned that if you put a towel down on your nice shiny diamond plate alongside the engine so you don't scratch it while you climb in and out, then take off the blower output tube so you'll have access to the throttle body for the spray, all that hot air from the big hair dryer at high speed will pick it up and threaten to blow it into the belts. :shocking: Luckily I grabbed it before anything nasty happened. I bet that would have made a bad sound.

[mrfixxall]

Just finished running the Merc spray through the motor.
I got it up to about 180* on the hose by only using low water flow. Then slowly sprayed about 2/3 of the can into the throttle body at 1200 rpm per the instructions. Then I cranked it up to 1800 rpm and tried to drown the motor with the rest of the can - only it wouldn't kill it. So I quickly grabbed the second can and sprayed both at once. STILL didn't kill it, although it stumbled and complained a lot. Eventually, I just killed the key.
Left it sit for about 10 minutes, then fired it up (a little hard to start after this) and ran it at 3000-3500 rpm (in gear, but no prop) for 7 or 8 minutes. I still kept the water flow low so the temps were between 160 and 180. After that, I turned up the hose water flow again and brought the temp down under 140 at idle before shutting it off.
I'm letting it cool further before moving on to step 2 which will be pulling the valve covers and doing a proper leak-down test.
The annoying thing about this exercise was I again pumped drive oil out the reservoir. Quite a bit of it. WTF??? I thought I might have found the problem with that last time.
I also learned that if you put a towel down on your nice shiny diamond plate alongside the engine so you don't scratch it while you climb in and out, then take off the blower output tube so you'll have access to the throttle body for the spray, all that hot air from the big hair dryer at high speed will pick it up and threaten to blow it into the belts. :shocking: Luckily I grabbed it before anything nasty happened. I bet that would have made a bad sound.


Zel, does your transm look black and chitty? if it was then the merc stuff worked!

[blackhawk]

I'm letting it cool further before moving on to step 2 which will be pulling the valve covers and doing a proper leak-down test.


If the covers are that tough to get at I would leave them on.

[MOP]

Should have let it sit a good 45 minutes 10 may not do much! Like I said earlier I would have loaded up the weak ones and let it sit over night, carbon is some hard stuff takes a while to dissolve. Phil

[zelatore]

Submitted for your consideration....









When I started to pull the starboard valve cover I noticed some goo under the breather. uh-oh. Went ahead and pulled it. I don't think I'll bother with the leak-down at this point. I'll head straight to removal.

[mrfixxall]

Submitted for your consideration....
When I started to pull the starboard valve cover I noticed some goo under the breather. uh-oh. Went ahead and pulled it. I don't think I'll bother with the leak-down at this point. I'll head straight to removal.


AUT OOOOOOO! did your oil cooler take a $hit? or mabe you blew a head gasket?

check between the center two cylinders and make sure you didnt scorch the block! 502s are notorious for that...invest in a good set of head studs (ARP) only when you put it back together.

[MOP]

None of the above, I have seen this time and time again on engines running to cold. The photos are somewhat reminiscent of Mr. Hogs engine, raw cooled a 140 they get pretty mucky you guys run right close to 100. There is no way to cook off the moisture so. I know you huffer guys make more power cold but at what cost? Griz runs closed cooling with a huffer and has racked a ton of hours, running them cold like most do shortens engine life dramatically! Side bet you will find little more then normal wear but some badly stuck rings!

[zelatore]

I suspect it's a head gasket. The fact that 3 of the 4 low cylinders were side by side was one possible indicator. The oil cooler is new. That doesn't mean it's not leaking, but it's less likely.

Tomorrow I'll go ahead and pull the motor. This isn't too bad - I was expecting to do so anyway as the title of this thread indicates.

Once it's out, I'll get it apart and see what's really going on. Then I'll be able to plan the rebuild. Despite the fun of day-dreaming about big cubic inches or 700+ hp custom motors, I really need to just put it back more or less stock and keep the cost in check. I do think it will be worth looking into minor mods that will increase reliability/durability, such as the ARP studs you mentioned. And if I need to boar it and/or replace pistons it might be worth dropping compression slightly. I could also consider roller rockers for some 'free' HP, and I'll probably port match the intake and exhaust as that only costs time and a couple of new burrs for the die grinder.

[mrfixxall]

I suspect it's a head gasket. The fact that 3 of the 4 low cylinders were side by side was one possible indicator. The oil cooler is new. That doesn't mean it's not leaking, but it's less likely.
Tomorrow I'll go ahead and pull the motor. This isn't too bad - I was expecting to do so anyway as the title of this thread indicates.
Once it's out, I'll get it apart and see what's really going on. Then I'll be able to plan the rebuild. Despite the fun of day-dreaming about big cubic inches or 700+ hp custom motors, I really need to just put it back more or less stock and keep the cost in check. I do think it will be worth looking into minor mods that will increase reliability/durability, such as the ARP studs you mentioned. And if I need to boar it and/or replace pistons it might be worth dropping compression slightly. I could also consider roller rockers for some 'free' HP, and I'll probably port match the intake and exhaust as that only costs time and a couple of new burrs for the die grinder.


ZEL, when the heads are in the machine shop and if your going to install roller rockers have them open up the rocker stud threads to 7/16..the arp rocker studs which you will be installing have a 3/8 (lower part of the stud) which thread into the heads and from what i hear are a little weak..

[Carl C]

Sounds like a good plan. The boring is no big deal. Don't take it to a race engine shop, just find a local parts store that does the engine machining for the local shops. I'd order up a set of .030 over blower pistons from Summit Racing. Do what you can afford to the valve train. Replace the rod bolts with ones from Summit and get the best head gaskets available. My 525 (502) has "cometic" head gaskets. Get to work and get it running.

[mrfixxall]

Sounds like a good plan. The boring is no big deal. Don't take it to a race engine shop, just find a local parts store that does the engine machining for the local shops. I'd order up a set of .030 over blower pistons from Summit Racing. Do what you can afford to the valve train. Replace the rod bolts with ones from Summit and get the best head gaskets available. My 525 (502) has "cometic" head gaskets. Get to work and get it running.

um yes it is!:) if he is going to bore it to 4.500 spend the xtra $$$ and have them use the deck plates so the bore is true and square,they may as well change the main caps to billit and line hone it too.then with the forged crank he has in the bottom end will be good for 1000hp:biggrin.:

Zel if it needs boaring and your changing the pistons you may want to consider changing the rods to a stronger one and add a little legnth to them..you can use your stock 4'' crank and go with a 6.385 rod and piston combo. its good for a few xtra ponys too.

theirs goes your credit card..

[SilverBack]

ZEL, when the heads are in the machine shop and if your going to install roller rockers have them open up the rocker stud threads to 7/16..the arp rocker studs which you will be installing have a 3/8 (lower part of the stud) which thread into the heads and from what i hear are a little weak..


Don...it sounds like you are going about things in a rational manner. You don't need to go overkill. Remember this engine has steel crank, steel rods and forged pistons already. The bottom end is plenty strong enough. I think that I would consider doing what Mr. Fix says here. I upgraded mine to ARP rocker studs and still had the tip of one break and that ruined a weekend of boating for me and a trip to New Orleans and more money. I know that I am running a bigger cam and that was a freak deal for an ARP to do that but it would be good insurance. I know that the 502 mag intakes are known for rotting out underneath so check it out and see if it looks good. If that is what it is and you need a new one you can have the Gorilla setup for just the shipping. .... I know how it is to have to get into a project when you are not ready for it ....you were the nicest guy when I was dealing with you on those stainless letters and the stuff is in the shop collecting dust on the newly polished aluminum anyway! :yes: Let me know!:wink:

[farmer tx]

Don before pulling the engine soak the cylinders for a couple of days with solvent, use diesel if you have it. Like Phil said low temp will look like that every time. Rerun up to temp, and do another compression test.:crossfing:

[BUIZILLA]

maybe I missed something along the way.... but how long was that engine run that cold? 2 days or 2 years?

something ain't right... I agree completely with TX.... you told us it ran almost 80 mph last week with 40-50% less compression that it was when new and running 70+??

the coagulation you see is fresh water (ambient) moisture... very common... not salt water from a blown gasket... it is salt water cooled right?

where's my can of Bon Ami..

[SilverBack]

Will the milk shake go away if the rings a re- seated and the engine oil temp gets up to where it should be?

Buiz...I take it that by the remark about Bon AMI that you would put some BON AMI in the effected cylinders and let it re-hone the cylinders so to speak? I think that it was MOP that had talked about them doing that in WWII.

IF the engine really has low hours and the only problem is the milk shake and the rings seating then I say go for it Don!!

[BUIZILLA]

interesting topic over on SOS about basically the same thing, except this oil level was higher on inspection, you said yours wasn't that way..

anyways... HP500 carnage - SeriousOffshore.com (http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7621)

[zelatore]

The engine has about 170 hrs on it per the scan tool.

Yes, it's raw water cooled. And yes, it was clearly in salt before I got it. I haven't taken it to any salt; all fresh water. So let's say that's 120 hrs of salt and 50 of fresh.

It's always run cold. Before the blower I had a thermostat in it, but I still rarely saw 150*. It's possible the thermostat was stuck open, but then again I tend to run in pretty cold water. Here in the delta, on the hose, or at Powell, the water temps will be in the 50s and 60s.

Since the oil in the pan (via the dipstick) looks clear, it's possible this is just a severe case of condensation. Let's hope it is.

But water in the oil was never really my problem. The problem is blowing the oil out the dipstick. We know there's only a few things that could cause that - mainly rings, or a head gasket or intake gaskets. With low hours, and an engine that was pushing me to 72+ mph early this year w/o the blower then 82+ mph with the blower, it's hard to imagine there's too much wrong. But the low compression readings combined with the oil problem tells us there is something not right.

I went ahead and tried some of the carbon spray because 'what's to loose?'. But I'm thinking I'll go ahead and pull the motor back out and do it right. Although there are several tricks I could still try (soaking it overnight in carbon spray, BonAmi, etc) I no longer have a deadline hanging over my head since I have cancelled my Powell trip next week. (Michele will be the first to tell you I've been MUCH easier to live with this weekend than I have for the last couple months since I'm not stressed about a deadline)

I'd still love to run it for the 4th, but I think I'm going to take my Carver out for a long weekend instead.

Tearing down the motor is just good insurance. The costs won't be bad if I stay near stock, and really I've got enough power to keep me happy for a while. So no stroker cranks or long rods this time around (unless somebody's got something laying around they need to sell cheap?:lookaroun:) When I get a good look at the bores I'll decide if I want to punch it oversize, and if I do I can consider dropping compression a bit. Pretty much, I'm thinking more about reliability improvements than power gains, although if there's something minor worth doing while the motor is opened up I'll certainly consider it.

So.....time to clean up the garage this morning then get set up to pull the motor. You guys might well be right that I could make it work with one of the tricks, but I'll just feel better knowing for sure.

Besides, I've never torn down a big block Chevy. Heck, I haven't built any kind of engine in 10 or 12 years, and the last engines I did were Alfa 4 and 6 cylinders. I've done a bunch of small block Fords, and one small block Chevy, but those were 15-20 years ago. So while I'd like to be out boating, I'll still get some enjoyment out of this as well. I know there will be a certain amount of swearing when something doesn't line up or I tear that one gasket or whatever, but I'll live with it.

To the garage!

[blackhawk]

Zelatore, that milkshake in your valve covers can plug up the cover vents/breathers and push the dipstick out and even oil out the dispstick tube.

Engine problems are rarely simple/cheap but I hate to see someone pull their and tear it apart when a thermostat or restrictor plate could fix it!

I agree with Phil(MOP) you should soak the low cylinders overnight then do a leakdown. That will tell you if your engine is healthy. If not pull it. If so then work on the temp/condensation problem. Leakdown is the only real way to test the health of an engine IMO.

[MOP]

The milk shake is SOP for cold running engines, I would love to see how all the previous testing would come out repeated after a couple of hours running at 160 or better. What you see is what you will always see when you run such low temps. Like I said before you can not cook of the moisture at such low temps!

[zelatore]

Too late now....engine is out. :shades:

Like I said before, even if it turns out I could have gotten away with some of the trick fixes, I'll feel better knowing exactly what's going on. Better safe than sorry.

Plus this will give me a chance to learn a thing or two about big block Chevys, and I can make some improvements to it for reliability. Heck, maybe then I'll even up the boost a little.

[zelatore]

Oh, and I think some sort of thermostat will be going back in it.

It will be a while before I tear the motor down. Next weekend I need to show the Carver some love, so I don't know if I'll get anything done on the Donzi.

[Carl C]

Don, I think you are doing the right thing. admittedly most of my experience has been with automotive engines but I've never been a fan of miracle cures either. That's an old school engine. You can have the pistons/rods out in no time. Then you'll know what you have. Good luck with it. Do it right; Drop the compression, up the boost.

[MOP]

With 160 thermostat and a few hour running, you may be very surprised. A little over two weeks until the 4th, fair chance you can make it. There may be some validity to bad head gaskets but I doubt it, no change in oil levels kind says that speculation is wrong. An ideal setup for you blower guys would be a switchable water circuit, at low boost the water would be temp controlled but hammer down it would free flow. But I still go back to Randy having closed cooling and from what I hear very good performance and great engine life. Another thought with boost which raises combustion chamber pressure quite high would you not force air into the cooling tract? If so why did you not have high temperature?

[SilverBack]

I don't think that closed cooling would really hurt. I think that Procharger says to remove your thermostat for "insurance" since their FMU just gets things close on your AFR. I know that a lot of people have problems with black transom with the FMU. Since Mark Boos did my engine it stays clean back there. I have thought about closed cooling mine. (for salt water reasons) I am going to look into it this fall. I have high water temps and the main thing that engine builders say that is important is having higher oil temps and a lot of people run a thermostat on their oil cooler. If the oil temps get up it solves the problem. The water around here is usually above 80 degrees.

[The Hedgehog]

You can run a thermostat. You will need to drill a few holes in it to get the flow up a little.

I would also consider a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. That was the source of most of my milkshake.

My new engine runs cold. But it built to run cold.

[zelatore]

Thermostat in the oil cooler isn't a bad idea. Nor is an oil temp gauge. Of course I just made a spiffy new dash and didn't include a spot for that gauge...:bonk:

Not sure how I'd go about running a thermostat in the oil cooler. It's a combo oil/PS cooler George C. had seen from a place around Chicago. Significatntly larger than stock.

One thing I did notice last night - I had milkshake in the oil filter. I didn't really expect that.

BTW, I brought my trusty Summit catalog to work this week for some recreational reading. :wink:

[SilverBack]

One of the best engine tuners in the country said to either run the stock cooler or run a thermostat with our setup. The oil needs to get warmer to keep this from happening. You will need to fix this problem or it will do no good to do the engine work. You will be right back where you started!!

[The Hedgehog]

I think that Eikert makes a good thermostatically controlled oil cooler. Yes, do the oil temp gauge and DO NOT get on it until you get 160 degrees of oil temp. You might be amazed how long that takes.

[blackhawk]

I agree on doing things right and motor problems are rarely simple, but tearing a motor down without doing a leakdown test is kind of crazy IMO!

But, at least you have another boat to enjoy! :D

[SilverBack]

http://www.keitheickert.com/SearchResult.aspx






Hardin Marine Oil Cooler Part#: 620-725 Category: Engine Oil Systems Brand Name: Hardin Marine Description: Hi-Performance Thermostatically Controlled Oil Cooler, 3" Diameter, 25" Length, 1" NPT Water Connections, 3/4" NPT Oil Connections - For engines up to 1,000 HP, engine oil only
Quite simply, the ultimate cooler on the market toady! It maintains an even, constant oil temperature thermostatically in one great unit. If you suffer from either high oil temperature or even moisture or condensation in your engine oil this the answer. The thermostat is designed to maintain an oil operating temperature between 190 degrees and 215 degrees. The thermostat causes the oil to bypass the cooler until operating temperature has been reached and then balances oil flow to maintain optimum oil temperature. This alone can save you from years of damage caused by operating your boat with too cold of an oil temperature.

[The Hedgehog]

http://www.keitheickert.com/SearchResult.aspx






Hardin Marine Oil Cooler Part#: 620-725 Category: Engine Oil Systems Brand Name: Hardin Marine Description: Hi-Performance Thermostatically Controlled Oil Cooler, 3" Diameter, 25" Length, 1" NPT Water Connections, 3/4" NPT Oil Connections - For engines up to 1,000 HP, engine oil only
Quite simply, the ultimate cooler on the market toady! It maintains an even, constant oil temperature thermostatically in one great unit. If you suffer from either high oil temperature or even moisture or condensation in your engine oil this the answer. The thermostat is designed to maintain an oil operating temperature between 190 degrees and 215 degrees. The thermostat causes the oil to bypass the cooler until operating temperature has been reached and then balances oil flow to maintain optimum oil temperature. This alone can save you from years of damage caused by operating your boat with too cold of an oil temperature.


Yes sir, worth it!

[zelatore]

Or possibly I could go with:

Hardin Marine Oil Thermostat
Part#: 625-7202

Category: Engine Oil Systems

Brand Name: Hardin Marine

Description:
Xtreme Remote Engine & Transmission Oil Thermostat 180 Degree

Traditionally engine or transmission oil is continuously run through a cooler or heat exchanger to prevent the engine or transmission oil from overheating Obviously this system works well but it does not compensate for the variables involved such as the water temperature your boating in, the size and efficiency of your coolers or how long it takes you to warm up your engine to bring it to proper operating temperature.

By installing a remote oil thermostat the oil will bypass the cooler until it reaches a pre-determined temperature at which point it will internally open and begin flowing the oil thru the cooler to maintain a constant oil operating temperature The Hardin Marine Xtreme oil thermostat can either be remotely mounted with 2 stand-off bushings or it can be connected directly to the oil cooler or remote filter head with a custom Hardin Marine coupler fitting.


The cooler/thermostat combo is $600; this would work with my current cooler and is $227. That's $373 that could go to dyno time....assuming I find somebody local who's got a dyno and knows how to tune MEFI3.

[SilverBack]

Or possibly I could go with:

Hardin Marine Oil Thermostat
Part#: 625-7202

Category: Engine Oil Systems

Brand Name: Hardin Marine

Description:
Xtreme Remote Engine & Transmission Oil Thermostat 180 Degree

Traditionally engine or transmission oil is continuously run through a cooler or heat exchanger to prevent the engine or transmission oil from overheating Obviously this system works well but it does not compensate for the variables involved such as the water temperature your boating in, the size and efficiency of your coolers or how long it takes you to warm up your engine to bring it to proper operating temperature.

By installing a remote oil thermostat the oil will bypass the cooler until it reaches a pre-determined temperature at which point it will internally open and begin flowing the oil thru the cooler to maintain a constant oil operating temperature The Hardin Marine Xtreme oil thermostat can either be remotely mounted with 2 stand-off bushings or it can be connected directly to the oil cooler or remote filter head with a custom Hardin Marine coupler fitting.


The cooler/thermostat combo is $600; this would work with my current cooler and is $227. That's $373 that could go to dyno time....assuming I find somebody local who's got a dyno and knows how to tune MEFI3.


Paul Pfaff is in Cali but he might cost a little more then that!!:wink:

[The Hedgehog]

Or possibly I could go with:
Hardin Marine Oil Thermostat
Part#: 625-7202
Category: Engine Oil Systems
Brand Name: Hardin Marine
Description:
Xtreme Remote Engine & Transmission Oil Thermostat 180 Degree
Traditionally engine or transmission oil is continuously run through a cooler or heat exchanger to prevent the engine or transmission oil from overheating Obviously this system works well but it does not compensate for the variables involved such as the water temperature your boating in, the size and efficiency of your coolers or how long it takes you to warm up your engine to bring it to proper operating temperature.
By installing a remote oil thermostat the oil will bypass the cooler until it reaches a pre-determined temperature at which point it will internally open and begin flowing the oil thru the cooler to maintain a constant oil operating temperature The Hardin Marine Xtreme oil thermostat can either be remotely mounted with 2 stand-off bushings or it can be connected directly to the oil cooler or remote filter head with a custom Hardin Marine coupler fitting.
The cooler/thermostat combo is $600; this would work with my current cooler and is $227. That's $373 that could go to dyno time....assuming I find somebody local who's got a dyno and knows how to tune MEFI3.

It all depends on how much hp you want.

One of my suggested recipes has been done many times and a base calibration is already avail. That will knock out a BUNCH of the tuning headaches. You could avoid the whole dyno scene all together.

[SilverBack]

This one is even cheaper!!

Oil Thermostat Part#: BC625-7202 Category: Bargain Cove - Huge Savings, Great Deals Brand Name: Keith Eickert Performance Products Description: 180 Degree Remote Oil Thermostat Kit Sale Price $262.95 $150.00 (Savings: $112.95)

[SilverBack]

Call Precision Marine and talk to Mark Boos....He very well could have a program that would work the without getting on the dyno for your application. (504) 469-7463

I would give him to until Monday...He is swamped putting on the Royal Purple poker run this weekend.

[The Hedgehog]

Call Precision Marine and talk to Mark Boos....He very well could have a program that would work the without getting on the dyno for your application. (504) 469-7463

I would give him to until Monday...He is swamped putting on the Royal Purple poker run this weekend.

He may very well. He did before he had a hard drive crash. He is the CAL MAN. Great tuner

[BigGrizzly]

Let me start with after tearing my engine down after 800 hours there was no sludg, milk shake or the like. I run a 9.5 compression ratio, not blower pistons but they are forged and not hypereutectic. I have a closed cooling system with a full flow heat exchanger. I have an oil T-stat that I got from racer supply for under $100. I have not installed it yet in 8 years, I warm my engine up. I have a 14 quart oil pan and run an oil cooler. With a closed system oil heats up quicker and cools down slower. With a closed system I do not need restricters in the block. Since there are a ton of motors like Zels out there with prochargers and stock pistons in them with out issues. Every body is offering the what if thing with out knowing what is happening. It is very easy to spend someone elses money. All the deals out there- You get what you pay for, if that. Here is a question. How many of you have run a 22 classic in the mid 80's? I can count them on one hand. How many have actually built them and not paid to have them built? My guess is the same amount.
First the engine is Running TOO COLD. That in itself will cause an issue. We once ran some tests on reving cold engines cold at high rpms, causing head gaskets to blow and or seep. It is really funny that the first day out this thing has puked oil but not before. The out drive is pukeing too why? I sure would hate to re do this just to find the issues are still here. With the numbers listed it should been blowing oil and using it like Obama is spending money.

[MOP]

Hey Zel how do these numbers stack up? http://64.202.180.37/files/thermos$.pdf?Submit1=Get+Pricing

[mrfixxall]

:
Let me start with after tearing my engine down after 800 hours there was no sludg, milk shake or the like. I run a 9.5 compression ratio, not blower pistons but they are forged and not hypereutectic. I have a closed cooling system with a full flow heat exchanger. I have an oil T-stat that I got from racer supply for under $100. I have not installed it yet in 8 years, I warm my engine up. I have a 14 quart oil pan and run an oil cooler. With a closed system oil heats up quicker and cools down slower. With a closed system I do not need restricters in the block. Since there are a ton of motors like Zels out there with prochargers and stock pistons in them with out issues. Every body is offering the what if thing with out knowing what is happening. It is very easy to spend someone elses money. All the deals out there- You get what you pay for, if that. Here is a question. How many of you have run a 22 classic in the mid 80's? I can count them on one hand. How many have actually built them and not paid to have them built? My guess is the same amount.
First the engine is Running TOO COLD. That in itself will cause an issue. We once ran some tests on reving cold engines cold at high rpms, causing head gaskets to blow and or seep. It is really funny that the first day out this thing has puked oil but not before. The out drive is pukeing too why? I sure would hate to re do this just to find the issues are still here. With the numbers listed it should been blowing oil and using it like Obama is spending money.


Welcome back Griz:biggrin.:

[zelatore]

Let me start with after tearing my engine down after 800 hours there was no sludg, milk shake or the like. I run a 9.5 compression ratio, not blower pistons but they are forged and not hypereutectic. I have a closed cooling system with a full flow heat exchanger. I have an oil T-stat that I got from racer supply for under $100. I have not installed it yet in 8 years, I warm my engine up. I have a 14 quart oil pan and run an oil cooler. With a closed system oil heats up quicker and cools down slower. With a closed system I do not need restricters in the block. Since there are a ton of motors like Zels out there with prochargers and stock pistons in them with out issues. Every body is offering the what if thing with out knowing what is happening. It is very easy to spend someone elses money. All the deals out there- You get what you pay for, if that. Here is a question. How many of you have run a 22 classic in the mid 80's? I can count them on one hand. How many have actually built them and not paid to have them built? My guess is the same amount.
First the engine is Running TOO COLD. That in itself will cause an issue. We once ran some tests on reving cold engines cold at high rpms, causing head gaskets to blow and or seep. It is really funny that the first day out this thing has puked oil but not before. The out drive is pukeing too why? I sure would hate to re do this just to find the issues are still here. With the numbers listed it should been blowing oil and using it like Obama is spending money.

I was wondering when you'd come back to visit. :wink:

FWIW, it wasn't the FIRST time back out...it was the second


Hey Zel how do these numbers stack up? http://64.202.180.37/files/thermos$.pdf?Submit1=Get+Pricing

Better! :yes: I'm liking the sandwich plate version. Clean and easy plumbing.

I had change of plans today and found myself back at home instead of staying on my boat tonight. So I'm going to hit the low cylinders with a good squirt of the Merc spray, stick the plugs back in, and let it sit until I get back home Friday night. With it out of the boat it will be easy to do an honest leak-down, although I would like to fire it to get it warm first. Since that's not really an option I'll have to take the cold numbers for what I can.

On another positive note, I just learned that I have a couple bucks extra to play with. :yippie: Looks like the insurance for the big boat is going to cover the stolen dinghy after all - with only a $250 deductible. If any of you have ever priced a nice small RIB, you know those things don't come cheap!

[yeller]

On another positive note, I just learned that I have a couple bucks extra to play with. :yippie: Oh, Oh....sentences like that are usually followed a couple months later by......"I'm waaayyy over budget and still not in the water". :biggrin.:

[BigGrizzly]

Zel, Been away to Lake George, and left the puter home. What I meant was puking oil before the blower install. I keep thinking an intake leak. Your boat ran too good before. I hope I am right.

[The Hedgehog]

Oh, Oh....sentences like that are usually followed a couple months later by......"I'm waaayyy over budget and still not in the water". :biggrin.:

So true. Every time I get some sort of score on a great deal on some parts it is followed by twice as much bad news.

:nilly::nilly::nilly:

[zelatore]

Ah, well I see the mistake here and it's very simple.

You started with a budget.

Much easier to just keep throwing money at it until you're satisfied.








(that's a joke in case anybody was wondering)

[BigGrizzly]

In business it is called budgeted recourse. I make up the budget after the job is done, just kidding honey.

[MOP]

Bump!!
Will you be back in action soon? Or is silence a lead up to "Skunk Works"??

[zelatore]

Next weekend is earmarked for tear-down and inspection.

The last few weekends have been taken up with cleaning the house for a visit from my parents, entertaining them, and cleaning/sorting the Carver for a week in the delta for the 4th (I'm leaving from my office in a couple hours and won't be back until Sunday night).

I'm still considering lots of ideas. The thought process goes like this-

-I'll just keep it stock....it's fast enough in the mid-80s.
-but if I have to bore it, I might as well drop the compression
-and I should consider upgrading the valve train while I'm in there
-I wonder what the cost difference would be between overhauling the stock heads vs a set of aftermarket heads...hmmm
-roller rockers aren't too expensive
-I wonder what a full roller valvetrain would cost while I'm in there?
-Silverback's intake is pretty darn cool

Then I stop and realize I just mentally spent several thousand bucks and would need full custom ECU work to get it running and think 'is it worth the hassle? Isn't stock fast enough?' And the loop starts all over.

So I keep telling myself I can't make any decisions until I tear it down and inspect. (Even though I'm pretty sure I know what I'll find) That's the only thing keeping me sane at this point.

Don't worry, I'll report fully when I get back on the job. :yes:

[The Hedgehog]

Next weekend is earmarked for tear-down and inspection.
The last few weekends have been taken up with cleaning the house for a visit from my parents, entertaining them, and cleaning/sorting the Carver for a week in the delta for the 4th (I'm leaving from my office in a couple hours and won't be back until Sunday night).
I'm still considering lots of ideas. The thought process goes like this-
-I'll just keep it stock....it's fast enough in the mid-80s.
-but if I have to bore it, I might as well drop the compression
-and I should consider upgrading the valve train while I'm in there
-I wonder what the cost difference would be between overhauling the stock heads vs a set of aftermarket heads...hmmm
-roller rockers aren't too expensive
-I wonder what a full roller valvetrain would cost while I'm in there?
-Silverback's intake is pretty darn cool
Then I stop and realize I just mentally spent several thousand bucks and would need full custom ECU work to get it running and think 'is it worth the hassle? Isn't stock fast enough?' And the loop starts all over.
So I keep telling myself I can't make any decisions until I tear it down and inspect. (Even though I'm pretty sure I know what I'll find) That's the only thing keeping me sane at this point.
Don't worry, I'll report fully when I get back on the job. :yes:

My vote: Go enjoy the 4th! It sounds like you have a pretty dang good plan for that.:yes:

[BigGrizzly]

I am with Hedg on this one..

[zelatore]

The 4th has come and past with no casualties on the Carver, although towing the 10' RIB something like 60 miles from the bay to the delta in a stiff wind wasn't much fun. Also had a little fun when the thieving bastards that stole my last dinghy tried to come for the new one about 1 AM on the 1st (the night we left for the trip we had tied the dinghy up behind the Carver planing on a dawn departure). I awoke to the sound of somebody stepping on my boat and came flying out into the cockpit to find the guy busy untying the dink. I was completely unarmed, half naked, and I'm not a big guy....but I sure can yell and swear pretty loud! Scared him pretty good and he jumped into the skiff his buddy had waiting and took off.

But on to better things.

I stripped the engine today and got it cleaned up. Pretty sure I found my problem - take a look at these shots of the cylinders:

[zelatore]

Otherwise, things don't look too bad. Bearings show some wear, but nothing unusual:

[zelatore]

I did have a lot of sludge in the bottom of the oil pan, but no metal in it, just sludge. Again, I'm going to attribute this to cold running.

[BUIZILLA]

your gonna need to bore that block with a torque plate to put the shape back in the holes, and use a thermostat from now on... just my .03

[zelatore]

The heads looked fine; I haven't cleaned them up yet for a real inspection, so no pics yet. I haven't knocked the pistons off the rods or pulled the rings out yet either - they're soaking in the parts cleaner waiting on me to get after them with a scrubber. Probably a waste of time since it looks like I'll bore the block and won't be reusing the pistons anyway. Speaking of boring, I was always taught (growing up with small block Fords) to only bore as much as you needed to clean up the cylinders and no more to save room for future overboring. I'm sure these could be cleaned up with .010"; but it seems like everybody jumps right to .030" with these motors - any logic behind that with a 502? For that matter, how much overbore can a stock 502 block handle?

I don't have a valve spring compressor here, so I'm not going to break down the heads myself. I'm weighing the costs of having the heads gone through vs. buying a set of aftermarket aluminum heads. Keep in mind I know jack about big block chevies or blower motors in general, so I'm not sure what I'd be looking for in a head spec-wise ... any suggestions would be welcome.

Likewise, suggestions on head gaskets would be worth hearing. Stockers fine? Or look for something that would be happier with the blower? Any specifics?

Either way, I'm thinking a set of roller rockers would be a nice and resonably priced upgrade. I'm leaning toward the Comp Cams Magnums. I'm also assuming I can re-use the stock pushrods with these, and that they set to 0 lash... One + of the aftermarket heads would be larger rocker studs as opposed to the cost of buying/drilling/tapping the stockers for the larger studs. From what I hear, this is probably the weakest point of these motors, so it makes sense to put a few dollars here.

Same goes for pistons - what compression would you fine gentlemen recommend for a procharger application? Right now I'm set up for 5 lbs boost, but I could lower compression and up the boost to 7 lbs pretty easily while I'm in here.

And of course, it wouldn't hurt to consider a new cam as long as I'm into it. The stocker looked fine, as did the lifters. I wouldn't mind spending a few bucks on a new cam that would optimize the blower, but then I have to ask 'do I need to do the lifters too?' - that would add considerably to the cost of a cam upgrade.

Since the crank and rods look fine I'm probably going to leave them alone. I know the valvetrain isn't the best on these things so I'm looking at spending the money on upgrading this area (heads, rockers, cam) for reliability and performance gains.

So all you engine builders out there lay it on me - what do you think? What hard parts do you like? I'm going to try to get the block to a machine shop this week so I can get it back home and ready to start bolting stuff together next weekend.

[zelatore]

your gonna need to bore that block with a torque plate to put the shape back in the holes, and use a thermostat from now on... just my .03

Oh yeah, a 160* thermostat is going in, as is an oil thermostat.

I've never seen this sort of glazing on cylinders before, but my past work has been with automotive engines and none of them ran this cold.

[mrfixxall]

If you put a few buck in your heads they will work fine,unshroud the exhast ports and 2.25 valves would make them flo better..

as for compression i would run a flat top piston,8.5:1,if you run a recessed blower piston and it you crank up the boost your only creating more heat and everything runs hotter including the procharger..

I would also consider changing the connecting rods,the chevy dimple rod is strong but a h-beam is stronger and thats what usually the first thing that brakes..

call Bob Madara... 585-654-8583 @ can comedics about your cam:yes:
hes is the best hands down and will make you a camshaft for pennys more then your going to spend on a comp cam. just give him a call and he will blow your mind with his cam knolege.

about your block, the stock bore is 4.467,they make a 4.470 piston but i dont thik yur cylinds are going to clean up.4.500 would be the ticket which would make ita 509. you will still have .060 to play with as long as you dont scorch the block..

goodluck zel..

[SilverBack]

That all sounds great Z!! It sounds like you are on your way. "Cometic" is the way to go on the head gaskets with a blower motor. Forged pistons are the only way to go on a blower motor and I do mean forged NOT hypereutectic. If I were you I would go with an inverted dome or dish piston and lower my compression ratio and raise the boost. You can call Cam Motion in Baton Rouge, and tell them that you want the 500 EFI cam. It is the one that I settled on in the end and they will only charge you 1/3 of what Mercury gets for theirs. They can supply this cam to work with your stock lifters. I don't think there is an issue with these lifters. That will leave you needing push rods, rockers and springs..plus fasteners and all the other little things that go with that job. If you go down the road of buying new heads I like AFR but that is a personal choice and I am sure that there is not much difference between brands when used with the M-3 blower and 5 - 7 psi of boost. If you end up going that way I would buy sever duty intake valves and "Iconel" Exhaust valves. These are the only way to go on blower motor valves. I have done a good bit of looking into the thermostat thing and it looks and sounds like the engine builders that I talked to think that the oil cooler thermostat is all that you really need. If you do any of these things you are going to have to look at the computer. You have already changed the exhaust and now you are going to be changing several other parameters so you are going to be looking at getting a calibration done to your computer.

You need to let me know what you want to do on my intake. It is yours if you want it. You need to keep in mind that the 502 mag/EFI has I think 42 #/HR injectors and they are different than an 500 EFI or the Gorilla injectors. The 500 EFI and the Gorilla take the same injectors.


If I were you I think that I would put it back together stock and just bore the cylinder and use everything else stock and keep the same compression ratio or do what you are talking about here. I would say that you are looking at around 600 HP one way and 730-750 the other with an option of turning up the boost and getting really close to 800 HP.

If you do the upgrade route you are going to have to go to a bigger fuel pump and a 1/2 inch fuel line with a return and a bigger pick up in the fuel tank.

If you lower the compression and go with about 8 psi of boost I would think that you would be in the 90 to 100 MPH range with your 22.

Oh yes one more thing...your crank and rods are forged and I think that they will be fine but your new aftermarket forged pistons are going to be lighter and I would get the rotating assy balanced and lichted up a little.

Good luck!!! Let me know if I can help with anything!!
(http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FHypereu tectic_piston&ei=JHNaSoTRF4PesgPk28GCCw&usg=AFQjCNGv58KJw7yVcMNMiXSqMPkIRsafaw)

[SilverBack]

What kind of drive do you have again??? Have you been following Carl's drive blow up thread??:angel:

[zelatore]

What kind of drive do you have again??? Have you been following Carl's drive blow up thread??:angel:

Stock Bravo 1 drive. :shocking:

The original plan to just go with a 5 lb procharger also had me leaving the drive stock for a couple years or until it died. I don't usually fly the boat that much, and I know better than to go for hole shots, so I figured it should hold up for a year or two at least.

If I turn the wick up, I run into a bunch of possible problems. Drive upgrade to XR spec (I had planned to do a shorty lower in the future anyway, but the upper would still be at risk). The transom is stock, but the stringers have been strengthened and I have an off-shore type solid mount. Again, I expected this to be up to the original plan, but if I turn it up I'll have to consider these things again.

As for the heads, I figure I could send them to the machine shop to be built, but I can't help but think why spend $500-$1000 (I'm guessing here) on upgrading valves, studs, guides, seals, and some minor port work if I can buy a set of assembled aftermarket heads for $1500-$2000, get all that plus lighter weight and better thermal dynamics (if I remember correctly, aluminum dissipates heat faster than cast iron?) and probably better flow in the bargain, then sell the stockers for a few bucks back?

About the intake, I'm interested but I have to admit it's mostly for the bling factor. I'm afraid it might be more work than it's worth.

[The Hedgehog]

Talk to someone that tune's this type of stuff and get them to spec out a package. You get into a bunch of variables quick. Drop the CR and give more cam and you will drop the boost. Want to bring it back up and it will take you four pulleys to figure it out. 1/8" makes a HUGE difference. Then you get into injector flow rates vs the pulse width. You need someone to give you a combo. Plus you will need a base cal to match. You don't need to spent a bunch of bucks but you will if you try to reinvent the wheel. Get a cam from one place, heads from another, injectors from another, pistons that don't go with it, etc and it will cost a fortune to tune it. Get ONE tuner to spec it all out and you will be set.

[BUIZILLA]

Drop the CR and give more cam and you will drop the boost. took the words right out of my mouth....

[The Hedgehog]

What I said goes for thermostats, clearances ets. Listen to the TUNER.

When fooling with MEFI combos there are only two guys I know that I would trust. When fooling with the combo of MEFI and block building.....well I can tell you I have seen what Eddie's stuff does. My 850 starts and runs like my merc 383 mag. I have spent days riding in Brian's 800 that was set up my Marc Boos. It is bad ass too.

Go carb and the list grows but not too many can spec out a good MEFI procharger combo.

[zelatore]

Get ONE tuner to spec it all out and you will be set.

Me thinks the man speaks truth.

Got a number for either Mark or Eddie? For that matter, where are either of them located? I'm guessing gulf/east coast?

Dropped the block off at the machine shop this afternoon. They'll do a preliminary bore and let me know the numbers so I can spec pistons. Then I'll get them ordered and I'll bring them my whole rotating assembly for balancing.

So....about those phone numbers....??

[BigGrizzly]

Here is my take o n this. I have the chevy aluminum heads- work well but all head and I mean all heads need work including Brodies. Not I would NOT use the comedic head gaskets,been there, use the Felpro and re torque them after run in. Next what caused is is the the sitting at long periods- Fog if sitting for more then one week, My engine had some ring marks from this, about 1000 or more. I run a closed 1/2 system with 160 T-stat. I NEVER run cold. all my boats have T-stats. I have a 14QT oil pan and have a thermostat, but I haven't had the need because my engine heats up fast do to the closed cooling, and more even too- no restrictors. As for compression, Mid to high 8s if your good. As for boost 10 years ago we had an issue with procharger and their numbers and pulleys. A month ago nothing has changed. We got fed up and Garry got out the calculator and found some numbers and ordered 3 pulleys. The numbers fell into the perfect state. I run 5psi have a carb in a box and have 700 HP. Can I get more with set up yes, will I not likely. Cams I have a special cam that is not listed because we built this for a single application ME. I am not going to point you at a cam but the stock one will work. I always go with roller rockers for decreased valve train stress ie bad guides. Every tech/ builder has His or Her preferences. The key is the combination. As for the ECU/ECM I would stay away from AZ marine on this one. Now for my opinion, Every body is spending your money, but no one doing it has a blown classic. There is a big difference between a ZX and a classic. Trust me on this I have had one for 9 years, mid 80s take a lot of concentration. I would keep the boost at 5psi, you can go up later and cheaply after you have experienced and learned to drive it. Catch22 kept 5psi for several years with a shorty and 7.4 and attained over 90. True his is ALL combination related, he just went to 7 psi gained a couple but lost a drive. This year is refresh year for him too. BTW he used a stock Older ECU. Let hin get involved, he was careful in his choosing what to do. That being said on to valves if getting mew one and I would I would go with inconell exhaust and extreme SS intakes. Now for size, With a blower and 7 or less boost it doesn't matter for THIS application and use. If you goal is a hundred mph get ANOTHER boat. I have said I go 86. As many times as I have said this, only a few people have caught on, but that is not what the boat can do. Do what YOU feel comfortable with and throw the rest out. Remember your goal-don't change in mod stream, iit cost money and time with the results not being what they are cracked up to be. Time is not on your side, neither is $$$$."There is nothing to it but to do it". Lastly more HP shorter life. If you want to play the role you have to pay the toll:yes::yes::yes:

[SilverBack]

Z..Mark Boos phone number at the shop is - (504) 469-7463.

I think that if it were me I would just get the pistons and put it back just like it was and not change anything. Just bearings and pistons and rings. It is up to you. It is a long and expensive road when you start to change stuff. Just be prepared to go all the way and to ask yourself if it was really worth it along the way. You could be back up and running in no time if you don't change a bunch of stuff.

Good Luck.

[BUIZILLA]

don't hone the block without the pistons in the machinists hands... +.020 or .030 will work... watch your ring end gaps... HP 500 cam... roller rockers... get GOOD bearings... Fel Pro's all the way.. watch crank thrust clearance.. balance it..

[zelatore]

SB - you're probably right. I know I SHOULD just put it back together stock. After all, I was already looking at 82+ with it under-propped; maybe 85 once it was sorted and with some more seat time. Change to a shorty later and a maximum-effort prop and I could likely see 90. That's a pretty big number for a 22.

So here's what I'm thinking ... at least tonight:

Stock block/crank/rods. I'll see what the shop says, but I'll stay less than .030 over.

Forged pistons w/good rings. Flat tops; keep the compression near stock. I'll have to check the books when I get back home, but that should be around 8.5:1 I think.

Cam wise I could put the original back in it or go with a 500 efi grind. Not sure on the benefit of the 500 cam with the procharger; might not be worth it, but it would be inexpensive and easy to do now. Stay with the original lifters. This would possibly mean new springs to match.

I do think I'll drop in a set of roller rockers. Not too much money, and it's and easy addition that works well with any setup I might end up with down the road.

For the heads, I'm still leaning toward going aftermarket. I'll give Mark or Eddie a call to discuss cam/head options, but the cost difference between building the stockers vs a set of aluminum heads isn't huge, so it seems like a reasonable thought.

Head gaskets, I've heard lots of people talking Cometic. I've always used fell-pro in the past but I've never built a blower motor. Again, I think I'll defer to the recomendation of the tuner I go with.

I'm sure I'm going to run a thermostat and/or oil thermostat of some kind. The engine just doesn't get warm enough without one, plus I've got a larger than stock oil cooler now. I'll listen to the tuner's recomendation.

As for intake, I think I'll end up sticking with the stocker. The big gorilla intake looks really cool, but it just opens up a whole new set of variables to deal with. Heck, I don't even know if it will fit under the hatch.

I'll send the ECU to Eddie or Mark for a tune based on their recomendations, and I'll find a local dyno shop to run it in for me. If needed, I can then send the tuner the dyno info and have them tweek the ECU tune accordingly

This should yield a pretty strong and reliable motor with enough headroom to up the boost down the road should I feel the need to break into the 90s.

Now on to more important things ... the electro-san (waste treatment system) on the Carver started giving an error today. Better find out what that's about before the better half get's down to the boat tomorrow. I don't think she'll be too happy hoofing it up to the shore-side head in the middle of the night.

I'm also dropping one of the Triumphs off at a dyno shop tomorrow morning for a little tuning. Then I'll decide if I'm going to keep it or try to sell it or try to trade it for a little Whaler. :boat:

[zelatore]

don't hone the block without the pistons in the machinists hands... +.020 or .030 will work... watch your ring end gaps... HP 500 cam... roller rockers... get GOOD bearings... Fel Pro's all the way.. watch crank thrust clearance.. balance it..

Don't worry Buiz - first thing the machinist said when I dropped the block off was 'do you have the pistons yet?' The guys comes highly recommended and does a lot of marine and race stuff here in NorCal. He's going to stick it on the machine and give it a rough bore to get me the numbers (I told him I wanted to keep it under .030 - shouldn't be a problem), then I'll order the pistons and bring them to him along with the rest of the rotating assembly for final honing and balancing.

[mrfixxall]

Ok if you not going to at leaste give bob mandara a call on the cam then at leaste take my advise here,invest i a good set of arp head studs..hell what do i know anyways the cars i work on run in th 6's an 7's :)

[The Hedgehog]

All of these guys are right to their own degree. I ran Brodix BB2X heads and they needed work. The temp thing. I won't go there. Grizz seems to have something good worked out there with the temp but I will put it back to the tuner. I like his ideas though.

I will pm Eddie's number. It is all over OSO and boatfreaks.

Buiz's idea with the cam and heads is a proven combo and a cal is done for that. I like that idea for heads and execution.

[mrfixxall]

You cant reuse your lifters with the 500efi cam,,o theirs goes another grand:)

[zelatore]

Ok if you not going to at leaste give bob mandara a call on the cam then at leaste take my advise here,invest i a good set of arp head studs..hell what do i know anyways the cars i work on run in th 6's an 7's :)

Hey, I've built drag engines too! My old Maverick ran...uh....12's

But, uh....I was just a kid, and that was a long time ago, and I didn't have any money, and it was on street tires, and I had to drive it to the track, and, and, and....:wink:

[zelatore]

Things are moving along....talked with Mark today as well as my machinist....Should have a plan sorted by tomorrow....

I'd probably get it sorted out today, but this pesky 'work' thing keeps interfering with my boat time. At least the 'work' involves driving some boats today:yes::boat: