Why don't we talk EFI?

[gcarter]

So just why isn't there more after market EFI equipped engines?
Let's talk about it!
I remember the very first Bosch equipped multi port injected production car (aside from a few fits and starts using Bendex Eltrojection, which I don't had ANYTHING in common w/EFI as we know it today) was a Volkswagon Squareback in the late '60's.
Essentially the Bosch system used a dozen or so sensors and an O2 feedback sensor to ultimately time the duration of the individual injectors.
I also remember the early 80's being the age of the Gray Market Car and all the folks that got into the Feredalizing "business".
I remember reading about one Lamborghini "importer" that was using two BMW six cylinder injection systems with custom built intake manifolds because the two BMW systems closely followed the demands much larger 12 cylinder Lamborghini.
Of course a lot of folks went to jail for such things and a lot of other folks lost their illegal cars.
So where are we?
We can do what Griz was talking of in HM's thread, or what else?
I've read a lot about "fuzzy logic" systems used to regulate transmissions and suspension systems for individual drivers personal habits.
I'm wondering if, at some point, there would be an "off the shelf" series of after market EFI systems that would be sized for a particular engine size, and performance expectations, and the logic built into the computor be flexable enough to "learn" what's expected of it?
Is this possible?
What do you guys think?

[VetteLT193]

So just why isn't there more after market EFI equipped engines?
Let's talk about it!
I remember the very first Bosch equipped multi port injected production car (aside from a few fits and starts using Bendex Eltrojection, which I don't had ANYTHING in common w/EFI as we know it today) was a Volkswagon Squareback in the late '60's.
Essentially the Bosch system used a dozen or so sensors and an O2 feedback sensor to ultimately time the duration of the individual injectors.
I also remember the early 80's being the age of the Gray Market Car and all the folks that got into the Feredalizing "business".
I remember reading about one Lamborghini "importer" that was using two BMW six cylinder injection systems with custom built intake manifolds because the two BMW systems closely followed the demands much larger 12 cylinder Lamborghini.
Of course a lot of folks went to jail for such things and a lot of other folks lost their illegal cars.
So where are we?
We can do what Griz was talking of in HM's thread, or what else?
I've read a lot about "fuzzy logic" systems used to regulate transmissions and suspension systems for individual drivers personal habits.
I'm wondering if, at some point, there would be an "off the shelf" series of after market EFI systems that would be sized for a particular engine size, and performance expectations, and the logic built into the computor be flexable enough to "learn" what's expected of it?
Is this possible?
What do you guys think?

Possible, yes. Cost effective, no... unless you have a programmer that is really into it and someone else that can financially back the programmer with engine(s) and a whole lot of other parts.

Let me know if anyone has some dough, I'll do the programming.:yes:

[BUIZILLA]

I'm wondering if, at some point, there would be an "off the shelf" series of after market EFI systems that would be sized for a particular engine size, and performance expectations, and the logic built into the computor be flexable enough to "learn" what's expected of it?
Is this possible? Cutler tried this years ago... Force Fuel did too.. Holley Commander had decent marketing.. the general boater prefers OEM setups due to high mass dealer network.... I made a few of my own... I truly enjoy the hands on programming aspect..

[rustnrot]

Thinking out loud here, so let me ramble. First off, it's been years since I heard the term "fuzzy logic". Hasn't that now morphed into "artificial intelligence"? No matter, just curious, although I tend to think of AI as higher on the food chain than fuzzy logic.

Regardless of what you call it, any system "that learns its way" has to have the requisite feedback to allow that to happen. Feedback happens through various sensors, and for a marine engine, the necessary O2 sensors are just now a happenin' thing what with catalytic converters starting to come to pass. Also, I guess we gotta decide what parameters we want to optimize. Certainly, alot of cars optimize driveability (whatever that means) but I expect it to be a combination of economy and performance enhancements through feedback from the O2 sensors, throttle position sensor, and others.

In a marine engine, while driveability is certainly a Good Thing, most of us are more interested in maximum power. Usually, tuning for max power is done in a dynometer environment so you have accurate measurements of the work done (ft. lbs, rpm) as well as feedback from sensors that are virtually never encountered in the field (EGT).

I guess to decide how "fuzzy" I want my engine I need to decide how much I am willing to spend on extraneous sensors on my engine. For my money, I'd rather spend the time on the dyno rather than have a more complicated "self tuning" engine in my boat (or car for that matter).

That said, in the Car World it is possible to get ahold of alot of the engine computer programs courtesy of hackers, etc. to try and optimize or defeat certain features. I find it frustrating that there appears to be no such effort by geeks to decode some of the marine computers, although I really haven't spent alot of time looking.

[HallJ]

George,

There are a few systems that tune themselves. Electromotive is one of them.
You need a wide-band sensor to do this. Pretty cheap these days.

There is software out there to tune the Marine systems.

I can understand the carb thing though. I want to drive my boat not work on it!

That being said, I installed an early 90's GM speed density system on my Donzi. I was able to do it on the cheap. I have about $600 in the swap.
It was programed on the dyno and runs great! The engine lights right up every time. The idle speed is correct no mater the engine temp. It goes into closed loop at 140 deg, the a/f snaps to 14.6 and stays there until you get to about 75% throttle and then it goes right to 12.8. I think it works great and would do it again. you can use any GM compatible scanner to look at live engine data and scan codes. It hasn't given me any trouble yet. If it does, parts are cheap and plentiful. Knock control is nice too.
I use a 1 wire O2 which seems to do the job. I have also noticed reduced fuel consumption as well.

The Magnum is getting new engines this spring, the carbs are staying for now. They work well. The biggest problem seems to be a trade off between good a/f at idle and part throttle then getting way too rich at higher loads,
or too rich at part throttle and good at higher loads. I'm sure some carbs are better than others with this. It just shows some limitations of carburetors when it comes to driveability over the complete operating range.
I will probably switch the to EFI at some point as long as I can keep it original looking.

Time for some F1 Knockout Qualifying!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff

[handfulz28]

The most basic of goals is maximum efficiency. Max eff is represented for maximum power per unit of fuel. Further, max eff per unit of fuel for a given capacity air pump and it's particular flow characteristics.

A little more specifically, we want flat torque curves so HP increases as a function of RPM. EFI, through its ability to control fuel flow at precise intervals using a few sensors, allows each point of the operating range to produce maximum power using minimal fuel.

Air flow, throttle position and air/fuel ratio are basic components of the "feedback" loop. Intake temp, intake pressure, coolant temps help to further perfect the feedback and therefore the precision of the control. Ignition control further contributes to maximizing the efficiency of power output. So yes, there are sensors required to monitor these parameters so adjustments can be made.

There's plenty of intellectual property out there to provide a base line set of parameters for a given engine capacity. An engine will run, and it won't grenade itself. Connect the feedback loop (sensors) to a computer to analyze and adjust.

The devil is in the details but there's plenty of similarities between carbs and EFI. Carbs have jets, EFI has injectors. Carbs have "barrels", throats and butterfly diameters; EFI has throttlebodies and blades.

I personally don't believe that EFI is "better" than a carb in the power producing sense. What EFI offers over a carb is "area under the curve", which I think is mostly what "driveability" is all about. I think the idea that carb'd motor "idles perfectly around the dock" is a perfect phrase for the shortcomings of carbs. It idles fine (efficiently?) and it makes the most power at one specific RPM. What about all the in-between?

[Donziweasel]

Isn'r Fuzzy logic the same as Baxter Logic?:rlol::bonk:

[handfulz28]

Holley 4150 fitment, full EFI

http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/powerjection-iii/powerjection-iii-system.html

[BigGrizzly]

It only takes cubic $$$$$. There is a ton of stuff out there and the Feds will not allow a computer lock by companies anymore, the information has to be public and NO monopoly on fixes.

[gold-n-rod]

Couple of years ago, I bought a '77 Nova that had an Edlebrock Multi port EFI kit installed in 1977!!!!!!!! The brain hangs under the dash and is about the size of a Kleenex box. The kit alone in '77 was $975, plus installation. That was some expen$ive HP in 1977 dollars.

I believe Accel was marketing marine throttle body EFI thru the 90's.

[VetteLT193]

George,

There are a few systems that tune themselves. Electromotive is one of them.
You need a wide-band sensor to do this. Pretty cheap these days.

There is software out there to tune the Marine systems.

I can understand the carb thing though. I want to drive my boat not work on it!

That being said, I installed an early 90's GM speed density system on my Donzi. I was able to do it on the cheap. I have about $600 in the swap.
It was programed on the dyno and runs great! The engine lights right up every time. The idle speed is correct no mater the engine temp. It goes into closed loop at 140 deg, the a/f snaps to 14.6 and stays there until you get to about 75% throttle and then it goes right to 12.8. I think it works great and would do it again. you can use any GM compatible scanner to look at live engine data and scan codes. It hasn't given me any trouble yet. If it does, parts are cheap and plentiful. Knock control is nice too.
I use a 1 wire O2 which seems to do the job. I have also niticed reduced fuel consumption as well.

The Magnum is getting new engines this spring, the carbs are staying for now. They work well. The biggest problem seems to be a trade off between good a/f at idle and part throttle then getting way too rich at higher loads,
or too rich at part throttle and good at higher loads. I'm sure some carbs are better than others with this. It just shows some limitations of carburetors when it comes to driveability over the complete operating range.
I will probably switch the to EFI at some point as long as I can keep it original looking.

Time for some F1 Knockout Qualifying!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jeff

You gotta post more often... with lots of details:yes:

[gcarter]

I have a question.....
In handfulz post about the 4150 bodied bolt on system (it looks very interesting, by the way) like most systems, requires an O2 sensor. My Gil manifolds have a 2"-3" high collector at the very top of the manifold under the riser joint. I would think there's room for an O2 sensor bung there.
Has anyone here ever modified a manifold like what I'm describing?
I would imagine a hole would have to be cut into the water jacket, a threaded bung reinforcement welded into the inner manifold and a sleeve welded into the water jacket shell to complete the jacket seal.

[Carl C]

I don't think an automotive O2 sensor would live long. I would bet that the new marine ones have some significant changes. How about a closed loop system using exhaust temperature as it's main criteria?

Also a cool thing about factory installed EFI is that it also ties in with the ignition with cool features like knock sensors and selective cyld. timing retarding.

I love factory EFI but I don't see an aftermarket system coming close in the near future. It needs to be engineered as a complete package, not a one size fits all add on. JMO.

[CHACHI]

I have a question.....
In handfulz post about the 4150 bodied bolt on system (it looks very interesting, by the way) like most systems, requires an O2 sensor. My Gil manifolds have a 2"-3" high collector at the very top of the manifold under the riser joint. I would think there's room for an O2 sensor bung there.
Has anyone here ever modified a manifold like what I'm describing?
I would imagine a hole would have to be cut into the water jacket, a threaded bung reinforcement welded into the inner manifold and a sleeve welded into the water jacket shell to complete the jacket seal.
George, a welder up by my cottage did just what you wrote about.
The Poker Runs America boat needed some bungs welded in the double wall tail pipes. He said it was tricky but doable.

Ken

[hot shot]

Check out the article in performance boats mag may 09 ussue page 20tylor crockett he is offering a throttle body up grade he is reporting 30 hp and 30 lbs torque on 500 and 525 efi's .. carl c it sounds like something you need ?

[BigGrizzly]

Mick, if there is a usable 30 Hp upgrade then the carb was set up incorrectly. we have actually did the reverse and got more HP from a carb then the Merc EFI. I though it was strange but the intakes were totally different so this is also an issue. This is like a carb too big or small, which both carb and EFI both suffer from. Everybody must remember it IS the combination that counts the most.

[BUIZILLA]

Check out the article in performance boats mag may 09 ussue page 20tylor crockett he is offering a throttle body up grade he is reporting 30 hp and 30 lbs torque on 500 and 525 efi's .. I'm going to have to stand in the doubter's line on this one...

[Carl C]

Check out the article in performance boats mag may 09 ussue page 20tylor crockett he is offering a throttle body up grade he is reporting 30 hp and 30 lbs torque on 500 and 525 efi's .. carl c it sounds like something you need ?

The money tree is pretty well plucked clean..........

[MOP]

Not to HiJack but who remembers the Scott injectors, the one that looked like 97 bases with spray tubes. I had six on a 352 Ford a long time ago!

[BUIZILLA]

Not to HiJack but who remembers the Scott injectors, the one that looked like 97 bases with spray tubes. I had six on a 392 Ford a long time ago! you sure it wasn't a 292.. :lookaroun:

[handfulz28]

Check out the article in performance boats mag may 09 ussue page 20tylor crockett he is offering a throttle body up grade he is reporting 30 hp and 30 lbs torque on 500 and 525 efi's .. carl c it sounds like something you need ?


I'm going to have to stand in the doubter's line on this one...

He basically cut the top of the intake manifold and put the throttlebody up there. Seeing as how those manifolds don't flow that well (relatively speaking for the size/power), having the air come in from the top could very well make a little more power. 30hp on a 500+hp engine is less than 10% so it's not that far fetched IMHO.


Has anyone here ever modified a manifold like what I'm describing?

Didn't do it myself, but I had a set of risers where a bung was added for O2 sensors. Check the riser on the right in the photo. Sure, it can be a pain adding to existing systems, but when exhaust manufacturers actually plan for these in the design phase, it's not difficult to make happen.

Hey Randy, guess I hit a nerve in the other thread? :angel: I never said I know it all, I just hate to see people get stuck thinking there couldn't be anything better or there isn't another way to try to do something. I know you can relate. :wink:

[HallJ]

I have a question.....
In handfulz post about the 4150 bodied bolt on system (it looks very interesting, by the way) like most systems, requires an O2 sensor. My Gil manifolds have a 2"-3" high collector at the very top of the manifold under the riser joint. I would think there's room for an O2 sensor bung there.
Has anyone here ever modified a manifold like what I'm describing?
I would imagine a hole would have to be cut into the water jacket, a threaded bung reinforcement welded into the inner manifold and a sleeve welded into the water jacket shell to complete the jacket seal.


George,

I used a less permanent solution. Also, I have cast Iron manifold and didn't Think it was a good idea to weld on it. It works if you have the extra height available in your engine compartment.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56395

Jeff

[HallJ]

I don't think an automotive O2 sensor would live long. I would bet that the new marine ones have some significant changes. How about a closed loop system using exhaust temperature as it's main criteria?

Also a cool thing about factory installed EFI is that it also ties in with the ignition with cool features like knock sensors and selective cyld. timing retarding.

I love factory EFI but I don't see an aftermarket system coming close in the near future. It needs to be engineered as a complete package, not a one size fits all add on. JMO.


My Uncle has fitted A GM TPI system to his Sea Ray. He's replaced the O2 sensor once in eight years! Worst case, you will replace it every year.

Jeff

[gcarter]

I suppose it would help if you removed it between uses.
But Jeff, that's a really clever installation. Did you port for two?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43782&d=1236036276

[The Hedgehog]

My Uncle has fitted A GM TPI system to his Sea Ray. He's replaced the O2 sensor once in eight years! Worst case, you will replace it every year.

Jeff

I doubt that the cam in the Sea Ray had much overlap/

[HallJ]

Here's another great option- http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/

It uses Delphi's MEFI 4B ECU. Original equipment for many marine applications.

One thing I really like is the availability of the engine data on the CAN bus.
Directly compatible with electronic user configurable dash systems and data logging systems. Originally developed for the aftermarket by UMI racing. Supplying many desert racers and also used in factory GM road race teams.

http://www.umiracing.com/gallery/Images/Catalog.pdf

Time for the F1 race!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff

[The Hedgehog]

Here's another great option- http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/

It uses Delphi's MEFI 4B ECU. Original equipment for many marine applications.

One thing I really like is the availability of the engine data on the CAN bus.
Directly compatible with electronic user configurable dash systems and data logging systems. Originally developed for the aftermarket by UMI racing. Supplying many desert racers and also used in factory GM road race teams.

http://www.umiracing.com/gallery/Images/Catalog.pdf

Time for the F1 race!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff

I have a MEFI 4 on mine. I watched the tuning process on the dyno. It is not for amaturs.

[HallJ]

I doubt that the cam in the Sea Ray had much overlap/


It uses this cam:

Duration at .050 221 230
Gross lift .454 .454
Lobe separation 112

Are you thinking about water getting on the O2 from reversion?

Jeff

[HallJ]

I have a MEFI 4 on mine. I watched the tuning process on the dyno. It is not for amaturs.

Agreed!

[HallJ]

I suppose it would help if you removed it between uses.
But Jeff, that's a really clever installation. Did you port for two?

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43782&d=1236036276


I made one for each side. The O2 for the ECU on one side and the Wide band O2 on the other side. The second port was for measuring back pressure. Of course the ECU will need O2 feedback all of the time. So you will need to leave one in.

Jeff

[PaulO]

Actually,
Very inexpensive and COMPLETELY tunable even to the point of ignition control. I have a 55 Porsche Spyder Replica made by Beck in Brazil. I have just installed a 2276 cc type one VW engine and am totally done fooling with the current crop of weber carbs. So, I installed a Megasquirt ECU, used standard and inexpensive GM sensors, used a wideband O2 sensor (great tuning tool but not necessary). And am in the delightful process of tuning. First start up and drive was already better than anything the carbs did. Also, I threw out the distruibutor and installed Ford EDIS which was so easy and cheap I can't believe it. All told, I have about $1600 in it with all new parts. You can source lots of it used and save. You can even buy the ECU in a kit form and assemble it yourself. Warning - you will learn more about EFI than you ever imagined existed. Think of some of the options available in this fully configuarable ECU - you can select how many injections happen in any one complete engine cycle. You can have seperate banks of injectors that fire simultaneously or staggered. You can fully program cold start, acceleration enrichment (using either the built in map sensor, the TP Sensor or a combination. You can even forego the Map sensor for those cams with lots of overlap and utilize only the TP sensor for what is called Alpha-N tuning. Not to mention you can support low impedance or high impedance injectors, can tune for X-Tau which compensates for fuel puddling in the intake manifold on accel and decel. Man this ting is cool. Check them out on the web.
PaulO

[MOP]

you sure it wasn't a 292.. :lookaroun:

Fixed it! Thanks!

Phil

[The Hedgehog]

It uses this cam:

Duration at .050 221 230
Gross lift .454 .454
Lobe separation 112

Are you thinking about water getting on the O2 from reversion?

Jeff

If you have a big cam and heads you will get mist on the O-2 sensor. That limits its life. So far the best trick seems to be turn on the sensors, let them heat up and then fire up the engine. You still have to keep the idling down to a min.

I am sure that someone will have a solution, but that is what seems to happen in big power efi land so far.

[Air 22]

TCM 1100 QUAD ROTOR EFI
Horsepower: 1100 Quad EFI SC
Displacement: 565 Cubic Inches
Recommended Max W.O.T. RPM Range: 5,700 - 6,000
Block: V-8, Merlin III, 4 Bolt Billet Splayed Mains, 10.200 Deck Ht.
Crankshaft: Bryant Racing Billet
Connecting Rods: Carrillo w/SPS Carr Bolts
Pistons: Custom J.E. Forged Aluminum
Rings/Bearings: Speed Pro/Hastings/M-77 H Series
Cylinder Heads: Airflow Research CNC Flowported Aluminum Heads, Match Ported, Bronze Guides, ARP Pro Series Studs, and Crane Guide Plates.
Valves: Severe Duty SS and Inconel Valves (extreme duty)
Induction System: W200AX Whipple Quad Rotor EFI Supercharger w/Intercooler
Valve Covers: Teague Polished Aluminum w/Breathers
Ignition: Complete MSD 6M2 Marine Ignition with Soft Touch Rev Control
Camshaft/Valvetrain: Custom Crane Hydraulic Roller Cam and Lifters, Manley Pushrods, Isky “Tool Room” Valve Springs, and Crane Roller Rocker Arms.
Exhaust: CMI Big Tubes (Tailpipes Not Included)
Transmission: BAM Super Cyborg Dry Sump
Necessary Rigging Kits: Offshore Oil Cooler, Intercooler Plumbing, TCM Sea Strainer, TCM Offshore Pick-up, TCM Dual Dump and TCM/Aeromotive HP Fuel System.

[The Hedgehog]

TCM 1100 QUAD ROTOR EFI
Horsepower: 1100 Quad EFI SC
Displacement: 565 Cubic Inches
Recommended Max W.O.T. RPM Range: 5,700 - 6,000
Block: V-8, Merlin III, 4 Bolt Billet Splayed Mains, 10.200 Deck Ht.
Crankshaft: Bryant Racing Billet
Connecting Rods: Carrillo w/SPS Carr Bolts
Pistons: Custom J.E. Forged Aluminum
Rings/Bearings: Speed Pro/Hastings/M-77 H Series
Cylinder Heads: Airflow Research CNC Flowported Aluminum Heads, Match Ported, Bronze Guides, ARP Pro Series Studs, and Crane Guide Plates.
Valves: Severe Duty SS and Inconel Valves (extreme duty)
Induction System: W200AX Whipple Quad Rotor EFI Supercharger w/Intercooler
Valve Covers: Teague Polished Aluminum w/Breathers
Ignition: Complete MSD 6M2 Marine Ignition with Soft Touch Rev Control
Camshaft/Valvetrain: Custom Crane Hydraulic Roller Cam and Lifters, Manley Pushrods, Isky “Tool Room” Valve Springs, and Crane Roller Rocker Arms.
Exhaust: CMI Big Tubes (Tailpipes Not Included)
Transmission: BAM Super Cyborg Dry Sump
Necessary Rigging Kits: Offshore Oil Cooler, Intercooler Plumbing, TCM Sea Strainer, TCM Offshore Pick-up, TCM Dual Dump and TCM/Aeromotive HP Fuel System.

OK, if you want to go big! This thing is a work of art. Eddie's 1,200 actually uses a 5 litre whipple now.

This is one of the most powerful pump gas compatible motors available anywhere. Utilizing a 2.3 liter Quadrotor Whipple supercharger, this 600 ci, 1200 hp monster uses a maintenance free hydraulic roller camshaft for over 100 hours of trouble free running. With a simple pulley change and the addition of 100 octane fuel, the power is upped to 1400 hp with over 1300 ft lbs of torque. The computer and fuel pressure regulator will make all necessary changes. Even though it contains some of the best parts the aftermarket has to offer, it is priced far below, has a longer warranty, and has a longer run time between rebuilds than the OEM's version. As with all of our other offerings, the 1200/1400 is loaded with polished billet accessories and may be painted any custom color of choice. It also may be serviced by any qualified Mercruiser mechanic. The 1200/1400 comes standard with a 90 day warranty, but longer warranties are available.

Merlin III block with billet main caps
Lunati Blower Series crankshaft
Oliver billet connecting rods
Jeforged blower pistons
Total Seal gapless rings
Custom dry sump oil system
Custom hydraulic roller camshaft
Manley pushrods
Dart Pro 1 CNC heads
Manley Inconel exhaust and Severe duty intake valves
Jesel shaft mounted rockers
Jesel belt drive
Custom fuel pump and plumbing
Billet thermostatically controlled oil filter
Polished serpentine accessory drive system
MEFI 4 computer with custom program and harness
MSD distributor, ignition box and coil
Custom electronics mounting box
Sending units and complete alarm system
CMI big tube headers
Dyno tested and tuned
Also available in carbureted version
Call For Pricing: 615-216-7449

I have actually driven a boat with some of his 1,000's

[mrfixxall]

Ive had this idea for years,you dont need to put a o2 sensor in the exhaust manifold..on most bbc theirs a port in the intake manifold thats in the center and heated by the exhaust,,if you could get someone to fab up bung and have it welded to the intake manifold then you wouldnt need no fancy exhaust risers and you wouldnt get the mist of water on the 02 from the big camshafts..

[gcarter]

Ive had this idea for years,you dont need to put a o2 sensor in the exhaust manifold..on most bbc theirs a port in the intake manifold thats in the center and heated by the exhaust,,if you could get someone to fab up bung and have it welded to the intake manifold then you wouldnt need no fancy exhaust risers and you wouldnt get the mist of water on the 02 from the big camshafts..
Mike, if that works, there could be a market for it.

[zelatore]

Ive had this idea for years,you dont need to put a o2 sensor in the exhaust manifold..on most bbc theirs a port in the intake manifold thats in the center and heated by the exhaust,,if you could get someone to fab up bung and have it welded to the intake manifold then you wouldnt need no fancy exhaust risers and you wouldnt get the mist of water on the 02 from the big camshafts..

That is an interesting idea. Any idea how the flow is in that port? Obviously it would be good to have a strong flow so you get the fastest response to changes.

I've been wondering why more people didn't try DIY stuff. The only big reason I could come up with was the O2 sensor. Take that off the table either through the intake crossover or the adaptors shown above and why wouldn't you do it?

My brother is converting his old Bosh L-jet Alfa to a DIY mass air and distributorless ignition and if I was still playing with Alfas I'd be doing it too. It sounds like a pretty simple install over-all (it might be the megasquirt, can't remember) and let's face it, there's a much bigger market for marine injection systems than there is for Alfa Romeo stuff!

[HallJ]

Ive had this idea for years,you dont need to put a o2 sensor in the exhaust manifold..on most bbc theirs a port in the intake manifold thats in the center and heated by the exhaust,,if you could get someone to fab up bung and have it welded to the intake manifold then you wouldnt need no fancy exhaust risers and you wouldnt get the mist of water on the 02 from the big camshafts..

I wonder if it would be necessary to get more averaging than just one or two cylinders from the crossover. And then there's the problem where some heads don't have a crossover port. Interesting though.

[HallJ]

If you have a big cam and heads you will get mist on the O-2 sensor. That limits its life. So far the best trick seems to be turn on the sensors, let them heat up and then fire up the engine. You still have to keep the idling down to a min.

I am sure that someone will have a solution, but that is what seems to happen in big power efi land so far.

It may require you to keep the water separated from the exhaust until just before the transom?

[The Hedgehog]

It may require you to keep the water separated from the exhaust until just before the transom?

Dry pipes!

It would take one heck of a system on my 850. I am sure it is doable and may have been tried. I think that Griz was saying the closed loop has been done on outboards.

[BigGrizzly]

Gee O2 sensor in the hedder pipe what an idea. Honda has been doing this for years they also put one down the pipe as well. This is for better fuel and emissions monitoring. What is happening is that they are making lower temperature O2 sensors to keep the condensation down to eliminate failures, in cars and our outboards. It will all happen but the cost of research is the issue. Quite frankly no major company gives a crap on marine engines. Merc doesn't have the resources and $$$$ to do it, or pressure from EPA. Remember the big Varado is not for sale in California. Just stirring the pot.

[BUIZILLA]

is anybody using an Innovate DFI air fuel meter?

[HallJ]

is anybody using an Innovate DFI air fuel meter?

I use the Innovate LM1. What's the DFI?

Jeff

[BUIZILLA]

it's an LM1.... I just had the instructions out at the time and it says Digital Fuel Injection.... same thing.... GREAT tuning piece..