View Full Version : Alright - the seawater pump on the 383...
The Hedgehog
05-27-2009, 10:20 PM
it is just wrong, wrong. Who in the hell changed it from the standard setup used on the Bravo BBC. I can take it apart on the 502/540 in no time and do it by braille. Now they moved to some goofy setup for the 383/377 and made it a PITA. It is not exactly easy to climb into an engine compartment of an 18 and once you accomplish that and find that they use metric bolts with a goofy pattern well....
Ahhh and not to mention that the impellers cost twice as much!!!
I hope that there is a dang good reason for that. Man, Whitney and Ky Donzi told me it was a PITA but I had no idea!
Anyone else been hazed by this. I could use a good suggestion to make this easier.
fogducker III
05-27-2009, 10:30 PM
it is just wrong, wrong. Who in the hell changed it from the standard setup used on the Bravo BBC. I can take it apart on the 502/540 in no time and do it by braille. Now they moved to some goofy setup for the 383/377 and made it a PITA. It is not exactly easy to climb into an engine compartment of an 18 and once you accomplish that and find that they use metric bolts with a goofy pattern well....
Ahhh and not to mention that the impellers cost twice as much!!!
I hope that there is a dang good reason for that. Man, Whitney and Ky Donzi told me it was a PITA but I had no idea!
Anyone else been hazed by this. I could use a good suggestion to make this easier.
I hear ya Hedge.........did my 377 recently and did the old 383 a couple of times, royal PITA. I did find though, removing the exhaust manifold and riser on that side was WAY easier, I know, time is money, but in the long run it is WAY easier and you know the job is done right.........:pizza:
Having said that, what was the change from the BBC Bravo to the 377????
The Hedgehog
05-28-2009, 08:38 AM
I hear ya Hedge.........did my 377 recently and did the old 383 a couple of times, royal PITA. I did find though, removing the exhaust manifold and riser on that side was WAY easier, I know, time is money, but in the long run it is WAY easier and you know the job is done right.........:pizza:
Having said that, what was the change from the BBC Bravo to the 377????
I can actually get into the bilge and under the manifold. It requires a contortionist move.
The bolt pattern is different and they use much smaller nuts. The impeller also costs twice as much (no big deal but makes you wonder why?)
SilverBack
05-28-2009, 08:45 AM
Eddie wouldn't do it for you? Are you trying to keep up with Tex??
Last Real Texan
05-28-2009, 08:49 AM
Eddie wouldn't do it for you? Are you trying to keep up with Tex??
Not with me he is just honeing his skills
I can actually get into the bilge and under the manifold. It requires a contortionist move.
The bolt pattern is different and they use much smaller nuts. The impeller also costs twice as much (no big deal but makes you wonder why?)
small nuts...twice the money, hmmm what are you doing in there?makinng a movie?
The slow boat
The older belt driven bronze pump is not that bad to service, unbolt the bracket drop it down loosen the clamps and pull the whole thing out. Note leave one clamp on a hose for ID-ing where they go when you put it back together. I have a complete SB setup like brandy new bronze if someone needs it!
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53141&highlight=SB+pump
BigGrizzly
05-28-2009, 09:16 AM
It is called parts commonization. A fancy word meaning chang to a new less expensive way to build and make more money, because the early stuff doesn't fit. Now your at the Merc Mercy, since others don't have it yet. With serp belts they are adapting auto stuff. Here is a new twist my new power steering pump has a metric pressure side and the stock fitting won't fit. This is a new old style pump. Are we having fun yet? I think If it were me and possible I would do the crank drive thing.
Randy mentions the crank pump, I did that! If you decide to go that route "MAKE SURE" you get the SB pump, my guy thought he was doing me a favor and gave me the BB pump. I have way to much water pressure now, the pump in my other post has the SB pulley but the same sized pump which ran about 30%+ slower then crank speed. To much water causes head gaskets to weep on raw cooled engine, also to much water in the exhaust cuts a fair amount of power due to the added back pressure. Between having to remove my under drive pulley and the added water I lost about 2 MPH, I have since machined the under drive pulley to accommodate the pump and will be adding a pressure relief valve to hopefully get back where I was.
Sweet Cheekz
05-28-2009, 10:42 AM
Hedge
I took out the impeller at AOTH Filled it with wood as I later found out and trust me it was no picnic in the 16 either. So hard I had to wait till my mechanic could get to it a week later and it took them 4 hours of frogging around to get it out and back in. We are going to move it up high the next time the motor comes out to make it more accessible but we haven't figured out were yet. Good luck
SC
Sweet Cheekz
05-28-2009, 10:43 AM
I hear ya Hedge......... I did find though, removing the exhaust manifold and riser on that side was WAY easier, I know, time is money, but in the long run it is WAY easier and you know the job is done right.........:pizza:
?
It was the only way for us!
It is possible to move the pump but you need a ready source of water for start up to keep the pump primed, what I did on the only boat that we tried this on was to mount the sea strainer (a good sized one) at the same height as the pump. This allowed filling the strainer to give the pump almost instant water, to the best of my knowledge it survived many a season.
Added note I for the life of me can not understand those that do not have a sea strainer on their rigs, to me it is just plain foolish not to have one. It increases impeller life catches the errant junk that you will run through sooner or later, the biggy is there is an excellent it will save your engine many times over!
Phil
Sweet Cheekz
05-28-2009, 12:15 PM
Aggreed Phil but we are struggleing to find a spot to put it where I can empty it Really hard on the 16 but we are going to try when we relocate the water pump
VetteLT193
05-28-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm surprised no one has done an electric raw water pump. Put the thing anywhere you want and it's always pumping at a good rate regardless of RPM.
I'm surprised no one has done an electric raw water pump. Put the thing anywhere you want and it's always pumping at a good rate regardless of RPM.
I have often thought of that, not sure of the pros & cons. Constant speed may not be good, to much pressure on the low end and maybe not enough on the high end. Do we have a pump specialist on the board!
I gave a lot of thought to the pump in the link below, quite a few lobstermen use them the require very little HP to drive them and pump a ton of water. Our rubber vaned pumps steal more HP. The pump in the link below must be mounted below the water line as they are not self priming, but once filled they will hold water enough to keep prime all season. Mind you all of our sea pumps are already below the water line. You can run them for many years without touching them, I was told that about every three years in commercial use they need a new shaft seal. I was going to install one when I put the 22 together but bowed to a non knowledgeable comment dumb me! If you read the literature the pump by design unloads pressure and requires less HP when doing so.
http://www.oberdorfer-pumps.com/Spec_sheets/81PB_Sheet.pdf
BigGrizzly
05-28-2009, 05:20 PM
Phil a good idea but your over thinking the issue. Now as to pressure 35 psi o n head gaskets especially blown ones. The electric raw water pump is easy but power to draw is a slight issue, I been working on this for awhile as well as electric power steering. As for a raw water pump designed like the normal vaned ones will always have constant pressyre and will not build up which is hy they use them if a centrifugal pump is used of the engine the pressure will build from 50 to 71 psi if engine driven- I worked with them for a while. The easiest thing to do is use a pressure relief valve. SM sea strainer has a port for one and i think one has one. A inline peco is what I have on our 16.
gcarter
05-28-2009, 07:01 PM
The main problems w/an electric raw water pump is the simple positive displacement properties like the rubber vane pump we all know and the friction requires quite a bit of power. It's a different animal that the electric centrifugal circ pumps I've used.
Maybe a carbon vane pump, but it may not run dry as well as the rubber vanes we all use. A carbon vane pump would probably be more expensive.
gcarter
05-28-2009, 07:04 PM
I try to keep reminding everyone there is always the crank driven Johnson seawater pump. It solves a lot of issues like it takes a bout 5 minutes to change the impellor.
The power consumption and variable speed are the main issues with electric. What I like about the Oberdorfer is the lack of having to do maintenance plus the durability that in its self is great, they are about a fool proof as you can get. Either way a relief valve is a must on most all setups, especially on raw cooled engines.
BigGrizzly
05-29-2009, 07:58 AM
MOP in Our application it is not a viable idea in a Lobster boat a trawler and the like is a different story. Trust me on this if run dry the best ceramic mechanical seal last 50 seconds at 3600 rpms. this is by Honda's and Thompson pumps too.
The Hedgehog
05-29-2009, 06:41 PM
Ok, just like anything else, now that have it out it is not as big of a deal. One big tip - 10mm gear wrench with a swivel. That makes life much better. Well it was still a PITA. With mine the best trick was to take out the fuel pump (mine is in a custom location).
The first pic makes it look easy. To understand the difficulty you need to ponder where I was when I took the pic. And no, not hanging upside down.
Take a look, this impeller would not make another season. I am doing some more thinking about what MOP said about the strainer and liking the idea.
Ok back to put it in. More fun
osur866
05-29-2009, 07:26 PM
Bill, I've been MIA for a few days and just saw this, yes it is a PITA to change as you remeber as we spoke over the winter, if your planning on upgrading the exhaust it would be a very good time to do so, taking the manifold and riser off make it a little easier for me and I aint as big as the ole' Hedge Hog :). As you found out after you take the bolts out you need to twist the whole pump assmebly so the algiment tab clears the flywheel. Steve
What is that pump housing made of? Looks like a nice design a ton better then the plastic crap and the multi gas/water setup always wondered who's brain child that was!!!
The Hedgehog
05-29-2009, 10:21 PM
Bill, I've been MIA for a few days and just saw this, yes it is a PITA to change as you remeber as we spoke over the winter, if your planning on upgrading the exhaust it would be a very good time to do so, taking the manifold and riser off make it a little easier for me and I aint as big as the ole' Hedge Hog :). As you found out after you take the bolts out you need to twist the whole pump assmebly so the algiment tab clears the flywheel. Steve
Yep, I figured out the whole bolts you need process. I actually took out ALL bolts before I got the pump off. Don't ask but it can be done. I thought that one of the back nuts hit another supporting bracket.
The Hedge may be a big guy but he is limber. I can actually get between the manifold and side. I took that pic from laying on the inner hull UNDER the manifold. I can not do that on both sides.
BigGrizzly
05-30-2009, 08:54 AM
MOP, I ditched the plastic and the 3 piece aluminum pump for the big$$$$ bronze one ( I bought mine when it was $259) only have to remove the enf plate and go. IFO, the plastic ones crack if run aground or freeze.
The Hedgehog
05-30-2009, 09:45 AM
What is that pump housing made of? Looks like a nice design a ton better then the plastic crap and the multi gas/water setup always wondered who's brain child that was!!!
Actually it is sturdier than that plastic one. The housing is made our of bronze.
smokediver
05-31-2009, 08:23 AM
pretty good info !
BigGrizzly
05-31-2009, 08:55 AM
I have the bronze merc replacement and it is really nice I got it when it was $279 now it is about $500+, but worth it.
I have the bronze merc replacement and it is really nice I got it when it was $279 now it is about $500+, but worth it.
I have the same setup like I posted earlier in this thread only it also has about $140 worth of the extras to mount it and drive it, Oh Such a deal can't believe it has not gone to a new home.
The Hedgehog
05-31-2009, 07:30 PM
I have the same setup like I posted earlier in tis threrad only it also has about $140 worth of the extras to mount it and drive it, Oh Such a deal can't believe it has not gone to a new home.
I would consider it but I am scared to go back in the bilge right now until I heal.
The bilge beats the Krap out of me these days just doing little spring thins!! Body is just getting to brittle!!!
The Hedgehog
05-31-2009, 09:22 PM
The bilge beats the Krap out of me these days just doing little spring thins!! Body is just getting to brittle!!!
You aint lying. My arms look like I am some sort of a junkie with track marks and bruises. I also have stringer bruises on my back. After about 14 showers the fiberglass seems to be gone.
BigGrizzly
06-01-2009, 08:12 AM
MOP I though you had a crank pump? Mine is the old big merc and fit wher the 3 piece aluminum pre plastic pump fits. I just got stuck once in the bilge once and had my youngest boy do it for me - he has to learn some way- darn college kids.
MOP I though you had a crank pump? Mine is the old big merc and fit wher the 3 piece aluminum pre plastic pump fits. I just got stuck once in the bilge once and had my youngest boy do it for me - he has to learn some way- darn college kids.
Yup I swapped to a crank pump last year, won't go into why I am not particularly happy with it. It caused a few issues that I am working on, time will tell. I had -0- issues with the Big bad Merc bronze pump but followed a whim and in some ways wish I had not, in my eyes the the Merc pump was far higher quality and grief free! I know that will spur some voices to speak out!!!!
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