F1 2009

[p729lws]

Who do you like in the F1 constructor's championship this year? Should be interseting w/ the new aero package, kenetic energy recovery systems and slick tires.

Is anyone staying up for qualifying for the Australian GP is in a few hours? Got the DVR set just in case I don't make it.

Dan

[BERTRAM BOY]

I picked Ferrari for the constructors championship, but that's easy !!! LOL

Who's going to win the drivers championship?

[zelatore]

My not-Tivo DVR (god I hate this thing!) is recording it now.

Very interesting practice times with the big dogs way down the order, but we'll get a better idea of what's what in about an hour.

While I'm glad to see the guys like Brawn (Honda) and Williams looking good again, I don't really expect them to last. Although I'm a Ferrari/Kimi fan, I think McLaren/Hamilton will be the combo to beat.

I'm also hoping for more from Vettle. Last year he was amazing. Let's see if he can keep it up this year.

BTW, if I ever have a kid and want him to go racing, I'm going to name him Sebastian. Seems like the best way to get a ride in F1 these days.

Also, is it just me or does anybody else think the cars look like a walrus in the head-on views? Or maybe a street sweeper.

And will the diffusers be allowed? Seeing how many cars are having problems with rear grip has been surprising. You sort of expected it with the tiny rear wing, but EVERYBODY (without the trick rear diffuser) is really suffering. The question is come the next race, will those three be forced to go with a 'strict' interpretation of the rules and loose the extra rear downforce, or will every other team have to play catch-up and design their own? Personally, I'd rather see them leave the trick diffusers on and let the big boys scramble to catch up. It would make for a more interesting season while the little dogs have an upper hand.

[zelatore]

Just finished watching quali ... didn't expect that much of a shake-up!

[Ed Donnelly]

OK Spring is officially here:yes:
Forced myself to stay awake,,then,,, fell asleep 10 minutes into it..

Will catch the rerun at 9.30.................Ed

[zelatore]

So.....any of you stick it out to watch the race Saturday night?

Quite interesting. :yes:

[BERTRAM BOY]

I really tried, but I just couldn't do it. I was shocked to to see a Brawn 1-2.

I wonder what the Brawn budget is compared to the previous Honda budget. That would be interesting to know.

[Ed Donnelly]

Most of the people I talked to today said the race was boring..
I enjoyed it.My guy came in second:party::party:
Another late nighter this weekend..Lets see what transpires........Ed

[zelatore]

Good question. They got some money from Virgin, but that's only for 2 races. Not enough to run a team.

And they announced layoffs for 200+ people at the factory.

Hopefully their results can be leveraged to find some sponsorship. I understand Virgin is negotiating to extend the deal, but right now money is the one reason I don't think they can stay at the front of the grid all season.

BTW, my man Vettle looked really good all day. Right up until he crashed... They ended up fining him and worse yet, giving him a 10 spot penalty for the next race. Sorry, what was he supposed to do? Just hand over 2nd to Kubica? I've read that part of the reason he get the penalty is during the post crash interview he didn't play any political games and just forthrightly said 'sorry, I was an idiot' instead of arguing his right to defend the position. Another reason to like the guy in my book.
(this kid WILL win a champoinship one day)

[zelatore]

Ed, more than anyone I'd love to see RB take another win! Not only does he deserve it after all the crap cars he's been driving lately, but he's always fun on the podium - he looks like a 10 year old up there when he wins!

Boring race? I don't think so! Maybe compered to a MotoGP race, but I thought it was great.

[Ed Donnelly]

I,m a big fan of Kubica.. Watched him crash in Montreal and said hes a goner.

Just shows how safe they really are ...........Ed

[BERTRAM BOY]

I'm a big fan of Kubica as well. I thought BMW would do a bit better, especially after the momentum they showed last year.

I read somewhere ( I don't quite remember where) that Virgin was going to field a team next year...maybe they'll sponsor Brawn instead.

[zelatore]

I'm a big fan of Kubica as well. I thought BMW would do a bit better, especially after the momentum they showed last year.
I read somewhere ( I don't quite remember where) that Virgin was going to field a team next year...maybe they'll sponsor Brawn instead.

My guess is Virgin would buy naming rights to Brawn as opposed to fielding a new team from scratch.

Too bad for them they didn't get in before the 1-2 finish. I'm thinking the price might have gone up a bit after that. :biggrin.:

[p729lws]

Damn that was a good race!

Looks like Hamilton just got disqualified from the Australian GP for providing 'misleading' evidence to the stewards about letting Trulli past under the safety car.... no more points for Hamilton or McLaren...

Sounds like all of the teams are trying to get their new diffuser cars ready for Sepang this weekend. Ferrari is claiming it cost 20 million euros for the re-design :shocking:

April is known as a wet month in Malaysia... Rain will make the lower HP teams more competative...

Should be a good weekend...

Dan

[zelatore]

Yeah, they busted Hamilton for saying he didn't slow down to let Trulli past. Not sure why he thought he should let him by - you go off, you loose the spot whether the safety car is out or not.

The even bigger question is why he thought he could say he didn't when he did - uh, there's about a hundred cameras on you at any given time and the FIA can request your in-car radio tapes. How exactly were you going to get away with that?

And they busted Vettle 10 grid positions for the next race for staying out with only three wheels on the car. Sorry, but I'd have done exactly the same thing! Let's see, you're wounded but still limping around with one lap to go under the safety car and you're well into the points. I think you keep driving it until it won't go any further! Imagine the fan reaction if he'd brought home points with a 3 wheeled car! They'd have gone crazy cheering him on!

I hear rain is in the forcast for this weekend.....should be interesting. :yes:

[justleft]

Starting out to a great yr !!! :yes:

Hamilton - It really sucks to be back of the pack when you are used to so much better. Trust me, I've been there !

I bet diffusers will look alot different this weekend. Yea, cost saving !!

[p729lws]

I read somewhere that Hamilton pased Trulli just before the safety car was deployed but McLaren thought that he passed after the safety car so they told him to let Trulli back by. When Hamilton slowed and pulled to the side Trulli said he he knew he was behind but passed him so he wouldn't fall below the minimum safety car speed. All of this was recorded on both team radios but Hamilton claimed afterwards that he wasn't trying to let him past.... The stewards should have put them in the correct order before the restart, IMO.

Vettle got the shaft for sure:yes: I didn't think the wreak was his fault and I never heard that they "black flaged" him so would he pull over???

Tommorrows practice times should be interesting w/ the KERS cars on the long straights...

[gcarter]

So it seems like only about ten years ago or so that the grooved tires were required to kill some traction???????
So, why go back to slicks?
Is the valve train still pneumatic? If so, why not require springs?
I mean with smaller budgets (for some anyway) it would seem that the deletion of some of the HP enablers would be good for competition.

[p729lws]

Weren't the groved tires brought in to slow the cars when there were 2 tire manufacturers? Can't remember which came first.

Yes, the valve train is still pneumatic. Max rpm was lowered to 18,000 this year:eek:

I'd like to see a ban on sequential gear boxes and computer controlled paddle shifters. That would be fun to watch.

Dan

[zelatore]

I always thought the grooved tire thing was a mistake. Killing mechanical grip by limiting tire only made the cars more dependent on aero grip, which just amplified the lack of overtaking and led us to the point we are at now with the weird wings.

Of course, having one tire supplier has allowed them to play with compounds like they are this year to make for a better show, but it does feel awfully artificial.

I still enjoy the idea that F1 is the height of technical achievement. I want these cars to represent the ragged edge of what can be done. Unfortunately that path has run us into the ground budget wise, so I can understand the desire to contain costs. Unfortunately, IMO it does subtract from the allure of the sport. And honestly I don't see a lot of savings. The stricter the rules (until you become a spec series) the more the teams try to exploit what's left in their control. This is exactly why I don't think Brawn can stay at the front all season - they simply don't have the money (at this point) to continue development.

Meanwhile Ferrari, McLaren, et al are firing up the printing presses to develop new rear diffusers. I haven't watched practice (I'm going to watch it today) but I don't expect they'll have created an effective diffuser for this race. Maybe by the next...

[gcarter]

I used to work w/a guy from Scotland who told me he stopped watching and following F-1 when they went rear engine and the driver disappeared.

I think there's something to be said for that.

[zelatore]

While I'm not ready to give up my F1, I certainly have a thing for vintage racing. Preferably Can Am and Trans Am (both 2 and 5 liter). Nothing like going to a big historic race like Elkhart Lake and watching a full field of big block Can Am cars come down the hill on the warm up lap. Or watching a Boss 302 slip-sliding around the track.

I watched practice - the Ferraris are looking stronger this week. Well, other than that little bit of excitement Kimi had with his KERS system.

Any predictions for tonight's qualifying?

[p729lws]

I watched practice - the Ferraris are looking stronger this week. Well, other than that little bit of excitement Kimi had with his KERS system.

Any predictions for tonight's qualifying?

Your boy Kimi was pretty quick to bail from the smokin' Ferrari in P1:eek: And it sounds like they had more KERS issues in P2 also.

The McLaren team is still running in the back of the pack... Ron won't let that continue much longer...

Put me down for more Brawn GP domination in the morning...

Dan

[zelatore]

Your boy Kimi was pretty quick to bail from the smokin' Ferrari in P1:eek: And it sounds like they had more KERS issues in P2 also.
The McLaren team is still running in the back of the pack... Ron won't let that continue much longer...
Put me down for more Brawn GP domination in the morning...
Dan

Hey, when you've got smoke pouring from the cockpit you've got a pretty good motivator to get out of the car!

I also agree with McLaren moving forward over the season. I still think they have the best engineering team back home.

But this morning didn't look good for them or Ferrari. You nailed it with Brawn again at the top of the sheets, although Trulli was definitely looking to take the pole. I haven't looked at the fuel specs yet but I wonder if he didn't run a little lighter trying for P1.

I wonder if Ferrari didn't remove the KERS system overnight. They had two failures on Kimi's car, and they seem to have taken a sudden hit in performance compared to practice.

I liked the statistic Varsha threw out about Brawn now having more poles in 2 races than Honda did in 50-something. :rlol:

[p729lws]

With two races in the bag...
Ferrari has no points
McLaren and the world champ have one point
Heikki's McLaren hasn't completed a lap
Brawn and Toyota have more points than everyone else combined

Should be an interesting year! Still can't believe they put Kimi on a dry track w/ full wets.

Two more weeks to China...

Dan

[zelatore]

With two races in the bag...
Ferrari has no points
McLaren and the world champ have one point
Heikki's McLaren hasn't completed a lap
Brawn and Toyota have more points than everyone else combined
Should be an interesting year! Still can't believe they put Kimi on a dry track w/ full wets.
Two more weeks to China...
Dan
I was pretty shocked by the move to full wets with Kimi as well. I understand the thinking but clearly it was a mistake. Had they at least done inters he'd have had a chance.

Funny thing is, when it was MS and Brawn at Ferrari, they used to pull radical strategies and get away with it. Not so much now...

At least Toyota still doesn't have a win. I would be quite happy to never see them post a win. BTW, I don't much care for Toyota. Did I mention that?

Also, once again too bad for Vettle. Two races now he should have been in with good points but he's still sitting on 0.

[gcarter]

I've been thinking about how to maybe lower expenses w/o killing peformance and/or technological development.
Consider these:

Increase displacement to 4.5 or 5.0 L.
Have any # of cylinders.
Two or four stroke engines.
Two stroke would be able to utilize any advantage of crankcase compression.
If poppet valves are utilized, they MUST use metallic springs for valve closing.
Any # of valves would be legal and any valve material.
Any type of cam drive or cam timing management would be legal.
Sleeve valves would be legal.
Any type of intake and fuel delivery system is OK as long as N.A.
Any type of fuel is OK as long as it's available to the public in a "filling station".
Engine speed limited to 12,000 RPM.
No sequential gear boxes.
Only one "standard" front and rear wing could be used.
No carbon brakes, but other materials could be investigated.
I can think of more, but it could be a start.

[zelatore]

I've been thinking about how to maybe lower expenses w/o killing peformance and/or technological development.
Consider these:

Increase displacement to 4.5 or 5.0 L.
Have any # of cylinders.
Two or four stroke engines.
Two stroke would be able to utilize any advantage of crankcase compression.
If poppet valves are utilized, they MUST use metallic springs for valve closing.
Any # of valves would be legal and any valve material.
Any type of cam drive or cam timing management would be legal.
Sleeve valves would be legal.
Any type of intake and fuel delivery system is OK as long as N.A.
Any type of fuel is OK as long as it's available to the public in a "filling station".
Engine speed limited to 12,000 RPM.
No sequential gear boxes.
Only one "standard" front and rear wing could be used.
No carbon brakes, but other materials could be investigated.
I can think of more, but it could be a start.

Lowering costs is one major goal for the future. But another is staying relevant for manufacturers. To that end I think the larger displacement might be OK; lowering the rev limit to something closer to normal and requiring real pump gas instead of the the 'pump gas' they run now would also be a plus. But the 2 stroke thing is unlikely. The carbon brakes are massively expensive, but they are already beginning to trickle down to street cars. OK, not full carbon/carbon like the racers are using, but the technology is starting to show up on the street.

The sequential'instant shift' gearboxes are a big ticket item, so eliminating them would take a serious chunk out of the budget, but again they are already appearing on street cars so I don't know if the manufacturers would want to give them up.

I would love to see a mix of engine types again as I think that would be interesting. It is surprising how much you can tell the different exhaust notes even now in person - on TV they all pretty much sound the same. But it would be great to see some real differences. Of course, that means the big teams would simply design and test a lot of different engine configurations trying to find an edge.

I'm not sure metal springs would reduce costs significantly. pneumatic springs are a well developed technology that has been around for a long time, and even with the 12K RPM limit it might takes some doing to keep a metal valvetrain together for a full race distance.

However, any way you slice it this season has opened with a bang. I can't hand it all to the new rules but they have played a part. As always, I'm looking forward to the next race eagerly.

[gcarter]

Don, my argument about springs is that pneumatic valve closing has no place in anything other than racing engines.
I don't see how any long life engine could benifit.

[zelatore]

Although pneumatic springs are used here mainly to get the RPM, they also eliminate a good deal of friction in the form of the spring pressure needed to keep the valve following the cam lobe. That means more efficiency. So while I don't see much need for a street engine to turn insane RPM (although some sportbikes are getting up there) there could be an argument for more power and/or less fuel needed. Granted, I don't know the numbers about what is gained by not using springs and the costs are certainly not suitable for daily drivers. I think the real issue would be longevity in a production motor though. Even though we don't see a lot of valve failures in F1 anymore, that's a long way from putting the technology into Joe Sixpack's hands.

Or we could go desmo...nothing like setting 2 sets of lash per valve to keep your mechanic in Rolexes and Bentleys...:wink:

[gcarter]

It occured to me how funny it would be to see some wealthy widow who'd just bough the most expensive Bimmer, Merc, or Caddy they could buy who'd just lost her dry Nitrogen supply and her entire valve train was collapsed.......maybe this technology isn't ready for prime time yet.

[zelatore]

Sure it is! You just have to market it right. Say on something like a Konigsegg (sp?) or Bugatti Veyron or some other stupid-exotic car that people actually take pride in over-paying for then never actually drive. That way they can also take pride in over paying to have the valvetrain re-charged by factory trained mobile technicians. I figure $10,000 per top-off should be about right. Recommended service interval, 500 miles or every 3 weeks, whichever comes first.

Seriously, I don't think it's ready for prime time but I suppose it could be at some point. The concept is valid, it's just difficult to execute.

[p729lws]

So the diffusers from the first two races have been declared to be legal...

McLaren and Renault appear to be running diffusers now...

Ferrari says they are not running the KER's for this race...

Qualifying for the Chinese GP at Shanghai starts in a few hours...

Put me down for more Brawn GP domination...

Dan

[zelatore]

I'm still at the office so I haven't been able to check up on things; I should have stuff waiting for me when I get home.

I think Kubica is running KERS for the first time this race. Might be good for him.

But yeah, you gotta look for Brawn at the front again. Maybe Rubins will get lucky this time. :biggrin.:

[zelatore]

Helllllllloooooo Renault! (at least Renault engines) :wink:

The Red Bulls are no surprise, but where did Fred come from? I don't like the guy, but you can't deny he's good!

And although I really think Vettle is the Next Big Thing (next?....heck, he's already a big thing!) I'd love to see Webber take a win too.

[p729lws]

Team Sebastian is on the board with it's first pole of the year! Fred is second but is running the lightest fuel load of anyone. Have not a Fred fan since he did a rookie brake check on Coulthard and put him in the kitty litter... No suprise that the Adrian Newey cars are finaly fast. The Brawn car are carrying more fuel than anyone in front of them so the race should be a good one!

1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 644kg
2. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 637
3. Mark Webber, Red Bull, 646.5
4. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 661
5. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 659
6. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 664.5
7. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 650.5
8. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 673.5
9. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 679
10. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 673
11. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 679
12. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 697
13. Felipe Massa, Ferrari, 690
14. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 682.7
15. Sebastien Bourdais, Toro Rosso, 690
16. Nelson Piquet, Renault, 697.9
17. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 659
18. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 648
19. Timo Glock, Toyota, 652
20. Giancarlo Fisichella, Force India, 679.5

[zelatore]

And then the rain came.

With working the boat show last week I didn't get a chance to follow any of the pre-race chatter, so I wasn't expecting rain at all. When I turned on the race last night I was completely caught off gaurd.

Vettle just put a serious smack-down on the field. I loved the audio clip from the team to Button saying not to worry, it was just fuel load. Or not.

It's hard to make any good judgments about the teams in a rain race, but Red Bull has been fast all year - it's just been bad luck that's kept them back. So that's not really surprising. And yeah, Newy is a master so it's not a surprise that in a very aero-sensitive year he found a way to get some grip even without the trick diffuser.

Looked like McLaren was showing some pace. I would attribute it to Hamilton being a great rain driver, but he certainly had his problems + Hikki was right there as well, so with both car sitting well in the points I'm guessing they are starting to improve.

Ferrari on the other hand....no KERS and still mechanical problems. Early on when Kimi commented that he had engine problems a lot of guys seemed to be passing him easily so I believed him. But it couldn't have been that bad as he continued the whole race. MAYBE he was handicapped, and if so MAYBE he could hope to find 3rd or 4th next week. They've always gone well at Bahrain, but I'll be surprised if they can find the podium.

Fred was the big stand-out. Nobody doubts he's a hell of a driver, but I was still surprised to see him qualified that far up. I didn't look up the starting fuel load, but since they pulled him in so early I'm guessing he qualified really light?

Brawn is still fast - I'll look for them at the front next week again along with Red Bull. Brawn v. Red Bull looks to be this year's Ferrari v. McLaren for the championship. If you can actually make any predictions after 3 races.


Man, it would SO rock if Vettle could take the championship! He's got a big hill to climb to get past Button but he could do it. Just imagine what that car will do now that Newy can play with the diffuser.


<edit>
Just looked at your numbers above and yeah, Fred was the lightest starter in the field.

[p729lws]

Yep, Newey's going to be hard to beat once he gets the diffuser designed...

Too bad the track didn't dry enough to switch to the inter's or drys. It's always more fun to watch when there is some tire strategy.

Button got caught out by the safety car as he was about to take advantage of his heavy fuel load. The way the red bulls were running it probably wouldn't have made a difference.

And how did Bob Kubica get away w/ trying to mate his BMW w/ Trulli's Toyota???:shocking: Not that he finished in the points but it didn't look like he'd be able to run another lap let alone 38 laps!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpfE0P6QHCA

[zelatore]

And speaking of crashed Toyotas....

How about that trick nose change? I swear they didn't loose 3 seconds doing the change over! I haven't seen anything that cool since the audi rear end swap at LeMans.:eek:

[p729lws]

The Toyota nose change was sweet! Not as cool as the Audi LeMans transaxel swap:wrench::wrench:
Speaking of cost savings, maybe they could reduce the allowable pit crew!:shocking::shocking: Would make the stops slower and change up the strategy some. I think there's a car in there somewhere...