TRS repower

[KerrLake]

I am looking for a crate engine to repower my 86 TRS setup. Are there any options other than a Gen. 4 block that will bolt in with no change in setup?

[VetteLT193]

Mk IV is easiest unless you are looking for a fully dressed crate? The later blocks will give you problems dressing it if you plan on using parts off of your engine like intake, etc.

Gen V and VI have a bunch of changes that could wind up being a PITA to deal with.

depending on what you want, my brother Eddie has a cheap Mark IV for sale freshly rebuilt.

[mrfixxall]

If your switching from a mark or a gen 4 block to a newer gen v or gen VI you will need to get a newer style seapump(with the fuel pump boss to mount the fuel pump) or run a electric fuel pump and a new flywheel..Everything else will fit,the differance between the gen v and gen VI is the gen v has a flat tappet cam and the gen VI has a hydrolic roller.both blocks dont have a ruel pump boss in the blocks to mount the fuel pump to..also the gen VI has revised coolent passages.Merc makes conversion kit to go from a mark/gen v-VI kit but its pricy, about $1000.00 bucks but you can find the seapump on ebay for 400.00-550.00.my choice would be a genVI 502.

[KerrLake]

I'm not sure what I am going to do yet. I'm just starting to check around on prices. I am in the 450hp neighborhood now and it is really good power for my boat. I would like to stay at or above on HP. I have thought about a short block and reusing my heads, intake, carb, exhaust, as they are all new. I have also thought of having the builder go through my engine again and save it for a 22c that needs repower. I don't want to spend the summer working on it, so I am leaning towards a dressed engine, IF I can find one at the right price. I had a guy who sells Merc. packages tell me it doesn't matter what block it is, it will bolt on.

[mrfixxall]

I'm not sure what I am going to do yet. I'm just starting to check around on prices. I am in the 450hp neighborhood now and it is really good power for my boat. I would like to stay at or above on HP. I have thought about a short block and reusing my heads, intake, carb, exhaust, as they are all new. I have also thought of having the builder go through my engine again and save it for a 22c that needs repower. I don't want to spend the summer working on it, so I am leaning towards a dressed engine, IF I can find one at the right price. I had a guy who sells Merc. packages tell me it doesn't matter what block it is, it will bolt on.


It would be cheeper to stick with the engine you have now and rebuild it. your heads you have now will only work with the earlier gen and mark blocks and not on the gen v or VI blocks with the revised coolent passages,they make a special head gasket but i dont trust it. theirs a complete drop in efi on boat freaks for 4k but its not the hp your looking for tho..

[Cuda]

It would be cheeper to stick with the engine you have now and rebuild it. your heads you have now will only work with the earlier gen and mark blocks and not on the gen v or VI blocks with the revised coolent passages,they make a special head gasket but i dont trust it. theirs a complete drop in efi on boat freaks for 4k but its not the hp your looking for tho..
The heads depend on what year they were. The 1982 454 had large port heads, and are a lot easier to get hp from. People go round and round trying to get performance from peanut port heads.

[KerrLake]

Would it be impossible to mount a 500EFI to a Trs setup?

[BERTRAM BOY]

Would it be impossible to mount a 500EFI to a Trs setup?


Not at all. You just have to make sure you install a pilot bushing in the end of the crankshaft to support the input shaft of the Merctrans.

[Air 22]

Would it be impossible to mount a 500EFI to a Trs setup?

Brian...that would be nice...:wink::pimp::yes:

[BUIZILLA]

and, perhaps, slightly different fuel plumbing..

[BERTRAM BOY]

I believe the HP500EFI uses a mechanical pump driven from the raw water pump, right? The fuel plumbing shouldn't be that much different.

[VetteLT193]

There are good deals on the carbed 500, don't forget about that one

[Air 22]

The feed pump is mechanical and the injection pump is electric.:wink:

[BERTRAM BOY]

Dwight,
Isn't your injection pump part of the cool fuel that comes with the engine?

[KerrLake]

There are good deals on the carbed 500, don't forget about that one


Do you guys find the HP500 and 500EFI's on OSO or is there another hot spot?

[KerrLake]

The feed pump is mechanical and the injection pump is electric.:wink:
Is there a fuel line return to the tank also?



The engine mounts are different too aren't they and could I use my flywheel and bellhousing?

[BERTRAM BOY]

Do you guys find the HP500 and 500EFI's on OSO or is there another hot spot?

You could build your own.

[Air 22]

Is there a fuel line return to the tank also?



The engine mounts are different too aren't they and could I use my flywheel and bellhousing?


No return line to fuel tank....

Engine mounts are the same as the 502 I had from 2006..

Fuel pump is located on the starboard side just in front of the fuel pump assembly....just like the 502:)

[Air 22]

Do you guys find the HP500 and 500EFI's on OSO or is there another hot spot?


OSO is where I found mine....10k with 100hrs..87 of them At idle and verified on laptop...:wink:....and then sold my 502 on OSO for 8k...its sure a good place as any to look..:)

[KerrLake]

OSO is where I found mine....10k with 100hrs..87 of them At idle and verified on laptop...:wink:....and then sold my 502 on OSO for 8k...its sure a good place as any to look..:)


I think I remember when you bought it. There were two of them. Haven't seen anything close to that dressed out complete. Is there something special going on with the exhaust tips? It seems that I remember you having tips made. Can you not use flexible exhuast pipe?

[KerrLake]

You could build your own.


It takes so long to get all the pieces for an engine build machined, put together, and so forth. I was thinking of dressed engine. I am always open to suggestions though. I just went through the engine build process last year using the "good stuff" and it is not so good right now.:confused:

[Air 22]

I think I remember when you bought it. There were two of them. Haven't seen anything close to that dressed out complete. Is there something special going on with the exhaust tips? It seems that I remember you having tips made. Can you not use flexible exhuast pipe?


Yes my 500 was one of two. The engine came with Mercury Racing Header's and Tailpipes...the tailpipes are part of the exhaust system and are water jacketed and are a required part of this engine. My engine came from another boat and the tailpipes didn't line up with my transom holes...off by a 1/2 in +-...so I had two options...re-do my new transom or have custom tails made. ?I sold my existing tails on OSO for $600 and had CMI make my tailspipes with the precise measurements..$800.00...sometimes tailpipes will line up from boat to boat...I wasn't so lucky...and being a somewhat perfectionist and having my entire engine compartment overhauled...wasn't about to a cobb job with miss alignment...:wink:

Like Bertram Boy said u can build up to a 500...ck with Widowmaker...he has a veryreliable builder and is very happy with his 660HP+ eng:wink: Its all about timing and $$...I was very lucky indeed but the god's were aligned as I wouldn't have pulled my eng if it were not for the fiberglass repairs needed....then while it was out I happen across the 500"s:shades:...anyway keep ur options open and go with what you're comfortable with...blue motor's are very reliable and tested:yes:..but u can find alot of reliable HP with the right builder....:crossfing:

[MDonziM]

OSO is where I found mine....10k with 100hrs..87 of them At idle and verified on laptop...:wink:....and then sold my 502 on OSO for 8k...its sure a good place as any to look..:)

How many hrs did your 502 have?

[Air 22]

How many hrs did your 502 have?

80hrs....

[KerrLake]

Well after looking at engines for a while, I have decided to rebuild what I have. I already have Edle. Performer aluminum heads, Dana exhaust, Holley 800, Air Gap intake. I was talking with the engine builder and he feels like he can get me a reliable 600hp if we stroke to a 496. Any thoughts, suggestions of what not to do? I am guessing I had around 475hp or so and was running in the low 60's taching 5500. I did not ever reprop and had went from 56 to begin with. I am thinking with the right prop I could have gotten to 64 or 65 if I was lucky. Think I could hit 70? I'm really not so hung up on the speed, but it sure is fun to put the hammer down and let her rip while saying bahahaha. Do you guys think that reliable 600hp is wishful thinking?

[BigGrizzly]

If done correctly and YOU don't beat it yes reliable can be done. But rule of thumb 500 hp is the max on a 454. The 502 is better suited for 600HP. The stroker is not cheap.

[mrfixxall]

Well after looking at engines for a while, I have decided to rebuild what I have. I already have Edle. Performer aluminum heads, Dana exhaust, Holley 800, Air Gap intake. I was talking with the engine builder and he feels like he can get me a reliable 600hp if we stroke to a 496. Any thoughts, suggestions of what not to do? I am guessing I had around 475hp or so and was running in the low 60's taching 5500. I did not ever reprop and had went from 56 to begin with. I am thinking with the right prop I could have gotten to 64 or 65 if I was lucky. Think I could hit 70? I'm really not so hung up on the speed, but it sure is fun to put the hammer down and let her rip while saying bahahaha. Do you guys think that reliable 600hp is wishful thinking?


Good choice! go with your builders reccomendations,this way if it dont make the power you want hes responsible for the build,theirs many differant combonations out their but just make sure the lobe centerline on the cam is 112+deg or it wont like to idle..

[KerrLake]

If done correctly and YOU don't beat it yes reliable can be done. But rule of thumb 500 hp is the max on a 454. The 502 is better suited for 600HP. The stroker is not cheap.

Think it is a bad idea? I like to run it pretty hard every now and then.

[mrfixxall]

Think it is a bad idea? I like to run it pretty hard every now and then.

as grizz stated 454 cid/500 hp..go forward with the build, we just built a 496 9.00 compression with a set of merlin big oval cast iron heads,cam motion hyd roller cam and some mild port work and it made a tad over 600 hp and almost 700 ft lbs of tq @ 5600 rpm's..a good scat forged stroker kit is around 1500.00 then the valve train is another 1000.00 then machine work is around another 1000.00 then misc parts and you got a good set of heads so i say for under 4500.00 you will have a smokin motor:)

[BigGrizzly]

Just Remember the more power the more gentle you have to be. There are hundreds of good combination s out there. I have my preferences as does Mr Fix. What really matters is that your builder does it the way he knows best. Do not try to make him do it some other way you have heard about, that always leads into trouble. If I were not a builder I would have a 47o to 500 hp done and end it right there.

[VetteLT193]

Kerr: no matter what you do, ask your builder what "reliable" is. To some guys, reliable is getting 100 hours. Others it is 200. Some, 800 or 1000+ hours.

Some say 'reliable' power is an engine that needs valve adjustments every 50 hours. etc. etc.

If a builder says he can build a reliable engine that will last 400 hours then he should have no trouble with a 200 hour warranty. Usually when you ask for the warranty you will get a more straight answer on what 'reliable' means. :nilly:

[KerrLake]

Kerr: no matter what you do, ask your builder what "reliable" is. To some guys, reliable is getting 100 hours. Others it is 200. Some, 800 or 1000+ hours.

Some say 'reliable' power is an engine that needs valve adjustments every 50 hours. etc. etc.

If a builder says he can build a reliable engine that will last 400 hours then he should have no trouble with a 200 hour warranty. Usually when you ask for the warranty you will get a more straight answer on what 'reliable' means. :nilly:

Dropped the boat off to him yesterday and got a chance to talk to him for a long while. I must say I was quite impressed with what he had to say. He is all about the torque and not just HP.

Stay tuned..........

[KerrLake]

Is it ok to turn the trs and tranny 5500-5600 rpms or is that too much for it speaking in terms of longevity?

[mrfixxall]

Is it ok to turn the trs and tranny 5500-5600 rpms or is that too much for it speaking in terms of longevity?

if your worried about it you may want to have it rebuilt or i can give you a smokin deal on a velvet drive with the low oil pick up rated 800+ hp, 2-8 plate coolers,bellhousing..

you will have to move your motor forward a little tho!

[KerrLake]

if your worried about it you may want to have it rebuilt or i can give you a smokin deal on a velvet drive with the low oil pick up rated 800+ hp, 2-8 plate coolers,bellhousing..

you will have to move your motor forward a little tho!


Thanks fix. I just had Huber do my trans and he add three extra plates. I was just wondering if that is too many r's for the trs and tranny to last for a long time.

[mrfixxall]

Thanks fix. I just had Huber do my trans and he add three extra plates. I was just wondering if that is too many r's for the trs and tranny to last for a long time.


As long as you have a big cooler on the trans it shouldnt be a problem. for the drive,what kills them is to much bite in the prop and people try to control the rpm with alot of prop bite.as for me i prefer to run a bigger pitch with more slip# and its easied on the drive.

[KerrLake]

Talked to the engine builder today and 2 rod bearings were spun and main bearings were paper thin. So it looks like it is going to have a 496 in her when she comes back. If I have to buy a new crank anyway we may as well go 496. After getting over the sticker shock, I am getting pretty excited. It definately seems that a little metal went a long way in ruining my engine!

[BUIZILLA]

496 crank with +400 rods will turn a nice prop...

[KerrLake]

496 crank with +400 rods will turn a nice prop...
I could spin the 23 mirage to 54-5500 before. I'm hoping for quite a bit more hp, probably around 100 more or so. Think a 25 would be the starting place or larger??

[VetteLT193]

I could spin the 23 mirage to 54-5500 before. I'm hoping for quite a bit more hp, probably around 100 more or so. Think a 25 would be the starting place or larger??

or 27. I bet my bro will send you his 'worked' 25 M+ to try for the cost of shipping. at least you can see somewhat where you are with it. I'm looking on USPS to see if it will fit in one of their flat fee boxes, gotta measure a prop.

[BigGrizzly]

KeerLake as stated in the PM, I will be glad to help.

[KerrLake]

Got to run the boat for the 1st time this past weekend. Wow what a difference! 600 hp really woke this boat up. It ran 69 @5300 on the gps with the 23 mirage. I'm going to try a new prop and see what it will do. I don't know if it is my imagination or not, but the boat seems to trim completely different too. I was definately smiling this weekend! I took out the silencers in the tips to get the full effect, and I don't think they will be going back in either. It was a good Labor Day weekend.

[Fast Shafts]

Kerr,
What kind of boat do you have? I also just built a 427 tall deck into a 496. I used oval port heads, 800 carb and a crane 139651 cam. I'm running a 24 Sunsation at exactly 70 mph with Bravo 4 blade 24". I never had it dynoed, but guessing at 525 horspower. Was your engine duynoed?
Thanks,
Bob

[Donzi_Dude]

I could spin the 23 mirage to 54-5500 before. I'm hoping for quite a bit more hp, probably around 100 more or so. Think a 25 would be the starting place or larger??




600 hp really woke this boat up. It ran 69 @5300 on the gps with the 23 mirage. I'm going to try a new prop and see what it will do.



:confused:

[BUIZILLA]

Kerr,
What kind of boat do you have? I also just built a 427 tall deck into a 496. shouldn't that be a 482 at 4.250 x 4.250?? a 496 would be 4.250 x 4.350.... that's a very odd crank..

[The Hedgehog]

Got to run the boat for the 1st time this past weekend. Wow what a difference! 600 hp really woke this boat up. It ran 69 @5300 on the gps with the 23 mirage. I'm going to try a new prop and see what it will do. I don't know if it is my imagination or not, but the boat seems to trim completely different too. I was definately smiling this weekend! I took out the silencers in the tips to get the full effect, and I don't think they will be going back in either. It was a good Labor Day weekend.

600hp. Now that should be a bunch of fun! What is your combo?

[KerrLake]

:confused:
I don't understand the rpm differences either. It seems that I can trim the boat differently than I could before. It seems like you can power thru it if that makes any sense. I also have new guages too, so alot of variables are different than before. All I know is the boat is a blast to drive now. The engine is a stroked 454 bored .0030 to a 492. It was modeled after an engine that dynoed at 638 hp. Mine was not dynoed, but builder seems to think it is around 600 hp. Everybody that got a ride this weekend was smiling as much as I was. Got to love it!

[KerrLake]

600hp. Now that should be a bunch of fun! What is your combo?

492 around 600 hp Borg trans and trs. Z-25

[Donzi_Dude]

im wondering what cylinder heads your running.


are you saying the boat would only RPM 5300?

hee,hee,
the tach might be off.
:wink:



sounds like its running good and your happy.
congrats!

[mrfixxall]

492 around 600 hp Borg trans and trs. Z-25


A 454 bored .030 over with a 4.250 crank makes ita 489 cid..stock bore is 4.250,now add .030 which makes it a 4.280 bore x 4.280 bore x 4.250 stroke x .7854 x 8 = 489.16722 :) he may have went .040 over but i havnt seen that piston in a stroker set up..

i dont understand it either,you were spinning 5400 before and now your spinning 5300 with 200+ hp..you should be in the 80's are you sure he used a stroker crank?:confused:

i think you may have some more in it,,can we see some pics please:)

[BigGrizzly]

80 is not attainable with that engine and trans and out drive combo and with that prop. Now I have done this a long time and this is a 25zx a heavy boat but a very capable boat. If he get into the mid 70s we ars doing something. On my Criterion the 23 at 5000 would net me 63 mph with the old 330. So it looks like testing is in order, got that covered. Next the tack could be off a little. This is a nice experiment. Also remember the out drive and trans are rebuilt and a tad tight. It is down hill from here. Kerr, you are going to love this.:yes::yes:

[KerrLake]

im wondering what cylinder heads your running.

are you saying the boat would only RPM 5300?

sounds like its running good and your happy.

congrats!
According to the tach in it now it is reading 5300. Could be off. Before I would trim the boat until the prop started to slip and then I would bring it back in a little. I may have been making the prop slip too much giving me the extra rpms. If I trim it that much it starts to get a little squirrelly at WOT, so I haven't played with it that much. Before the 1st rebuild with the stock 370 trs I was running around 56. After the 1st rebuild I was running around 62-63. This last go round put me to the 69. This is all with the same 23 Mirage. The boat used to porpoise at wot and it is smooth as can be now. I can't explain the rpms either unless the tach is off.

Heads are Edlebrock Performer aluminum.

It looks like a tornado behind the boat at wot. I am definately happy with it.

[KerrLake]

A 454 bored .030 over with a 4.250 crank makes ita 489 cid..stock bore is 4.250,now add .030 which makes it a 4.280 bore x 4.280 bore x 4.250 stroke x .7854 x 8 = 489.16722 :) he may have went .040 over but i havnt seen that piston in a stroker set up..

i dont understand it either,you were spinning 5400 before and now your spinning 5300 with 200+ hp..you should be in the 80's are you sure he used a stroker crank?:confused:

i think you may have some more in it,,can we see some pics please:)


I'll have to find out how he came up with the 492. I know it is only bored .030. It has "maul" pistons in it...I don't know the correct spelling. I am sure it is a stroker crank. My cousin was the only one with a camera. When he sends pics I will post them.

[Donzi_Dude]

It looks like a tornado behind the boat at wot. I am definately happy with it.


OK that makes a lot of sence.

:boat:

[BUIZILLA]

It has "maul" pistons in it.... it's MAHLE

[BigGrizzly]

The porpoise effect is easy to explain, it is speed and trim related. As soon as you put more ponies in the speed goes up(usually) which means trim is different, especially on that hull. In stock form the tach probably was really below 5300 with that prop. A 330 on a 22, can barely turn a 23 above 5000. That trim gauge is inaccurate as heck. The engine displacement is probably 496, unless he used 0.020 over not 0.30 over. It does not really matter at this point because you are definitely a lot faster:yes: So many times it does not happen that way. You have all seen it before a lot of $$$$ and only 3 MPH. Kerr, your doing great in comparison to most. Feels good does it not. As you know I have done this a long time and your in the upper 10 % of speed gains. That boat you have is no lightweight.:yes::yes:

[Donzi_Dude]

A 330 on a 22, can barely turn a 23 above 5000. That trim gauge is inaccurate as heck. That boat you have is no lightweight.:yes::yes:

thats great except he has a 370 and it was not stock, it had aftermarket heads,ect. i also dont think a stock 330 would spin a 23P mirage @ 5K in a Z-25, ever unless the trans was slipping.



492 around 600 hp Borg trans and trs. Z-25



80 is not attainable with that engine and trans and out drive combo and with that prop. Now I have done this a long time and this is a 25zx a heavy boat but a very capable boat. If he get into the mid 70s we ars doing something.



i think a Z-25 weights in wet @ well over 4K. i dont know how it compares to a 25ZX. 600HP might not get him into the 80's but close.

the slip numbers dont seem right. it sounds like the boat is making much better low end and midrange. weather its actually making 600HP seems unlikely but the boat does seem to be running very good. i dont know if his heads are worked or not but the edelbrock rpm heads do not have a good reputation for making 600HP @ boat RPM. it seems hes much closer to 500HP than 600HP.


:boggled:

[KerrLake]

It is indeed a heavy boat. My 4400 lbs lift takes it out of the water just before it is full of air. I'm not really sure how it compares technically to the 25zx, but I think the hull is quite a bit different. I do believe that it is at least an honest 575 hp. That would be over 60 hp less than the engine that was dynoed. He did have Brodix heads. Anyway, not trying to start a pissing match. I can't find much info at all on this boat having hp that far from stock. I am anxious to try the 25 txp. I'm told that this prop lifts the boat out of the water a little more? I'll see if I can find a hull pic to post to compare to the 25 zx.

[KerrLake]

Hull pics

[mrfixxall]

Kerrlake. im not trying to start a pissing match,i just hate seeing prople getting burned by the words of the builder(the last motor i did made 600 + hp with this combination) i would like to know all the specs on the engine..

Compression ratio,flat top or mini dome pistons,what cam selection,lift and duration,intake center line,exhaust your using,intake manifold,carberation,stock fuel pump or a high volume,electric?which edlbroch rpm heads..the list goes on...

pics of the engine in the boat would be nice to!

o btw nice boat:)

[Donzi_Dude]

Kerrlake. im not trying to start a pissing match,i just hate seeing prople getting burned by the words of the builder(the last motor i did made 600 + hp with this combination) i would like to know all the specs on the engine..
Compression ratio,flat top or mini dome pistons,what cam selection,lift and duration,intake center line,exhaust your using,intake manifold,carberation,stock fuel pulp or a high volume,electric?which edlbroch rpm heads..the list goes on...
pics of the engine in the boat would be nice to!
o btw nice boat:)


well who are you going to spend your money with? the guy who tells you hes going to build you 500HP and rip up the lake or the guy that tells you hes going to build you 600HP and rip up the lake.

:wink:


there is more to boat performance than peak HP. it sounds like the boat is performing very well. it seems the man got what be paid for, a rebuilt 496 or whatever it is. i dont know if the builder used his own cam or the old one but its not like the guy wrote him a check and said make me 600HP.

if i was the OP i would be very happy with the way things turned out as everything seems to be working the way its supposed to other than the tach.


:shark:

[mrfixxall]

well who are you going to spend your money with? the guy who tells you hes going to build you 500HP and rip up the lake or the guy that tells you hes going to build you 600HP and rip up the lake.
:wink:
there is more to boat performance than peak HP. it sounds like the boat is performing very well. it seems the man got what be paid for, a rebuilt 496 or whatever it is. i dont know if the builder used his own cam or the old one but its not like the guy wrote him a check and said make me 600HP.
if i was the OP i would be very happy with the way things turned out as everything seems to be working the way its supposed to other than the tach.
:shark:


The guy that said he will build me a 600 hp engine and back :wink: at cha!

just courous what he had done to it this time around and hp does matter............................................ ..............................

[KerrLake]

Not exactly sure on all the exact numbers, but I'll find out. I'll tell you what I know. What we used from the old engine were the block bored .030, 800cfm Holley, airgap intake, edlebrock performer marine heads which were port matched, Dana exhaust with Vortex 4 risers, Thunderbolt ignition. New stroker crank, Mahle Pistons (thanks Buiz), and the cam is quite a bit more radical than I had before which was an Isky 270/280. The new cam is all roller. I think widowmaker is running the same cam. Compression is 10.?? It was late Friday when I picked it up and we were in a rush.

[KerrLake]

And..... this was definately not the same guy who built the 1st engine!

[BigGrizzly]

What I SAID IS a 330 in a 22, what was left out was with a TRS and Trans, can bearly turn above 5000. If you really think the 370 is much better you are sadly mistaken. I am well awhere of how heavy the boat is. Heck my Criterion is over 3700 pounds and is 3 feet shorter, there is a wetted surface to contend with too so my comments still stand. BTW I DO know who built this motor and the guy does Know what he is doing. Of course I could be wrong, Heck I only go 86 MPH and sell props.