How about using these bow lights?

[yeller]

I like the looks of a very clean deck, so when I put my new one on, there'll be no lifting rings, no cockpit snaps, no ski hook, and no external backing plates for the engine hatch rams. I'm using pop-up cleats and a different socket for the rear navigation light. If I could, I'd use the Shelby style vents, but without the hood scoop, I doubt they'd work well for air intake.

So that leaves the bow light. I don't want to use a pop-up, because the look of the "plate" when it is down, seems too big to me.
Is there any functional reason I couldn't use these on a 22C?
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=3277
I emphasized functional, because I know there'll be a lot of personal reasons why they shouldn't be used. :wink:

[gcarter]

Many, if not most, of the Criterions came w/these, or similar, lights.

[MOP]

Seeing them on Poodles Critter I got a chrome on brass set awhile back with the intention of putting them on my 22, the problem I found was the flair of the hull was curved to mount then to be seen properly without some sort of leveling block. They do look good post some shots when you get them in, if you need a set PM me.

Phil

[wrussellw]

I like the looks of a very clean deck, so when I put my new one on, there'll be no lifting rings, no cockpit snaps, no ski hook, and no external backing plates for the engine hatch rams. I'm using pop-up cleats and a different socket for the rear navigation light. If I could, I'd use the Shelby style vents, but without the hood scoop, I doubt they'd work well for air intake.

So that leaves the bow light. I don't want to use a pop-up, because the look of the "plate" when it is down, seems too big to me.
Is there any functional reason I couldn't use these on a 22C?
http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=3277
I emphasized functional, because I know there'll be a lot of personal reasons why they shouldn't be used. :wink:

I went with the clean look and left all the hardware off the deck
Match the stripe color and retractable bow light

[VetteLT193]

where do you want to mount them?

I think you might be able to use them if you mounted them into the windshield somehow.

if you look close in this pic of a Banana that is where they mount them (above the cleat).

http://www.bananaboatco.com/2009PVD-016.jpg

[Ghost]

I considered mounting something like that on mine, similar to the Banana setup. I did a lot of looking and estimating, and was not convinced they'd always be visible through the needed angles (dead ahead in my case), with some of the slower bow-up plowing speeds that it's really easy to get into at night. This is on my Nova 24. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but I'd take a good look at the effects of running angle on visibility.

I really like the Banana setup--subtle, out of the way, and no glare from the nav lights illiminating the bow, where you need to eliminate the ambient light.

[Carl C]

If you are after the clean deck look then use them. It's hard to see that little bow light anyway. It's the big white light in the back that makes you visible. It's hard for me to picture a Classic without lifting rings though but I have thought about making mine non-functional to remove weight since I'll never use them. I like your plan though. There are some really cool Classics being put together now including HotShot's, Mr. X's, Air 22's and old standbys, Roadtrip and Dr. Dan's Blue powered 22s. I hope mine will be a player next year with the customized bow "cuddy" (I hate calling it that!), shorty, full dual ram external steering and new HP525EFI.

Vette, I don't think the windshield location is legal.

[VetteLT193]

Is there something specific about the mounting location that makes them illegal?

Technically the lights can't be mounted under the rub rail because of the vertical height requirement. The only other requirement that I can think of is the white light has to be, I think, 3 feet higher than the nav lights.

[VetteLT193]

did a quick search and found this link, it addresses the lights in the above link exactly. on the 2nd part of it, it talks about the side lights which would be legal as far as I can tell on the sides of the windshield because there is nothing above them or blocking them from view.

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/navlts2.html

[Carl C]

did a quick search and found this link, it addresses the lights in the above link exactly. on the 2nd part of it, it talks about the side lights which would be legal as far as I can tell on the sides of the windshield because there is nothing above them or blocking them from view.

http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/navlts2.html

I think you are right. I did some checking myself. I'm having trouble pasting the link but apparently the side lights do not have to be at the bow, they must be above the rub rail and they must be at a certain minimum level below the stern light. So, Yeller, apparently you cannot mount those lights on the bow below the rub rail.

[BigGrizzly]

Yeller just to confuse you more, Lavorsi makes them in a LED version. As to Georges comment YES all Criterion s came with these lights, because there was a electrically operated optional bow docking light which Pooldel and I have.

[VetteLT193]

Yeller just to confuse you more, Lavorsi makes them in a LED version. As to Georges comment YES all Criterion s came with these lights, because there was a electrically operated optional bow docking light which Pooldel and I have.

The banana pic that I posted has those LED ones. They look GREAT and are really bright... when the light turns on the whole inside of the housing glows.

[Planetwarmer]

You will certainly be able to see the LEDs from across the lake. They use less power too!:cool!: If I were doing what you are doing, I would mount the lights just under the rub rail (3 inches or so) approximately 18 inches to 2 feet back from the bow.


Why do you suppose that they would mount 2 cleats 6 inches apart on the bow of the banana? I don't think it is necessary to have two cleats that close together.:bighug:

[VetteLT193]

You will certainly be able to see the LEDs from across the lake. They use less power too!:cool!: If I were doing what you are doing, I would mount the lights just under the rub rail (3 inches or so) approximately 18 inches to 2 feet back from the bow.

that would look good, but not legal:frown:



Why do you suppose that they would mount 2 cleats 6 inches apart on the bow of the banana? I don't think it is necessary to have two cleats that close together.:bighug:

It comes from bigger boat building. You need 2 cleats at the bow to tie off in a real slip. On that size boat though I have to agree that it isn't necessary... my Minx has one centerline and it's fine:)

[MOP]

You will certainly be able to see the LEDs from across the lake. They use less power too!:cool!: If I were doing what you are doing, I would mount the lights just under the rub rail (3 inches or so) approximately 18 inches to 2 feet back from the bow.

Why do you suppose that they would mount 2 cleats 6 inches apart on the bow of the banana? I don't think it is necessary to have two cleats that close together.:bighug:

The angle below the rail is to severe without leveling blocks, that is why I have a new set on the shelf.


Most every larger boat has dual forward cleats, they need them to be able to tie between docks or pilings without having to load the doo doo out of one cleat with lines.

[Ghost]

I can't speak to the prospect of overloading, but I think dual cleats make tuning the length of the bowlines a LOT more convenient, especially when venturing into an unfamiliar guest slip.

[yeller]

The angle below the rail is to severe without leveling blocks....That's one thing I was concerned about.
Thanks for the info guys. I had no idea that they would be illegal below the rubrail. I'd have to check for sure though, as they may be legal in Canada.

My other thought was using one like in the pic below, but it's battery powered and I'm concerned the battery would be dead when I need it. And I can pretty much guarantee I'd never remember to bring spare batteries. :rolleyes:

[yeller]

I went with the clean look and left all the hardware off the deck
Match the stripe color and retractable bow lightI had thought about painting a pop up light. I've seen one in white, which looks plastic and could easily be painted.

What did you do for engine vents? Any pics?

[Planetwarmer]

You could remove all of the wiring out of a pop-up light and have it powder coated what ever color you want.

[gcarter]

My other thought was using one like in the pic below, but it's battery powered and I'm concerned the battery would be dead when I need it. And I can pretty much guarantee I'd never remember to bring spare batteries. :rolleyes:

I think this is the REAL answer.
Those are really neat!
Just think, you could also use them on your "toon boat.:yes:

[VetteLT193]

I had thought about painting a pop up light. I've seen one in white, which looks plastic and could easily be painted.
What did you do for engine vents? Any pics?

The white one is cheaper, I think $60. the down side is it only comes in standard (non LED) lighting. That is not a big deal for me, but the non LED pop up is larger than the LED version. So, it's a catch 22. you can get the smaller footprint in stainless or a larger, more noticeable one, you can paint.

Personally I'd rather stainless for longevity. My Donzi is 20 years old and all the stainless is still in fantastic shape. I can't say that about the other original surfaces.

I also thought about adding this to my boat, but my bow light is in the front center so this would totally screw up the clearance in the forward junk collector.

http://www.eddiemarine.com/photos/PER-400.jpg

[BUIZILLA]

I'm having trouble pasting the link but apparently the side lights do not have to be at the bow, they must be above the rub rail and they must be at a certain minimum level below the stern light. where can I find these spec's?

[Carl C]

where can I find these spec's?

This is the page I was trying to copy and paste from: http://www.boatus.com/boattech/uscg.htm

[BUIZILLA]

hmmmmm

very interesting..

[VetteLT193]

hmmmmm

very interesting..

This one is really clear, page 6.

http://www.uscgboating.org/recalls/pdfs/BSC70.pdf

It also explains the rules are International, not just U.S.

[Donziweasel]

If I am reading it correctly, it says the red and green light must be 3.3 ft above the hull. Something ain't right.

[VetteLT193]

If I am reading it correctly, it says the red and green light must be 3.3 ft above the hull. Something ain't right.

no, it says the white light must be 3.3 feet above the red/green lights.

[Donziweasel]

Not your link, but Carl's.

It doesn't say it can't be done, just has to have the right degrees of visibility. International law says above rub rail. I consider this for operating in international waters, not US waters.

[VetteLT193]

Not your link, but Carl's.
It doesn't say it can't be done, just has to have the right degrees of visibility. International law says above rub rail. I consider this for operating in international waters, not US waters.

Carl's says the same thing as the rest but backwards. says the red/green has to be 3.3 feet below the masthead light.

[BUIZILLA]

the second USCG document is clear

International - Inland

[VetteLT193]

Not your link, but Carl's.
It doesn't say it can't be done, just has to have the right degrees of visibility. International law says above rub rail. I consider this for operating in international waters, not US waters.

The biggest problem with USCG rules in general is they are nearly impossible to really understand fully. If you read the actual rules, every rule references a bunch of other rules. those other rules reference a bunch of others.

For lighting they have a real simple rule list... we all get that. but that rule references a couple of others. 1 is the list of approved lights. Well, that list references another set of rules / lists under what conditions each light is approved... side mount, forward mount, size of vessel, etc. They actually check different light standards for different boats in both horizontal and vertical lighting.

The rules are like this for everything USCG. You are so confused by the time you are done reading I think people (manufacturers included) just give up and do whatever looks good. So, even though you buy a brand new boat it probably isn't USCG compliant from day 1.

[BUIZILLA]

The biggest problem with USCG rules in general is they are nearly impossible to really understand fully. oh, it's pretty simple to understand.... no forward lighting below the rubrail.. :outtahere:

[mphatc]

Back to the original question about those lights . .
I just bought a set of these for my Magnum 27 and will not use them.
Poor quality . . simply put . .stamped SS, inadequete gasket, and if I install a really bright light bulb I think it'll melt the plastic lens . .
The Magnum's original red and green lights were located midships! So any speed short of full plane would make me invisible by anyone heading towards me, plus my boat is black.
The other realization I've had is that I frequently replace nav. light bulbs, as they seem to fail to often. In my Corsican I can see the bow light on deck when it's on . . and when it fails I know . .this is reassuring.
has anyone tried the new LED light bulb conversions?
FWIW, I am installing the Chrome on brass Perko light on the deck at the bow. For me, this will require moving the forward bow life line end anchor backwards as it went right to the point of the deck.

Mario L.

1969 Corsican
1968 Magnum 27

[VetteLT193]

Back to the original question about those lights . .
I just bought a set of these for my Magnum 27 and will not use them.
Poor quality . . simply put . .stamped SS, inadequete gasket, and if I install a really bright light bulb I think it'll melt the plastic lens . .
The Magnum's original red and green lights were located midships! So any speed short of full plane would make me invisible by anyone heading towards me, plus my boat is black.
The other realization I've had is that I frequently replace nav. light bulbs, as they seem to fail to often. In my Corsican I can see the bow light on deck when it's on . . and when it fails I know . .this is reassuring.
has anyone tried the new LED light bulb conversions?
FWIW, I am installing the Chrome on brass Perko light on the deck at the bow. For me, this will require moving the forward bow life line end anchor backwards as it went right to the point of the deck.
Mario L.
1969 Corsican
1968 Magnum 27

The side mount LED lights on the Banana that I posted are really nice units.

At mid-ships they should still shine forward. in most cases a mid ship mounted setup you are off center by at least a bit so you only see red or green, not both.

[Ghost]

The side mount LED lights on the Banana that I posted are really nice units.

At mid-ships they should still shine forward. in most cases a mid ship mounted setup you are off center by at least a bit so you only see red or green, not both.

Hey Vette, I was thinking about two aspects here here and I wasn't sure if you were addressing one or both. First is whether the light they project out should be visible dead ahead. In pure theory, there might be a strip about 6 feet wide with nothing visible, extending forward to infinity, if each one crisply shines only dead ahead. In reality, the lights stick out from the glass a little on their side mounts, so there is probably a triangular area that can't see them. (A foot in front of the windshield is probably in that triangle. By the time you reach the bow, or a few feet in front, maybe you can see them. Maybe it is further, I don't know.) But I'm with you that most people should at least see one or the other, if not both.

The second aspect has to do with bow rise. I couldn't tell if you had good info on with the Banana setup, meaning you could tell to what extent THAT would block visibility of the bi-color lights in front of the boat. (I concluded it might well be an issue on mine, with a shorter nose than the Banana, so I just settled for putting lights all the way up on the bow.) Did you get a good read on that aspect, or were you just talking about the first question, above?

Thanks,

Mike

EDIT: I just noticed that to illustrate this, one can just look at my current avatar, to the left. You can see that the fiberglass below the windshield, where those sidelights would be mounted, is not visible because the bow is up relative to the camera angle. This becomes a function of bow rise and the height of the helm of other vessels, but mostly bow rise, due to the geometry.

[VetteLT193]

Hey Vette, I was thinking about two aspects here here and I wasn't sure if you were addressing one or both. First is whether the light they project out should be visible dead ahead. In pure theory, there might be a strip about 6 feet wide with nothing visible, extending forward to infinity, if each one crisply shines only dead ahead. In reality, the lights stick out from the glass a little on their side mounts, so there is probably a triangular area that can't see them. (A foot in front of the windshield is probably in that triangle. By the time you reach the bow, or a few feet in front, maybe you can see them. Maybe it is further, I don't know.) But I'm with you that most people should at least see one or the other, if not both.

The second aspect has to do with bow rise. I couldn't tell if you had good info on with the Banana setup, meaning you could tell to what extent THAT would block visibility of the bi-color lights in front of the boat. (I concluded it might well be an issue on mine, with a shorter nose than the Banana, so I just settled for putting lights all the way up on the bow.) Did you get a good read on that aspect, or were you just talking about the first question, above?

Thanks,

Mike

EDIT: I just noticed that to illustrate this, one can just look at my current avatar, to the left. You can see that the fiberglass below the windshield, where those sidelights would be mounted, is not visible because the bow is up relative to the camera angle. This becomes a function of bow rise and the height of the helm of other vessels, but mostly bow rise, due to the geometry.

As far as the side mounted lights and seeing them dead ahead. I haven't ever been on a boat where I couldn't see both lights from the very front of the bow. The Banana is the same way. if you stood on the bow, you can see both sides of anything attached to the windshield because of the depth perception. So that's fine.

I did not see the Banana in the water so I can't comment on the way it sits and the bow lights. but again, with depth perception I doubt it is an issue.

either way, at some point we all just want to be safe and be seen while still looking good. Gotta do our best and go from there.

[BigGrizzly]

As for Melting the lens. well leds are brighter with less heat so lens is not a factoe

[joseph m. hahnl]

I bought a set of those too! I had the same concerns about the gasket being inadequate. Plus cutting holes in the hull is a turn off too! I had no idea that they were illegal.There is a Ski Centurion on my lake that has them. I have no idea if they are stock. Knowing the guy who owns the boat, I would assume they are.I wasn't looking for a the clean look i was looking to put my anchor line through the existing bow light hole with an automatic winch to pull up the line. Great thread saved me a bunch of grief:biggrin:

[mphatc]

Precisely my point . . Bow Rise . . . as described . . I nearly had a head on collision a few years back on Winnipesaukee because I could not see the on coming boat . . cruising at me slowly with it's bow higher than it's running lights ands I was in my 18 Corsican . .a smaller boat, loud, and no way could I have heard an oncoming boat . .

Mount them on the bow!

Mario L.

68 Magnum 27
69 Corsican

[VetteLT193]

As for Melting the lens. well leds are brighter with less heat so lens is not a factoe

The LED's on the banana don't have lenses at all. Although, someone probably makes them with lenses too

[Ghost]

mphatc, as an aside, you didn't by chance buy your Magnum in the last couple years from CT or MA, did you? There was a black 27 up there somewhere that I looked at for a while online, but never traveled up to see. Looked like it might be a good buy.

Mike

[mphatc]

Ghost,

yes I did, I bought the boat in MA last fall . . . in the next few days I'll post a new thread in the Other Boats section on this project . . .with pictures will will make some folks gag!

It will be a hoot ! I can't believe I did this . . .

Mario L.

1968 Magnum 27 $$$$ drain
1969 Corsican running well and wanting me to spend more $$$

[Ghost]

Ghost,

yes I did, I bought the boat in MA last fall . . . in the next few days I'll post a new thread in the Other Boats section on this project . . .with pictures will will make some folks gag!

It will be a hoot ! I can't believe I did this . . .

Mario L.

1968 Magnum 27 $$$$ drain
1969 Corsican running well and wanting me to spend more $$$

Looking forward to it. If it is the black with red stripe, with the new red/black interior, that's the same one I was looking at. Congrats--I can't wait to see it.