PDA

View Full Version : Engine Dimensions???



roadtrip se
04-08-2009, 01:51 PM
So, time to start putting some real research into the reincarnation of the Flowerpot.
The boat has had a 502MPI and a 500HP in it since new. Everything fits fine.

Jill put a lifetime moratorium on anything with a blower on it, and it is one of the few rules she seems to have little tolerance for amending, no matter how many times I have brought the topic up.

I do have the option of "refreshing" the 500, for which I have a couple of quotes from reputable engine houses to do.

The other options:

1) Ilmor v10. I have drawings showing this beast being about 3 and 3/16 inches deeper in the oil pan than the 525 and about the same width, and deck height.

2) 540? How does it compare to the 502 size-wise? Anybody know the differences on dimensions?

3) 572? Same question?

Looking for real info from real people who know...

VetteLT193
04-08-2009, 02:07 PM
The Big Block is a Big Block. Small Block a Small Block.

Externally a 454, 502, 540, 572 etc. are all the same. it's the bore and stroke internally that changes.

That is also why the exhaust, accessories, etc. are all the same.

VetteLT193
04-08-2009, 02:13 PM
I'll caveat my last post with a couple things.

I'm talking block only. you can get all kinds of crap attached to the block. an EFI boat is not going to be the same height as a carbed boat for example.

The newest of the new blocks are totally different. so, when I say "small block" I'm talking about a Gen 1 or Gen 2 engine, which takes us all the way up to the late 90's in the automotive world. bit later in the marine world.

BBC is a bit different, 496 is a 'new' Big block. 502 is old.

Generally if the firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 it's old. the new stuff tends to have 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3 in my experience, but I'm honestly not sure on the 496. and this also doesn't count any aftermarket firing order changes.

Complicated enough now? OOF. I liked it more when they were all the same.

mattyboy
04-08-2009, 02:17 PM
ilmor indy

BUIZILLA
04-08-2009, 02:21 PM
572 is a tall deck...

not much, but it's taller..

mounts are the same location as what you have now..

with that said, i'm dying for someone to do a non-blown EFI 572...

eazy 650-670 hp on pump gas

should put you in the high 80's to low 90's with a shorty..

VetteLT193
04-08-2009, 02:29 PM
572 is a tall deck...

not much, but it's taller..

mounts are the same location as what you have now..

with that said, i'm dying for someone to do a non-blown EFI 572...

eazy 650-670 hp on pump gas

should put you in the high 80's to low 90's with a shorty..

whoops, forgot about tall deck.

VetteLT193
04-08-2009, 02:33 PM
572 is a tall deck...

mounts are the same location as what you have now..

with that said, i'm dying for someone to do a non-blown EFI 572...

eazy 650-670 hp on pump gas

should put you in the high 80's to low 90's with a shorty..

http://www.dereberyperformancemarine.com/Raptor_Engines.htm

bottom of the page, 572 EFI 725 HP... no blower

roadtrip se
04-08-2009, 02:46 PM
The Ilmor is 3.5 inches longer. Then there is the setback change due to the CG weight differences. Challenging, but it has been done, and done right...

Indy opens up the NXT and Extreme SC world. Maybe... but the $$$ would have to become a factor.

The 572 looks very interesting. Not a fan of Leon's but that is another discussion for another day. And the EFI is the only way I will go...

So how tall is a tall deck?

BUIZILLA
04-08-2009, 03:05 PM
www.gmperformanceparts.com (http://www.gmperformanceparts.com)

handfulz28
04-08-2009, 04:07 PM
http://www.youngperformancemarine.com/650.htm

More links down the left column. Already has at least one happy Donzi customer on this board.

mrfixxall
04-08-2009, 04:17 PM
540? How does it compare to the 502 size-wise? Anybody know the differences on dimensions?


Same as you have, a 540 would be a good upgrage..you already have a good base block and if you bore it to a 4.500 bore and install a good 4.250 stroke crank,6.385 h beam rod and a set of 23cc srp or j&e dome piston, i also have custom isky cam grind with mild cylinder head porting will give you 620 hp..

of coarse you will need to program you pcm for thease mods but well worth the 4k-5k invested

CHACHI
04-08-2009, 04:33 PM
whoops, forgot about tall deck.

People have built a 'short deck" 540 which would keep exhaust in the same place.

Tall deck 540's move the exhaust up and out.

Ken

RickSE
04-08-2009, 05:12 PM
Or you could just 1-up the Ilmor and go to an all aluminum BBC like I'm gonna do when my 500 wears out. GM DRCE or Donovan Block.

BigGrizzly
04-08-2009, 05:34 PM
I am slanted towards builders so I won't enter it just to say 540 come in short and tall deck. So good luck. seems $$$ get real big after 525 hp.

Mr X
04-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Ilmor Indy! Nothing wolud make me happier than to share what I did
with someone that would really do it. I could jump start you MONTHS ahead
of what I had to learn the hard way.

So how is an aluminum BBC a 1 up on an ILMOR? (no E on the end by the way)
I would think it would still leave ya 2 down....:biggrin.:

The Hedgehog
04-08-2009, 06:25 PM
It depends on what you want to spent. I have a short deck 540 and it was a complete bolt in. That is going to be your bang for the buck. You can get 650+ hp EFI easy. More if you want to go up in compression. Set up your XR right and there you go.

I would really like to know if the tall deck fits. Eddie makes a 598 tall deck that makes 750hp. It will have the same external dimensions as the 572. His carb version idles like and EFI. He does EFI too. I have a friend that has a pair of those and they just whippled it for 1,000 hp. I have driven the boat and it handles like a 500 EFI around the dock.

RickSE
04-08-2009, 06:46 PM
...So how is an aluminum BBC a 1 up on an ILMOR? (no E on the end by the way)...:

The aluminum BBC puts you in the same weight range as the Ilmor, loosing about 230lbs off a cast iron BBC and there are several "off the shelf" N/A BBC's out there making 800-1000 HP on 93-octane. Less moving parts in the V-8 and better torque with a big bore V-8 at a lower RPM.

MOP
04-08-2009, 08:10 PM
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/92/Drag_Racing/post/1413387/749-CU-IN-ALUMINUM-BBC-DRAG-RACE-ENGINE.html

roadtrip se
04-08-2009, 08:37 PM
Fixall and Hedge Hog, the stroker is what I have been looking at. But $4-5K is just the deposit for a reputable builder to do the work. Especially if you write the parts list. Nobody seems really excited about the ECM calibration tuning grind either. I am not done here yet, it is the best bang for the buck, but options are options. I am going to talk to Eddie, since he is soon to become my local builder.

Ted, I was hoping you would say that. I really wish you were going to make the AOTH this year, then the decision of what to do next would be easy... At least this time, it wouldn't be a surprise. Whole different game in this leaque than just swapping a 502 out, and I know it. I do plan to do the boat right, whatever the engne option turns out to be.

All the options are on the table, but this thing is going to look like a red 22 Classic when it is all over, which means it has to go under the hood!

The Hedgehog
04-08-2009, 09:20 PM
The aluminum BBC puts you in the same weight range as the Ilmor, loosing about 230lbs off a cast iron BBC and there are several "off the shelf" N/A BBC's out there making 800-1000 HP on 93-octane. Less moving parts in the V-8 and better torque with a big bore V-8 at a lower RPM.

I agree with the moving parts thing.

I don't know of many "off the shelf" NA's that can make 1,000hp. Anything over 750-800 NA is swinging some pretty exotic stuff.

The Hedgehog
04-08-2009, 09:23 PM
Fixall and Hedge Hog, the stroker is what I have been looking at. But $4-5K is just the deposit for a reputable builder to do the work. Especially if you write the parts list. Nobody seems really excited about the ECM calibration tuning grind either. I am not done here yet, it is the best bang for the buck, but options are options. I am going to talk to Eddie, since he is soon to become my local builder.
Ted, I was hoping you would say that. I really wish you were going to make the AOTH this year, then the decision of what to do next would be easy... At least this time, it wouldn't be a surprise. Whole different game in this leaque than just swapping a 502 out, and I know it. I do plan to do the boat right, whatever the engne option turns out to be.
All the options are on the table, but this thing is going to look like a red 22 Classic when it is all over, which means it has to go under the hood!

You have a good handle on things as I figured. You are looking at several cool options and it will be fun to see this come together.

RickSE
04-08-2009, 11:41 PM
...I don't know of many "off the shelf" NA's that can make 1,000hp. Anything over 750-800 NA is swinging some pretty exotic stuff.

Sonny's EFI 802 ci aluminum BBC makes 1,417 HP & 1,140 ft-lbs on 89-octane fuel. You gotta go big and reverse cool the heads. A boat motor running reverse cooling with an endless supply of cool lake water should be able to make good power on crappy fuel.

I wouldn't try to reuse the 500's EFI if you go to bigger cubes, start fresh.

The Hedgehog
04-09-2009, 03:43 AM
Sonny's EFI 802 ci aluminum BBC makes 1,417 HP & 1,140 ft-lbs on 89-octane fuel. You gotta go big and reverse cool the heads. A boat motor running reverse cooling with an endless supply of cool lake water should be able to make good power on crappy fuel.
I wouldn't try to reuse the 500's EFI if you go to bigger cubes, start fresh.

I would not exactly call that "off the shelf." Sure, you can buy the parts and monster blocks, huge cams and big chief heads are a great way to make big N/A power but you will see some BIG prices when you shop for parts. Your exhaust alone will cost at least $6k before you have to get custom tails fabricated. You may very well be at $10k by the time you get the exhaust done. I would consider anything beyond the typical tall deck kind of exotic.

Not to mention how hard it would be to shoehorn 800 CI, big heads, a custom built manifold and induction system for that type of beast into a classic. Remember, we are talking about putting one of these in a 22.

Grizz's son makes some huge N/A power and a nice looking setup. Maybe he can comment on some of those parts. I will be that Garry has some serious proprietary time involved in set up and tuning his recipe. You don't just slap a bunch of those parts together out of a box, stick it on the dyno and go pull 1,000 hp one afternoon.

Get much beyond 750 hp NA and the prices go up big time.

The 500 EFI platform if you want to keep it all looking the same but you will run into a wall around 620hp.

Mr X
04-09-2009, 05:30 AM
What about an "off the shelf" turbine.....
much lighter, and only 3 or 4 moving parts.
Now THAT is a "1 up"

mattyboy
04-09-2009, 06:26 AM
What about an "off the shelf" turbine.....
much lighter, and only 3 or 4 moving parts.
Now THAT is a "1 up"
you just can't back in to the boathouse anymore :tongue: Todd that would put new meaning to "SE" the smoker edition ;)

The Hedgehog
04-09-2009, 07:29 AM
What about an "off the shelf" turbine.....
much lighter, and only 3 or 4 moving parts.
Now THAT is a "1 up"

Nice! That with a big set of tabs and an arneson ought to really get the discussion going!

Good call.:pimp:

Mr X
04-09-2009, 07:46 AM
Funny thing is, I am serious......it will be my next insane project! :eek:

mattyboy
04-09-2009, 07:49 AM
i knew you were ;)

Air 22
04-09-2009, 08:04 AM
Funny thing is, I am serious......it will be my next insane project! :eek:
Ted...:worthy:SWEET:biggrin.:...I'd be happy to help ya with that:thumbsup:...I have 7000hrs jet engine operational experience...:kingme:

mrfixxall
04-09-2009, 09:16 AM
Pro,charge,it, program pcm DONE..:biggrin.:

you have a good steel crank in the motor,h-beam rods if its a 525,which is good for a 1000ponys..

ITTLFLI
04-09-2009, 09:54 AM
I know Jill has banned blowers but if I recall correctly you were using a certain mechanic at the time that had a pretty good rep at blowing up supercharged engines! The EFI has really helped reliablity. My recommendations are:

1) turn 500efi into 540efi
2)whipple IT!

Both will bolt right in and clear under the "hood"....er hatch...

:yes:

Quit smacking your lips and do somethin about it would ya? ;)

BigGrizzly
04-09-2009, 09:57 AM
Let me jump in here. First Procharge is out because Jill said so. It would take an act of God to change that so nuff said on that subject. Next The Ilmor moving parts thing vs the aluminum BBC thing. When a Al BBC goes a lot of stuff happens in a hurry. The only thing is replacement cost may be up on the ILMOR. Now coming from a multi cylinder corporation I can say that if done right the Multi is safer. Just last week There was a twin turbo just finished at Garry's and it put out 1,800+ HP and was still going, I forgot to look at the torque but it was real close to the HP. The dam thing also idled. The owner is a Computer freak and had blown it up 6 times before so now he is going to leave the computer stuff up to the pros. He had more in the engine then the Viper it came out of. Now for the 540 thing I have seen the na pump out 735 with the same torque on 87 octane. there is a 800HP version that runs on 93. Both these will bolt directly in to Todd's boat and have been dynoed with the elbow tops that Todd has. The 572 is a little more torque and power, at this point the drive really becomes an issue. I have seen several grenade d number 6 drives and a twisted stern power shaft. At this point You can go bling with the Ilmor and $$$$. OR bolt in with the 540. I personally would rule out the 572. It gets mighty thirsty.:biggrin::yes::yes: I have not gone 100 mph in a 22 and I have no wish to. I know people who have and have no wish to do it again. I don't want to hit a rogue wave, a jet ski or a semi submerged obstetrical. Lets not be a statistic. besides Tod asked for suggestions he got them and he will make his own calculated decision, as he always does. He wants to build a boat once and not work on it. If I had unlimited funds I mite do a Ilmor, just because that is what I do-something different. If I did it, the only thing that would be left Ilmor would be the Valve covers.

Air 22
04-09-2009, 10:02 AM
Tripper...u could always "freshen-up" the POT with fertilizer from AZ Speed N Marine.Send them ur intake and have the ECM reprogramed etc.. put it all back together freshend up and "looking stock" :) u go Miracle Grow:)

BigGrizzly
04-09-2009, 10:08 AM
I would not go the AZ route, personal opinion. If Todd is going to do it then DO IT no bandages. As for ITLFLI, yes a lot has changed since Todd's experience, but this is one of the only things Jill has decreed ed, so be it.:yes: Trust me she knows my boat and the reliability. and has seen the others too.

undertaker
04-09-2009, 10:50 AM
I know Jill has banned blowers but if I recall correctly you were using a certain mechanic at the time that had a pretty good rep at blowing up supercharged engines! The EFI has really helped reliablity. My recommendations are:
1) turn 500efi into 540efi
2)whipple IT!
Both will bolt right in and clear under the "hood"....er hatch...
:yes:
Quit smacking your lips and do somethin about it would ya? ;)


Well said......especially the part about quit smacking your lips:biggrin.::biggrin.::rlol::outtahere:

hot shot
04-09-2009, 11:42 AM
RT The deck on a tall block is .400 taller FYI Talk to ya soon

roadtrip se
04-09-2009, 12:51 PM
Quit smacking your lips and do somethin about it would ya? ;)

Byron has got a point, but then again he has been listening to me talk about this for two years.

Just as an FYI, from the moment I got my hands on a 500EFI to the point that it was under the "hood" and the boat completely re-rigged, six weeks elapsed. I started the season with a stock 502 boat and finished it at Eufala with what I have now.

But this is different. The boat needs some structural work after nine years of running hard, most of it with the 500. Not just anybody is going to tear into this thing. I now have access to three really, really good fiberglass houses that know performance boats, after doing a bunch of research.

So the question then becomes fix it or enhance it? I started 2009 going in the direction of fix it, freshen up the 500, and then blow and go at AOTH 9. Then Jill got unemployed. Brakes on...

In the mean time, I have watched some pretty cool stuff done with fiberglass with FarmerTex's Crit and Ted's little project on the opposite extreme. So fix has now become enhance in my mind.

We torture these boats and one of these days one of these things is going to come apart under a high HP load. All of the bitching in the world about cracked stringers does not compare to the disaster that could occur if this happens at one of our rallies.

So yes, I have been learning a bunch. And this motor talk is just what the Doctor ordered. I do want the boat to look just like everyone else's while parked on redboat row, but when out on the water, it will be different.

A safe, but very hard runner, that won't come apart. That is the dream. And rest assured, once it is a go, it is gonna happen.

Your feedback on power plants is very helpful. The abuse is even more appreciated. Keep it coming... Flowerpot Motorsports will be a reality and you all will have some input, as I truly appreciate the knowledge and friendship that is this community.

Tweaked 500, 500 stroked to 540, custom 540, custom 572, custom 600, or yes a 725 Ilmor are all possibilities. I'll leave the turbine
for Ted to try first...

Dam this is fun!!!

Lenny
04-09-2009, 01:20 PM
Leave me IN the loop as to fate of your HP500 in the future.

osur866
04-09-2009, 01:46 PM
Too bad the huffer is out I'd like to see someone try the new ls based supercharged engine with the weight savings Steve

The Hedgehog
04-09-2009, 06:05 PM
Funny thing is, I am serious......it will be my next insane project! :eek:

Now that is completely absurd. I love it! Way over the top

BUIZILLA
04-09-2009, 08:05 PM
1) turn 500efi into 540efi
;)
wayyyyy to logical :shades:

Air 22
04-09-2009, 11:14 PM
http://www.azspeed-marine.com/mapepa.html ....:angel:

BigGrizzly
04-10-2009, 07:30 AM
Hey Air22, how comr you don't have one of them there engines from AZ. BTW there is no comparison between Sterling and AZ and that is a fact. AZ is not a pimple on a horses but compared to Sterling. This is not just my opinion but people who really know what a real engine is all about.:yes::yes::yes:

Air 22
04-10-2009, 08:22 AM
Hey Air22, how comr you don't have one of them there engines from AZ. BTW there is no comparison between Sterling and AZ and that is a fact. AZ is not a pimple on a horses but compared to Sterling. This is not just my opinion but people who really know what a real engine is all about.:yes::yes::yes:


Griz...I wasn't comparing Sterling to AZ..never said that.

Todd helped me out w my 500. I'm just giving him another option for his 500 along with a "freshening up" for a motor he knows. AZ offers some good ideas for his 500. In the end..He will do what he wants:kingme:...but to be clear..I know nothing about "real engines" mine is BLUE and so is Todd's...thats all I know...:pimp:

The Hedgehog
04-10-2009, 08:23 AM
http://www.azspeed-marine.com/mapepa.html ....:angel:

How you used any of there stuff or do you even directly know somone that has?

I do and there are way too many horror stories there. One example: I have a friend in Bama that has a sister motor to mine. Instead of having someone local do his manifold he sent it off to AZM for a few weeks. After about six months of screwing around they finally sent his manifold back. Yes it did finally get extrude honed and yes they compted him for the problems but I would rather get my stuff done on time and pay than wait six months.

Don't get me started on some of their programming blunders.

I would certainly not use them for work and not buy their products with that kind of support.

Air 22
04-10-2009, 08:29 AM
How you used any of there stuff or do you even directly know somone that has?
I do and there are way too many horror stories there. One example: I have a friend in Bama that has a sister motor to mine. Instead of having someone local do his manifold he sent it off to AZM for a few weeks. After about six months of screwing around they finally sent his manifold back. Yes it did finally get extrude honed and yes they compted him for the problems but I would rather get my stuff done on time and pay than wait six months.
Don't get me started on some of their programming blunders.
I would certainly not use them for work and not buy their products with that kind of support.


Hedge...thats a terrible story..thanks for the info...I have NO experience with AZ...only heard good things...guess i'm in the minority...:confused:

The Hedgehog
04-10-2009, 08:32 AM
wayyyyy to logical :shades:

Heck, I think that KE has a kit that gets you there and if you don't want to go that route, most reputable builders can do the same. I know of two that have.

I actually kind of like that idea. Ok, so you are limited to around 620 or so hp with the stock intake. That is pretty good. Paint the heads blue to match the rest and you will have the sleeper 500 EFI:wink: Nobody will be the wiser.

The Hedgehog
04-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Hedge...thats a terrible story..thanks for the info...I have NO experience with AZ...only heard good things...guess i'm in the minority...:confused:

Yes, I had too for a while. I was considering them for extrude honing my stuff but was told about a few stories. Right before that my friend from Bama had sent his off and I got to watch the saga unfold. My whole engine was done before his manifold got back.

After that I did discussed the matter with a number of others and the stories kept coming.

I just thought I would offer that warning.

I don't want Roattrip to have to make a roadtrip to AZ to straighten some stuff out properly. I imagine that he would.

olredalert
04-10-2009, 09:05 AM
------There is probably a whole section over on OSO devoted to Arizona S&M stuff that has gone bad!
------Todd, have you considered giving Tyler Crockett a call??? Theres nobody better and I believe he has several packages that would flip you out.........Bill S

BigGrizzly
04-10-2009, 09:08 AM
Air, I do realize what you said just stirring the pot. One thing you are not dumb or unknowing, you always do the research. It is just that AZ has a lot of smoke and mirrors. It is into the $$$$$ more them the stuff. I to have heard the stories and have been up close and personal to the users. ECU, that did not work etc.

BUIZILLA
04-10-2009, 09:23 AM
I actually kind of like that idea. Ok, so you are limited to around 620 or so hp with the stock intake. this is toooo eazy.... send me the intake, we'll solve that problem pronto.... I have *connections*... just sayin'....

signed, Grandfather sandbagger

widowmaker
04-10-2009, 09:25 AM
I do not have a favorable impression of Arizona Speed and Marine. I've heard far too many stories about people who have been ripped off by that bunch. The worst involved a good friend who used Arizona Speed and Marine for a Bonneville record attempt. He was trying to break 200 mph.

Over several years, he used various versions of a big inch BBC in his 454SS truck. Although he had it lowered, a full belly pan and a wing on the rear, it still had the aerodynamic characteristics of an apartment building. Nonetheless, he poured tens of thousands of dollars into the project and into their coffers. While he, from the outset, realized that his was an outrageous project, he finally acknowledged that he had been "flim flammed" by AZ. His last comments to me regarding the project was that they realized that they had a "rich fish" on the hook and they were going to take advantage of it. To add insult to injury, at the conclusion of the project, they failed to return to him a ton of stuff that he had purchased. A shoddy bunch indeed.

VetteLT193
04-10-2009, 09:36 AM
AZ built their name on quality stuff. but then they seem to have gotten too big. The early stories were all positive, great outcomes, etc. then they got big and went down hill big time.

This is from my Corvette experience.

roadtrip se
04-10-2009, 06:01 PM
Okay, the logical choice is the 500 to 540 conversion. Already have bids from Sterling and Innovation. Bill, I tried calling Tyler a couple of times after seeing a lot of good press on him around this conversion over on OSO. He couldn't be bothered to return my calls.. Bummer..

Oh, and I had heard the stories on AZ Marine. This is one of the problems I have been having with the concept of the conversion route. Not many people can do the ECM tuning properly. Buiz, I take it you have a "connection". The monoblade is an old cheater trick, that isn't really a big deal to execute.

The Sterling 700 EFI profiled in Powerboat looks very, very sweet. I am pretty sure this package is what is driving Connie's new Skater. I will make the call and most likely cry at the price...

Okay, so let's say I risk divorce, and go whipple. What would you guys do to the 500 to get her ready? 225 hours, all stock... I had planned and budgeted for rebuilding it any way...

The Hedgehog
04-10-2009, 06:21 PM
Okay, the logical choice is the 500 to 540 conversion. Already have bids from Sterling and Innovation. Bill, I tried calling Tyler a couple of times after seeing a lot of good press on him around this conversion over on OSO. He couldn't be bothered to return my calls.. Bummer..
Oh, and I had heard the stories on AZ Marine. This is one of the problems I have been having with the concept of the conversion route. Not many people can do the ECM tuning properly. Buiz, I take it you have a "connection". The monoblade is an old cheater trick, that isn't really a big deal to execute.
The Sterling 700 EFI profiled in Powerboat looks very, very sweet. I am pretty sure this package is what is driving Connie's new Skater. I will make the call and most likely cry at the price...
Okay, so let's say I risk divorce, and go whipple. What would you guys do to the 500 to get her ready? 225 hours, all stock... I had planned and budgeted for rebuilding it any way...

Eddie Young has done the 540 EFI thing. He is not the speediest builder but his stuff does not break and he knows how to cal a MEFI.

Set up right the whipple is a dang good option. Before that, I would suggest taking a ride in Tex's Procharged 500 EFI at AOTH. I think you will be impressed. He is slinging north of 800hp and keeps the 500 EFI idle (ok so the big heads add a little bark).

BigGrizzly
04-11-2009, 07:27 AM
It seems funny no one asked me what Garry would do. I do know his 700 regular fuel is in the 20g range for the carb, I don't know about the Mefi price.this is new. However North of 800 is a tad too much. The only thing wipple has going for it is looks, But the air cleaner could be an easier fit. RT what you need to remember id huffers have progressed monumentally in the past 10 years. Actually it is the technicians more then the hardware., Remember my engine has 800 hours on it and the only failures I have had were alt, starter and solenoid, caused by the starter plus the given lower units.BTW, I have a 5 hour old TRS for $2,000:yes:

The Hedgehog
04-11-2009, 07:49 AM
It seems funny no one asked me what Garry would do. I do know his 700 regular fuel is in the 20g range for the carb, I don't know about the Mefi price.this is new. However North of 800 is a tad too much. The only thing wipple has going for it is looks, But the air cleaner could be an easier fit. RT what you need to remember id huffers have progressed monumentally in the past 10 years. Actually it is the technicians more then the hardware., Remember my engine has 800 hours on it and the only failures I have had were alt, starter and solenoid, caused by the starter plus the given lower units.BTW, I have a 5 hour old TRS for $2,000:yes:

I would love to see some of Garry's stuff. I was hoping that your would comment on what he has to do to put one of his BIG motors together.

BigGrizzly
04-11-2009, 08:13 AM
Garry, is some times a different guy. He actually loves blowers on certain applications. His Dad was the first to put a blower drive system on a drag car so long ago Garry does not remember. His Dad was Warren Js mentor. Garry now loves the fuel injected carbs or Bg venturi computer control. This is the best of both worlds.

The Hedgehog
04-11-2009, 09:08 AM
Garry, is some times a different guy. He actually loves blowers on certain applications. His Dad was the first to put a blower drive system on a drag car so long ago Garry does not remember. His Dad was Warren Js mentor. Garry now loves the fuel injected carbs or Bg venturi computer control. This is the best of both worlds.

That is a work of art.

How are you guys coming on your motor?

widowmaker
04-11-2009, 10:10 AM
Todd,
After reviewing the previous posts, I'm satisfied that my suggestions are at the opposite end of the visible spectrum from the masses. These boats, IMHO, are at or approaching their practical limit at anything above 85 mph. This takes into consideration present day circumstances including, but not limited to, the boat itself, crowded waterways, rogue waves, personal water craft and operator's limitations (of which I have several), etc. I think that at 85 mph, these boats are faster than probably 98% of all the boats on any given body of water. Crafting a combination that will go over 90 mph will give you a boat that is faster than probably 99% of all those boats. I equate this to owning a handgun chambered for a .700 Nitro Express cartridge. Sure, it's more powerful than almost anything else, but who wants to shoot it more than once?

I have no present day plans to replace the engine in my boat. I think that should the need arise, I will go in an entirely different direction. Why not build a "big one." I'm talking about a 4 1/2" bore, 4 3/4" stroke, 608 inch motor with good heads, moderate compression and something around a 900 to 1000 cfm dominator carb. A "Godzilla" motor. This engine could easily be taylored to burn any fuel from turpentine or pine knots to premium. Correctly match it with 30-31" inch prop. Spin it to around 5000 rpm and run it at that speed all day long. An engine such as this would easily produce over 675 hp and tons of torque. With a slip calculation of something between 14 and 16% you can easily reach the mid 80s. Set your rev limiter to 5300 rpms and when the urge becomes uncontrolable, take your Nitro Express out of the sock drawer, turn 5200 rpms and approach 90 mph.

I have learned a great deal from the views and opinions of the membership on this forum. I expect that I will be able to learn more from possible responses to my thinking as expressed here. I look forward to seeing all your guys at Cumberland.

Ted Cummings

Air 22
04-11-2009, 04:55 PM
Ted...Would the 608c.i. engine you describe fit under a stock 22 engine hatch?..ie no scoops etc?

Would the cam required in such a moster engine have any reversion problems? and allow for reasonable eng idle around docks etc?

Sounds interesting....:pimp:

widowmaker
04-11-2009, 08:33 PM
Ted...Would the 608c.i. engine you describe fit under a stock 22 engine hatch?..ie no scoops etc?

Would the cam required in such a moster engine have any reversion problems? and allow for reasonable eng idle around docks etc?

Sounds interesting....:pimp:

Absolutely, no scoops needed. The cam, if installed in a small engine would be a little lumpy, but in a large engine it would be easily managed. I've got a great engine builder who did my engine. I can put you in touch with him to get further details. Just let me know.

Air 22
04-11-2009, 09:45 PM
Absolutely, no scoops needed. The cam, if installed in a small engine would be a little lumpy, but in a large engine it would be easily managed. I've got a great engine builder who did my engine. I can put you in touch with him to get further details. Just let me know.

I've got a whole 1 hr on my new HP500EFI so far..thus no plans for quite some time...Thanks for the interesting info :)...

It will be fun to follow Todd's quest:biggrin.:...For now... I guess Tripper just needs fertilizer for the flower pot...:angel:

Dr. Dan
04-11-2009, 09:52 PM
Absolutely, no scoops needed. The cam, if installed in a small engine would be a little lumpy, but in a large engine it would be easily managed. I've got a great engine builder who did my engine. I can put you in touch with him to get further details. Just let me know.

:cool!: Ted, what kind of horsepower are you getting with your package... I love your boat it reminds me of mine. Looking forward to running with you in Kentucky.

Danny :biggrin.:

Air 22
04-11-2009, 09:58 PM
:cool!: What kind of horsepower are you getting with your package... I love your boat it reminds me of mine. Looking forward to running with you in Kentucky.
Danny :biggrin.:

675HP+ish...see post #63...:rolleyes::biggrin.:

BigGrizzly
04-12-2009, 08:28 AM
It is all about Durability, not just power. As most of you know I de-tuned mine to 690+ for just that reason. I have seem the 572 + cid under hood placement in excess of 900 HP on 93 octane. 540 cid on 87 octane and up to 730 ponies and same torque. For the gluttons there is a 572 above a classic hood with 1,200 HP the menu goes on and on. It all depends on your testosterone level:eek: Just remember Power is easy, durability is the hard part. It is all in the combination. I have seen 5.0 liters with 503 hp at the real wheels and idle. they have enough HP to split the block in half at the crank journals and have done it. Remember there are only a few drives that will take more then 500 hp, and the XR is not one of them. Go the arnie route then other things happen. I know my limitations and the boats limitations but I have a bad habit of pushing the envelope. With all that said, so the public knows I have no intention of building a bigger faster engine except to say I did it. Besides who wantes to go fast in a bow rider:biggrin::biggrin:

roadtrip se
04-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Todd,
After reviewing the previous posts, I'm satisfied that my suggestions are at the opposite end of the visible spectrum from the masses. These boats, IMHO, are at or approaching their practical limit at anything above 85 mph. This takes into consideration present day circumstances including, but not limited to, the boat itself, crowded waterways, rogue waves, personal water craft and operator's limitations (of which I have several), etc. I think that at 85 mph, these boats are faster than probably 98% of all the boats on any given body of water. Crafting a combination that will go over 90 mph will give you a boat that is faster than probably 99% of all those boats. I equate this to owning a handgun chambered for a .700 Nitro Express cartridge. Sure, it's more powerful than almost anything else, but who wants to shoot it more than once?



I completely and totally agree with you. To the annoyance of many here, I am a big proponent of safety and have been for a long time especially in a rally setting, where we run in tight formation. This year at AOTH, everyone will produce a copy of their insurance, everyone will wear a life vest, everyone will utilize a cut-off tether, and everyone will remain sober during the group runs, or you won't run with us. Too much at risk to do otherwise.

On a personal level, I have run 100mph+ v-hulls many times. I understand the concept of running out of hull. As I said earlier here, I intend to put a lot of energy into upgrading the structure of my hull, before I go anywhere with engine upgrades. I have seen what 470Hp can do to a hull over the years.

In addition, I am all about pre-flights before running. The list is long and I am usually one of the last guys in the water at a run, because of it. I get kidded constantly about how long it takes for me to get ready for the water. Yes, the boat always looks good, but there is a lot of other stuff going on before I go to the water. In addition, I replace stuff when it looks worn and I don't try to rehab junk that should go to the scrap heap instead. And I don't buy other folks cast-offs unless it is very fresh cast-offs. I never have understood the concept of trusting some old junk with your life.

When I get out on the water, I run with folks that I know who are predictable, keep a constant line, don't vary their speed dramatically, and keep their distance. If you are a party animal, you aren't going to run with me. There are several here that tend to be the folks that I trust and if you look at a run, we are usually together, because we trust one another. So what is driving this big engine research for me? It's all about what is next.

I have run with Griz in the high 80's many times. It is stable and safe. My boat has run 80-81 for years and does it with complete predictability 95% of the time. When I do this, it will be more about the acceleration and cruise than the top end.
I am ready for the next step. I respect what is involved and won't take it lightly. Ted, there are many others here who are probably groaning about yet another safety speech from me, but I appreciate you bringing it up.

Now, I'm looking for feedback on the Whipple route... What would you do to the 500 to get it ready for this abuse?

BUIZILLA
04-12-2009, 10:40 AM
at this point it would be relevant to ask just what speed range is the final goal? :shark:

widowmaker
04-12-2009, 12:32 PM
Danny,
Maybe my earlier post was somewhat misleading. I am now in the 675 hp range, but not with the 608 c.i. engine that I spoke of. My engine is a bored and stroked 454 presently displacing 496 inches. Last year my engine dynoed 636 hp, but I knew that there was more there. This past winter, I replaced the valve springs, shaved the Brodix heads to gain another point of compression (now 10.7:1),and replaced the camshaft with one that has a bit more duration and overlap. I've experimented with several carburetors at various stages and find that the Barry Grant Demon 850 cfm works best. This latest engine combo dynoed at 648 hp before I replaced the valve springs. The dyno numbers indicated that the engine wanted more, but the springs were beginning to give up at around 5400. Suprisingly, the original springs had 130 lbs. of seat pressure when installed new last year. I think that the new springs are of better quality than the first ones.

The new springs allowed the engine to develop the additional horsepower that the new cam and increased compression gave it. The boat now easily runs 3-4 mph faster with the spring change compared to the speed it reached with the old springs, new camshaft and bumped compression. That is the basis for my estimation that I am now in the 675 hp neighborhood.

While I am not a horse person, I would compare my present 496 inch engine and the 608 engine that I recommended similar to comparing a race horse to a throroughbred draft horse.

I'm sure that all of us are looking forward to Cumberland. Speaking for myself, it reminds me of how I used to look forward to school being out for the summer when I was a kid. My boat was not completed in time for the event last year, but we were able to hitch rides with others.

roadtrip se
04-12-2009, 01:09 PM
at this point it would be relevant to ask just what speed range is the final goal? :shark:

That would mean about another 150 horsies, or 620. Easily done with the 540 conversion, but keep in mind the best part is getting there and cruising power. The top end number is for bragging rights, but I have seen many matches over before they started, because of mid-range power, not top end capability.

This explains why the blue motor boats never seem to have much issue with the 80 mile per hour 496 boats for some reason. We're gone before they get started....

Dr. Dan
04-12-2009, 06:00 PM
:cool!:Wow Ted that is cranking... very very cool, I look forward to seeing your boat in person. I am bringing my Co-Pilot Lizzy with me this year... I will make sure I introduce her to you and Lordes.

Todd.... like before...you go first...I'll follow... I like the idea of EFI and the 540 or whatever... gonna be talking to a few Engine Builders over the next 3 weeks... while Sea Trialing the Pantera...I will let them know what we are after and see what they say.

After I finish with all the Pantera stuff later this month, I want to concentrate on getting some Steering for the King Cobra. I am real impressed with the shear mass and quality components of the Zeiger Systems.

Todd give me a call on Monday and we can talk about what you emailed me about.... and see if we can't get some stuff together prior to AOTH.

No Worries

Danny
Founder of the Mercury Racing - House of Blues :doh:

BigGrizzly
04-13-2009, 08:49 AM
Todd ar you talking about sand bar stability.:rolleyes:. You know I would not do anything to harm Barbara or Jill. As for the Wipple Zim did one and my son Marc did a 7.4mpi. that now belongs to Running Red. He built it safe and capped the RPMs low because that engine is the weak one. Not bad for speed 81 on the 22ZX on its best day that we achieved on Lanier. Now there was a lot left but he left it there for durability. He grew up in a hurry. Funny I grew up just about the same age. In the next three or four years he never worked on it, just maintained it. The unit fit very well, looked good and had almost everything needed in the kit. However dealing with Dustin was a real pain in the arse. I had to back door him to get the ECU right and ended taking the boat to Marc Boos. Marc got three ECUs back from Wipple on three different occasions and one wouldn't even run. Garry has had the same trouble years ago so he got the stuff and did it himself. This is a long story so I will not tell it. It is bad enough that I will not buy a wipple, I will make my own first. BTW this is one of the many stories in the boating industry. This along with the two he sent the late Steve Simond at Donzi that did not work. I know that you will do what is best for you and the supergirl (JILL). Just so you know my engine gets better fuel economy then the stock one except at WFO.

Air 22
04-13-2009, 10:31 AM
Randy...So this a Whipple vs. Procharger question? I've heard that the Procharger option low boost 3-5 psi is a safe choice for eng longevity vs a Whipple with similar psi.? Neither choice has the life of a normally aspirated engine but if ya HAD to choose which one? Whipple has made some advancements in technology recently that I'd like to hear about...:)
Cost wise is it a wash? Durability, reliability with the HP500EFI is the question??
Ur thoughts plz?:)

BigGrizzly
04-13-2009, 04:20 PM
I have done this and the actually result is the procharger is more effluence at the same boost levels. The procharger will give more top end while the wipple will give bottom end grunt. the problen the grunt is too low for the boat application say 1800 to 2500 w3here as the procharger would have better volume up in the 3200->3900 range and keep going. This isw providing you don't have a quad rotor wipple. I feel the procharger/Vortec is more durable up stairs at moderate boost levels. (It is softer on the engine components. I know I will get slamed on this but this is what the numbers show. Check it out percentage wise more wipples go down then Prochargers. Also realise there are more prochargers out then wipples. At the drag races prochargers and Vortec beat more wipples.