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Last Real Texan
06-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Anyone out there know of a good one ? it seems only Nordscog offers on that would be usable. On Blower motors intake charge temp. can be very important on long runs at boost and looking to do a little research and data logging. Any help?

Tex

The Hedgehog
06-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Ok Fixx,

Your comments on the pm were well received. Brian and I have been talking the cool air thing for a while and it is time to learn something. Lots of temp trials this summer. I am sure that some of this has been done but I think it will be a fun project. Now I am just trying to keep my engine compartment from looking like a HVAC!

MOP
06-02-2009, 10:03 PM
Even with my mouse motor I brought up air inlet temps awhile back but the post ran a muck with wisdom. I put a candy thermometer under my hatch and taped to my air breather and checked after a couple of mile run, no joke it was over 145 degrees when I first lifted the hatch. I am closed cooled with a 180 Tstat, flipped me that the ambient under the hatch was that high. I have tossed a few ideas around but have not gotten off my butt yet, note within 3-4 minutes the thermometer dropped to 90+ as the hot air escaped. Outside temp was high 70's! There is some HP lurking!

Here is a little chart that will get you thinking a little harder!
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html

VetteLT193
06-02-2009, 10:09 PM
I'd be surprised if the 500 EFI didn't already have a manifold air temp sensor that you can tap into via the factory computer.

The Hedgehog
06-02-2009, 10:22 PM
Even with my mouse motor I brought up air inlet temps awhile back but the post ran a muck with wisdom. I put a candy thermometer under my hatch and taped to my air breather and checked after a couple of mile run, no joke it was over 145 degrees when I first lifted the hatch. I am closed cooled with a 180 Tstat, flipped me that the ambient under the hatch was that high. I have tossed a few ideas around but have not gotten off my butt yet, note within 3-4 minutes the thermometer dropped to 90+ as the hot air escaped. Outside temp was high 70's! There is some HP lurking!

Here is a little chart that will get you thinking a little harder!
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html

That is great info Phil.

The Hedgehog
06-02-2009, 10:26 PM
I'd be surprised if the 500 EFI didn't already have a manifold air temp sensor that you can tap into via the factory computer.

Yes, the MEFI does and you can log them. I dunno how to tap in real time without a laptop. I am just putting my toe in now so please speak up is anyone knows this answer.

We are also going to play around with pre blower temp. Fix got me thinking about the whole blower heat thing. I would expect that a blower sucking in 70 degree air would be much happier than a blower sucking in 120+ air.

MOP
06-03-2009, 08:13 AM
Log onto Boat Freaks for this one, it is for carbed engines very interesting would do away with a bunch of plumbing!

http://forums.boatfreaks.org/showthread.php?t=934&highlight=air+temp

There wil be some re-mapping or jet changing on carbed stuff as things will lean out a bit with the cooler air temps, but in general things will be happier and you should go a bit faster.

MOP
06-03-2009, 08:21 AM
I went on the Super Chiller site they don't show that carb chiller must not have been a seller!

BigGrizzly
06-03-2009, 08:22 AM
I had often wondered about the long tubes from the cooler to the intake, raising temperature significantly. So I asked. The answer was 4 degrees at most and it was mostly caused buy the bends ( sharpness of them). Darn he has almost all the answers. I come up with a question and I get the been there done that almost every time. If my grandfather was alive I would love to throw Him, Warren, Garry and his Dad into a room and be a fly on the wall of the dyno room.

The Hedgehog
06-03-2009, 08:40 AM
I went on the Super Chiller site they don't show that carb chiller must not have been a seller!

Hmm, I wonder if it was ever dyno tested. I know that the K&N People have done some of that but that also tied in with the filter.

Look on CXRacing's site. They have some cheap intercoolers that could be used as precoolers. Boost or no boost, I have yet to hear someone tell me that their boat runs better on a 90 degree day than a 70 degree day. A good question would be how much temperature drop could you expect from unboosted (and less dense) air given a certain core size.

SilverBack
06-03-2009, 10:16 AM
If the water temp is 80 ad the air temp is 90 I don't think that you will see a big difference on the intake side of the Procharger. You still have to trade off flow for decrease in intake air temp. I think that after the air has been compressed you would see the biggest benefit. I have thought about running two intercoolers on my boat to see but the one does the job and I think that the restriction may put you at a point of diminishing returns.

The Hedgehog
06-03-2009, 10:56 AM
If the water temp is 80 ad the air temp is 90 I don't think that you will see a big difference on the intake side of the Procharger. You still have to trade off flow for decrease in intake air temp. I think that after the air has been compressed you would see the biggest benefit. I have thought about running two intercoolers on my boat to see but the one does the job and I think that the restriction may put you at a point of diminishing returns.

No, probably not. At that point the best solution would be to pull in fresh 90 degree air as opposed to 120 degree air. Oh yeah, that is why they have scoops:bonk:

Now if we could apply a refrigeration technique to really cool it, maybe 30-40 degrees, Hmmm?

VetteLT193
06-03-2009, 11:04 AM
check this out, no idea on cost...

http://www.rinda.com/acro/Merc_manual_v5.pdf

The Hedgehog
06-03-2009, 11:23 AM
check this out, no idea on cost...
http://www.rinda.com/acro/Merc_manual_v5.pdf

Those are good to have. I have used one before. A few hundred bucks if you look around. I may very well borrow one and try it for the manifold air temp end.

Tex has software that logs the same info off the ECU. Correlating intake air temp to manifold temp will be a treat at higher speeds.

MOP
06-03-2009, 11:30 AM
I know I run better spring and fall, cooler temps do make a ndifference. With the engine boxes getting to 100+ it has to make everything hotter and hurt performance.
I thought of a scoop with a box glassed to the under side of the hatch that would fit fairly tight over the breather. Awhile back Rootsy brought up running with the hatch off, I rigged mine with a block holding it up about 2 inches. I had no base line just two runs to judge by, hatch blocked up was worth a tad over 50 RPM @WOT and just under 1 MPH. That is the gain on mine at WOT where the engine is working the hardest, I bet the benefits at mid range are even a little better. i no i no who cares about mid range. I feel most of us on spend a very little percentage of our boating time at high at rpm's.

VetteLT193
06-03-2009, 12:07 PM
Those are good to have. I have used one before. A few hundred bucks if you look around. I may very well borrow one and try it for the manifold air temp end.
Tex has software that logs the same info off the ECU. Correlating intake air temp to manifold temp will be a treat at higher speeds.


We should make a mini computer to fit in the dash, use the software to display whatever you want whenever you want.

besides making cool 'stickers' I'm also a programmer. :wink:

The Hedgehog
06-03-2009, 12:58 PM
We should make a mini computer to fit in the dash, use the software to display whatever you want whenever you want.
besides making cool 'stickers' I'm also a programmer. :wink:

That does it, you are coming along for our next dial in and testing session. It is time for you to learn MEFI.

You may just need a little more ZX time to push you over the edge.

VetteLT193
06-03-2009, 01:14 PM
That does it, you are coming along for our next dial in and testing session. It is time for you to learn MEFI.
You may just need a little more ZX time to push you over the edge.

I don't need to be pushed, I need the guy to loosen up by $5k and I'm in there. Financing is set already.

Be happy to come along, we'll make it work. I have experience in ECM's from the corvette world, it can't be that far off.

I've had an idea for a while about tapping into NMEA and trying to use a touch screen chart plotter to work a remote mounted computer. I'm not sure if it's possible, it's tough to find good technical data on everything.

gcarter
06-03-2009, 02:37 PM
I bet a water/air cooler would work real good in some parts of the country.
Other places, like here in Florida it'd probably be worthless as the water temp often matches the air temp......90* or so.

The Hedgehog
06-03-2009, 02:54 PM
I don't need to be pushed, I need the guy to loosen up by $5k and I'm in there. Financing is set already.
Be happy to come along, we'll make it work. I have experience in ECM's from the corvette world, it can't be that far off.
I've had an idea for a while about tapping into NMEA and trying to use a touch screen chart plotter to work a remote mounted computer. I'm not sure if it's possible, it's tough to find good technical data on everything.

The touch screen plotter thing would be cool. Kind of like Merc Smartcraft.

The MEFI is a pita and my engine builder has the code. I dunno if I would want to play around with my 850 too much as a slight mistake could be expensive. A bunch of that programming is experience based and knowing how much pulse width will affect AFR. To me the experience thing is kind of like playing around with a bank interest rate risk simulation model (one of the things I do). I have clients that go in once a quarter and chase their tails. I have done thousands of simulations and can usually tweak a model in about 30 minutes vs a day or two.

BigGrizzly
06-04-2009, 10:45 AM
Boy did we vary or what. Getting hack to the question. A cooler is always good, Water temp is always cooler than air regardless of where you are. With a supercharger even if the water was 90 and air was 100, the compressor would be upwards of 150->180+ degrees and the cooler could drop it down to 100, that is significant. In the real world if air is 100 as has been the case here in Georgia on evasion the lake water is 80+ but well under 90. The humidity adds to the cooling effect. So the advantage would be significant to say the least. I have seriously though about putting a cooler on my normally aspirated boat.

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 10:59 AM
Boy did we vary or what. Getting hack to the question. A cooler is always good, Water temp is always cooler than air regardless of where you are. With a supercharger even if the water was 90 and air was 100, the compressor would be upwards of 150->180+ degrees and the cooler could drop it down to 100, that is significant. In the real world if air is 100 as has been the case here in Georgia on evasion the lake water is 80+ but well under 90. The humidity adds to the cooling effect. So the advantage would be significant to say the least. I have seriously though about putting a cooler on my normally aspirated boat.

Wow, that is cool that you have that thought too. I agree with Cgarter's comment on the Florida temp differential. Up here you can have a 15 degree differential on a hot day and more early in the summer. For instance, we have temps in the 90's this week and the surface temp might be cracking 70.

I am sure that this has been done before but I will probably try it. Worst case, I learn something.

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 11:03 AM
Hey Tex,

Your software works real time right?

We can start by monitoring temps at the manifold. Then compare intercooler results, then pipe in completely fresh air, then double cooled

SilverBack
06-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Hedge ...make sure to look at your boost level versus your temps. When you add the extra cooler you are going to add more restriction and therefore you could lower the boost. When you make less boost you generate less heat. I am interested in your experiment and just want to make sure that it is apples to apples. It would also be nice to measure the pressure on both sides of the cooler to see what the pressure drop is.

I thought about the Gorilla setup that I have running N/A with the super chiller. It is set up so that the cooler is after the throttle body. I would think that would work pretty good.

Another thing that comes to mind in this experiment is that drag racers have gone to using air to water intercoolers and using a tank that inside another tank that you pack with ice/ice water. I am sure that you have seen cool cans for the fuel line that hold ice and this is the same kind of thing for the air instead of the fuel. Has anyone checked the fuel temp after the fuel is compressed to 45-50 psi?? I know that you run a fuel cooler. How much cooling effect do you get from the fuel cooler?

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 12:27 PM
Hedge ...make sure to look at your boost level versus your temps. When you add the extra cooler you are going to add more restriction and therefore you could lower the boost. When you make less boost you generate less heat. I am interested in your experiment and just want to make sure that it is apples to apples. It would also be nice to measure the pressure on both sides of the cooler to see what the pressure drop is.

I thought about the Gorilla setup that I have running N/A with the super chiller. It is set up so that the cooler is after the throttle body. I would think that would work pretty good.

Another thing that comes to mind in this experiment is that drag racers have gone to using air to water intercoolers and using a tank that inside another tank that you pack with ice/ice water. I am sure that you have seen cool cans for the fuel line that hold ice and this is the same kind of thing for the air instead of the fuel. Has anyone checked the fuel temp after the fuel is compressed to 45-50 psi?? I know that you run a fuel cooler. How much cooling effect do you get from the fuel cooler?

Yeah, I heard about the drag car thing. Hmmm

I will be sure to watch the boost levels. That is a good point. The datalog software actually has that info too.

MOP
06-04-2009, 02:08 PM
Have not dropped in a day or two, the posts talking about temps in the 90's and it not being worth it! Do what I did find a thermometer that will read to about 150 Degrees set it up where it will stay put then lift the hatch after a mile or two. It will be way hotter then 90 under the hatch even on a 70 degree day, anything we can do to reduce compartment temps will enhance performance. My engine makes 180 degrees my reading of 145 degrees was on an 80 degree day, I am willing to bet most boats will have similar temp differentials between compartment/engine temp. You huffer guys run cool 130-140 that will still put your compartment temp in and around 100, so you cool it with 80 degree water there has to be a gain.

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 02:21 PM
Have not dropped in a day or two, the posts talking about temps in the 90's and it not being worth it! Do what I did find a thermometer that will read to about 150 Degrees set it up where it will stay put then lift the hatch after a mile or two. It will be way hotter then 90 under the hatch even on a 70 degree day, anything we can do to reduce compartment temps will enhance performance. My engine makes 180 degrees my reading of 145 degrees was on an 80 degree day, I am willing to bet most boats will have similar temp differentials between compartment/engine temp. You huffer guys run cool 130-140 that will still put your compartment temp in and around 100, so you cool it with 80 degree water there has to be a gain.

I agree

SilverBack
06-04-2009, 02:22 PM
Have not dropped in a day or two, the posts talking about temps in the 90's and it not being worth it! Do what I did find a thermometer that will read to about 150 Degrees set it up where it will stay put then lift the hatch after a mile or two. It will be way hotter then 90 under the hatch even on a 70 degree day, anything we can do to reduce compartment temps will enhance performance. My engine makes 180 degrees my reading of 145 degrees was on an 80 degree day, I am willing to bet most boats will have similar temp differentials between compartment/engine temp. You huffer guys run cool 130-140 that will still put your compartment temp in and around 100, so you cool it with 80 degree water there has to be a gain.


Point taken! I have talked about making a lighter hatch and putting a scoop or scoops in it. I also have what is called a "cool blue hose" on my Cummins diesel. The intake runs right by the turbo and it gets pretty hot. It is basically a silicon hose that runs back to the filter and then I have a cold air intake. I could easily do the same thing and run a 4 inch hose from the intake of the blower to the big air intake scoop on the back of my boat. Speaking of the big scoop at the rear. I think my boat has the best stock air scoops that I have seen on a boat. It really keeps the engine compartment cool. They look like jet intakes almost. HH does your boat have the same kind of scoops molded into the boat? I know that I can run my boat pretty hard and lift the hatch and the center of the manifold is still pretty cool.

BigGrizzly
06-04-2009, 08:05 PM
In a boosted engine the blower makes the heat not the restriction in the cooler. It is very possible and er have done it with 2 coolers but since they were the same size the boost remained the same but the air was cooler. For instance that cooler on kith boat looks likem the 2500 cfm cooler, which should be about 1000 hp engine. They brag about the low restriction. So on a 900hp boosted engine there should be no or little boost but hp could rise due to ait temp cooler. All this has been done in road racing and drag racing for years. There should be a ton of information out there. This stuff is relatively new to marine althoe Honda did a supercharged cooled propane powered bf 90 The government.

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 08:27 PM
Point taken! I have talked about making a lighter hatch and putting a scoop or scoops in it. I also have what is called a "cool blue hose" on my Cummins diesel. The intake runs right by the turbo and it gets pretty hot. It is basically a silicon hose that runs back to the filter and then I have a cold air intake. I could easily do the same thing and run a 4 inch hose from the intake of the blower to the big air intake scoop on the back of my boat. Speaking of the big scoop at the rear. I think my boat has the best stock air scoops that I have seen on a boat. It really keeps the engine compartment cool. They look like jet intakes almost. HH does your boat have the same kind of scoops molded into the boat? I know that I can run my boat pretty hard and lift the hatch and the center of the manifold is still pretty cool.

Not the same scoops. That is one of the things I liked about the older ZX boats.

The Hedgehog
06-04-2009, 08:29 PM
In a boosted engine the blower makes the heat not the restriction in the cooler. It is very possible and er have done it with 2 coolers but since they were the same size the boost remained the same but the air was cooler. For instance that cooler on kith boat looks likem the 2500 cfm cooler, which should be about 1000 hp engine. They brag about the low restriction. So on a 900hp boosted engine there should be no or little boost but hp could rise due to ait temp cooler. All this has been done in road racing and drag racing for years. There should be a ton of information out there. This stuff is relatively new to marine althoe Honda did a supercharged cooled propane powered bf 90 The government.

That is a bunch of it. It is the blower heat that I am trying to address here. I am thinking that higher intake heat will = more blower heat.

This also gets into a discussion about a hotter blower and the whole bearing thing.

Last Real Texan
06-04-2009, 08:51 PM
Hey Tex,

Your software works real time right?

We can start by monitoring temps at the manifold. Then compare intercooler results, then pipe in completely fresh air, then double cooled
Real time data logging...yes sir

SilverBack
06-04-2009, 09:37 PM
In a blown engine if the restriction is between the blower and the throttle body it will cause you to make more boost to overcome the restriction which makes more heat. If the restriction is between the intake of the blower and the atmosphere it will cause you to make less boost and artificially lower the temperature because you are not compressing the air as much.

BigGrizzly
06-05-2009, 09:29 AM
Actually if the restriction is between the atmosphere and the blower it will actually generate more heat because the blower has to work harder. This is the reason Procharger does not make an air cleaner. I designed one with the capability if 18 psi of boost. BTW It works for up to 1600 hp. As for boost measurement it all depends where you take the reading. Most take it from the intake manifold some take it from the carb in a box for fuel pressure regulation. You need to home in the issues and forget the what if thing. The engine only cares about volume and temp of the air and the amount of fuel in it