Bad Flappers?

[Marlin275]

Hey Guys,
This is getting to be a big problem for me!
My first engine had exhaust riser problems and got water in the engine.
Now 3 years later my second engine got hydro lock
broke a valve and piston.
Need a new block.
3rd new engine in 7 years!

My engine guy says it's water getting in the flappers.
I'm thinking this might happen when the trailer goes in and out
when the engine is off and waves hit the ramp
and the boat from behind?
I use the Salisbury Rubber Flappers and I think this is the problem.
Anyone have this problem and find a good solution?

I just read this and makes me think its a commom issue?
"These are excellent American-made flaps that will not curl like cheap import copies.
These are a must for boats with a very close distance between exhaust ports and the water line."

http://www.cpperformance.com/products/Exhaust/flappers.htm

[gcarter]

Is your X outdrive, or V-drive?
What type of exhaust do you run?
If center riser, do you have room for taller risers?

[Marlin275]

George.
It's a Volvo 270 outdrive.

It has a 350Q Chris Craft style setup, a little unusual for an X-18
where the engine is turned around and the power is
taken off what was the front of the engine.

This was used to keep the engine low in the boat and not cut the hatch.
It uses Barr Marine manifolds and risers.

I can't fit taller risers without cutting the hatch
and that looks like hell on a classic X.

My engine specialist thinks just better flappers?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23299&d=1156088571

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14284&d=1125333024

[gcarter]

You could also try some tips with SST two piece flappers inside, or some mufflers, all in addition to your rubber external flappers.

[Marlin275]

You could also try some tips with SST two piece flappers inside, or some mufflers, all in addition to your rubber external flappers.

George,

This sounds like a real solution
3 flappers on each side instead of one.
Do you have a link to the SST two piece flappers.
I haven't seen them in 3 searches.

Thanks
Chad

[gcarter]

Chad, maybe I didn't describe the internal flappers correctly, the SST internal flapper is in two counterbalanced pieces and is hinged in the middle.
Here's some;
http://www.danamarineproducts.com/DisplayCatImage.cfm?CFID=62806&CFTOKEN=22622550&CFID=62806&CFTOKEN=22622550

http://www.danamarineproducts.com/partImages/EX-0015-1.jpg (javascript:close();) EX-0015
Exhaust Tip - Long Straight Cut (ea)
Long straight cut exhaust tips are constructed of highly polished 304 stainless steel. Includes a newly designed heavy duty stainless steel quiet operation internal flapper. Outside length is 6.5", 5" inside length. Accepts 4" hose. Sold individually.
$105.00
http://www.danamarineproducts.com/partImages/EX-0015-2.jpg (javascript:close();)

Copyright © 2009
Dana Marine Products

Prices subject to change without notice.

[gcarter]

But since it's square cut, you can mount the rubber flappers on the ends.
I had some like this, only slash cut, on the Minx and never had any issues.

[BUIZILLA]

help me fill in the blanks....

your running in salt water... do you flush the engine after you return? if so, then how did salt water get in there to fill those jugs to the top and then it sits until discovered?

the angle of your risers is more than a lot of us have, and a LOT of us don't have flappers at all (I do), with no issues like you have...

help me out here

[Marlin275]

help me fill in the blanks....

your running in salt water... do you flush the engine after you return? if so, then how did salt water get in there to fill those jugs to the top and then it sits until discovered?

the angle of your risers is more than a lot of us have, and a LOT of us don't have flappers at all (I do), with no issues like you have...

help me out here

I flush the engine every time she hits the river.
I'm thinking the boat is most vulnerable when she is on the
launch ramp with her stern taking direct waves from
every passing cruiser?
One time during the start of a storm, waves were breaking on the transom
and that finished off my first engine along with the rusty risers.

Other than that, I don't have a clue how that water is getting in.

My engine guy says that's river silt (mud) that is retained when the water burns off.

[Air 22]

Hmmmm...Looks like maybe headgasket(s) may have gone(going) bad to allow that much corrosion in the jug area?:eek: Buiz? Something waaaaaay beyond bad flapers from the pic's?:nilly: How was the oil in the block? milky?(salty) ..lol:boggled:

[Marlin275]

I did have some white custard type material in the oil
from time to time
but not milky until the engine failure.

[gcarter]

It could be those old (I'm presuming) Barr manifolds and risers. Now, that IS Common.

[Marlin275]

The old Barr manifolds and risers were on the first engine.
I had brand new ones on this second engine
so that should not have been the issue!

[gcarter]

I suppose it would be easy enough to disassemble them and check the gaskets ands mating surfaces.

[gcarter]

Did your mechanic check the intake manifold?

[Marlin275]

Did your mechanic check the intake manifold?

I will check with him
he had the whole engine torn apart
so I assumed he did?

[mrfixxall]

if water is getting into your engine through your exhaust you may want to consider lowering the tips with a pair os s pipes..

http://eddiemarine.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=11626&c=58

[BigGrizzly]

I keep reading this and am having a hard time believing the flappers are the issue, there has to be something else happening like does your boat sit in the water and does it sit stern out. This is happening too often.

[Marlin275]

I keep reading this and am having a hard time believing the flappers are the issue, there has to be something else happening like does your boat sit in the water and does it sit stern out. This is happening too often.

I'm thrown for an answer too!
The boat is keep on a trailer
except for launch ramp stern out exposure
I don't know how it got up the flaps.

[zelatore]

I'm with Griz on this - I would NOT think flappers given the amount of rise you have and the down angle of the exhaust. Better flappers won't hurt anything, but there's got to be something else going on here.

[zelatore]

One thought - although it's a stretch...

Might double check that the correct gaskets and plates are used between the manifolds and risers. You are raw water cooled; they use a different set-up with a block-off plate between the riser and manifold on the fresh water cooled set-ups. I really don't think this is it (you would have other problems if it was) but maybe something else to look at? :confused:

[Air 22]

Do a compression test and a leakdown test...on a cold engine....That should answer some possible questions...:)

[gcarter]

Do a compression test and a leakdown test...on a cold engine....That should answer some possible questions...:)
Dwight, you apparently didn't look at the pictures on page 1.

[CHACHI]

George, are you saying it is going to be tuff to do a compression check?

Ken

[gcarter]

George, are you saying it is going to be tuff to do a compression check?

Ken
Maybe.....

[Air 22]

Why would it be hard to do a compression check??...lol just kidding...I didn't c that pic of the block out..he must of added it later on..I only saw the pic's of the eng in boat...ooppps...

Oh well... hope he finds out the problem..:)

[MOP]

I have looked at the photos a couple of times, in photo #1 it looks like one bank has no bad cylinders is that correct? If so I also doubt a flapper issue and think something else is amiss!

10 Minute Edit! I just downloaded and enlarged and cleaned up that #1 photo unless my eyes are real bad the problem exists on on the stbd side (in your case port side) !!! I have run Salisbury's on a few of my boats they have never let me down!

Phil

[Marlin275]

I have looked at the photos a couple of times, in photo #1 it looks like one bank has no bad cylinders is that correct? If so I also doubt a flapper issue and think something else is amiss!

10 Minute Edit! I just downloaded and enlarged and cleaned up that #1 photo unless my eyes are real bad the problem exists on on the stbd side (in your case port side) !!! I have run Salisbury's on a few of my boats they have never let me down!

Phil

Phil
you are right the problem is only on my port side
and this seems strange as only affecting one side.

I also ran Salisburys for five years no problem
until manifolds and risers.

[VetteLT193]

Could it be reversion?

Just thinking that if you bumped the power up some it could be the issue. Never seen it like those pictures though... Unless it reverts and slowly corrodes over time causing the issue long term?

[Marlin275]

Could it be reversion?
Just thinking that if you bumped the power up some it could be the issue. Never seen it like those pictures though... Unless it reverts and slowly corrodes over time causing the issue long term?

I asked my engine builder that and he said
it was a real mild cruising cam.

[VetteLT193]

I asked my engine builder that and he said
it was a real mild cruising cam.

Probably worth getting the specs of the cam. There are guys who build engines and there are engine builders... They all sound like they know what they are doing but only the real engine builders know what they are doing.

[MOP]

Cam should exhibit the problem on both banks, IMO something else is going on!

[opa]

This may be a little off topic, but what direction do you spin the prop on that 270, with the engine backwards ?

[VetteLT193]

Cam should exhibit the problem on both banks, IMO something else is going on!

I thought it was on both sides. one side doesn't make sense it's bad flappers or cam. gotta be something else all together.

[Marlin275]

This may be a little off topic, but what direction do you spin the prop on that 270, with the engine backwards ?

Left
Volvo Ultra

[MOP]

Did you determine what the likely cause was for water in "one" bank and not the other, I doubt the flapper issues would lean more toward riser to manifold leak, cracked manifold on that side. It is not an intake issue as that would get water into the lifter valley no signs of that, sure would hate to see the new engine get wet inside!

Phil

[Marlin275]

Did you determine what the likely cause was for water in "one" bank and not the other, I doubt the flapper issues would lean more toward riser to manifold leak, cracked manifold on that side. It is not an intake issue as that would get water into the lifter valley no signs of that, sure would hate to see the new engine get wet inside!

Phil

Phil, thanks for your interest.
My engine builder is convinced that it was water entering the flapper.
He tore the engine down and found no other issues.

I could hear the engine bog down slightly 20 minutes before it failed and there was some kind of water issue, but it was a fairly calm day and it seemed minor.
I didn't think it was flappers.
I had a few times were slight water in the oil had caused a white custard like build up in the top of the dip stick,
but that seemed to go away over time.

[smokediver]

I would check the riser height in relation to the water line ... if you have a different set up than factory your riser height may be too low as george stated in an earlier post ... i think 13 inches is the recommended height ... someone may chime in with the correct height ...

[Marlin275]

I would check the riser height in relation to the water line ... if you have a different set up than factory your riser height may be too low as george stated in an earlier post ... i think 13 inches is the recommended height ... someone may chime in with the correct height ...

I think my set-up is 1973 factory?
My engine builder talked to the Barr riser rep and they are planning on doing a modification to the set-up to reduce any chance of this happening again.
I think I might use the double flapper idea that was presented in an earlier post to help eliminate this problem.

[MOP]

Being a marine mechanic for a very long time the one side thing bugs me, something just don't seem to add up! Do the existing flappers appear to be in like condition?

[Marlin275]

Being a marine mechanic for a very long time the one side thing bugs me, something just don't seem to add up! Do the existing flappers appear to be in like condition?
The mechanic told me the flappers were bad early on and I couldn't believe it.
They are the basic Salisbury flappers and they stay open a few degrees when the engine is off, but everyone says that's normal
and it seemed to be the way I got the boat in 2001 so I didn't think it was the real problem. My boat yard guys thought they looked normal.
I told the mechanic it didn't make sense that only one side of the engine had a problem and he said
it only takes a small amount of water to cause the damage.

I just took this picture of the side that got water.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45960&d=1242403392

[MOP]

Hey do the double flapper and :crossfing: hope that is the cure!

Phil