Lubricants

[DC18]

Am nearing the 20 hour break in period. There are probably manny good oils out there. I like synthetics, hard to beat. Have looked into Royal Purple for engine oil (15W40) and their gear lube (75W90) for drive lube. A salesman at the dealer said that if I use anything but the Merc drive lube and have a drive failure, that Merc probably would not warranty the drive.
I have talked to other boaters who have used Royal Purple without any problems. They have also said that they experienced performance gains.
I have personally witnessed a vehicle that was chassis dinoed ( Ford Mustang w/20,00 miles) with conventional lubricants, pulled off the dino, drained engine, trans (manual) and differential fluids. The fluids were then replaced with synthetics and the vehicle redinoed. There was a 15 H.P. gain at the rear wheels over conventional lubricants. Your comments from experience would be appreciated. Boat is 18 Classic, 350 Mag and Bravo 1.

[CHACHI]

Am nearing the 20 hour break in period. There are probably manny good oils out there. I like synthetics, hard to beat. Have looked into Royal Purple for engine oil (15W40) and their gear lube (75W90) for drive lube. A salesman at the dealer said that if I use anything but the Merc drive lube and have a drive failure, that Merc probably would not warranty the drive.

A manufacture cannot make a warranty contingent on you, the consumer using the manufacture's parts, (including oils) unless the the manufacture supplies the parts at no charge for the warranty period.

This is the Magnesson-Moss Warranty Act.

This is not to say you still wouldn't have a battle with Merc in the event something should happen. They may warranty the "issue" but the marina may not have time to "look" at the problem until October, or maybe 2010.

Stick with the OE lube until the warranty is up, then run anything you want in what ever componet you want.

What ever you use, just change it, there are no miracles in a bottle.

Ken

[Cuda]

I mostly used whatever quality engine oil was on sale. You'd never notice 15 more hp in a boat.

I did run Mobil 1 in one of my engines in the Formula to see if it mattered from one engine to the other. No difference at all.

[BigGrizzly]

I am not going to get into this I have done it every year. When I worked At Honda I spent 6 month 24/7 running engines and testing different oils. It is now done by different departments now so it is un biased. One year by auto next by Motorcycle then Power equipment then Marine. Now when I do my stuff we do some similar stuff. Quite frankly with your application you will not see one mile per hour change. Just use a name brand. Yes royal purple is one of the better ones and amsoil too.

[v4rick]

Big Grizzly,
I appreciate your style of dealing with what can become a polarizing issue, when not approached with caution and knowledge.
Your comments on oil and chemicals in general mirror my own. Better to replace burned out sludge with Wal Mart Econo-Oil than to let it run another season to justify the cost of Super Slick Synthetic Silk on the next change. That said, I do have questions, being newly inducted into the "Boaters World" (sorry they are no more).
If you could direct me to a good source of parts (and maybe service advice) specifically for a '89 Regazza 4.3, I would appreciate it. I have just begun scanning this Donzi site, but as with many "Manufacturer-Specific" sites, the amount of information can be daunting. Try looking for information on a Yamaha RD400. You'll see what I mean.
Thanks for your help.

[BigGrizzly]

V4Rick, MikeV, has one and he KNOWS how and where to get deals. Welcome to the board. BTW I don't use the slick stuff in my boats and only Amsoil in my race bike.

[CHACHI]

V4Rick, just curious, with the mention of an RD400 and V4 in your board name, you wouldn't have an RZ500 would you?

Ken

[CHACHI]

........or maybe an RD500 or an RZ500N?


Ken

[Planetwarmer]

I have never used Royal P, but FYI: there is a motorcycle shop that is just around the corner from my house. They dino-tune race bikes. They told me that every engine that failed on their dino, was using Royal Purple.

Like I said, I have never used the stuff, and that is just what this particular shop told me.

You can go to offshoreonly.com to the forum section and type in oil in the search tab. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Most of the recommendations are Mobil 1 full syn V-Twin 10w 40

[CHACHI]

Planetwarmer, Mobil's V-Twin stuff is a 20w50.
Their MX-4T is a 10w40.

Ken

[BigGrizzly]

Actually in our oil test Mobile was at the bottom of the of the synthetics. There is a long involved story I won't go into. Every engine that we ran on our dyno that failed had the Honda oil. Of course every engine we run has honda oil in it:popcorn: Now in real racing there has never been a engine failure due to oil, there has always been other contributing factors causing it. I have been doing this a long time and seen more broken engines then most people have seen engines.

[MOP]

Then there is the argument "Dino "vs" Syn" most all will agree we do not put near enough hours on syn to warrant or to take advantage its long term usage, basicly a waste of $$ for most. A quality Dino will do the job for 95% of us, that being said I use syn Spectro Gold 20/50 which I believe beats all other syn oils but that is another debate! I am now doing something different then most, no oil change last fall I changed out my filter this spring and took an oil sample and sent it off. The sample results came back better then I could ask for. I intend to run the oil until a sample shows of any break down of the oils properties. So Mr. Chachi you have an independat test bed!!!

I would also like to note I switched from a well known (No debate) high quality dino racing oil to Mr Ken's Spectro. I am run closed cooling so do not see temp drops like raw cooled engines experiance, my oil consumpton (normal for stroker motors) has near dropped considerably. I was using 1-1/2 qt. a season depending on hours run, last year I used just under a qt. I would say half of what it was.

[BigGrizzly]

No debate intended but most of the synthetics are very close in our testing, and I will leave it that.

[MOP]

One added note those running flat tappet cams will benefit from running motor cycle oil, automotive oils do not have the zinc content. The zinc greatly reduces wear on flat tappet cam lifters and lobes, you can also use zinc additives to protect your investment this goes for any engine. The oil I mentioned in my last post is the motor cycle blend with zinc, I do have a full roller engine with quite a few $$ in it. I am very conscious of various oils and there properties no where near the level of Randy, but have really dug into everything I could read.

[BigGrizzly]

Sorry MOP, but the zinc thing is only in 2 stroke oils. Motorcycle oils are the same blends as good auto oils. MC engines are really only higher output auto engines. Remember I workede for one of the larges manufacturers of them and we make cars, marine engines and planes.

[v4rick]

Sorry I got us off-message, but to answer Chachi - no RZ's, but a V4 Interceptor, forementioned '77 RD400 and an '05 FZ6, all being ignored while I work on the Donzi.

[CHACHI]

Sorry MOP, but the zinc thing is only in 2 stroke oils. Motorcycle oils are the same blends as good auto oils. MC engines are really only higher output auto engines. Remember I workede for one of the larges manufacturers of them and we make cars, marine engines and planes.

Grizz, I am sorry to say but zinc is a very important issue in four cycle automotive lubricants right now. The issue being that the zinc/phosphorus additive package is the best defense the engine has for a reserve boundry lubricant (when the fluid flim is not longer there) against wear. It is also helps prevent the oil from oxidizing which helps for keeping the oil in grade and offering longer drain intervals. As zinc is doing it's job, the engine is consuming the zinc additive and hopefully we change it before the negitive effects of little/no zinc start raising havoc with our motors.

Back in the API SF,SG,SH days the oil manufactures treated the oil with .10-.12% (1,000-1,200 PPM parts per million) of zinc. The auto oils of those days were the best you could purchase.

As the government started leaning on the auto manufactures for emissions, the auto manufactures were warrantying the catalytic converters (I am guessing here 50,000 miles). Short version, zinc was beleived to poison the cats if you consumed oil. This coupled with recommended oil viscosities that are thinner than the SG days, accelerated the oil consumption issue due to thinner base stock volitizing and going away increasing the impact on the emission control system(cat).
The solution was to lower the amount on zinc in automotive oils and intoduce API SJ. This was the first oil to have a maximum anti-wear limit and I beleive it was 1200 PPM. Current API SL formulations are 1000 PPM or below.

These low levels of zinc have raised hell with hi performance engine builders using flat tappet cams. It has brought to market companies selling zinc supplements to add to current API SL oils. Go to any classic car/ muscle car board and you will find a thread on this problem.

This zinc issue is only going to get worse as they are looking to drop the PPM below 600. This is making oil additive companies introduce new anti wear additives, ie moly.

Yes, it is no secret to some people on this boad that I work for an very small compounder blender in the motorcycle industry.

We have always belived in zinc and still over treat our lubricants with zinc.

Our current formulations have upwards of 1800 PPM and we will continue to add zinc because we also beleive in producing the best possible product for the engine and engine wear is just one of the many issue an oil blender deals with.

Ken

[Planetwarmer]

Doesnt the added zinc in mc oils help reduce it breaking down due to the shearing of the oil in the gear boxes and wet clutches?

Yes, it does. :yes:

Thanks. :cool:

Your welcome.:cool!:

[HOWARD O]

I ran Golden Spectro in both my CR500 and my Yamaha Banshee (RD350 Engine) for many years in the desert. Most of my buddies ran this oil as well. For no other reason, it happened to have the best price and we liked the shape of the bottle! :cool: It served us very well.

I even run Spectro Oil in my Donzi now too. Reason for that is that Spectro Oils have the very best and most knowledgeable folks working for them! :yes:

But seriously, I know a lot of people that buy the cheapest oil possible at Walmart. They change it frequently and have no more problems than anyone else. I'm sure that extreme duty performance engines are more particular but for the rest of us folks, I have seen no evidence that it matters too much as long as you are using the correct weight/viscosity and change it out with some frequency.

[BUIZILLA]

if you value your wallet, zinc is your best friend...

[CHACHI]

Doesnt the added zinc in mc oils help reduce it breaking down due to the shearing of the oil in the gear boxes and wet clutches?

Yes, it does. :yes:

Thanks. :cool:

Your welcome.:cool!:
PW, oil shear is a function of the type of polymer the blender used in producing the oil.

Zinc will help in preventing oxidation (thicking) of the oil. Zinc is a multi-functional additive, shearing of the oil is not on of it's functions.

Ken

[BigGrizzly]

The thing that MOP I am sure he was refering is to is the old Motorcycle added zinc sales pitch. As most on this board know I worked Foe Honda the manufacture, not the dealer and did their oil test for several years with real engines and real time not just the lab tests. One thing I learned from visiting the oil companies is I can make any oil fail before it time. The reason We got into the testing is to keep the people at Honda honest and payola out of it. One time it was an issue with a vendor and accessory buyer. Neither are associated with Honda in any way shape or form any longer. This is on thing that Honda has O tolerance for!!! I am happy to say our tests got this person caught and fired... Remember too that gasoline is not the same as it was in the 1970s either. Again IN OUR application any good name brand oil is a good choice, and nothing is better then changing the oil and filter often, not even the best synthetics, or blends. Today the worst oils are as good or better as the oils of the 1960->1970s. I just get tired of hearing the "My engine failed because I used ***** oil". And the Dyno statement about blow ups just got to me. In 40 years I have never seen a Dyno failure that was caused by oil break down or lack of lubricity, it was always caused by other factors.

[CHACHI]

The thing that MOP I am sure he was refering is to is the old Motorcycle added zinc sales pitch. As most on this board know I worked Foe Honda the manufacture, not the dealer and did their oil test for several years with real engines and real time not just the lab tests.
Grizz back in the API SG days the zinc levels between automotive products and motorcycle specfic products were much closer than they are today.

The big difference back then was the type of polymer used by the auto industry in their mulit-viscosity oils. They used a styrene based polymer.

These polymers were not very shear stable in a motorcycle application as cars did not run the same oil in the engine, tranny, and clutch. The transmission sheared the polymer and the oil fell out of grade very fast.

Better polymers for the motorcycle industry were Olefin Co-Polymers and Methacrylate Polymers. Methacrylate polymers were used in ATF applications and we all know how often we changed ATF.

All that being said, most motorcycle specfic oils used OCP'S and the better ones used the latter.

Honda even had on their can "with OCP" to distinguish it from automotive product.

Ken

[MOP]

Daaamn! I love when you guys talk like that! Oil is one of those slippery subjects that seems to come and go with the wind!

[Planetwarmer]

I am one of those people who changes the oil and filter frequently. I figure that fresh and clean oil is better than dirty old full synthetic any day.

Clearly, the voices in my head haven't a clue about oil or any of its properties and what they do.

I run the merc semi synthetic because that is what the previous owner ran, and I dont want to have some residual left in the system thus mixing several different grades. I also have read somewhere that "marine oil" has some sort of an additive that helps in a watery or salty or salt watery environment. That may be incorrect too.

[BigGrizzly]

Planet, That is the best and most reasonable answer to have. Oil is cheap relatively speaking. Heck oil isn't magic. The real main difference in the Honda oil, auto vs MC is is weigh and much has to do with EPA. They do have different labels and change from time to time. Both MC and Auto are subject to the same tolerance in building. That being said I have never used motorcycle specific in my race or street bikes. I have never had an oil related failure in 40 plus years.

[osur866]

My .02, what I use in my 6.2 is the merc syth. blend and change oil and filter every 25 hrs. thats what it calls for and says to change every 50 hrs. probably a bit over kill but if your not driving a bayliner your driving a Donzi and if your like most here you run it a little harder than the family bowrider :hyper: Steve

[MOP]

Well I told Ken he has a test bed!

I put 43 hours on the Spectro last year it is crystalline as was the oil sample, I have a fair buck in my engine I will only run what I feel is the best. Like I said I will change it as soon as the sample indicates any impurities or if I see any discoloration, I feel Spectro is better than Amsoil due to the zinc content. I know a "little" about Amsoil, I have a buddy that put a little over 300,000 miles on his diesel. During that 300,000 he has records showing he only used 3 cases of Amsoil, five very extended changes and a top off with filter changes as per the factory oil sampling of his oil. That is where I got the idea of trying the same with the Spectro, I ran the 43 hours changed the filter and topped off time will tell. Maybe I will chicken out at 75 hours who knows!!!!!

Phil

[CHACHI]

Is the lab testing for presence of the lubrication additive package also, or just for metal/silica content?
Poodle, most oil analysis reports include additive content and wear metal content. If you happen to do repeat testing on a particular piece of equipment, the report could also list past test results for monintoring purposes. The report would also "flag" an area where the lab has concern.

Here is a typical lab report, unfortunatley this was on new oil so the metals side is non exsistant. The report also will show fuel dilution and coolant content, and viscosity of the oil.

If anyone is thinking of getting an oil analysis done, they should keep a small amount (8oz) of the new oil they are going to use in the engine.
This way when they send the used oil out for testing, they also send the retained sample to be tested also. The retained sample test results provides you with a baseline of the oil (new) to compare the used oil to.

Ken

[CHACHI]

I am one of those people who changes the oil and filter frequently. I figure that fresh and clean oil is better than dirty old full synthetic any day.

Clearly, the voices in my head haven't a clue about oil or any of its properties and what they do.

I run the merc semi synthetic because that is what the previous owner ran, and I dont want to have some residual left in the system thus mixing several different grades. I also have read somewhere that "marine oil" has some sort of an additive that helps in a watery or salty or salt watery environment. That may be incorrect too.

PW, you are correct, new clean oil beats dirty oil of any kind.

Don't worry about mixing oils. No damage will happen if you mix any commercialy available engine oil, be it petroleum, synthetic or a blend of both. You can also mix gades of different oils with no negitive results.

If you would rather run something other than the Mercury stuff, go ahead and enjoy.

You are correct in the "additive" on marine rated oils.

The additive surrounds the water molecule and "absorbs" it into the oil.

This water molecule will stay in the oil and be removed when you change the oil. It will not flash off once you get the oil hot. I don't know what percentage of water it can carry but I beleive it may be upwards of 2-3%.

Mercury also says the gear lube will do the same thing.

Ken

[BUIZILLA]

interesting report..... I assume that is fresh, unused oil as a sample? the V100 @ 15.12 is the highest I have EVER seen on a 10-40 sample.... the V40 @ 100 number that high I have NEVER seen... until today.... pretty impressive stuff

I have been slammed this week with fuel and oil samples myself, every day has been an adventure... I was on a jobsite at 0630 yesterday with a fuel/oil dilution issue... rising 4% an hour :nilly:

not spilling the details but there is a tanker full of jet A running around the Carib basin that is contaminated... there are 4 or 5 islands without jet A this morning, so if your on St Maarten, your there for a few more days :eek: :eek: and if your on St Kitts, Cuba, Suriname or Trinidad, don't fly..

[CHACHI]

Buiz, that is correct, new oil right out of the bottle.

Ken

[Planetwarmer]

I have found that Equate works as well as KY. I have never tried the high mileage stuff, just the 1 time usage. I figure that clean "brand X" lubrication is better than dirty (or worse, contaminated) name brand stuff!:yes:

[BigGrizzly]

In real oil test of over 59 different brands and grades 10-40 always showed the worst wear of any other in the same manufacturer. We have been deoing these tests for almost 20 years every other year.

[Planetwarmer]

In real oil test of over 59 different brands and grades 10-40 always showed the worst wear of any other in the same manufacturer. We have been deoing these tests for almost 20 years every other year.
So what grade showed the least wear? Why does everyone use 10w 40 then?

[MOP]

Randy I am glad you brought up the 10/40 thing, I have "heard" the GM was giving people a real hard time with warrantee issues when 10/40 was found in the engines. Not sure how valid the stories were but there were several accounts!

Phil

[v4rick]

Ditto the question regarding oil grades and weights. My OMC manual states "30 weight only", but the dip-stick ('89 4.3) states "10W/30".
Sorry to get off-message (again), but being new to the board, I do have questions and observations. First, having been active on several motorcycle boards for many years, I have to compliment the users of this one. The "which oil is best" subject comes up regularly and by the third page is usually peppered with four-letter words and other expletives. Second, the tag about kicking an armadillo at 40 doesn't sound like a boating issue, unless there is an extreme boating maneuver I am not aware of. Sorry, just had to ask.

[v4rick]

Sorry again, that's "Possum" not "Armadillo".

[Planetwarmer]

Sorry again, that's "Possum" not "Armadillo".

That was advice from a rough old biker that I knew. Seeing as I race motorcycles, I thought it seemed like excellent advice. The biker died a few years ago, so I thought it was appropriate to share some of his final "words of wisdom".

[BigGrizzly]

Well as for the 10-40 thing. In 1984 GM released a bulletin that it would void warranty if 10 40 was used, so we wanted to know why. It is as blatant as can be. Just to be specific A Shell 10-40 is not as good as their own 10 30 and a Castrol 10-40 is not as good as their own 10-30, etc as a disclaimer. We did not find onw 10-40 that was as good as any 10-30. After the test I got rid oa all the 10 40 that had been sponsored to me. never used much anyway. As what grade is the best depends on the application and manufacture suggestions. Example My Criterion uses 20-50 The Corsican used mostly 30w, now it is on 20-50. Now I would not use 30 in an Acura because of the oil pump and clearances on cold start up. However On my old HD Kr750 I would not use 10-30 either for the opposite reason. I think the HP500 say 40, but we put in 20-50 when the leave here. I have strong oil opinions that I keep off the board, because I don't need a 400 page opinion discussion. I just stat what i know to be true and you can make your own judgment, especially in the oil department and application thing, since it is not a major issue.

[Planetwarmer]

I remember a few years ago, Hot Rod TV ran a bone stock mid 90s Z-28 on a dyno. They stopped the engine, changed the engine oil, tranny fluid, and dif fluid with Royal Purple. They ran the car on the dyno again, and it showed a gain of 15 rear wheel horsepower. That always impressed me, but you never know what the TV shows do behind the scenes.

I have never used the stuff, but they are the most contraversial oil I have ever heard about. Maybe it because they are a smaller company that claims to outperform the "big boys".:anchor:

[BigGrizzly]

Planet, I remember that. They had a new chasis dyno in the other shop, so we did a comparison on a HP unit and found the test lied, at least we could not even come close. Actually there was a horse power or 2 only and that isn't even significant. It could have been an air temp change.

[DC18]

Ruht row....

Good info. I have an email address of a person at royal purple. I am going to send this to them. :shocking: I will be asking for scientific data and documentation of their claims. We will see. :confused: Any info they send me I will post here. BTY, I said that I was thinking about using their product. :eek:
If they can't supply us with the info.... they can go scratch.