hybrid vehicles

[BUIZILLA]

as the transportation industry tries to re-identify itself, and it's customer's SUPPOSED wants of HYBRID vehicles, I am curious as to what this board would do...

today's HYBRID is mainstream electric/battery

I really think the car companies are pandering to the Govt that we WANT hybrid vehicles, when in fact, the opposite is the case

nonetheless, tell me what you think

[zelatore]

This board is hardly the 'mainstream' of America. We're all a bunch of gearheads or we wouldn't be here.

I see TONS of hybrids on the road - mostly that icon of the green-wannabes, the Prius. I've passed as many as 75 on the road during my commute to work. That's just one-way.

But then again, I live and work in the Bay area - so that's not exactly 'mainstream' America either.

Out here, owning a Prius is more of a status symbol (at least in some circles) than a Ferrari or other exotic. Of course, that status has probably sold more of them than economy every will.

Would I buy a hybrid? The only one that remotely appeals to me is the soon to be released Tesla Model S. Actually, that's not a hybrid but a full electric.
http://www.teslamotors.com/

It offers good looks and decent performance. I value those things far over economy.

I suspect hybrids will continue to evolve away from the Prius hair-shirt/anti-car and into more regular cars. Witness the just released Mercedes S-class hybrid. As this happens, and the technology becomes less intrusive (read heavy) and expensive, and actually starts to justify itself on it's own merits, then I would consider it. But when it costs me more to do less, as it does now, then I've no interest.

Who on this board wouldn't be interested in some sort of hybrid truck? Say for an additional $1500 over the standard price you could still have your normal towing, payload, and acceleration, but could now get an extra 3 mpg when empty? That would make sense, and the added weight of the technology wouldn't be such a hamper as it is in a car.

Or what about Ford's hydraulic hybrid technology? It's not refined enough for personal use, but it's apparently doing wonders in the UPS fleet. Basically it stores braking energy as hydraulic pressure that is then used to assist acceleration. In a delivery vehicle, that's a great idea. If it could be refined, it would be a good technology for any urban stop-and-go driving.

But there is one simple way to ensure the mainstream American develops an interest in hybrids. Jack up fuel prices to last year's levels. When gas is $4-$5/gallon, as it was just 12 months ago, people suddenly can't get enough of economizers.

[BUIZILLA]

Who on this board wouldn't be interested in some sort of hybrid truck? Say for an additional $1500 over the standard price you could still have your normal towing, payload, and acceleration, but could now get an extra 3 mpg when empty? That would make sense, and the added weight of the technology wouldn't be such a hamper as it is in a car. that's the logic I will differ with..

a. extra weight lowers the overall payload rating
b. extra weight slows acceleration
c. extra weight lowers the towing capacity

so your paying MORE for something that does everything you NEED it to, in a lesser fashion

your words > But when it costs me more to do less, as it does now, then I've no interest.

my point is, i've yet to see ANY hybrid of any sort, nature, or configuration, at the very least equal it's identical counterpart

and, as much as I am on the road, i've yet to see a hybrid anything towing a boat, camper, RV..... nada, not one

never seen as much as a commercial or advertising ad in that regard, or supporting manufacturer literature

[Ghost]

I think most people don't care, in the same way that they don't care about whether they have a carb or fuel injectors. They just care what it costs to buy, maintain, fuel. and how it performs, etc. It's all about the overall characteristics.

That said, I would certainly be willing IF something won the overall assessment as above. But nothing does, for my criteria.

So, it's a no for now.

[ajochum]

Guess I'm in the minority on this, but I sure see no reason to ignore a car that will potentially give me 50 mpg and save me $$$. Let's be realistic - changes in automobiles since the 60s have produced better mileage, more reliability, comforts, etc. If you had the choice of buying a 68 Ford with a 390 in it that got 10 miles per gallon vs. a 2009 Chevy Malibu that gets 27 miles per gallon for everyday over the road driving - which would you buy? The hybrids will be the next step and Toyota has proven it. They will get better and better, more reliable and save the consumers bucks, as well as reduce our dependency on oil. Point is that GM and Chrysler executives made fun of the Prius and Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank.

That doesn't mean I don't like my "fun cars" - my '54 Ford, Datsun 280ZX, etc.

I can't wait to see what will be out there in 25 years.

[BUIZILLA]

Guess I'm in the minority on this, but I sure see no reason to ignore a car that will potentially give me 50 mpg and save me $$$. Let's be realistic - changes in automobiles since the 60s have produced better mileage, more reliability, comforts, etc. If you had the choice of buying a 68 Ford with a 390 in it that got 10 miles per gallon vs. a 2009 Chevy Malibu that gets 27 miles per gallon for everyday over the road driving - which would you buy? The hybrids will be the next step and Toyota has proven it. They will get better and better, more reliable and save the consumers bucks, as well as reduce our dependency on oil. Point is that GM and Chrysler executives made fun of the Prius and Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank. what boat do you presently tow?

[SilverBack]

I tow a 25' ZX and a horse trailer and a flatbed and I have a Cummins diesel and it does just fine! My wife has a Nissan Armada and I can tow my boat in a pinch and when our daughters have friends with us we can take 8 people with no problem. My sister in law could not wait to get one of those Tahoe hybrids and it has been nothing but trouble. If it is not broke...don't fix it. I think that if they had some kind of diesel/electric that I may look at it but like you said Buiz...it would probably weigh way too much to be worth it. If the Gov wanted to raise fuel (MPG) standards they could just get off of the crazy emission standards. Carbon foot prints and Global Warming and Climate Change.

[Air 22]

Not the same as our 2008 Escalasde ESV but its not too bad for a Full size SUV..:cool:

http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/landing.jsp?model=hybrid&year=2009&cmp=HybridRedirect

[SilverBack]

Another thing that my sister in law is sweating out now is the fact that GM is closing the local dealership so she will have to go over 50 miles to get that thing to a dealership. I know that has nothing to do with talk about hybrids but if the thing is going to tear up all the time it sure is a pain.

[zelatore]

that's the logic I will differ with..

a. extra weight lowers the overall payload rating
b. extra weight slows acceleration
c. extra weight lowers the towing capacity

so your paying MORE for something that does everything you NEED it to, in a lesser fashion

your words > But when it costs me more to do less, as it does now, then I've no interest.

my point is, i've yet to see ANY hybrid of any sort, nature, or configuration, at the very least equal it's identical counterpart

and, as much as I am on the road, i've yet to see a hybrid anything towing a boat, camper, RV..... nada, not one

never seen as much as a commercial or advertising ad in that regard, or supporting manufacturer literature


Buiz, I wasn't suggesting that such a vehicle exists, only that the technology is developing and could eventually reach that point at which time John Q. Public would have much more interest.

At the moment, it's simply too heavy and too expensive for the return it gives. No hybrid currently on the market will actually pay for the added cost of the technology over the term of the average 5 year car loan - unless gas prices shoot up again. Basic math will tell you that. But they are getting closer.

There's also not much argument for 'saving the planet', as the total cradle to grave environmental impact is worse than simply buying a small econobox. Batteries are very bad things to make and dispose of.

The basic idea of regenerative braking - of taking what was purely a loss and recapturing part or all of it - is hugely appealing. It's hard not to want to make use of that 'free' energy. Now doing it in such a way that you don't add huge expense, huge mass, terrible brake feel, etc - that's the trick.

So I checked 'maybe' on the survey. Right now, no. But in 5 years time if the technology continues to develop then maybe.

So in this regard I should be supporting all those who are early adoptors since they are driving the technology forward. But all the same, every time I see some Prius driver on the road I feel a certain level of anger. (despite the logic that says I shouldn't) And I make a point of passing them. Usually I do this on my bike - and wish I had a sign I could hold up saying 'I average 80 mph, actually enjoy my trip, and STILL get better mileage than you!'

[Cuda]

Guess I'm in the minority on this, but I sure see no reason to ignore a car that will potentially give me 50 mpg and save me $$$. Let's be realistic - changes in automobiles since the 60s have produced better mileage, more reliability, comforts, etc. If you had the choice of buying a 68 Ford with a 390 in it that got 10 miles per gallon vs. a 2009 Chevy Malibu that gets 27 miles per gallon for everyday over the road driving - which would you buy? The hybrids will be the next step and Toyota has proven it. They will get better and better, more reliable and save the consumers bucks, as well as reduce our dependency on oil. Point is that GM and Chrysler executives made fun of the Prius and Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank.

That doesn't mean I don't like my "fun cars" - my '54 Ford, Datsun 280ZX, etc.

I can't wait to see what will be out there in 25 years.
A 50 mpg car has been out for quite a while. They call it a Volkswagon Diesel Jetta.

[Air 22]

Passing Prius's while towing our 22C is rather fun...:kingme:

[BUIZILLA]

A 50 mpg car has been out for quite a while. They call it a Volkswagon Diesel Jetta. excellent point... why would anyone buy an electric Prius then? why doesn't Toyo come out with a common rail diesel Camry or Corolla? a diesel Ford Fusion? and, why is America infatuated with battery cars, and not already available clean diesel technology? why don't we have a Powerstroke diesel V6 Expedition or F150? V6 CRD Benz engine in a Durango or 1500 Ram?

what is America's family phobia with diesel? western Europe envelopes this technology at a 55% + purchase margin, and we are either ignorant or selfish of it's acceptance.... I just don't get it...

[Air 22]

excellent point... why would anyone buy an electric Prius then? why doesn't Toyo come out with a common rail diesel Camry or Corolla? a diesel Ford Fusion? and, why is America infatuated with battery cars, and not already available clean diesel technology? why don't we have a Powerstroke diesel V6 Expedition or F150? V6 CRD Benz engine in a Durango or 1500 Ram?

what is America's family phobia with diesel? western Europe envelopes this technology at a 55% + purchase margin, and we are either ignorant or selfish of it's acceptance.... I just don't get it...


Dunno:confused:..could it be b/c battery tecnology is faster to market and engineer than the diesel cars :convertib:u mention...ie its just a quick fix til something better comes along? I hear those hybrid batteries are bad news for the enviroment..??wtf?....

[MOP]

Did anyone else catch the special on the carbon trail the hybrids cause, I was surprised.

[gcarter]

One of the biggest problems of lithium battery technology is purity. I understand there are You Tube vidios showing someone hitting camcorder batteries with a hammer and them breaking out in flame.
That's fine w/disposable doo dads like camcorders, or my BIL's model RC airplanes.
But when you put 7,000 of those suckers into a car like the Tesla, there's a potential big time problem.
I mean huge! :shocking:
I saw an ad and a corresponding article about a Mfgr of lithium batteries that makes "safe" lithium batteries in a recent issue of Professional Boat Builder. And they even come in a form the marine industry can use, like a group 8 size.
Anyway, you can shoot bullets through these things and nothing happens.
So, the really big problem w/lithium battery production is purity of components, and cleanliness of assembly.
But that all comes with a price, like for this previously mentioned Group 8 is $5,500.00.

[gcarter]

Oh yeah, I voted NO.
But i'd sure be interested in a turbo Diesel powered anything, trucks, cars, or whatever.

[Cuda]

I don't know how pure the lithium batteries are that they make crank out of, but I knew a guy who used to make it and he had these big goiters growing out the side of his neck and legs. I have no doubt it was a gathering of the heavy metals used to make lithium batteries. I haven't seen him in about ten years. There is no doubt in my mind he is dead by now. I wonder if his lifespan was equal to the lifespan of a lithium battery used to power a Prius, or if it even matters if the govt wants you to use lithium batteries, they have ways to force it down your throat "for your own good".

[SilverBack]

Oh yeah, I voted NO.
But i'd sure be interested in a turbo Diesel powered anything, trucks, cars, or whatever.

I voted no also. It is like I said earlier ... Turbo Diesel is the thing that I would be interested in. There have been diesel/electric trains and drilling rigs for years. It seems like that technology would be far ahead of some of the things they are trying to push. I think the Gov. is pushing things in the direction that they want them to go.

[ajochum]

Ford's got the diesel running in Europe I believe but I read somewhere that they are afraid the market won't support it in the US and they'll lose their ass. Maybe the memories of the Oldsmobile '80s diesel still linger in some minds.

[SilverBack]

That diesel was not a REAL diesel....Those engine sucked really bad! Hybrid or not ...I think people still want stuff that works and is reliable.

[Cuda]

Ford's got the diesel running in Europe I believe but I read somewhere that they are afraid the market won't support it in the US and they'll lose their ass. Maybe the memories of the Oldsmobile '80s diesel still linger in some minds.
It was basically a gas engine converted to run on diesel.

[BUIZILLA]

the Govt went to an awful lot of trouble to design CLEAN diesel emissions for 2007-2010.. up to and including Tier 3 and Tier 4 offroad reg's... and now they want electric cars and windmill's... ala the Jetson's... :nilly:

[Cuda]

I figured the govt had something to do with the ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. I guess that wasn't good enough.:mad:

[Cuda]

Just a question: You two who voted yes for a hybrid, is it ok if we dump the used lithium batteries in your yard?

Just askin'.

[Cuda]

Cleaner running cars just prove the old axiom:

There's no such thing as a free meal.

[zelatore]

I too have longed for a turbo diesel in a half-ton truck. In fact, when Ford announced they were going to bring one out in the F150 for '10 I set my sights on dumping my Dodge at that time. Of course then they canceled that plan to concentrate on the 'eco-boost' motors and other things.

Although I wouldn't want a turbo diesel in most of my cars, that's because I value light weight and good handling as well as good straight line performance. Yes, I very much like torque in a street car. Over and above a high HP rating most of the time. But diesels still lack the fun-to-drive quotient a good gas motor has. Still, for a more relaxed driving experience, one that I have to admit most of the time even the most die-hard performance enthusiast would get more benefit from, the huge lazy torque of a turbo diesel would be a better choice. And for Mr. and Mrs. Average American, who have no concept of performance (witness the huge sales of things like Camrys and Tauruses) a diesel makes GREAT sense. The massive surge of torque would be ever so satisfying, while still getting better mileage than a gas counterpart.

All I can say is we have a long memory about this sort of stuff. While the enthusiasts have been embracing the European diesels (BMW 335d anybody?) and are asking for them here, and the truck guys (saw this bumper sticker yesterday: real trucks don't have sparkplugs) have been asking for diesel power in more light-duty applications, the general public still equates diesel cars with Olds 88's or diesel Rabbits. Loud, slow, smelly.

I see this sort of collective memory as the biggest hurdle to many things. For example, among the enthusiasts many people believe GM had been making huge strides in improving their quality and were able to play on level terms with the Japanese (Malibu) or Europeans (CTS-V, Corvette). But the general public still thinks of GM cars as mid-80s crap wagons. Rebuilding that image could have been done if not for the one-two punch of suddenly skyrocketing gas prices and the recession. But it would take time. You can bulid a bad rep overnight, but a good one takes years or decades. Time GM, and the whole US auto industry simply ran out of.

The same is true of Fiat coming back to the US. How many people here will even give them a chance? Very few. No sooner than you say 'Fiat' in the US than somebody busts out a tired old Fix it again Tony joke, then somebody else tells about a friend's uncle's cousin's neighbor who knew a guy who had a Fiat Spider back in the early 70's that rusted from day one. The logical conclusion to draw from that being that anything Fiat has made in the ensuing 35 years is also a rust heap.

So, at the moment I think turbo diesels are a mature technology that could be brought in NOW. Hybrids are a young technology that is coming along quickly because it has caught the public's attention as 'green' (despite whatever the true of the mater is). But I don't think we can ignore the possible gains from technologies such as regenerative braking. That's just too big a carrot to pass up.

Lastly, it has been pointed out that the European countries have embraced diesel. This is largely due to tax structure. We could do the same here, but who among us wants to legislate the market? Isn't that a bad thing?

[smokediver]

I had a class on how to do extrication on hybrids and I kinda wish they went to one standard location as to where the big gauge orange cable runs . some have it in the middle of the car but others have it going down one of the rocker panels . part of lifting a stering wheel off some one is cutting into the a pillar and then ramming a haligan down into the rocker panel to make a purchase point for a hydraulic ram . we dont run a chain through a windshield too much any more to pull a steering wheel as it is more effective to lift the whole dash .. anyway , talking to the honda tech , he said that by the time it paid for itself , the batt. pack would need replacing at a pretty big cost. I wonder about disposing those things ?

[Ghost]

Lastly, it has been pointed out that the European countries have embraced diesel. This is largely due to tax structure. We could do the same here, but who among us wants to legislate the market? Isn't that a bad thing?

Isn't our lack of diesels due to laws where we HAVE tampered with the market, as opposed to a lack of laws like those where the Europeans have tampered with theirs? I don't know, but this is the impression I have from my reading. A great example is the VW Toureg diesel, which got scrapped here despite such huge demand that the ones they did sell here may be worth more after a few years than when they were new.

Mike

[BUIZILLA]

there is a 3 part MISPERCEPTION problem with the USA folk's and diesels..

a. the pumps usually leak and it smells
b. as soon as diesels got popular, like 1979-1980... then the fuel lord's jacked the price up
c. they are slow and noisy

I came within a whisker a month ago of buying a new black Jetta CRD stick wagon as a daily driver, until some unexpected things didn't go my way... bummer..

I am a firm believer in the future of the CRD and TDI stuff, problem now is Wash. is on a witch hunt to rid ourselves of fossil fuels... a plan that just won't work..

[Donziweasel]

I voted no also. I have never seen a hybrid that will tow horses in a foot of snow or mud........:wink:

[gcarter]

[quote=BUIZILLA;517817]there is a 3 part MISPERCEPTION problem with the USA folk's and diesels..

a. the pumps usually leak and it smells
b. as soon as diesels got popular, like 1979-1980... then the fuel lord's jacked the price up
c. they are slow and noisy

quote]

I think this is all true.
Someone in the US needs to make an intro, like Toyota and Honda w/their hybrids several years back, w/a US built Ford Flex or something similar.....good space, driveability, acceleration, low noise, and ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE ECONOMY!!!!!
It'd have to be great and bulletproof right out of the box.
I think it could change things.

[gcarter]

If it could get better mileage w/o all the electronic crap and dangerous batteries, it'd have to be a hit.

[BUIZILLA]

If it could get better mileage w/o all the electronic crap and dangerous batteries, it'd have to be a hit.



there is a 3 part MISPERCEPTION problem with the USA folk's and diesels..

a. the pumps usually leak and it smells
b. as soon as diesels got popular, like 1979-1980... then the fuel lord's jacked the price up
c. they are slow and noisy



I think this is all true.
Someone in the US needs to make an intro, like Toyota and Honda w/their hybrids several years back, w/a US built Ford Flex or something similar.....good space, driveability, acceleration, low noise, and ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE ECONOMY!!!!!
It'd have to be great and bulletproof right out of the box.
I think it could change things.
I agree 100%, and I think the Flex would be a natural start.... a panel van Flex would make a GREAT delivery vehicle for me, in fact fuzzy and I crawled all over a new Transit van recently...

[Donziweasel]

What kind? Always like to hear about commercail vehicles and what you thought of them.....

[BUIZILLA]

fuzzy should have the Transit pic's... extremely well thought out interior options.. :yes:

[handfulz28]

Why WOULDN'T anybody want a "daily driver" that saved resources?...IF it didn't cost more to buy in the first place and didn't leave a bigger hazardous footprint when it died....and looked a little better than what's offered right now.

The problem is here in North America, most of us can only deal with one vehicle and we need it to do a lot of different things. Whether it's a Prius or a Tesla, neither one is getting the boat around. Neither one is going to take mom, dad, the 2-3 kids and the dogs to Disney World. But for a lot of people that sit in bumper to bumper traffic for 30-60mins each way, every day, it should be what the "daily driver" is.

So what to do for the rest of us that have something more than just "driving to work" in our routine? The "hybrid" combustion/electric. I'm with Silverback....why isn't there more motivation for diesel/electric? I have some answers and more quesions.

Why does diesel power carry such a price premium? What's so special in the design and construction of a diesel powerplant? Or are there government fees/taxes associated with the production of diesel powerplants? Or is it just manufacturers covering their extended warranty costs?

One of the hurdles is the lingering memories of diesels past. Then there's the loud and dirty aspect...is there such thing as a "clean" diesel station? We need to make "pumping diesel" at the "gas" station a much cleaner experience. I have no idea what the "efficiency" is on hybrid combustion/electric versus straight combustion.

But probably one of the biggest unspoken hurdles is production/refining capacity. Believe it or not, there's not a lot of excess capacity to refine diesel here. The whole reason prices shot up was because of the supply interuption during conversion to the new standards. Diesel demand is pretty consistent and predictable these days. Refiners pretty much sell what they make. Who's going to make the investment up front ("Build it, and they will come")? Or does the market incur a true supply/demand price increase until production comes online?

That's probably part of the reason we leapfrog to electric/battery. Somebody out there has to be whispering in ears..."build more nuclear, it's clean"...and that means clean/cheap electric power over the long term.

I can't tell you how disappointed I am that GM never responded to my purchase offer and technology license deal to convert Hummer from the iconic resource hog to the pre-emminent "enviro-friendly" hybrid model that it could be. My grant request apparently never got to the right people in BO's administration either...I was only asking for $1Billion up front. I should've just gone to Penske with my ideas.

Why isn't the USPS the posterchild for transportation initiatives?

[BigGrizzly]

I am with poodle on this. The propaganda the Government is spouting is off the wall. they keep changing the rules then the let you buy out of emissions.

[zelatore]

Not the USPS....

....UPS :wink:

http://gas2.org/2008/10/28/ups-is-first-in-delivery-industry-to-test-hydraulic-hybrids/

Check out the claims: pays for itself in 3 years, 50% better economy, 40% lower emissions. And no radical new technology to develop like exotic batteries. Should be safer too, without the high voltage. Although a high-pressure jet of hydraulic oil could put a serious hurt on somebody at least the entire body wouldn't act like a conductor.

Even if the test fleet only hits 75% of the claims, that will be pretty impressive for 'off the shelf' technology.

[ajochum]

Just a question: You two who voted yes for a hybrid, is it ok if we dump the used lithium batteries in your yard?

Just askin'.

Sure - As long as you let me pour gasoline and diesel down your chimney!:) Ya know, you already got a battery in your car. I don't see anyone giving that up.

[gcarter]

Sure - As long as you let me pour gasoline and diesel down your chimney!:) Ya know, you already got a battery in your car. I don't see anyone giving that up.
A single 12 V lead acid battery can be completely recycled.
Remember, it's just one.....weighs about 20 lb.

Not 400 to 600 lb of lithium that can burst into flame, or worse.
As far as I know, can't be recycled.

[BUIZILLA]

A single 12 V lead acid battery can be completely recycled.
Remember, it's just one.....weighs about 20 lb.

Not 400 to 600 lb of lithium that can burst into flame, or worse.
As far as I know, can't be recycled.
which begs the question,,, if a Tahoe Hybrid, for instance, is totaled in a wreck, how is that handled at auction or disposal time and the wrecking/parts picker/recyclying yard? do we then have a recycled lithium row of parts?

[HOWARD O]

A few years ago, it seemed that the hydrogen fuel cell cars were on their way. Now you hear nothing about them anymore. Honda was even starting to market one, I think it was called "Clear" or "Clarity" or something like that.

What happened to all of that? It looked like the perfect solution to me.

Battery cars aren't for me, I can't even keep up with all the batteries for my kid's toys!

[gcarter]

A few years ago, it seemed that the hydrogen fuel cell cars were on their way. Now you hear nothing about them anymore. Honda was even starting to market one, I think it was called "Clear" or "Clarity" or something like that.

What happened to all of that? It looked like the perfect solution to me.

Battery cars aren't for me, I can't even keep up with all the batteries for my kid's toys!
The lithium battery technology breakthrough and electronic motor controls were a lot closer to something marketable than Hydrogen.
Don't dismiss Hydrogen yet, but a supply is important and so far the main problem. Also the membrane stacks aren't really being produced in any kind of production numbers yet.

[Lenny]

NOT to be political, but what I have noted is that the answers to Buizz's question all but perfectly emulate the Republican/Democrat demogrpahic of this site, and as we all know, this site does not proportionally represent the best interest of the masses of the American people. This poll looks like the run-up to the last Presidential race in the US. :yes: but in the end ... wrong...

[BUIZILLA]

NOT to be political, but what I have noted is that the answers to Buizz's question all but perfectly emulate the Republican/Democrat demogrpahic of this site, and as we all know, this site does not proportionally represent the best interest of the masses of the American people. This poll looks like the run-up to the last Presidential race in the US. :yes: but in the end ... wrong...
actually Len, I think your wrong on this one... automobiles are far too personal to be political... the car make has no clue who the nut behind the wheel is..

[SilverBack]

I guess that in the end you may both be right...I answered no but I would look at a hybrid if it was the kid of hybrid that I would be interested in. We have been talking about Diesel/Electric and I would look at a one ton diesel electric but I would not try the hybrids that they are working on now.

[RedDog]

... this site does not proportionally represent the best interest of the masses of the American people. ...

Now that is a loaded comment.

The folks you feel are looking out for the masses of the people are about to destroy all that the masses of the people love about America.

[gcarter]

I agree w/Tim.
I may be wrong, but I think hybrids will be the next '80's GM Diesel car.
There's probably not over 200,000 on the road of every kind and the long term impact and maintenance issues haven't really emerged yet.
I think in the long term, it'll be worse than Diesels for payback when there's no more subsidies, a new battery pack has to be bought and installed, and there's been a few electronic control failures. Not to mention battery fires from collisions.
The jury is still out.

[BUIZILLA]

Please, I want to leave politics out of this topic, as I strongly feel that transportation choice is personal needs driven, and not political party driven.... :convertib:

[BigGrizzly]

Honda still has the Fuel cell, but for how long I can't tell you. The Government has dropped funding for it and doesn't want to talk about it because it is not in their best interest. Now for Buiz question about recycle on crash hybrids they have tryed to adapt the normal battery recycle /disposal of the lith batteries. as for the fires the courts are getting involved on who to blame, I see another Pinto fiascoe.

[RedDog]

I voted "No"

May be the economy, but...


Toyota's Prius was the top seller in Japan, but US sales are down 45 per cent so far this year

http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2243569/sales-stall-prius-big-japan

[gcarter]

I voted "No"

May be the economy, but...



http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2243569/sales-stall-prius-big-japan

I saw that this morning too, Tim.
Maybe the pipeline is full.........

[Cuda]

NOT to be political, but what I have noted is that the answers to Buizz's question all but perfectly emulate the Republican/Democrat demogrpahic of this site, and as we all know, this site does not proportionally represent the best interest of the masses of the American people. This poll looks like the run-up to the last Presidential race in the US. :yes: but in the end ... wrong...

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.


Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.

[VetteLT193]

I voted maybe because of the dollars and sense of it.

If the numbers add up, sure. If they don't, no way. It's quite simple for me.

I did the math on the Mercury Mariner hybrid and it didn't add up compared to the standard Mariner the way I drive. If I put a ton of miles on the car the numbers might add up differently.

On top of straight numbers there are maintenance, warranty, etc. that also has to get factored in. but you can put a price tag on all of that stuff to figure a net plus or minus over a regular vehicle.

[CJmike]

We have two Prius here at work. We can sign them out to take to jobsite's. So I have driven them abit. Not bad cars but driving them takes a little getting used to. If work gave me one to drive all the time I would drive it. But I wouldn't buy one.

My personal vehicle is a one ton dually diesel Chevy. It tows everything I have parked in my yard and still gets decent mileage commuting. Personally I have driven diesel pickups since the 90's when I got my first one as a work truck. Since then I have purchased quite a few Ford 7.3 diesels. They lost me on the 6.0, and I switched to the Duramax.

My current plan is to park the Chevy after its paid for next year, and start daily driving something else. What I would really like is a diesel SUV. Currently Mercedes and Jeep offer one. Canada gets the diesel Landcruiser, I think, at least in the past they did. That would be my first choice if I could get one. But have looked at all the current diesels out there. VW has some offerings as does Mercedes. But American manufacturers offer nothing here. Although almost all have europian models they sell. I really like diesel and wish that we would get on board with it.

When diesel jumped in price they blamed it on the switch over to the new low sulpher fuel. Which I am sure is partly true. But the refiniries also found that they could sell the diesel overseas, ie China, for more profit than they could sell the low sulpher for here. So they started shipping refined diesel to China. So we were shipping raw crude here, refining it, and then shipping refined diesel out.