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View Full Version : Alpha 1, low water P/U not pumping



VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 07:20 AM
After 2 weekends of hell my brother and I got the drive replaced and revamped.

Everything is new back there now... bellows, hoses, clamps, bearing, etc. etc. The drive has a few hours on it, bought it from another member here, but has been sitting for a couple of years.

We decided to fire the engine without changing the water pump, hoping it was good (i.e we were pooped from doing drive work). We dipped the drive in a big bucket of water because I don't have a flush kit yet. The low water pickups were in the water no problem. the connection tube that runs from the pickup to the water pump was OUT of the water.

Fired the engine, let it run about 45 seconds, no pumping.

Then we dropped the lower, changed the impeller, pump housing, all gaskets, etc.

Fired again, no pumping. The old impeller had one blade broken, hardly anything that would stop the flow of water all together.

so... Did we screw the job up, or does the drive have to be submersed more? any other thoughts? Part of me thinks we didn't get the pump housing to seat properly. The other part of me thinks that the drive needs to be submerged past the pickup tube in order to get a prime.

Cuda
04-13-2009, 07:37 AM
I don't really recall, but I think there is a connection from the foot to the drive that has to be connected just right. That impeller only had about ten hours on it, but it was back in 2001. :)

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 07:46 AM
I don't really recall, but I think there is a connection from the foot to the drive that has to be connected just right. That impeller only had about ten hours on it, but it was back in 2001. :)

Thanks man, hope you are doing well.

The impeller was just old really. Although it looked like you hit a sand bar and got towed home the last time you used the drive. There was a small beach in there:)

In all seriousness though, how did you flush it? The drive didn't pump water anywhere, we can tell because the water level didn't change and there wasn't any movement. it was just pumping air.

Trueser
04-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Possible that you Oil cooler is clogged.

I would try a Garbage can in instead of a bucket.

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 09:52 AM
Possible that you Oil cooler is clogged.

I can assure you that is impossible. :yes:

Plus, if I move the main hose from the transom assembly to the factory flush mount I can flush the engine by just using the pressure from the hose. I had to do that after I blew the drive a few weeks ago.

As far as using a trash can, there is a fine balance of getting the drive to fit inside of something. Too tall won't work because the transom assembly. Too small dimension wise you hit the rams. etc. It seems easy until you try to do it.

I think the best option would be a big cooler, but I don't have a big enough one.

MOP
04-13-2009, 10:58 AM
Another thing to try is to tilt the drive up a ways that should let you know if the hose from the gimble to the shield is bad, the Alpha hose does some snake job and kinks easily.
When I still had the Alpha on my 22 I changed out the krappy Merc which is nothing more then heater, I switched to marine wire wound. It was a bear to get on and I bled a little but no way would it kink.

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 02:51 PM
Another thing to try is to tilt the drive up a ways that should let you know if the hose from the gimble to the shield is bad, the Alpha hose does some snake job and kinks easily.
When I still had the Alpha on my 22 I changed out the krappy Merc which is nothing more then heater, I switched to marine wire wound. It was a bear to get on and I bled a little but no way would it kink.

That is new and looks good but I will check again just in case...

mrfixxall
04-13-2009, 03:26 PM
That is new and looks good but I will check again just in case...


take the hose off the inner transm that feed the engine with water(inside boat),stick a garden hose on it and clamp it,turn the garden hose on jus a little and look for leaks where the upper housing and the lower housing meets..is their a leak? if so seperate the drive and look at the little plastic housing where the brass tube slides into,those older housing will leak and melt if the drive was ever over heated..

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 03:34 PM
take the hose off the inner transm that feed the engine with water(inside boat),stick a garden hose on it and clamp it,turn the garden hose on jus a little and look for leaks where the upper housing and the lower housing meets..is their a leak? if so seperate the drive and look at the little plastic housing where the brass tube slides into,those older housing will leak and melt if the drive was ever over heated..

I just replaced the whole housing. old one was fine too, but I bought the whole thing just in case.

If the drive still leaks at the seam what should I do?

The way the water is in the nose cone I'm thinking that it could be lack of prime when the drive is not moving and too far out of the water.

Just Say N20
04-13-2009, 03:54 PM
Did you find the broken/missing impeller blade when you took it apart?

I have seen them travel slightly upstream and then get wedged in the plumbing, effectively restricting the flow of water, even from a new impeller.

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Did you find the broken/missing impeller blade when you took it apart?

I have seen them travel slightly upstream and then get wedged in the plumbing, effectively restricting the flow of water, even from a new impeller.

nope, one blade was slightly broken but still attached.

Keep any ideas coming please... At least I'm knocking the list down:yes:

mrfixxall
04-13-2009, 08:05 PM
nope, one blade was slightly broken but still attached.
Keep any ideas coming please... At least I'm knocking the list down:yes:

Did you use the rite plate under the impeller?

the plastic housing i was refering to is in the upper housing and not the one that goes around the impeller..

Cuda
04-13-2009, 08:19 PM
Thanks man, hope you are doing well.
The impeller was just old really. Although it looked like you hit a sand bar and got towed home the last time you used the drive. There was a small beach in there:)
In all seriousness though, how did you flush it? The drive didn't pump water anywhere, we can tell because the water level didn't change and there wasn't any movement. it was just pumping air.
Never hit a sandbar, or got towed with it. It pumps water, that's what that ss hose is for. The Merc drive mech who went through it said it looked like the gears had never been used. I put about ten hours on it before buying my 242 Formula with twin 350's. There wasn't a thing wrong with it back in '01. You can buy a muff that fits that nosecone. Bob's in Tampa has them. I think it was about20 bucks.

Cuda
04-13-2009, 08:21 PM
Did you use the rite plate under the impeller?
the plastic housing i was refering to is in the upper housing and not the one that goes around the impeller..
That would be my first suspect.

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 09:31 PM
Never hit a sandbar, or got towed with it. It pumps water, that's what that ss hose is for. The Merc drive mech who went through it said it looked like the gears had never been used. I put about ten hours on it before buying my 242 Formula with twin 350's. There wasn't a thing wrong with it back in '01. You can buy a muff that fits that nosecone. Bob's in Tampa has them. I think it was about20 bucks.

That was a joke Joe... just the way drives get. :yes: The drive looks great!

I assure you, I'm not complaining or bustin' your balls. Eddie and I were laughing our rear ends off all weekend working on the boat. it could have been hysteria though:wrench: Anyone who has met either of us knows we usually smile and laugh while talking, it's tough to convey that through a forum though:frown:

I'm trying to learn more about this setup... I'm thinking it's tough to get enough suction without the full drive in the water OR with the real flush kit applying positive pressure to it. That's why I was wondering how you flushed it. curious more than anything.

I'll order a flush kit tomorrow from Bob's regardless:) my wife will probably kill me for buying another part, but all well:eek:

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 09:33 PM
Did you use the rite plate under the impeller?
the plastic housing i was refering to is in the upper housing and not the one that goes around the impeller..

Yes... 1 gasket under the base of the housing. Then there is a trio, gasket, metal gasket, gasket... then the upper housing. We carefully took it apart and put it back together exactly how the old one was. I got a kit that came with everything... it has new o rings, gaskets, housing, impeller, etc. all the way down to the gaskets for the drain and vent plugs.

handfulz28
04-13-2009, 09:47 PM
Can you "prime" it by using the garden hose to backflush & fill it? Might confirm that there's no flow blockage also. I know it won't actually hold water but maybe just getting water through there is what it needs.

Otherwise dunk it at the ramp?

Cuda
04-13-2009, 09:48 PM
Check the little intake holes in the nose. It's possible they got clogged with dust through the years. :)

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Can you "prime" it by using the garden hose to backflush & fill it? Might confirm that there's no flow blockage also. I know it won't actually hold water but maybe just getting water through there is what it needs.

Otherwise dunk it at the ramp?

I am going to try to back fill it as soon as I can... It DUMPED rain here today to the point of flooding and looks like tomorrow will be the same so I'm waiting patiently. I'm an hour from the ramp so that's out unless I have to.


Check the little intake holes in the nose. It's possible they got clogged with dust through the years. :)

they seem fine, and I pulled the SS braided hose and that seems fine... although I think another run through everything is needed just to give me peace of mind. it could be that the inside of the nosecone is clogged now that you mention the holes... backflush is needed too:cool!:

Just Say N20
04-13-2009, 10:23 PM
If installed correctly you shouldn't have to "Prime" the pump. These have a LOT of suction.

I know the lower unit is on the boat, and I haven't taken one off in years, so I don't remember how much work it is. But, if it was off, you should be able to spin the drive shaft manually, and if the water inlet is below water level, it will pump water, even turning slowly, like maybe 100 rpms. Obviously, you have to be careful to spin it the correct direction, or you will fold the vanes of the impeller backwards, and get to go through the impeller replacement process again. Fortunately, it is pretty hard to force it to go the wrong way. Really hard, actually.

I have done this numerous times with outboard lower units, turning them with an electric drill. And yes, being juvenile by putting the unit in gear and seeing what a mess I could make in the set tub. :biggrin.:

VetteLT193
04-13-2009, 10:44 PM
If installed correctly you shouldn't have to "Prime" the pump. These have a LOT of suction.

I know the lower unit is on the boat, and I haven't taken one off in years, so I don't remember how much work it is. But, if it was off, you should be able to spin the drive shaft manually, and if the water inlet is below water level, it will pump water, even turning slowly, like maybe 100 rpms. Obviously, you have to be careful to spin it the correct direction, or you will fold the vanes of the impeller backwards, and get to go through the impeller replacement process again. Fortunately, it is pretty hard to force it to go the wrong way. Really hard, actually.

I have done this numerous times with outboard lower units, turning them with an electric drill. And yes, being juvenile by putting the unit in gear and seeing what a mess I could make in the set tub. :biggrin.:

is that with a low water pickup? mine has quite the path to take...

CHACHI
04-14-2009, 06:19 AM
Is part number 28 installed?http://www.mercruiserparts.com/images/CRUISER/818183.91/19.png

Just Say N20
04-14-2009, 06:39 AM
is that with a low water pickup? mine has quite the path to take...

Yes.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 06:56 AM
Is part number 28 installed?http://www.mercruiserparts.com/images/CRUISER/818183.91/19.png

yes.

There are a bunch of differences though between that picture and what I have.

23,17,24 all look different than the pic. what I came out and what went in looked the same though.

the 2 o rings, part 30, didn't exist out or in... the top of the housing looks different too. but close.

BUIZILLA
04-14-2009, 07:04 AM
when you say low water pickup.... where exactly is the pickup? the lower housing has 2 chambers and I *think* the inlet plate has to be reversed (flipped) or it blocks the water intake into the pump...

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 07:29 AM
when you say low water pickup.... where exactly is the pickup? the lower housing has 2 chambers and I *think* the inlet plate has to be reversed (flipped) or it blocks the water intake into the pump...

The pickup is 4 (maybe 5) holes in the bottom of the pointy part of the drive. From there, water runs up the nose cone to an external water line, then back in directly into the water pump housing.

http://www.bobsmachine.com/expoxy3.jpg

We put the pump in exactly how it came out Don't forget, the old pump worked for Cuda but did not for me and it only had one bad blade. In my opinion it should have pumped something the way it was... I have had impellers with every other blade sheared off completely that still pumped water.

Based on what everyone is said I plan on:

-Back flushing water into the drive to make sure everything looks good, no external leaks.
-Disconnecting the external pickup line and back flushing the nose cone part to make sure nothing is backed up in there.
-Buying the real flush kit instead of using the retardo-bucket method.:lifeprese:

Everything else looks fine. We did a quickie test in Forward Neutral Reverse and all is good

gcarter
04-14-2009, 07:29 AM
I think the fische Ken posted is a Gen. II.
There're a LOT of differences.

gcarter
04-14-2009, 07:33 AM
Bob, if you wanted to, you could do away w/this whole thing.
It simplifies your whole life.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 07:40 AM
Bob, if you wanted to, you could do away w/this whole thing.
It simplifies your whole life.

How? I have a blown regular Alpha and this one. I also have a wife that is on a post birth emotional roller coaster and will probably kill me if I buy anything else. :eek:

I don't think the lower of this drive can be converted back.... ever.

I do like the look of it, and the drive is practically new so I'd like to use it if I can get the water to pump.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 07:43 AM
I think the fische Ken posted is a Gen. II.
There're a LOT of differences.

Yep, that makes sense. here is Gen I

http://www.mercruiserparts.com/images/CRUISER/99964/30068.png

Mine looks just like this.... whew, glad I didn't screw this part up:yes:

gcarter
04-14-2009, 07:46 AM
How? I have a blown regular Alpha and this one. I also have a wife that is on a post birth emotional roller coaster and will probably kill me if I buy anything else. :eek:

I don't think the lower of this drive can be converted back.... ever.

I do like the look of it, and the drive is practically new so I'd like to use it if I can get the water to pump.
Well, there's the thing about your wife and buying things......
But a through transom pickup and a crank driven pump will do wonders for you.

MOP
04-14-2009, 07:46 AM
George is thinking crank mounted pump and transom pickup, pretty fool proof setup.

CHACHI
04-14-2009, 07:47 AM
Bob, sorry for the confusion.

Ken

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 07:54 AM
Well, there's the thing about your wife and buying things......
But a through transom pickup and a crank driven pump will do wonders for you.

George is thinking crank mounted pump and transom pickup, pretty fool proof setup.

I agree with this setup. I will do this.... eventually. For now I gotta get this thing to work as is because buying the pickup and pump is out of the question for the next few months.

I am hoping to get a season with this pump then upgrade over winter. I purchased the new Alpha water pump as soon as I bought the boat... I took the lower down on the old drive and the impeller was too new to replace so I never used the new one... perfect solution to a problem, or so I thought.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 07:54 AM
Bob, sorry for the confusion.

Ken

It's all good.

Cuda
04-14-2009, 08:28 AM
Did you blow the upper, or the lower?

BigGrizzly
04-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Vette, we will die together, yesterday I went to west marine just to buy bilge coat:biggrin.:

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 09:00 AM
Did you blow the upper, or the lower?

Upper on the old one, but it was shifting like crap the last time I went out...


Vette, we will die together, yesterday I went to west marine just to buy bilge coat:biggrin.:

LOL. regular crazy woman is nothing like post birth crazy woman though :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

BigGrizzly
04-14-2009, 09:10 AM
Sorry Vette I, I forgot, it has been 21 years since that happened, but I am remembering vividly, I went to National lumber that day and came home with another drill motor,oops:biggrin.:

mrfixxall
04-14-2009, 09:35 AM
I agree with this setup. I will do this.... eventually. For now I gotta get this thing to work as is because buying the pickup and pump is out of the question for the next few months.
I am hoping to get a season with this pump then upgrade over winter. I purchased the new Alpha water pump as soon as I bought the boat... I took the lower down on the old drive and the impeller was too new to replace so I never used the new one... perfect solution to a problem, or so I thought.


vette, i have a crank mounted pump from a volvo for a sbc,,75 bucks and its yours..

Cuda
04-14-2009, 10:27 AM
George is thinking crank mounted pump and transom pickup, pretty fool proof setup.
This outdrive was from an Alpha set up with twins, and belt driven seawater pumps. There wasn't even an impeller in the drive at all. I had to buy the SS water hose from the foot to the water pump. I bought it at Bob's in Tampa the same time I bought the flush. It's shown as a rubber hose in the picture above.

BUIZILLA
04-14-2009, 10:48 AM
my SS came with no impeller since it was transom pickup as well

when I simply added the impeller and key it didn't pump

I had to flip the lower plate the channel it correctly since the lower plate blocked off the upstream water from the nostrils

then it worked great

CHACHI
04-14-2009, 10:52 AM
When I changed the water pump in my Alpha S/S, the pump kit from Merc didn't have all the correct gaskets, I had to cut some of the middle out of the supplied gaskets to work. And work it did, keep the bottom of the bay free of any type of growth.

Ken

JustMercMe
04-14-2009, 12:35 PM
As far as the flusher....Try finding a regular flusher at Wally world(metal one with 2 rubber suction cups) take the suction cup with the hose fitting off and use a regular black bungee cord to hold the cup over the low water holes.....Trust me, works a hell of a lot better than that bob's kit and it's cheaper so the wife won't complain so much when you pick one up while grabbing some diapers or formula!:yes::wink:

Cuda
04-14-2009, 12:39 PM
As far as the flusher....Try finding a regular flusher at Wally world(metal one with 2 rubber suction cups) take the suction cup with the hose fitting off and use a regular black bungee cord to hold the cup over the low water holes.....Trust me, works a hell of a lot better than that bob's kit and it's cheaper so the wife won't complain so much when you pick one up while grabbing some diapers or formula!:yes::wink:
It didn't fit that one, trust me, I tried. It's shaped entirely differently, and the pick up holes are on the bottom, not the sides.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 12:48 PM
It didn't fit that one, trust me, I tried. It's shaped entirely differently, and the pick up holes are on the bottom, not the sides.

And I'm guessing the bob's flusher has some sort of decent seal so there is positive pressure going into the drive?

I really think my problem is the water pump is not strong enough to fill up the nose cone. It's like I'm dangling the pump just above the water line expecting it to magically suck up the water.

VetteLT193
04-14-2009, 12:57 PM
vette, i have a crank mounted pump from a volvo for a sbc,,75 bucks and its yours..

I appreciate it, but I really would like to get it working as is. I still have to order a couple other very needed parts to be totally good to go, like the temp sender.

Cuda
04-14-2009, 01:57 PM
And I'm guessing the bob's flusher has some sort of decent seal so there is positive pressure going into the drive?
I really think my problem is the water pump is not strong enough to fill up the nose cone. It's like I'm dangling the pump just above the water line expecting it to magically suck up the water.
It's not a positive seal, but it has a rubber part that the nose fits into, and keep a solid stream of water to the intake ports. It's held on by a bungee cord that pulls it back towards the bullet. If there is plenty of water, I guarantee it's sucking air somewhere, intead of water. Air is a lot easier to suck up, than water. The wp should be plenty strong to pump it up.

VetteLT193
04-25-2009, 02:27 PM
Woo hoo, ran the boat today. Went alone... The nose cone, so far, makes the boat act way different. I'll elaborate more after some more seat time.

I thought I hit a log, turns out I hit part of the outdrive. Both Cuda and I tried to blend the nose cone in multiple times. I'd call every attempt unsuccessful.

I guess the drive said "F-U, re do me properly!"

The water PSI was low, never went higher than 5psi even at speed. not sure if that is alpha or I have a problem. Getting there for sure. Pretty good day, even being alone:)

BigGrizzly
04-25-2009, 09:45 PM
Corrosion, never sleeps. Now get it all off wash with salt terminator. Try to remove it to clean it and then use JB weld instead of marine tex and bondo. Just so you know I have seen this many times, especially on low water pickups in salt areas and some bass boats too from fresh water applications. The problem is the pick up is not sealed well on nose cone conversions, then is not flush with salt terminator or like substance, even dish water detergent works to help end the corrosion. Just so you know plain water does not work by itself.

VetteLT193
04-26-2009, 06:47 PM
Corrosion, never sleeps. Now get it all off wash with salt terminator. Try to remove it to clean it and then use JB weld instead of marine tex and bondo. Just so you know I have seen this many times, especially on low water pickups in salt areas and some bass boats too from fresh water applications. The problem is the pick up is not sealed well on nose cone conversions, then is not flush with salt terminator or like substance, even dish water detergent works to help end the corrosion. Just so you know plain water does not work by itself.


I run salt away, I think it's basically the same stuff?

I have an underwater 2 part epoxy for the drive... hopefully it will work well.

MOP
04-26-2009, 08:42 PM
Hardest part is getting it clean enough to hold the Epoxy, it has to be down to bright then coated with Zinchromate primer before you apply the Epoxy. Cast aluminum is not that easy to bond to, Phosphating and Anodizing are used in various applications but not practical for our uses. You need to disappear every last spec of corrosion and immediately coat with the primer as aluminum oxidized extremely fast, within hours your cleaning job is shot and needs to be redone to insure a lasting bond.

Phil

BigGrizzly
04-27-2009, 09:14 AM
What Phil said is mostly true Aluminum is a natural release for resin and most epoxy. JB weld and Devcon are better suited. The under water stus isn't any different except it is suppose to cure under water. As for Salt Away that is what I really use and it is the same stuff, even the instructions on mixing are the same. As for my personal opinion I would remove the pump and low water pickup and do a hull pickup. I am sure you could con Eddie to come up and help. My guess with the two of you working and 2 beers each it could be done before dinner and the other 10 beers each.:yes::eek:

VetteLT193
04-27-2009, 03:32 PM
What Phil said is mostly true Aluminum is a natural release for resin and most epoxy. JB weld and Devcon are better suited. The under water stus isn't any different except it is suppose to cure under water. As for Salt Away that is what I really use and it is the same stuff, even the instructions on mixing are the same. As for my personal opinion I would remove the pump and low water pickup and do a hull pickup. I am sure you could con Eddie to come up and help. My guess with the two of you working and 2 beers each it could be done before dinner and the other 10 beers each.:yes::eek:


HAHAHa. Eddie and I are easy to keep happy at least.

I'll do the through hull pickup eventually. When that happens I'll just fill in the remaining holes on the drive. For now, the sun is hot and I have to get out and actually use the boat.

I'll go with JB weld then, I don't want to have another huge chunk come off. Thankfully this last time I was running about 1200 RPM. if it happened at higher speed I don't think it would have been fun.

BigGrizzly
04-27-2009, 07:08 PM
Actually use the boat instead of working on it, novel though. That is the smartest thing you have said in this whole thread:nilly: