Watch for the GM backruptcy... film at 11

[gold-n-rod]

I'm jus' sayin'. You heard it here first.

[mattyboy]

general mills is going bust

**** better get stocked up on me lucky charms

:tongue:

[boxy]

If it doesn't happen at 11:00, then what will you be saying ????

[gold-n-rod]

Auto task force sends team to GM
Justin Hyde • Detroit Free Press • April 8, 2009 • From Lansing State Journal

DETROIT -President Barack Obama's auto task force has dispatched a team of 15 people to General Motors Corp.'s headquarters. The team will work to speed up the automaker's turnaround plan announced earlier this month, an administration official said today.

The team is led by task force staffer Harry Wilson and includes experts from investment bank Rothschild. The team will spend much of the next two weeks in Detroit.

Obama said two weeks ago that GM was not viable but could become so if it made faster and deeper cuts in its business plan. The administration also ordered the ouster of former GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner.

These guys aren't in Motown to fiddle while Rome burns. The latest I heard is that it's not going down today. The question is whether it happens in Michigan or Delaware. I'm predicting Friday at the soonest, Monday at the latest.

[BUIZILLA]

I was told today by a Delphi insider it may be Sunday or Monday morning.. they weren't happy...

[roadtrip se]

Randy, maybe I am reading more into this than I should, but do I sense that you might be doing cartwheels over this little nugget of news?

If you are, living in Michigan and all, I hope you enjoy the moment because things are going to get a might bit more grim for Michigan when and if this happens. A whole lot more grim. That is EVERYONE in Michigan including government employees. The tax roles are funded by employed workers, if I could be so obvious.

Frankly, I don't see how it doesn't happen with the government running things now.

BTW, whatever happened to 60 days while we are tapping into the rumor mills?

[BUIZILLA]

the only positive thing I heard was that if the Govt forces it, which they are, and they handle it, which they will, the unions aren't going to be in any position to squawk much... the union then has to negotiate with the Govt to continue, and that's like fighting the IRS, totally uphill and they know they'll lose... might be a damn good thing..

[motorcity]

Also, get ready, the week of April 20th, the ax starts swinging. Salaried cuts are going to happen, theirs alot of worried people.

[gcarter]

There could have been a lot of time and money saved.......and a lot of time and effort saved in threads like this one.

[Ghost]

I'm very sympathetic to all involved. Even if this is the unavoidable thing, it is certainly extremely painful. What I am hoping is that the Feds do get out of it and let people who know the car business run things going forward. Assured of that I will be lining up not simply to buy but also to invest.

I believe we have extremely talented and experienced people who know how to design and build great cars and trucks. I believe they can succeed, even if the market is bad, if realistically sized for that market and unhitched from historical obligations that they can't possibly repay.

I have already embarked on my intent to buy things made here as much as I can, and this will continue. I am even willing to pay more for things made here, as the true costs of doing otherwise are very real and are burdening the real American worker to death. IMO, we will be well served to pull together as a nation, re-focused on our founding principles. Buying American and getting appalling costs of government off of the back of our industry seem like the best things I can do to make things better. I'm all ears if anyone has further ideas.

[Barry Eller]

After spending 35 years in the Automobile Industry, this saddens me too. My last 20 years was with a GM Dealership, Cadillac, Buick, GMC, Pontiac, and at onetime, Oldsmobile. I have friends that work in the Engineering Department for GM, that are scared to death, they have built their lives around their jobs and live in Michigan.

I'm thankful that I was able to walk away, take a sabbatical, and not loose anything (other than my 401k turning into a 201k).

My heart goes out to all that will be affected, the stress of it all has to be enormous.

[Ghost]

Part of what was supposed to happen in the 60 days for planning reorganization (that Todd rightly mentioned in his post above) was for GM's bondholders to negotiate what fraction of repayment they would settle for. This is an important thing for GM as it tries desperately not to fall into bankruptcy.

Settling for less is something the holders of GM bonds would have a LOT of motivation to do IF NOT FOR THE TAXPAYER FUNDED BANK BAILOUT. The reason being, there are probably lots of credit default swaps, essentially insurance, that pay the bondholders for their losses if GM goes bankrupt. If AIG and others had not been not propped up with ludicrous amounts of tax dollars, the bond insurers would already be bankrupt. So GM bondholders would have no insurance on their investments, and would desperately want to keep GM out of bankruptcy. Thus they would settle for getting some fraction of their money back, and this would help GM's chances of not slipping into bankruptcy.

But instead, since AIG and others got bailed out from THEIR bankruptcy, those GM bondholders now WON'T negotiate to settle for less from GM. They won't do it because now they will get ALL (or more) of their money back from the taxpayer, via AIG and others. So now, a bunch of the very people who should have a financial stake in making concessions to help GM stay alive, just want it to die, so they can collect the insurance money. Insurance money that was paid by the taxpayers, including all the good folks at GM and their suppliers.

Below I have linked a letter from a MI congressman, asking NOT to allow such bondholders to be paid their bond insurance claims if the bond insurer was bailed out with tax dollars. Makes sense to me, for any insurers who took the money voluntarily. (Any insurers that got pushed into taking the money, and who are willing to give it back, are another story of course.)

Moreover, the scenario is a stark example of how hopelessly twisted, confused, and unfair all this bailout stuff inherently gets. Letting the chips just fall in the marketplace would see lots of painful losses, but it is much more unfair when the politicians pick the winners and losers, and this situation illustrates that. An auto worker's tax dollars are now likely to hasten the end of his job. Nice.

Here's a link to the letter (http://issuu.com/repmccotter/docs/04.01.09letter?mode=a_p&documentId=090402143501-6033428dfedc4f9692a81a3c1f57ac62&layout=grey), if anyone is interested in knowing more.

Aside from being sickening, it's all just kind of bizarre.

[f_inscreenname]

Why don't they do what they did with the banks? Force a merge.
Or give GM (with a bunch of money) to Ford and kill Chrysler. Or give Chrysler to Ford and kill off GM. Or force GM and Chrysler together and kill off Ford so they will have less competition. Ooooorrrrr give GM to Ford and Chrysler to Honda, driving them out of business.:biggrin.:
I feel bad for some of these folks but....The guy pushing the broom around costing 50 bucks an hour had to see it coming.
I've been through it. My little flooring company (me and two other guys) got burned out of about 10 grand when Color Tile went belly up. My life savings at the time was gone. 10 grand or 10 million if it's all you got it's all ya got.

[Carl C]

Obie will fix things up. The Segway car is coming!:yippie:

[joel3078]

Kill all 3 of them, throw out the trash, then merge them all together and call it AMC - American Motors Corporation. :eek:

If the pictures on the website below don't give you a chuckle, just remember a bad day on the water is better than a good day in the office.

Enjoy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Motors

[Carl C]

I was an AMC mechanic for quite a few years and they had some cool products. The Gremlin made a sweet hot rod with the long hood/short deck, The AMX was cool as was the Rebel "The Machine". Don't forget that AMC owned Jeep for many years and made lots of cool CJ-5s, CJ-7s and Grand Cherokees. The Eagle was the first 4WD American car that I am aware of and it used heavy duty jeep components. Things went downhill fast when they joined up (it was not a merger) with Renault and the Pacer did have some major engineering flaws. Little AMC also built some good engines of their own including the 304, a very durable straight six and a 40something big block. They were a respectable company until Renault's crap hurt their reputation and then Chrysler bought them out. My solution to this mess would be to put a $500 tariff on all foreign make vehicles (regardless of where they are manufactured) and tariffs on all imported products until the trade deficit evens out. The auto workers aren't making what they used to, they have taken concessions. It is the legacy and health care costs that are hurting the American auto companies the most. You folks who want to see them gone, be careful what you wish for. It will be devastating to the entire country.

[gold-n-rod]

My solution to this mess would be to put a $500 tariff on all foreign make vehicles (regardless of where they are manufactured) and tariffs on all imported products until the trade deficit evens out.

Better re-read your history book, Bueller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act


In the opinion of most economists, the Smoot-Hawley Act was a catalyst for the severe reduction in U.S.-European trade from its high in 1929 to its depressed levels of 1932 that accompanied the start of the Great Depression.

[Carl C]

Better re-read your history book, Bueller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act

Well, Randy, with all due respect, that was then and this is now....Somethin's gotta "change"......

[yeller]

The Gremlin made a sweet hot rod with the long hood/short deck, Little AMC also built some good engines of their own including the 304, a very durable straight six and a 40something big block. Not many people will admit to liking the Gremlin. I had 3 of them. BTW: It was a 401 Carl........but.......it was a small block. AMC never made a big block.

[Carl C]

Yup, 401. They also made a 390 of their own. I'd love to have a solid Gremlin. Don't go lookin' for me though, the money tree is running out of fruit!

MP, the pups are all sold.:(

[HallJ]

69-70 AMX on my VERY short list of cars to put in the garage..

My Dad's AMX.

Still have it! He used to run it in SCCA A Production back in the day.

My brother ran it last fall.

P.S. Superhatz has a Mark Donahue Javelin!

Jeff

[Carl C]

That's cool! I loved AMC. They were a class act. They just couldn't compete when the government started mandating everything. Then they teamed up with Renault...bad mistake...kind of like Chrysler teaming up with Fiat....

[Ghost]

Better re-read your history book, Bueller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff_Act


Well, Randy, with all due respect, that was then and this is now....Somethin's gotta "change"......

I'm not a fan of tariffs and protectionism generally. There is a longstanding assertion that the Chinese have artificially devalued their currency to undercut our industry even more than the wage difference between our countries already does. So, I suppose there is a question about protectionism versus selectively trying to negate the anti-free-trade actions of other states. With a trade imbalance as big as ours, I don't know that they have a lot of power in this, IF we would restrain our spending so that we don't have to keep borrowing from them. Of course, our current monetary policies may p1ss them off enough that they won't lend to us anyhow, so maybe we don't have much to lose, short of war.

One thing I suspect might be different for us today than in the Great Depression is that I think we were a net exporter back then. Probably a big one. Nowadays, when we hemorrhage 750 billion overseas annually, my guess is that trade wars probably would not be as devastating to us.

But this is not what I think is the ideal course, I just think it *might* be somewhat different from the Hawley Smoot days. But in the long run, it seems better to me to instead get our house in order, and stop allowing people here to get paid for government-created jobs that produce little or no value (or negative value), and try to keep trade as free as we can. It also seems sensible to build lots of nuclear plants, especially if that might give us potential to really use electric or hydrogen cars on any large scale. This would keep a lot of wealth on our shores, over time. Natural gas cars would too, I think.

Circling back to cars, I loved seeing the little AMC history. A highschool buddy of mine had a Javelin (just the 290, but still) which was awesome compared to all the little econoboxes of the mid 80s. And my uncle had an Eagle wagon--I always thought it was pretty cool.

[gcarter]

I seem to remember a story about the French attempting to keep Honda imports to a low number a number of years ago by having the cars come in at only one port and each one had to be inspected by a person w/special credentials...well, there were only a handful of these folks and apparently they took their time accomplishing their duties.
You can just imagine a French inspector being particularly slow.
If true, I'm sure it had the desired effect w/o tariffs.

[HallJ]

My friend owns one of the two Spirit AMX's that ran the 24hrs of Nurburgring.

Jeff

[yeller]

P.S. Superhatz has a Mark Donahue Javelin!Nice cars, but difficult car to determine if they are correct because they didn't have any special serial #'s indicating a Mark Donahue edition. Saw the actual Donahue race car when I drove to an AMC car show in Cali in the 80's. Followed a friend down who had Shirley Shahan's S/S AMX "Drag-On-Lady". Only 52 S/S AMX's ever made. Shirley actually came to the event to see her car. Said it was the only car she raced that she still didn't own.

My friend owns one of the two Spirit AMX's that ran the 24hrs of Nurburgring.Only 2902 Spirit AMX's made. I just sold mine. It was in storage for much too long and figured it was time to let it go.

[BUIZILLA]

thread hijack.. :shark:

no ransom :biggrin.:

[gcarter]

My Dad's AMX.

Still have it! He used to run it in SCCA A Production back in the day.

My brother ran it last fall.

P.S. Superhatz has a Mark Donahue Javelin!

Jeff

Years ago I read Mark's book "An Unfair Advantage". I'm sure it's been out of print for a long time but it's a great read.
A lot of info about working for Penske and learning to be a race engineer.
Also a lot about the AMC program. They had a particularly difficult time w/distributor shaft lubrication and lost many races because of it. Also AMC had little or no interest in the program or their problems, so they had to develop many mods to that engine.

It's worthwhile trying to find a copy.

[zelatore]

Then they teamed up with Renault...bad mistake...kind of like Chrysler teaming up with Fiat....

Just curious Carl, why do you think Chrysler/Fiat is a mistake?

Do you think Fiat will simply gut Chrysler, take what they can, and toss the rest in the trash?

Or is it that you feel Fiat products are junk and that junk mentality will affect Chrysler products?

Or????

[Barry Eller]

You can just imagine a French inspector being particularly slow.

Inspector Clouseau?

[Carl C]

Or is it that you feel Fiat products are junk


:yes: Just a gut feeling, I could be wrong.


LOL, actually that was an obscure reference to the new puppy in the White House that seems to be the subject of every news broadcast these days :D :D :D

Well that will certainly make everything look rosy from the White House.

[CHACHI]

Inspector Clouseau?

That's CHEIF Inspector Clouseau, Barry.

And in all honestly when I read that post, Clouseau was all I could think of.

Ken

[zelatore]

On AMC -

Two Thumbs Up on the Trans Am era AMCs! It's hard to beat the old Trans Am series for great racing! Still one of if not my favorite vintage classes.


On Fiat -

If anybody's perception of Fiat is still based on the old 70's cars they sold here back in the day, you should check out what they do now. Fiat pretty much owns the entire Italian auto industry. They own Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Iveco, Magneti Marelli, New Holland, and probably a dozen other brands I can't think of off the top of my head. And although they don't currently sell most of their stuff in the US, I think you'd find the product range very good for each class they compete in. Maybe not the best in each class, but definitely competitive.

If you're still thinking of the 70's stuff, just ask yourself who wasn't building crap in the 70's? It's not like that was exactly the golden era for Detroit either.

[Donziweasel]

I was an AMC mechanic for quite a few years and they had some cool products.


Little AMC also built some good engines of their own including the 304, a very durable straight six and a 40something big block.

Carl, how can you be a mechanic for AMC for "quite a few years" and not know the engine sizes or classifications?



Things went downhill fast when they joined up (it was not a merger) with Renault

Carl, things were downhill WAY before Renault got involved. In 1977, AMC had lost over 70 million in the past two years. Remember, this is 1977. In 1978, it lost another 60 million and was below 2.0% of the market share. They begged Renualt for money, and Renault gave them a 150 million, plus 50 million in credits. Renault got 22% of the company. In 1979, AMC made a RECORD profit of 83 million. Renault SAVED AMC, at least for while. This was while making only AMC products.

Then the slide continued. Eventually Renualt owned 49% by 1982.

AMC's problem was AMC, not Renualt. Built crap, never really invested in new technology, and failed to move fast enough to keep up with the market. They were accused of building some of the ugliest and biggest pieces of junk in history, not including the AMX or Javelin.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the 258 straight six was probably one of the best 6 cylinders ever made. If I remember right, it was in Datsun's 240 and 260 Z, Jeeps and a host of other stuff. In jeep form, only 114 hp, but HUGE torque. The 304 and 360 were never really competitive with the 351, 350, 460 or 454. That being said, I did have a CJ-5 w/ 304. Would damn near lift the front end off the ground. This was more due to the light wieght of the Jeep vs. the power of the engine.

The point is 1. Renault never had more than a 49% stake in AMC. AMC went under, becuase in technical terms, they SUCKED! 2. Since 1999, Renault and Nissan have been partners. A VERY succesful partnership that has captured almost 10% of the global market. 3. Renault is still around, AMC RIP.

A Fiat partnership could be very beneficail for both companies. Access to new markets, dealerships, suppliers and technology.


My solution to this mess would be to put a $500 tariff on all foreign make vehicles (regardless of where they are manufactured) and tariffs on all imported products until the trade deficit evens out.

Like Randy said, been tried before. Do you really believe this? You do realize we export products around the world? Countries would tariff us into oblivion. Buick is the best selling car in China. What if they slapped a 50% tariff's on Buick? How does this help GM? GM sells more Buicks there than in North America.

How about your tarriffs on KIA's built in a very poor area of Georgia and Alabams? If it forced them to shut down, 1000's of jobs lost. How does this help the economy? How about Mercedesbuilt , BMW, and Audi in poor parts of the rural south?

Not only that, screw it, never mind.........

Carl, don't ever run for office........

[Carl C]

Carl, how can you be a mechanic for AMC for "quite a few years" and not know the engine sizes or classifications?




Carl, things were downhill WAY before Renault got involved. In 1977, AMC had lost over 70 million in the past two years. Remember, this is 1977. In 1978, it lost another 60 million and was below 2.0% of the market share. They begged Renualt for money, and Renault gave them a 150 million, plus 50 million in credits. Renault got 22% of the company. In 1979, AMC made a RECORD profit of 83 million. Renault SAVED AMC, at least for while. This was while making only AMC products.

Then the slide continued. Eventually Renualt owned 49% by 1982.

AMC's problem was AMC, not Renualt. Built crap, never really invested in new technology, and failed to move fast enough to keep up with the market. They were accused of building some of the ugliest and biggest pieces of junk in history, not including the AMX or Javelin.

The only thing I agree with you on is that the 258 straight six was probably one of the best 6 cylinders ever made. If I remember right, it was in Datsun's 240 and 260 Z, Jeeps and a host of other stuff. In jeep form, only 114 hp, but HUGE torque. The 304 and 360 were never really competitive with the 351, 350, 460 or 454. That being said, I did have a CJ-5 w/ 304. Would damn near lift the front end off the ground. This was more due to the light wieght of the Jeep vs. the power of the engine.

The point is 1. Renault never had more than a 49% stake in AMC. AMC went under, becuase in technical terms, they SUCKED! 2. Since 1999, Renault and Nissan have been partners. A VERY succesful partnership that has captured almost 10% of the global market. 3. Renault is still around, AMC RIP.

A Fiat partnership could be very beneficail for both companies. Access to new markets, dealerships, and suppliers.



Like Randy said, been tried before. Do you really believe this? You do realize we export products around the world? Countries would tariff us into oblivion. Buick is the best selling car in China. What if they slapped a 50% tariff's on Buick? How does this help GM? GM sells more Buicks there than in North America.

How about your tarriffs on KIA's built in a very poor area of Georgia and Alabams? If it forced them to shut down, 1000's of jobs lost. How does this help the economy? How about Mercedesbuilt , BMW, and Audi in poor parts of the rural south?

Not only that, screw it, never mind.........

Carl, don't ever run for office........

Worked at Rose AMC, Jeep and the various other names it went by as things evolved. Sorry if you don't believe me, I quit the occupation in 1993, it's been a while.

So the way you save the domestic auto industry is to open up the market to yet another foreign nameplate? Alrighty then:rolleyes:. How about an agreement to share some R&D with GM. Now wouldn't that make a little more sense? Maybe I should run for office!:rolleyes:

[Donziweasel]

So the way you save the domestic auto industry is to open up the market to yet another foreign nameplate? Alrighty then. How about an agreement to share some R&D with GM. Now wouldn't that make a little more sense? Maybe I should run for office!

I have not said 1. whether I believe they should be saved or not, and 2. if I thought they did need to be saved, how I would propose to do it.

FYI, I do want GM saved, but not why you would think. I have invested heavily in GM vehicles from my fleet in the last 2 years after being very dissatisfied with Ford in commercial applications. Hands down, GM makes a better commercial product than Ford and I am very pleased with them so far. The demise of GM would directly affect me almost immediatly. Parts, service, fleet relationships, tech support, etc......

[gcarter]

Maybe I should run for office!:rolleyes:

Dog catcher?????:biggrin.::rlol:

[Carl C]

President of the United States of America:)

Change that will bring jobs, prosperity and respect back to this great country.

A gas guzzling truck in every driveway and a Donzi at every dock.

Vote for me and I'll set you free.:cool!:

[gold-n-rod]

Trying to get this back on track...

Here's an editorial from the Northern Express, Northern Michigan's Weekly, April 6-12, 2009 Vol. 19 No. 14.


The bright side of bankruptcy
Robert Downes

A friend compares the current economic crisis to the stomach flu. “I hate to throw up,” he says. “You resist and resist and keep feeling sicker until you can’t take it anymore. Then you’re glad you threw up and got it over with.”
It’s a good metaphor for what ails General Motors and the Big 3 automakers. Should taxpayers give GM a heave and get it over with, or should we keep resisting the company’s bankruptcy until we just can’t take it anymore?
Either way, like the consequences of stomach flu, it’s starting to seem inevitable.

Now, it looks as if the federal government is holding up the toilet seat and giving GM a comforting pat on the back to do the Thing That Must Be Done.
Last September, the feds gave the Big 3 automakers a $25 billion loan. In November the automakers were back, asking for $50 billion more. They were told to get their act together and come up with a plan for reviving the auto industry.

A week ago, the Obama administration decided that the carmakers’ plan was too little, too late, with rosy sales projections that weren’t likely to bear fruit. Basically, GM’s plan was “lend us more money.”

When GM Chairman Rick Wagoner resigned under pressure in the wake of a lackluster plan, President Obama hinted that a speedy “controlled” bankruptcy might be the best way to bring the company back to health, with the government guaranteeing auto warranties until GM is restructured. Within a day or so, new GM CEO Frederick A. Henderson was saying that bankruptcy was “probable” as a means of “recreating and reinventing General Motors as a competitive enterprise, one that wins in the marketplace.”

Bankruptcy would create more hardship for Michigan in the short term. There are an estimated 266,000 GM workers, many of them spread across five Midwestern states. By one estimate, seven times that number of workers in the auto parts industry will lose their jobs if GM goes out of business.
And those auto parts suppliers will perhaps receive only pennies on the dollar for what they’re owed by GM. Who will save them?

Then there are the 400,000 or so retirees whose “legacy” costs in the way of health benefits and pensions take $1,000 in profit off the top of every GM vehicle sold.

But bankruptcy doesn’t mean the end of the world. In 2001, Congress bailed out the U.S. airlines industry with a $15 billion package, similar to that provided to the auto companies. In 2005, Northwest Airlines (NWA) filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from its creditors. It was joined by Delta, United and US Airways -- four of the six largest airlines in the country, all declaring bankruptcy at the same time.

Yet the planes of those airlines kept on flying despite being in bankruptcy, and employees kept receiving paychecks. Northwest emerged from bankruptcy in 2007 and recently merged with Delta to create the world’s largest airline.

Then there’s Kmart, which declared bankruptcy in 2002. The company closed more than 300 stores and laid off 34,000 employees. It emerged from Chapter 11 a year later and went on to purchase Sears. Both chains are still around (although sometimes it seems barely).

Northwest Airlines and Kmart are cited, because like GM, they too were big players in Michigan. Kmart had its former headquarters in Troy, while NWA operates a major hub at Metro Airport in Detroit. And like GM, Northwest Airlines has also had legendary problems between labor and management.
So it is possible to find a bright side to bankruptcy, and the mood of the country seems to be going in that direction, rather than force-feeding GM more taxpayers’ cash in the hope that this dodo will someday fly.

Consider that GM’s big ‘innovation’ over the past decade was the Hummer, a vehicle that symbolizes all that’s bad about America with the hallmarks of military aggression, conspicious consumption, and a lack of concern for the environment or energy independence.

While Japanese carmakers were coming up with innovations that have captured the market, GM seemed more interested in lobbying against EPA standards to cut emissions and improve mileage. Instead of creating an alternative to the Toyota Prius or Honda Insight, GM carried on with a product line that was dependent on the SUV.

And like the management of GM, it often seems as if the UAW is suspended in another time -- the 1970s -- when much of their benefit and pension package was negotiated. The ground has shifted since then as a result of globalization and the UAW hasn’t sold taxpayers on the idea of paying them more than workers at Toyota or Hyundai plants in America, especially when many taxpayers aren’t making half of their $60,000-per-year average pay.
“Enough is enough!” notes a blogger on a site relating to GM’s troubles. “How long are we going to continue to prop up a failing company? Great pay, great benefits, great pensions, terrible products, no sales, no profits!”

It would be a mistake, however, to assume that bankruptcy will be a magic pill to cure GM. You can fire the company’s management, discontinue unpopular models, renegotiate pay, downsize employee health plans, and cut into pensions and legacy costs and still end up with a company that makes products that don’t sell.

But we can hope for the best, and wish GM well on its new ‘green’ direction with products such as the Chevy Volt electric car planned for 2010. This is a critical opportunity for GM, considering that the Chinese have announced that they are making it a top priority to capture the world's electric car market. Last week, China announced that it would increase its production of electric and hybrid cars to 500,000 by the end of 2011, up from just 2,100 last year.

Isn’t that a market that the Big 3 should be desperate to own? The odometer on my car just passed 100,000 miles, but I'm holding onto it until someone comes out with a good, all-electric car. I hope it’s an American carmaker.
There’s a saying from the Vietnam War era: “Sometimes you have to destroy a village to save it.” Perhaps the same holds true with GM and bankruptcy.

[yeller]

The 304 and 360 were never really competitive with the 351, 350, ..... Gotta disagree with you on this one DW. I'd put a similarly prepared 360 against a 350 or 351 any day of the week. Those 360's were outstanding motors. I will agree though that AMC didn't make performance versions of it like the 351 and 350. And it was AMC's 290, (basically the earlier version of the 304) that beat the big 3 and won the 1970 Trans Am series.

[mrfixxall]

My Dad's AMX.

Still have it! He used to run it in SCCA A Production back in the day.

My brother ran it last fall.

P.S. Superhatz has a Mark Donahue Javelin!

Jeff

cool cars! i had a 70 amx with a built 401, the only downfall was i couldnt keep axles in it,had to go to strange to make me some..

[roadtrip se]

So I was right...

So by chance, did you receive this lovely piece of prose written on the back of a piece of tree bark?

Looks legit, standard WSJ mumbo-jumbo, but then we take a swing at the Hummer line and we go instant green from there. Note to someone who lives in Michigan, people wanted and bought SUVs, so we built them here and so did everybody else including the Aisans.

Rubbish. Remember what I said about who pays your salary? There is room for you too on the unemployment line, together with the laid off auto workers...

In the mean time, if you really would like to put that tree bark to a useful purpose, try utilizing it in the place of toilet paper.

[Donziweasel]

Gotta disagree with you on this one DW. I'd put a similarly prepared 360 against a 350 or 351 any day of the week.

I have seen some mean older Wagoneers with massaged 360 than ran like bat out of hell. Still, they were never really developed performance wise and the aftermarket stuff was pretty slim pickens. They had potential, but not many reached it. I always thought the 304 in my CJ-5 had a lot of potential.

[Ghost]

As far as that article goes, there was a curious mix of points. Some seem valid. Some seem hopelessly wrong.

The suggestion that GM builds cars Americans don't want seems way off. The EPA may set standards that conflict with what Americans want, but GM strikes me as building a lot of things that Americans DO want. Hell, that's why the Toyotas and Hondas and Nissans (and even Porsches to an extent) started building SUVs and trucks after a long while. Further, I still am not buying the dated quality argument.

And their big look forward, to the Volt, strikes me as hopeless, given what I've heard about it. Maybe it will serve as an engineering stepping stone, but I don't see the Volt as the one that makes it. Pioneer, maybe, but not the electric Model T. I think that lots of other offerings will be better for GM in the near term.

So, like a lot of things, is it fair to say there is some truth and some myth?

[zelatore]

I have to agree. The Volt is nothing more than hype to make the sierra club types feel good. Going into production with the technology will be good for GM as a learning exercise, and they can use it as a green halo product, but it won't save the company. They simply can't/won't sell enough of them to make a dent in the bottom line. In fact, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear the car is a loss leader and that just like the EV before it and the Honda Clarity currently, they will loose money on each one sold. As I said before however, that doesn't necessarily make the car a looser over-all as it will bring with it a payback in other areas.

No, the things that can make GM profitable are things that are already underway. The improvements in quality. The improvements in product. Cars and trucks people actually aspire to own. The small Caddy SUV RoadTrip posted earlier this week is right on the money to steal market share from the incredibly successful Lexus RX. And cars like the vastly improved Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu show that GM can actually make a viable alternative to the Camry and Accord. I personally wouldn't touch any of them with a 10' pole, but I can certainly appreciate what they can do for the bottom line at GM.

[gcarter]

I think I agree about the Volt.
I just read about the new Tesla sedan, decent range, seating for 4/5, great performance, and a price tag over $100K!
I think this is a reasonable price point for something that was designed from the ground up to utilize current electric car technology w/7000 Li Poly cells and state of the art power management.
So if the Tesla is the "benchmark" for electric car expectations, and they (Tesla) must be profitable to stay in existance, then it seems reasonable that the Volt is a money loser.

[zelatore]

Tesla is an interesting example.

First, they're building the cars in Silicon Valley. I can understand doing the engineering here since this is one of the world's highest concentrations of techno-geeks. But they are actually doing the manufacturing here as well. While I applaud them for sticking it out here in their home town, this is one of the most expensive places to live and work. So even with the huge incentives they were given to build the factory, they still have to pay a workforce, taxes, etc at a much higher rate than if they'd built the factory in Nevada or somewhere in the south. This is surely adding to the base price on the car(s).

Right now they've only got the roadster in production at $100K. And that's based off a Lotus, so they didn't have to do all the engineering from scratch. They have shown prototypes of a sedan/4-door hatch that they plan to have in production in 2 years at $50K. It's quite a good looking car in profile (the front grill could use a little refining), but despite the functionality of a hatch I wonder if it won't hurt it's sales in the US as for some reason we seem to equate 'hatch' with 'cheap'.

Another interesting EV start-up is Fiskar. They got their start doing custom rebodies of high end BMW and Mercedes cars, but now they're going into production with a high end series-hybrid sedan called the Karma. The styling is a bit over the top, but that's where their roots lay. They are taking deposit now on the $90K sedan for delivery next year. They're also planning a convertible which I believe they are also taking deposits on but I'm not sure of the planned launch date.

Tesla has proven viable so far with about 250 cars delivered but has yet to prove they can truly go it alone with a whole in-house product. Fiskar hasn't delivered anything but promises and show cars yet but should be close to production. I have more faith in Tesla both from the standpoint of a proven track record and the fact that they are aiming to bring a higher volume main-stream sedan to market.

Not long ago the standard silicon valley business plan was to come up with a great idea, launch production on venture capital, and get yourself bought-out for huge $$$ by a large established company like a Microsoft or Cisco. Given the state of the automotive economy, I don't think anybody in Detroit has the resources to just buy up Tesla but it would have been a great way for them to springboard into the EV market with a solid, developed platform. It also would solve a giant logistical problem for Tesla by providing a ready made distribution network.

I wish them well. The cars look good and perform well. I still don't know about the viability of a pure electric in many markets, but they are claiming good range and quick charging from standard outlets which will help to make them usable cars instead of just image items like most EVs. Sort of the Anti-Prius, which really is just an image car itself. Just a different image.

Of course while everybody is falling all over themselves to tell us EVs are the environmental saviors of the auto industry and the country as a whole because of how they cut our need for oil, they forget to mention the environmental impact of all those batteries. Last time I checked, batteries weren't grown on a farm in Iowa. Battery plants are some pretty nasty places, at least environmentally. And then you have to dispose of them at the end of their life-cycle. I suppose if they can be successfully recycled you can make solve that part of the equation but they've still got to come from somewhere.

Kinda reminds me of the CFL light bulb movement.

[zelatore]

Since it's 4:30 in the morning our here on the Left Coast, I'm going to try to go back to sleep now....

[mattyboy]

change everyone wants change
change is never easy nor is it ever good especially change for the sake of change

the shape of change


you guys are funny AMC :rlol: :kyle:

didn't Mr Mom work in the car business 401 402 what ever it takes :tongue:

[boxy]

Wanna a beer?
It's 7:00 in the morning!
Scotch?

[mattyboy]

that's it i don't no why no one saw it before

we need Michael keaton

he did it once he can do it again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_gLOUbQZgk

[mattyboy]

Wanna a beer?
It's 7:00 in the morning!
Beer?


soon as i get done feeding the baby chili ;)

[boxy]

I was an AMC mechanic for quite a few years and they had some cool products. The Gremlin made a sweet hot rod with the long hood/short deck, The AMX was cool as was the Rebel "The Machine". Don't forget that AMC owned Jeep for many years and made lots of cool CJ-5s, CJ-7s and Grand Cherokees. Little AMC also built some good engines of their own including the 304, a very durable straight six and a 40something big block.

Carl, how can you be a mechanic for AMC for "quite a few years" and not know the engine sizes or classifications?
That's because Carl was mainly working on the 420 ..... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gif

[BUIZILLA]

That's because Carl was mainly working on the 420 ..... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gif the only problem with that engine was it got smaller the longer it stayed running... :biggrin.:

[boxy]

that's it i don't no why no one saw it before
we need Michael keaton
he did it once he can do it again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_gLOUbQZgk

I forgot all about that movie...... :D :D :D

[mattyboy]

I forgot all about that movie[/IMG]

I rike you ,you make me raugh :rlol:

[Donziweasel]

That's because Carl was mainly working on the 420 .....

LMAO!!!!!:biggrin.:

[Carl C]

That's because Carl was mainly working on the 420 ..... http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gifhttp://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Smoking/smoking-030.gif

Really it is because I worked at Rose AMC, Jeep aka Rose AMC, Jeep & Renault aka Rose Jeep - Eagle between about 1981 and 1993. The cars mentioned were all before those years so I mainly worked on Jeeps, AMC Spirits, Eagles, Concords, Renault LeCars, Fuegos, Alliances and others that I will think of as soon as I submit this. Busy at work right now. The Classic AMC cars did not show up very often at the dealership by 1981. It is the Renaults that were junk and that is probably why they are no longer sold in the United States.

[roadtrip se]

Really it is because I worked at Rose AMC, Jeep aka Rose AMC, Jeep & Renault aka Rose Jeep - Eagle between about 1981 and 1993. The cars mentioned were all before those years so I mainly worked on Jeeps, AMC Spirits, Eagles, Renault LeCars, Fieros, Alliances and others that I will think of as soon as I submit this. Busy at work right now. The Classic AMC cars did not show up very often at the dealership by 1981. It is the Renaults that were junk and that is probably why they are no longer sold in the United States.

Um, no. POC, yes. Something about the instant weenie roast that got people's attention, although the 2M6 was a nice ar, but by then it was too late.

I would put your Renault is junk comment in the same outdated hopper as the Fiat one, anybody heard of Nissan? There is a lot more sharing there than most people realize...

[Carl C]

Um, no. POC, yes. Something about the instant weenie roast that got people's attention, although the 2M6 was a nice ar, but by then it was too late.

I would put your Renault is junk comment in the same outdated hopper as the Fiat one, anybody heard of Nissan? There is a lot more sharing there than most people realize...

Well I am speaking from experience. The Lecar would eat up rear main seals and transmission blocking rings (syncros). Not cheap repairs. The Eagle Premier was actually designed and built by renault. It had a transaxle that was god for about 50,000 miles if you didn't drive it hard. That was a $3,000 or so repair as the factory provided no service parts or training for it. The only fix was to replace it with a factory rebuilt unit. A lot of peeps just junked the cars. I felt bad for them, this was not a bad looking or driving car. It just had a major engineering flaw. The Fuego may well have been the best of the bunch but the turbos did not live long and the rear hatch would shatter if not closed gently. Maybe they build a better product now but their reputation has been badly hurt here and for good reason. The Renault Alliance was a decent value but was a 100,000 mile car if lucky. MotorTrend has gone on record saying that it was a mistake naming it Car of the Year. I could discuss this more but gotta go, getting busy and peeps are prolly stealing stuff...

[Ghost]

Wanna a beer?

Beer?! It's 7:00 in the morning!

Scotch?

[roadtrip se]

Make mine bourbon... I tried a single barrel from Four Roses last night that was darn right tasty.

Carl, when was the last Alliance or Fiero built for that matter?

[Carl C]

Make mine bourbon... I tried a single barrel from Four Roses last night that was darn right tasty.

Carl, when was the last Alliance or Fiero built for that matter?

Quite a while ago. I don't know know what Renault makes now but lets leave them in Europe...Please! I am just discussing the AMC years and the demise of AMC, not sure how this thread ended up there. BTW it was my boss who did the 4:20 thing. I wouldn't get high at work, too easy to f*** something up. I've never inhaled anyway............................................ ...............hehe

[zelatore]

Hey Carl, check if I'm right here -

Would this be the 'Fiero' you are talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Fuego

'Cause I can't see how the other Fiero would play at an AMC dealer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Fiero

[Carl C]

Hey Carl, check if I'm right here -

Would this be the 'Fiero' you are talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Fuego

'Cause I can't see how the other Fiero would play at an AMC dealer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Fiero

Yes, for sure, my bad..Trying to type and run my store at the same time. Fiero:rolleyes: now you will all think it's 4:20 here in Michigan.

Renault Fuego!

[boxy]

Scotch?

You are correct Sir, I was thinking Scotch and typed beer .....

"Bye Honey, have a nice day, if I'm not here, I'll be at the gym or the gun club"

[Ghost]

You are correct Sir, I was thinking Scotch and typed beer .....

"Bye Honey, have a nice day, if I'm not here, I'll be at the gym or the gun club"


I was right with you all the way. I just thought somehow in the key-punching process you'd accidentally dropped in an extra beer. And an extra beer is always appreciated. Beer.

[motorcity]

My ride, when I worked at Bill Fox AMC, in Rochester Mi.


Carl, did you work for a time at Bill Fox, The was a fellow mechanic, named Carl that was from Rose. He cam to Fox and work for a time there.

[mattyboy]

motorcity

nice very nice

[Carl C]

My ride, when I worked at Bill Fox AMC, in Rochester Mi.


Carl, did you work for a time at Bill Fox, The was a fellow mechanic, named Carl that was from Rose. He cam to Fox and work for a time there.

It's a small world after all! Yes, that was me. Got mad at my boss and decided to try a change so went to Bill Fox for about a year. As you know Bill ran "Bill Fox Chevrolet" and his son, Mike, ran the Jeep, Eagle dealership. In case you didn't know, Mike died in a motorcycle crash a few years ago. He lived fast and died young. I will never forget Mike Fox since he took me for a ride in my first off-shore boat. He had one of the original 33' Fountain Executioners. It could hit 70 mph! I remember him saying "now you can tell everyone that you've gone 70 in a boat!" RIP Michael.

Who are you? If you don't want to say that is OK. There were several of us mechanics on that boat ride. Maybe you were there?

[motorcity]

I was on the ride, I'm Tony. I ran into Rick, if you remeber him, he was in parts. He works at the Napa on Walton & Dixe Hwy. He told me Mike was killed. I remember when you flipped your quad and broke your arm.

I've been ghosting here for a while now, in hopes of someday buying a Donzi.

[Carl C]

I was on the ride, I'm Tony. I ran into Rick, if you remeber him, he was in parts. He works at the Napa on Walton & Dixe Hwy. He told me Mike was killed. I remember when you flipped your quad and broke your arm.

I've been ghosting here for a while now, in hopes of someday buying a Donzi.

Cool. I remember you and Rick. I walked away from wrenching in 1993 and never looked back. It was a bad occupation choice.

[motorcity]

I left it in 88. It was a crappy way to earn a living, the only people making the money was the dealership owners, at the cost of screwing their employee's. I got into contract engineering, mostly at GM, and we know how that went. I'm now looking for a new career.

[HallJ]

My ride, when I worked at Bill Fox AMC, in Rochester Mi.


Carl, did you work for a time at Bill Fox, The was a fellow mechanic, named Carl that was from Rose. He cam to Fox and work for a time there.

Big Bad Green option?

AMC's, AKA Kelvinators. The Ambassador was known as the "Kenosha Cadililac"

Jeff

[motorcity]

Yes, Big Bad Green.

[yeller]

AMC's, AKA Kelvinators.

LOL! I almost bought a Kelvinator fridge years back just because it was related to AMC.

Matty, don't try to understand.....AMC guys are.....uh......different. :biggrin:

[gcarter]

One comment about Nash's.....
My dad had a '52 or so Ambassador Super. Absolutely HUGE car. The size of a limo inside. Very comfortable ride. Pretty dependable too.
One design flaw though, the exhaust "manifold" consisted of a piece of exhaust pipe, perhaps 50% thicker than normal clamped in three places to three semicircular, concave shapes cast into the head. Because of the shape and the compressability of the pipe, they required no gasket. They ALWAYS leaked and was very irritating.

[BUIZILLA]

REPORT: General Motors to kill Pontiac on Monday (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/23/report-general-motors-to-kill-pontiac-monday/)

sure hope not, but other than the G8-GT they have nothing for me...