How Hard Is It To Swap 496 For "Blue"?

[Carl C]

JustMercMe's thread verifies what everyone has been telling me; When it is time for my power up I need to lose the 496. I'm at least a year away from this (this year brought the new truck) so I don't need every little detail at this time but I'd like to know generally how difficult this swap is. I would beef up the engine room with at least an additional layer of glass while the motor is out. Are the motor mounts in the same position? Will the Mercury Racing motor bolt up to the existing transom assembly? What about the wiring and components for the EFI? When purchased used do these motors usually come complete with exhaust or am I looking at another 5g for that? Will it clear the hatch? Any other major problems in doing the swap?

[The Hedgehog]

I have a friend that is selling a 525 if you are interested. Exhaust and all.

[Carl C]

I have a friend that is selling a 525 if you are interested. Exhaust and all.

How much? you can send a pm if you don't want to post it here.

[Donziweasel]

Since your 496 is already fuel injected, some of the hard work, like a return fuel line, has been done. Not sure if the wiring harnesses match, but they probably do.

Pull the 496, drop in the 500, if the mounts don't line up, unbolt them from the stringers, drill new holes and mount them. 500 should bolt to the transon assembly, but you might have to do some engine alignment with the drive.

Considering the problems your boat has had, I think the extra glass work will be worth the cost. I am going to use aluminum sandwinched on my stringers.

Carl, one thing you have to ask yourself, is this boat a good candidate for more power and if so, how much? Considering the issues you have had, throwing moe power at it might not be the best idea. It will void the warranty and if you develop futher issues, could become VERY expensive.

I know you love your boat and it shows, but perhaps if you are looking for a faster 22, a pre-2000 year in good shape might make a better choice for more power. Especailly with the pounding it takes on the Great Lakes.

[Carl C]

So the boat I paid $52,500 for is an unworthy POS?:eek:

[BUIZILLA]

there's nothing wrong with a maintained 496..

do you guys have ANY idea how many 496 trucks are out there?

geez... :rolleyes:

[mattyboy]

Carl,

sooner or later you have to come to the realization that your boat is no longer NEW and join the rest of the masses and know that glass flexes and cracks things break, if you want an and extremely powered 22 that it is an ongoing project, the higher the power,the torque the speed THE HIGHER THE STRESS.
The faster you go the faster they break

you have to decide if it is worth it TO YOU

I would also look at other options than "BLUE" there are motors being built by others that offer more options than just a merc package, some are even air breathers


One thing people over look is the value of using the boat and the service it gives you and the enjoyment. some get the enjoyment of tinkering and wrenching then running and repeating , some get more enjoyment of turning the key and going. some have to have a screamer,some need a bling queen,some like it stock, then some have to have it all
I am sorta in between and think to each his own it's all good

WHAT do you want out of YOUR Boat???

NO ONE here can answer that question for you


is the 500 enough,
are you prepared to go the distance and do what it takes or only go half way?? my point if you want a 90 mph classic, theres a few out there, it's been done follow their lead.
if 90 mph is everything and the hatch needs to be cut or the transom needs to be filled and re cut that's what it takes you have to do it???



roast beef on rye swiss , lettuce tomato and horseradish, quarters ready, the Who on the MP3 ;)

[BUIZILLA]

roast beef on rye swiss , lettuce tomato and horseradish, quarters ready, the Who on the MP3 ;) x 2, hold the lettuce..

[handfulz28]

The engine itself is a drop-in, plug-in deal. Your CMIs will bolt on to a 500 but not a 525. Yo umay or may not need exhaust mods depending on whether you're using Captain's Call, etc. and you might have to use a length of rubber/silicone due to slight variance in width.

The 525s use a proprietary Edlebrock head with raised exhaust ports and that's why they're usually offered with the original CMI exhaust. Something to look out for is if a particular 525 came from a staggered setup. The headers for a stagger install are different between the two motors so "exhaust included" might not be a great deal if you have to have some custom fabbed because you got the forward motor.

If I had a 496, I'd just plan to go with a Raylar kit. The motor is perfectly fine and with your exhaust will make just as much power as a 525. Otherwise go with a custom builder for the money. Merc blue power isn't worth the premium and since you aren't really worried about resale, any non-original engine won't return it's cost at sale time.

[Carl C]

Matty, my goal is eventually around 90 mph. Not this year, not next. Maybe a stock 525 next year to get me over 80. Maybe a blower on that motor down the line to get me where I want to be. My hull has been repaired by Donzi. The recurring outside cracks were apparently cosmetic. The reinforcement on the engine room floor looks to be well done and holding up. I will run the boat hard with stock power this final season under warranty. If this hull fails things will get ugly. I did not pay chump change for this boat and I will not settle for a hull with an inherent flaw. Before swapping motors I will remove the "bilge coat" and reinforce the entire aft area of the boat with a couple layers of glass mat and resin. And, yes, I will install a Teague scoop if need be. Selling this boat for a $20,000 loss over what I owe on it and buying an older one for another 10-20g is not an option. duh. I would like to know how a 525 would be mounted with the wider stringer spacing. Has anyone done this? Is the EFI self contained on the 525 or is a wiring harness swap needed and will it bolt to the existing transom assembly.

[glashole]

So the boat I paid $52,500 for is an unworthy POS?:eek:

wasn't it just last week that those newer ones were just on the market for like low 20's

[Carl C]

Michael, your post came up while I was typing. Thanks.

[Carl C]

wasn't it just last week that those newer ones were just on the market for like low 20's

Yes, see post above yours.

[Donziweasel]

So the boat I paid $52,500 for is an unworthy POS?

No, you paid 52,000.00 for a hull with a design flaw. This hull has been repaired to Donzi's standards with 496 HO 425 hp engine. You haven't even really run the boat to see if the repairs hold up. You had it fixed once, and it came back.

You boat was designed to run mid-70's. 90 mph is a hell of a lot different. With a blower on a 525, you could be getting near 800 hp.

Now, as for selling and buying a better suited boat for your application, yes you will take a loss on yours, you will save money on an older model in good shape, and what about the aggravations if the stringer problem comes back? Then you have a 52,000.00 boat + engine+ glass work+install + tuning+ prop that doesn't go 9 mph, much less 90.

As Matty said, I also agree that the Merc blue motors are nice, but VERY expensive. There are some shops out there building quality, high hp, reliable engines for a fraction of the cost of a Merc Blue motor.

Whatever you do, good luck.

[Air 22]

Matty, my goal is eventually around 90 mph. I would like to know how a 525 would be mounted with the wider stringer spacing. Has anyone done this? Is the EFI self contained on the 525 or is a wiring harness swap needed and will it bolt to the existing transom assembly.


Carl...Our good friend George Culotta President of the Lake Winni Club has a 525 in his 1998 22 Classic. Stock mounting brackets to original stringers. He had this done last Spring by my wingman BRAVO ONE aka Bob Haver. Yes it will bolt to the existing transom assembly(BRAVO)
Wiring sys is self contained 13pin(don't quote me).. his older 454, his older
HP500 and the HP525 all bolted in...not sure if the 496 has a diff eng mount system...but I think its close if not the same. My HP500EFI bolted right in and the wire harness plugged right in as well.:pimp:

If you go with a Race Mounts/engine cradle... then some mod's may be in order in the stringer area and or mounting brackets for space.

good luck...GO BLUE..:biggrin.:

[mattyboy]

Carl
you missed my point if the eventual Configuration and power needs to have your stringers moved or beefed up or Gussets added that's what it takes then that's what it takes.

sometimes when it comes to your boat you need to step away or look at things from the outside as uninterested party , Marie taught me this with the 16, with phrases like, well it is a 40 year old boat you know, it doesn't look like a 40 year old boat, who the hell are holman moody and why are they so important are they paying the gas or buying lunch ;)

someone from the outside looking in has an un jaded look at what the boat really is



all glass boats get cracks you run hard you're gonna get cracks
who are you going to blame for the cracks that show up 3 years from now??

do you see yourself in a 22 3 years from now??

[Donziweasel]

What Matty said......:wink:

[mrfixxall]

carl,If it were me i would just leave the boat alone.you have nice reliable boat that almost goes 80 mph now. save the coin that you will never get out of the boat if you go to sell it........ buy a tunnel hull with a egg beater on it that will push 100 mph..somthing like a stv or a tunnel hull boat..

just my o2:biggrin:

[Carl C]

You guys my hull has been beefed up with a factory mini-stringer reinforcement kit and procedure. It is already stronger than stock. I said I would do additional strenthening of this area while the engine is out. I will not be running 90 mph very often obviously. I want that ability though when conditions permit and for an occasional friendly race. Yes I see myself sticking with this boat for quite some time. I still have my Banshee quad I bought new in 1987. I still have my 1982 Mustang GT that I bought in 1985. If the hull cracks years from now and with additional power I will blame myself. If it cracks this year with stock power i will blame Donzi Marine.

OK, enough of that. It sounds like an easy swap. I know opinions vary on what engine to use but I'm seeing a majority vote for the Merc Racing blue motors.

Mr. Fix my last boat was an 85 mph hydrostream. I am enjoying the bigger Donzi that lets me venture cautiously onto the Great Lakes. I love watching the local 115 mph STV run on Lake Oakland but he can only open it up when water is near calm.

Hedge, how much for that 525. I'll send you a cashier's check for the amount plus $4,000 extra to cover shipping. Just cash the check and immediately send the shipping fee to my carrier in Nigeria. No, seriously. How much?

[Donziweasel]

I know opinions vary on what engine to use but I'm seeing a majority vote for the Merc Racing blue motors.

Where are you getting that?

Matty and I said look at other options.

Hedgehog said he knows of a 525 for sale, but did not give an opinion as to whether to get it or not.

Buiz is a for a well maintained 496

Handfulz28 said go with a Raylar kit for the 496.

Dwight said go blue

Mike said stay with the 496.

1 out of 6 said go with the Blue motor. How is this a majority vote for the blue?

[chappy]

Ilmor 7-10.

:biggrin.:

[gcarter]

I'd like to point out that Catch is/was running low 90's w/a pretty much stock 454 Mag and a Procharger.
I'll tell you it was seemingly effortless.
Just pay the coin.

[The Hedgehog]

I sent you a PM. Bought right, a 525 would be a nice package for a 22.

Would I go blue? For a the right price? Oh hell yeah. I will take that over the 496 any day.

Now would I do that vs do something big like the Weasel? Hmmm. Well I am a custom engine guy but it takes some coin.

[Carl C]

Where are you getting that?

Matty and I said look at other options.

Hedgehog said he knows of a 525 for sale, but did not give an opinion as to whether to get it or not.

Buiz is a for a well maintained 496

Handfulz28 said go with a Raylar kit for the 496.

Dwight said go blue

Mike said stay with the 496.

1 out of 6 said go with the Blue motor. How is this a majority vote for the blue?

From JustMercMe's thread about the 496 and his thread on OSO. And from Harbormaster, Dwight, Todd & Dr. Dan. And from past threads here and on other boating forums. Also used blue motors are easier to find than used Ilmors, Teagues, Sterlings etc.

[Carl C]

I talked to Hedgehog and the price is fair but just not doable for me right now. It looks like not too difficult of a project and I may look into it more toward the end of this boating season when I know better where I stand financially. Thanks for the responses. This seems to be another "hot topic".

[VetteLT193]

The engine itself is a drop-in, plug-in deal. Your CMIs will bolt on to a 500 but not a 525. Yo umay or may not need exhaust mods depending on whether you're using Captain's Call, etc. and you might have to use a length of rubber/silicone due to slight variance in width.

This is incorrect.

The blocks are different. Exhaust will NOT bolt up.

I think Matty has it right by saying where do you want to be in the end?

90+? if so, plan for that.

If you are ok with the 80's I'd go procharger. They make 580 HP (on the 496 HO) with only 3.5 PSI and behing centrifugal they don't beat the crap out of the engine when you aren't at full RPM like whipple's do. If you get bored all you have to do is bump the boost to 5 PSI and you are at 625HP....

plus, it's a weekend project VS. a lifetime of PITA.

[zelatore]

....plus, it's a weekend project VS. a lifetime of PITA.

grumble, mutter, 'weekend project' he says....:cussball:

Sure, it SEEMS like a weekend project. Until you start thinking 'while I'm in here, I should go ahead and....'

Weekend project. I got your weekend project!

Now where'd I put that autocad CD...gotta start laying out the new dash...

[VetteLT193]

grumble, mutter, 'weekend project' he says....:cussball:
Sure, it SEEMS like a weekend project. Until you start thinking 'while I'm in here, I should go ahead and....'
Weekend project. I got your weekend project!
Now where'd I put that autocad CD...gotta start laying out the new dash...

I totally understand. I should have said it's better than a whole new engine project. :yes:

[Donziweasel]

From JustMercMe's thread about the 496 and his thread on OSO. And from Harbormaster, Dwight, Todd & Dr. Dan. And from past threads here and on other boating forums. Also used blue motors are easier to find than used Ilmors, Teagues, Sterlings etc.

Different boats. I would ask if members feel this is a good engine for YOUR boat.

It doesn't have to be a Teague, Ilmore or Sterling. Plenty of good BBC on the market. Hell, I got a fully dressed, with CMI's, 540 Merc Bulldog @ 600 hp for 9,900.00 with 20 hours on it. There are some damn good deals out there.

[The Hedgehog]

Different boats. I would ask if members feel this is a good engine for YOUR boat.
It doesn't have to be a Teague, Ilmore or Sterling. Plenty of good BBC on the market. Hell, I got a fully dressed, with CMI's, 540 Merc Bulldog @ 600 hp for 9,900.00 with 20 hours on it. There are some damn good deals out there.

That's a deal. Tex and I will be out to put it in!

[handfulz28]

This is incorrect.

Which part? Exhaust bolts to the head, and the bolt/port locations are the same between 496 and standard BBC heads. Bolting on the aluminum/stainless 496 exhaust is a common upgrade for older 454/502s. The 496 is a taller deck than standard, but the net difference is about 1" in width and height, all else being equal.

The headers will bolt on to the engine, as I clarified in my first post no guarantee how it will line up to outlets.

[osur866]

Carl I think your missing a key component before you go any futher with your boat, that being STEERING if you vaule your boat and your well being :biggrin.: Steve

[Carl C]

Which part? Exhaust bolts to the head, and the bolt/port locations are the same between 496 and standard BBC heads. Bolting on the aluminum/stainless 496 exhaust is a common upgrade for older 454/502s. The 496 is a taller deck than standard, but the net difference is about 1" in width and height, all else being equal.

The headers will bolt on to the engine, as I clarified in my first post no guarantee how it will line up to outlets.

It's a moot point since I prolly wouldn't go with anything less than the 525.


Carl I think your missing a key component before you go any futher with your boat, that being STEERING if you vaule your boat and your well being :biggrin.: Steve

Steering would be done first. I wanted to do it this year but had to get the new truck sooner than planned. The engine swap will not happen this summer regardless. I am planning for the future. Hopefully not too distant future. I will see what my financial situation is come fall and I may be in the market for a pull out blue baby. This would be a good winter project.

[osur866]

If it was me, I'd go forward with steering and not worry about what engine to put in until the time came. Heck in a couple of years there maybe other options out there that maybe better than a 525 take out. I'd think a 502 take out with a Whipple would be more cost effective and probably net you a higher speed IMO. Set the boat up to take more power then decide what to go with when the time is right. This is the approach I have taken with my 18, only thing left is more power in the future if I choose too, but for now my 18 runs pretty well and I'm going to just put gas in and change oil in her for a few seasons until the 6.2 gets tired, then well who knows what. steve

[mattyboy]

Carl


you're at "A" you want to be at "D"

you are going to stop and spend money at "B" and "C" on your way to "D"

as Gcarter mentioned there are a few boat already at "D" follow their lead they know what it takes. hold onto your money run the 496 for another 2 years or so skip "B" and "C" and the money you would spend there and go right to "D"

just make sure that's where you really want to be

[VetteLT193]

I thought the bolt pattern was different, but I think I'm wrong now. sorry :worthy:

[Pismo]

I thought the bolt pattern was different, but I think I'm wrong now. sorry :worthy:

I think the bolt pattern is different that's why CMI built the 496 specific headers.

[VetteLT193]

I think the bolt pattern is different that's why CMI built the 496 specific headers.

I thought so too...

well now I'm really confused.

[Carl C]

Carl


you're at "A" you want to be at "D"

you are going to stop and spend money at "B" and "C" on your way to "D"

as Gcarter mentioned there are a few boat already at "D" follow their lead they know what it takes. hold onto your money run the 496 for another 2 years or so skip "B" and "C" and the money you would spend there and go right to "D"

just make sure that's where you really want to be

Well that sounds like the best advice you've offered yet, Matty. To go direct from A to D would take steering, beefed up hull and no less than 700SCI (IMO). It's all speculation now but I have food for thought for this summer. My questions about a merc racing motor bolting in have been answered. I am real close to eliminating all credit card debt:yippie:. Would like to be rid of the truck payment before taking on the cost of a motor of that calibur.

Unless yu send moter and I send Casheer Chek. :wink:

[handfulz28]

Sorry for the hijack Carl...

I claim no expertise nor actual personal expertise. I've seen the pictures and talked to a couple people who bolted on and run the 496 manifolds/risers no problem.

If bolt/port location are the same, just how different can the CMIs be? I'm sure a phone call from someone "in the biz" would answer the question. Perhaps some confusion between the 525 heads (raised ports) and all others?