Immigration Yeah or Nay

[MOP]

I have gotten a few comments from good folks that I know just do not understand the plight of many areas of our nation. Many areas are in dire straights, many of our American working trades people have been pushed out of the work place, it is simple math why pay $25 for say a good carpenter when you can pay $10-12 for an also fairly decent foreign carpenter. The list goes on and on! Do some of you have a clue how many hospitals have been forced to either do away with emergency room or worse yet have had to close? Just recently I read of one closing in a town that people now had to drive 75 miles for treatment, 75 miles can surely be life or death! In many areas including mine there has been an up surge of M13 an extremely bad Latin gang, they control drugs and cause most of the violent crime. I was speking with a fellow member this morning and related to this, he said he did not see it in his area. I feel that is true of many areas, so I do not blame those that do not understand that something must be done. Several of you know that in no way am I down on people from south of our border, my daughter in law is from Costa Rica. Michael Bonnie's son employs 12-15 "LEGAL" aliens, the work hard and pay their fair share into our system. To be very honest even the illegal for the most part are really decent people, but they do not contribute and are draing our country! I am and alway will be for immigration but only as it was set forth by our fore fathers had to say, Google Teddy Rosevelt+Imigration for one. I put a post up a week or so ago and was a bit surprised by the reaction, true the facts were not great but diregarding that there was far mor truth then fiction. It is high time we all took a good lokk at what is happening and do something about it! Below is a picture I scanned from a local news paper, mind you this type of photo is assimulated in just about every town on Long Island and many more places here in the US. If you do really care about your country think real hard about this problem! We must rid ourselves of the illegals they are cost us billions each and every year while merrily sending billions home!

P.S. In 2006 we lost 200 hospitals in the US will yours be next? This and some home work on your own will give you an idea of the severity! http://www.google.com/search?q=in+the+last+ten+years+how+many+hospitals+ have+closed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Phil

[Lenny]

Phil, before you get rid of everyone you have to finish teaching the Aliens to the south.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/20/elpaso.juarez.school/index.html

[MOP]

I have seen something on that before, those kids are doing what they do legally it is not relevant. 400+ kids doing things the right way has no bearing, on what the vast majority of illegals are doing. I am all for them being here but they must get into the system and pay their share like all others, they free ride which sucks. US citizens cannot get the same benefits they do as illegals, 100% fee no matter the cost health care, there are millions of the elderly that can't get that. Working class that can't afford insurance can't get it either but they damn well pay their taxes, all the illegals do is keep sucking what ever they can get away from the Americans that have worked and paid for all their lives. Our powers that be want to give them Social Security benefits, I even say Ok to that but on a scale that they can prove they paid in at! I won't give in on this, I am near 70 and have worked since I was 12 on school break and full time since I turned 17 I damn well paid my share ito hte system. It totally amazes me that many can not see how this is and will affect them and their children.

[zelatore]

MOP, while I largely agree with your position regarding illegals, I think the support for them comes down to a couple basic points.

One side is that we should offer basic support to all people as a human rights issue. That's great and noble, but we can't really afford it.

Another side, more pragmatic, says maybe it's just cheaper/easier in the long run to pay for them now that they're here instead of trying to round them up and get rid of them. I can almost accept that policy, assuming it truly would be the lower cost option. But the thought that they cheated the system and won really burns me.

Just trying to offer counterpoints.

[Cuda]

We need to quit trying to prove the the world we are a great and noble country for two reasons:
Number one, we can't afford it.
Number two, they don't give a chit if we are or not, they will still hate the US.


Those two are facts, and they are indisputable (by the majority of both).

[Cuda]

Another side, more pragmatic, says maybe it's just cheaper/easier in the long run to pay for them now that they're here instead of trying to round them up and get rid of them. I can almost accept that policy, assuming it truly would be the lower cost option. But the thought that they cheated the system and won really burns me.
Just trying to offer counterpoints.

I bit my tongue on the cheapest option of curing illegals.

You know what you can buy 22 caliber bullets for?
I imagine that's the cheapest route, with no possiblitly of repeat offenders.

[Just Say N20]

We have apparently reached the point where the meaning of words is now relative. 50 years ago we had standards, or absolutes. 2 + 2 = 4. Now, the answer doesn't matter, as long as you tried hard, whatever you came up with is OK. We don't want to bruise anyone's fragile self image.

Murder used to be wrong. Now I find people that will argue that if someone had an abusive childhood, or ____________ (fill in any "noble" sounding reason for a behavioral problem), it really isn't their fault, so they shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of their choices.

Illegal, used to mean just that. Outside the law, and there used to be penalties for participating in such behavior. Now the phrase "Illegal aliens" is tossed around like it means alternative citizens. The very fact that they are here illegally should be the end of any discussion about what should happen to them next. There is no gray area here.

And I don't know where this absolute nonsense came from that allows them to illegally break into our country 8.99 months pregnant, pop out a kid, and that child is magically a citizen of the US. This kind of thinking is going to lead to the destruction of our country.

[Ghost]

First, BTW, I realize you were playing Devil's advocate to a large degree--it was just easier for me to address the points in question largely by using your posts to identify the issues. (Rather than typing the Devil's arguments first and then my rebuttals.)


One side is that we should offer basic support to all people as a human rights issue. That's great and noble, but we can't really afford it.

I agree that we can't afford it, but I don't think it's great and noble at all, in fact quite the reverse. That might sound shallow to many at first blush, but let me say why.

If one looks at the sentence again. Who are the 'we' in 'we should offer...'?

It isn't offering at all. When a group forcibly takes the assets of others and gives them away against the will of their rightful owners, that is not an offering at all. Nothing is stopping all of those who actually DO desire to offer something to others from doing so, up to and including all of their own worldly possessions. Knock yourselves out. Do all the charitable work and donating you want to do. THAT is noble, in spirit at least. Taking it from your unwilling neighbor and giving it away is anything but. When you are doing it with your own wealth, that you earned, voluntarily, YOU can manage how it is done so as to have useful effect, and can cease it if you conclude it is failing. Or because you can't afford it anymore. Or just because you want to quit.

Further, if you look at the real consequences of entitlement programs, I think you'll see that over the long haul, those consequences are anything but merciful and kind to the recipient population. When the individual donors are voluntary, and can thus manage what is given and to whom, and under what circumstances, FAR more good comes of it.


...more pragmatic, says maybe it's just cheaper/easier in the long run to pay for them now that they're here instead of trying to round them up and get rid of them. I can almost accept that policy, assuming it truly would be the lower cost option. But the thought that they cheated the system and won really burns me.

I think you are right to feel cheated, but I think the wholly unprincipled argument about what is easier/cheaper in the long run is not really pragmatic at all. I'll skip my usual explanation of why and go straight for the throat for a change:

Give it another look as unemployment hits 12, 15, 20, 25 percent or more, and it will be more and more clear that we both can and must get rid of the illegals. Better yet, think ahead and the answer will be clear in time to alleviate some American suffering and start healing our economy.

Regards

Mike

[Cuda]

Who knew the Who would be prophetic in 1970.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hj6-voLwB8

[Lenny]

Phil, you've got an obligation ...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/20/elpaso.juarez.school/index.html

..for Illegals to take your jobs...

[MOP]

Phil, you've got an obligation ...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/20/elpaso.juarez.school/index.html

..for Illegals to take your jobs...

Lenny you are up to late and have already posted that link! Think for a moment read it fully yourself! It is truly irrelevant and perfectly legal!

As to obligation it surely is not my obligation alone, it falls on the shoulders every decent hard hard working individual that is and has paid their dues into our system. It, no matter what your stance a complex issue, the majority of these people are looking for nothing more then to better their lot as did our fore fathers. But the cost to society and our nation to many is far to high.

[MOP]

What finer minds then this dusty old one has to say! There are many links that should be explored!

http://www.cis.org/NewCase