Zieger full hydraulic vs add on.....

[Donziweasel]

Alright, I know the difference, the add on utilizes the stock steering cables and ties in with the Merc system. Full hydraulic utilizes a helm pump. Pirce difference is pretty dramatic between the two.

My Critters steering was replaced in 2004 and has less than 30 hours on it. Would the full hydrualic really be that much better than the add on? Just getting ideas for operation Merc Bulldog. Any pros or cons of either system would be apprecited.

[VetteLT193]

I'd rather a full single ram than a half dual ram. that might help make up the $$ difference.

after a ton of research on these systems, what it comes down to is the full system has no slop. cables will always have some slop... it is the nature of the beast.

It also costs a lot more to add the helm onto a half system later than it does to buy it up front.

[MOP]

My thoughts! The main reason for hydraulic steering is drive stabilization, meaning to take any possible side to side play out. That is all handled by the rams not the helm, some will argue but add on will do that part of the job equally as well a full.

Phil

[osur866]

My .02 would be to save up and do a full dual ram system and be done with it. Steve

[fogducker III]

My thoughts! The main reason for hydraulic steering is drive stabilization, meaning to take any possible side to side play out. That is all handled by the rams not the helm, some will argue but add on will do that part of the job equally as well a full.

Phil


Your 100% right MOP, I looked into both before my swap and did a fair bit of research as well as talking to people who are knowledgable, the ram or rams attached to the outdrive are what do the work and keep the unit stable, the "slop" in the helm is the only thing that would be a personal preference. Where it would be a little more challenging is when one is trying to "steer" through a chine walk.........:biggrin.: as discussed with a member here recently.......:wink: For the price difference, I ended up with a Hardin Marine/Mayfair add on system, even got a free drive shower with the purchase from CP Performance............:yes:

[RickSE]

I'd rather a full single ram than a half dual ram. that might help make up the $$ difference...

Ditto.

When I called Latham about adding a second ram onto my Latham single ram system they said, "why do you want to do that?....nothing wrong with a single ram system on a single engine boat". I have almost 200-hours on my single ram without issues.

[zelatore]

Over the winter I put on a full Zieger dual ram system. I don't have enough time on it to say a lot about it, but it is nice. I bought it 'used' (never even taken out of the box) off OSO from a member who posts here occasionally. It's certainly a bit more money, but I figured do it once, do it right, never worry about it again.

Plus the dual rams have a bigger bling factor. :biggrin.:

[osur866]

Over the winter I put on a full Zieger dual ram system. I don't have enough time on it to say a lot about it, but it is nice. I bought it 'used' (never even taken out of the box) off OSO from a member who posts here occasionally. It's certainly a bit more money, but I figured do it once, do it right, never worry about it again.

Plus the dual rams have a bigger bling factor. :biggrin.:
Well said, exactly what I did and really like my Latham system

[gcarter]

The main noticeable difference between single or dual is the number of helm (wheel) turns in the different directions, due to the different displacement on the different sides of the piston.

[fogducker III]

I don't think the question was dual or single....?

I believe the question was FULL hydraulic or add-on, which runs off the existing system and stays with the "rotary" helm system...........:confused:

IMO a single ram at the outdrive, either system, is more than enough unless you go with BIG power, knowing John, go with the dual ram add-on with your current steering and save some $$$ for fuel.........:biggrin.:

[CHACHI]

I have had the Zieger hydraulic system for a year now and love it.
Nice feedback. Took a while to used to the "feel" of a full hydraulic system but after a couple of weekends it feels good.

It is really nice not fighting the wheel in sloppy conditions.

Ken

[zelatore]

I have had the Zieger hydraulic system for a year now and love it.
Nice feedback. Took a while to used to the "feel" of a full hydraulic system but after a couple of weekends it feels good.

It is really nice not fighting the wheel in sloppy conditions.

Ken

It does feel a little weird at first, doesn't it? But there is '0' movement.

BTW, if you install it yourself do pay attention to the torque of the hose end fittings. I hear they're easy to crack. :rolleyes:

[Air 22]

We(Bravo One and I ) installed a Zeiger Full Hydraulic System last April and absolutley love it!:yes: I only wish I'd done it earlier. Bob put in the same system to his boat last July and has had the same positive results.

IMO Hyd Steering of the safest things you can do to boats going over 60-70 mph..In any conditions the steering is ROCK-SOLID...:wink: Zeiger is what Donzi uses and my experience with Zeiger and their Customer Service has been A++ I would recommend them to anyone.

[Donziweasel]

Rick, you have a 500 EFI, right? Single does the job?

Man, now I am really confused.

Latham is out, their prices went up dramatically this winter. Over 5000.00 for a dual hydraulic.

Zieger was recommended as a good quality product for the price. Haven't looked into a Imco or a Hardin.

Monster marine has a full dual hydraulic Zieger for 3,395.00, single full for 2,600.00, dual add on for 2,690.00 and single add on for 2,276.00

Anyone know if Scott at Victory carries this stuff?

[BigGrizzly]

I have an IMCO full system. Here is the advantages. 1) it most and foremost keeps the drive from fishtailing-wagging, 2) it supports the gimbal housing. It is safer then cable power. 3) it tales the stress off the tiller arm, many problems hereIt is not that difficult with out the power in the event the belt breaks. Now single vs dual It is true that in a straight line it may not be different but is an S turn situation it definably is not as stable. The support in the gimbal is one sided and shows after time on big power boats. Now as for the add on well it is not as good as full, but as long as it is dual ram it is just as stable, but chine walk is easier to control with full hydraulic. With single ram the steering is different left to right and is more affected, with trim than dual ram. I have had mine for 8 years without an issue. I will not say nor discuss which brand is better or worse an long as the tam are at the pivot point of the lower unit this meams center of the trim pins. As far as I am concerned all are good units Latham Imco Mayfair, etc. I did IMCO because Garry sells them I got a deal and they fit the TRS like a glove. They almost all use the same helm or a copy of the Char-Lyn, which has been around since dirt. All I am saying is do it right the first time. If you put on the dual ram add on the addition of the full component is easy the next year. One more fact, it does make your boat faster in every single boat I have installed them on, including external on outboards. Any boat over 70 MPH can bennifit and really needs it.

[BUIZILLA]

600hp at altitude is a 70 mph boat

so, what's wrong with single at 70 mph?

[osur866]

I would have gone with the Zeiger system for had it been I got a pretty darn good deal on a Latham system from a former board member. For it had not been for that I would have gotten the Zeiger, I like the Zeiger for two reasons, 1 being the close clearence on our boats with the trim rams and 2 I liked the way the lines are in the transom brackets, Imco also runs the lines thru the transom brackets. However, its darn hard to beat the finish of the Latham system. Steve

[Donziweasel]

600hp at altitude is a 70 mph boat

so, what's wrong with single at 70 mph?

Jim, I should be around 490 hp. I would hope that would push me over 75 at least. Also, that is just stage 1. Stage 2 is a blower with a goal of 800 hp at sea level. Should put me at 630 hp or so up here.

Another thing is when I go to Powell, AOTH, and Mobile, AL, I will have all 600 ponies and after the blower, all 800.

[cvx]

Great thread, just installed IMCO single ram addon system, CVX18 w/alpha SS. Glad to hear everyone likes the hyd. steering, In MN, so won't get to test for a few weeks. Did a lot of research, found IMCO was the only one that offered a close proximity transom mount, 9" from gimbal housing to ram mount. Great customer service, had some issues with the stock Merc. steering actuator. Purchased from Top Notch Perf. Marine in MI,1873.00 drop shipped, also great to work with.

[Pismo]

We(Bravo One and I ) installed a Zeiger Full Hydraulic System last April and absolutley love it!:yes: I only wish I'd done it earlier. Bob put in the same system to his boat last July and has had the same positive results.
IMO Hyd Steering of the safest things you can do to boats going over 60-70 mph..In any conditions the steering is ROCK-SOLID...:wink: Zeiger is what Donzi uses and my experience with Zeiger and their Customer Service has been A++ I would recommend them to anyone.


What size rams did you order for your 22? Thnks

[mjw930]

Single ram is perfectly fine and with the Zeiger system the differential between the push and pull side of the ram is less than some of the older rams with the 1" piston. With the proper helm the difference is less then 1/2 turn on either side.

To add to what Randy said there have been some "issues" with single ram systems on "some" large HP "heavy" boats that spend almost as much time out of the water as in. The forces at play are far more than anything you would probably subject you critter to.

I ran a single ram system for 4 seasons with well over 400 hours on it and we saw absolutely no wear in the gimbal or anywhere else in the transom / drive assembly. That was on an 84 mph 5000 lb boat that usually landed on every other wave offshore :cool: Far more abuse than I think you'll ever subject your critter to.

The driving thing is important too so don't minimize that. Your boat will not be point and shoot at 75 mph, it's gonna take some driving to keep the boat up on top of the keel and the full system will make that much easier to accomplish. That's the reason Randy says full hydraulic boats are ultimately faster than partial hydraulic boats. The full system allows you to actually drive the boat rather than suggest the direction it goes.

Go with the Zeiger single ram full system, you won't regret it.

[Air 22]

What size rams did you order for your 22? Thnks


PISMO...I have the Dual Ram Full Hyd Sys Part# 1002161.

http://www.everettperformance.com/Zeiger_Performance_Marine/Catalog/Drive_Kits.asp

[BlownCrewCab]

I Pieced mine together (single ram full hydraulic) I bought a Imco 5 bolt cap, a Marine machine Cyl, Imco hoses, Seastar 2.4 Helm, I didn't have 2k in the whole thing and it steered perfect (77mph 18' classic) If you don't care about having the Most "High Dollar" or Component matched system, you can do a perfect steering system for minimal cash.

[RickSE]

Rick, you have a 500 EFI, right? Single does the job?...

Yes & Yes. Factory installed single ram Latham with no problems.

My main concern with single ram has been, what will happen if I knock the drive off on Powell at speedl? Dual ram should keep the drive centered and maintain the boat's direction but single ram may swing the drive out and cause the boat to turn hard under decell. My buddy did this on Powell with a single ram, knocked the drive clean off on a rock. He said the boat stayed straight and the steering ram was the only thing keeping the drive from sinking; input shaft sheared off in the gimbal bearing plugging what could have been a big hole. I asked Latham about this but they had no info on what might happen.

Buizz, 470 HP will take you to 70-MPH @ 7,000' elevation, enough to pass cars on the highway that runs adjacent to my local lake. :rlol:

[RedDog]

...
My main concern with single ram has been, what will happen if I knock the drive off on Powell at speed? Dual ram should keep the drive centered and maintain the boat's direction but single ram may swing the drive out and cause the boat to turn hard under decell...

Maybe - maybe not. Too many variables to make that conclusion. If the blow is enough to knock the drive off it probably is also taking the steering rams (1 or more) along with it. Yes 2 is probably better than 1 but it is all hypothetical.

When I do it, I think I will go with a single ram add-on. Better than what I have and sufficient for my low 70s (and particularly since my full throttle runs average about 30 seconds per year - meaning not even every year)

[CHACHI]

I like the Zeiger for two reasons, 1 being the close clearence on our boats with the trim rams and 2 I liked the way the lines are in the transom brackets,
Yes the fitment of the rams for the steering on the transom poses no problems with the rams for the tabs.
You must only have thru transom exhaust. I have switchable exhaust and with the wye pipe, you have to run the lines seperatly from the transom brackets.

[VetteLT193]

Yes & Yes. Factory installed single ram Latham with no problems.
My main concern with single ram has been, what will happen if I knock the drive off on Powell at speedl? Dual ram should keep the drive centered and maintain the boat's direction but single ram may swing the drive out and cause the boat to turn hard under decell. My buddy did this on Powell with a single ram, knocked the drive clean off on a rock. He said the boat stayed straight and the steering ram was the only thing keeping the drive from sinking; input shaft sheared off in the gimbal bearing plugging what could have been a big hole. I asked Latham about this but they had no info on what might happen.
Buizz, 470 HP will take you to 70-MPH @ 7,000' elevation, enough to pass cars on the highway that runs adjacent to my local lake. :rlol:

That is basically the only benefit of dual ram system on our boats. if you totally lose the drive it will still be hanging with a possibility of control VS no control. That's a REALLY big stretch where I boat though and there is a cost benefit to everything.

FWIW my brother has the Latham full single ram with the HP 500 and it is more than enough.

[Lenny]

Great thread, just installed IMCO single ram addon system, CVX18 w/alpha SS. Glad to hear everyone likes the hyd. steering, In MN, so won't get to test for a few weeks. Did a lot of research, found IMCO was the only one that offered a close proximity transom mount, 9" from gimbal housing to ram mount. Great customer service, had some issues with the stock Merc. steering actuator. Purchased from Top Notch Perf. Marine in MI,1873.00 drop shipped, also great to work with.

Any pics of it on your SS ???

Love to see it.

[BigGrizzly]

Sorry Vette, I have to disagree. This is the good better, best thing. At 60 mph it won't matter. At 70 mph it does a little at 80+ it matters a lot. Unlike most I have had the ability to drive and ride in boats from std steering then single inside to single outside to dual out side but with Hydraulic helms. We had a customer who has more dollars then seance. He was told but said he read on line******* etc. I helped with the install of the different out systems. I did this all within a month. This dude changes his mind more then my wife changes shoes. I will not say there was a monumental difference between single and dual, but it was actually noticeable. I also can not say this boat was faster with duals either( other issues were involved). The good part was the helm was installed neatly and logically so the switch was simple. The boat was an 80 mph boat, with good power. NOW for Ricks friends drive catastrophe, There was a whole lot going on at the time I am sure. I was discussing this dual ram thing with a friend and he borough up a good point. That the dual rams also distribute the force of the drive across the transom this is why it saves the gimble. According to several high performance dealers one of the biggest bravo failures is the gimble housing. Don't worry guys most of us will not have this issue.

[The Hedgehog]

I have both systems.

Grizz is right on about the brand thing and Buiz is right about the 70 mph thing.

I put the Hardin single add on on my X and it runs right at 71-72. I could not be happier. It took out all of the chine walk and made a huge difference in the handling. You can't beat it for the price. Drop another grand later to add a helm and it can be converted to full. The Hardin system is nice and upgradeable. So far I have been happy enough with the add on not to drop that extra $1,000. The Hardin product is not second rate by any means. It is a beefy well turned out product.

I bought an IMCO twin ram full system for the 26ZX. I bought that system for around $3k. For that application, I felt that twin ram and full was unquestionably the way to go. I went with it because it was the best deal at the time. It is a great product as well.

[VetteLT193]

Sorry Vette, I have to disagree. This is the good better, best thing. At 60 mph it won't matter. At 70 mph it does a little at 80+ it matters a lot. Unlike most I have had the ability to drive and ride in boats from std steering then single inside to single outside to dual out side but with Hydraulic helms. We had a customer who has more dollars then seance. He was told but said he read on line******* etc. I helped with the install of the different out systems. I did this all within a month. This dude changes his mind more then my wife changes shoes. I will not say there was a monumental difference between single and dual, but it was actually noticeable. I also can not say this boat was faster with duals either( other issues were involved). The good part was the helm was installed neatly and logically so the switch was simple. The boat was an 80 mph boat, with good power. NOW for Ricks friends drive catastrophe, There was a whole lot going on at the time I am sure. I was discussing this dual ram thing with a friend and he borough up a good point. That the dual rams also distribute the force of the drive across the transom this is why it saves the gimble. According to several high performance dealers one of the biggest bravo failures is the gimble housing. Don't worry guys most of us will not have this issue.

Mathematically I can't work out more control with dual ram. I'm not saying it isn't true in real world scenarios, just it doesn't make sense from a straight geometry perspective. It also doesn't work out from a straight math perspective on supporting the gimbal because if the drive were loose on the transom but still connected to the steering there would be room for the drive to twist still.

But, like I already said, straight math Vs. real world isn't always equal and I believe your experience. I'd really like to learn why though.

[RickSE]

...I was discussing this dual ram thing with a friend and he borough up a good point. That the dual rams also distribute the force of the drive across the transom this is why it saves the gimble. ...

This is another issue I was going to bring up. Latham's main concern with Donzi Classics was the fact that the pre 99'(?) boats did not have a fully cored transom and owners need to make sure the transom mounts for the cylinder(s) was in a supported area on the transom. I believe this problem has been resolved though with some of the newer "short" cylinder kits that seem to mount the cylinders where the center coring is on the older boats.

[RickSE]

Mathematically I can't work out more control with dual ram...

Single ram is push-pull on the drive cylinder mount for left to right turns.

Dual ram should be push-push or pull-pull for left to right.

[BigGrizzly]

Well Vette, I don't know why, I can only assume a balanced system is the reason. As for what Ric said, The closer rams put more stress on the center of the transom. The wider stance do a 45 degree vector force that actually pushes away from the center as opposed to straight down. I do not totally agree with the close rams, but do agree the full stern coring is better. Do not under estimate the strength of the 3/8 inch plus of the early Donzi transom. Yes I did put fish plates behind my steering. I also don't beat the boat like you younger pups- the old body ain't like it use to be. I am not as good as I once was but I an as good once as I ever was.:yes::yes:

[The Hedgehog]

Well Vette, I don't know why, I also don't beat the boat like you younger pups- the old body ain't like it use to be. I am not as good as I once was but I an as good once as I ever was.:yes::yes:

I somehow think that you are still not scared these days. Wiser, but not afraid to take someone for an eye watering ride in the Critter.:worthy:

[BigGrizzly]

Actually single and dual are push push. It pushes in both in and out on the cylinder where the dual only pushes out on each ram. The helm is incapable of pull or suction. In a dual there is always more pressure on the push side, the pull side goes back to the pump. That is one reason the duals are better for the gimble. The rams are always pressurized. Put a in line guage on both sides of the rams and turn the wheel. it works sort of like a trim pump.

[roadtrip se]

Install half a system and you get half a system's worth of control.

I have driven both, no comparison.

Reason for two rams in my book, is back-up and more strength.

Save your pennies and just do it right, whatever brand you chose.

[osur866]

I'll probably catch hell for this but, Dual rams just look complete a single looks HALF donelike there's something missing.

[Air 22]

I'll probably catch hell for this but, Dual rams just look complete a single looks HALF donelike there's something missing.
Ur right... there is something missing...:wrench::biggrin.:

[The Hedgehog]

I will get back to what Griz said: Good, better, best.

Here is my take
If you are running in the low 70's, the single is fine. Yes, the twin is prettier but you are probably not necessarily driving an accident machine with a single.

If you ultimately want to get into the 80's, go twin.

You will save a few hundred dollars if you do it all at once.

[BigGrizzly]

Looking at road trips post I was not as dramatic, but the difference was pretty noticeable from one to the other in all three steps. When Honda does customer comparisons, it is a common practice to use the best first then go to the worse. The difference is more noticeably then going from good to better. This is just how the human body works. I have done this so many times and showed dealer this technique and they seemed so surprised. In the steering thing I was not about to go in reverse. As for what osr866 and air said I€ to think it just looks un balanced. BUTTTTTT, if dollars is a concern the one is better then none.

[cvx]

OK, but doesn't size, weight, torque and HP also play a big part in the single, dual,addon or full system also?

[MOP]

A point I will bring up is to look at the steering setups on the bigger boats that run well over 100mph, all that I have seen with twin 1000ish HP have one ram per sid with a tie bar. Does that not equate to a single ram smaller boat running well under 100. I there there is much over kill thinking!!

[RedDog]

... I there there is much over kill thinking!!

I have neither, and have driven with neither, but that is my thought as well

[roadtrip se]

A point I will bring up is to look at the steering setups on the bigger boats that run well over 100mph, all that I have seen with twin 1000ish HP have one ram per sid with a tie bar. Does that not equate to a single ram smaller boat running well under 100. I there there is much over kill thinking!!

Um, no.

Look at it again. Two rams with a tie bar, makes it a two ram system with a tie bar. Both drives are supported from both sides, almost like a single drive with twin rams.

As for overkill, your call I guess, but I like to hedge my bets on the side of caution.

[Air 22]

Todd..sorry to feed the animals....but I'm actually for a 3 RAM System..Tripples(ets) Rule...:kingme:

I bet DW has a few out in JH..:biggrin.:

[The Hedgehog]

A point I will bring up is to look at the steering setups on the bigger boats that run well over 100mph, all that I have seen with twin 1000ish HP have one ram per sid with a tie bar. Does that not equate to a single ram smaller boat running well under 100. I there there is much over kill thinking!!

Yep,

I just don't see any 70 mph boats ripping the gimbal out and spinning out. I am sure it is possible but getting back to what Randy says one more time: Good, better, best.

Yeah, I understand the whole tie rod and trim process.

How many 120 mph outboards do you see with twin rams?

[osur866]

Okay, if its just the $$$$. Think of it this way, after you buy a full hyd. helm, all the hoses, filter, wing plate and misc. parts to do a hyd. sys. the added cost of the second ram is quite minimal, and is worth it for the added insurance, performance and the way it looks IMO. Yes its probaby true single rams are fine for most of our boats but, if John is planning on putting the kinda power he's talking about down the road with a huffer, I wouldn't think of going with anything less than dual. Do it once do it right and be done. My .02 Steve

[The Hedgehog]

Okay, if its just the $$$$. Think of it this way, after you buy a full hyd. helm, all the hoses, filter, wing plate and misc. parts to do a hyd. sys. the added cost of the second ram is quite minimal, and is worth it for the added insurance, performance and the way it looks IMO. Yes its probaby true single rams are fine for most of our boats but, if John is planning on putting the kinda power he's talking about down the road with a huffer, I wouldn't think of going with anything less than dual. Do it once do it right and be done. My .02 Steve

Yep to that too.

I have seen John's operation. I doubt that he will do anything less in the end. After looking at the Lazy P, I would not be surprised if he did not have 4 rams in the end!

[BigGrizzly]

CVX, Actually really big power does have an issue more so then little power boats. Not For what Hedg said No not many 70 mph boats rip gimbles off but many have gimble issues. Remember at the onset of this was the 70 plus boats should have Hydraulic steering. It has much more to do with control then gimbles. If you have an 80+ boat without hydraulic steering I will NOT be your Wing man. The fact is unless you have been there and done that all you really have is an opinion. If you look at this thread the guys with the faster boats and can drive prefer full hydraulic dual ram steering, and talk about looks the others talk about price. Trust me you won't ever catch Road trip with a 80 mph boat without full dual ram hydraulic steering unless he was taking it to have it put on, I wonder why that is.:yes: