Donzi V-12 Engine....

[Air 22]

Ok...now were talking serious fly bye's:D hmmm...and it only weighs 1345lbs...
1325HP....:odie: If u have never heard one of these engines it is very impressive indeed...:p

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Allison-V-1710-55-engine-P-51-P-38-V-12-WW2-aircraft_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a570Q7c66 Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c2 93Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZ item180333221929QQitemZ180333221929QQptZMotorsQ5fA viationQ5fPartsQ5fGear#ebayphotohosting

[HOWARD O]

Hmmm, pretty fancy. I think I'd rather have it one of these though!

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/p-51-mustang-larry-mcmanus.jpg

[Air 22]

Hmmm, pretty fancy. I think I'd rather have it one of these though!
http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/p-51-mustang-larry-mcmanus.jpg

Yes:) me 2...

That P-51 is worth approx 4-6 Comp ZR-38's...:)

[gcarter]

The 1710 Allison started development in the late '20's, for the Army, I think. It continued through the '30's and went into several fighter aircraft of the period, but most famously the Curtiss P-40 made famous by the Flying Tigers in China. Later it went into the P-51A as sufficient RR Merlins weren't avaiable until Packard got the RR Merlin mfg contract.
Why RR Merlins instead of the Allisons? Superchargers. The Army never put any money into two stage, two speed centrifugal superchargers for this engine but instead dumped a whole lot of cash into GE's turbo supercharger program. This was the package that went into the twin boom, twin engine P-38. Unfortunately, the GE program was very probramatic and the money would have been much better spent on centrifugal blowers for the Allison.
Because of this mistake (IMHO), the Allison was only good for about 17-20 K feet altitude. RR on the other hand, was the best in the world for centrifugal blower design. By the end of the war (WW-II) Merlins had increased from about 850 HP in '37 to about 2300 HP in '46 just because of blower development.
OTOH, the 1710 Allison was a superior engine in every other way. It ran smoother, had a superior head/inlet port design and was a very tough engine. It simply lacked high altitude capabilities.
After the war, these engines were used for many applications...like the Arfons dragsters, high capacity pump engines, unlimited hydro engines. There were still so many available in the '60's that they were for sale in"Trade-A-Plane" for about $150.00 new in the crate.

Note: I didn't look up any of these "facts"....it's all from memory. But if you doubt any of it, check it out yourself. It's a very interesting subject.

[gcarter]

The other thing to remember is you would need a heat exchanger about 6' long and about 12" in diameter. Also, not to mention a humoungous gearbox. Probably the overall package would weigh in at 4K# and would be about 7'-8' long w/the tranny.

Still an interesting idea......
It's a LOT smaller than a 5M 2500 Packard used in PT boats.

[Pismo]

Over 20 bids already. Very cool, lots of interest.

[Ed Donnelly]

Rather than the engine, I would like either the E-type or the Mangusta?
in the background..........Ed

[BigGrizzly]

I don't want to break this to you but the old unlimited hydros ran then. I went to the Potomac race evey year when I was young. When I started racing motorcycles i quit going.

[Ghost]

The Mangusta is gorgeous. I thought I liked the Pantera--now all I can imagine owning is the Mangusta.

(Griz, I hope you missed the tragic day on the Potomac when 3 drivers were lost.)

[ENG40]

This Huthcinson from the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton NY has a 12 cyl Packard. It's very cool to see it cut through the water and listen to that old engine roar!



http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/ENG40/Boats/th_oldpictures24.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/ENG40/Boats/oldpictures24.jpg)

[gcarter]

The Mangusta is gorgeous. I thought I liked the Pantera--now all I can imagine owning is the Mangusta.

(Griz, I hope you missed the tragic day on the Potomac when 3 drivers were lost.)

The only problem w/the Mangusta was they were made for tiny Italian men and women........not normal sized americans.

[gcarter]

This Huthcinson from the Antique Boat Museum in Clayton NY has a 12 cyl Packard. It's very cool to see it cut through the water and listen to that old engine roar!



http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/ENG40/Boats/th_oldpictures24.jpg (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/ENG40/Boats/oldpictures24.jpg)

Is that "Pardon Me" ?

[fogducker III]

Lake Washington Thunderboats were the start of the "aircraft" engines in boats....?

Went there for years..............

[boxy]

Not sure if it's going to be ready for the Sound of Thunder 1000 Islands Donzi Event, but there is a 40 foot wooden speedster being built around a Merlin V-12 up here right now.

[DonziJon]

Is that "Pardon Me" ?


YUP: Looks like Pardon Me to me. I ran with Pardon Me one season when she was in the water. She ran out of the Antique Boat Museum down the river to Alex Bay for gas. I ran alongside with the Minx and a little aft on her port quarter...just outside her wake. We were doing 48 down the river where it is pretty narrow, past the CG Station. They had some high roller passengers who paid something like $200 each for the ride. The boat uses 100LL AvGas that gets delivered by truck at Alex Bay. :umbrella: The only regret I had was I couldn't hear ALL the sound from the big 4M-2500 Packard because of my Donzi pipes. John

PS: They only put the boat in the water every few years..not every year.
PPS: I forgot to mention, for those not familiar with the boat..It's 48' Mahogany Runabout....Something like a Chris Craft..only much bigger.

[gcarter]

Not sure if it's going to be ready for the Sound of Thunder 1000 Islands Donzi Event, but there is a 40 foot wooden speedster being built around a Merlin V-12 up here right now.

RR built several versions of Merlins....there was a tank engine, block and heads were cast iron and was supposed to be a good low stress engine, maybe 600-800 HP. I don't remember the name though, ALL RR's have names...even today.

Then there was a marine version, they were called Merlins so they were probably marinized aircraft engines. I haven't found out much about these engines, and only seen a few distant photos of them. Anyway, I would guess they were 1200-1400 HP or about the same as a 4M, or 5M Packard.

RR always had trouble building enough Merlins, they were designed for hand fitting of all parts. It took Packard to change all that. Packard built over 50000 Merlins, more than RR did in all their facilities.

[ENG40]

Is that "Pardon Me" ?


Yes, sorry for the poor quality photo it's a scan of a picture from the museum. I did some engine work and got to ride on it about 25 years ago before the museum got it donated to them. It takes 2 people to operate the boat, one to drive and a second to operate the shift which is located quite a distance behind the driver.

[BUIZILLA]

NO fish to be found after that :) :) that's because you sh1t in their living room...

[boxy]

RR built several versions of Merlins....there was a tank engine, block and heads were cast iron and was supposed to be a good low stress engine, maybe 600-800 HP. I don't remember the name though, ALL RR's have names...even today.

Then there was a marine version, they were called Merlins so they were probably marinized aircraft engines. I haven't found out much about these engines, and only seen a few distant photos of them. Anyway, I would guess they were 1200-1400 HP or about the same as a 4M, or 5M Packard.

RR always had trouble building enough Merlins, they were designed for hand fitting of all parts. It took Packard to change all that. Packard built over 50000 Merlins, more than RR did in all their facilities.

From the conversations I've had with the people involved, it is supposed to be a new in crate early 60's era 1300 hp motor. Rolls Royce Merlin V-12.

George, here is a link to some of the Thunder Boat history....
http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0239.html
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/missamerica8.html
http://www.countyweeklynews.ca/ArticleDisplayGenContent.aspx?e=2635

and a great page of vintage hydroplanes...
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/the_boats.html

xGSpN7erLSE

[gcarter]

Kermit Weeks spotted me, dropped in behind me and went about 50' over the top of my head in his P-51..



:) :)

Too bad it wasn't a little closer......just for effect, you know!:D

[cmbracer]

The tank version of the RR Merlin was made by Rover(under licens).
Called a Rover Meteor!

Yes, some of the castings were made of iron istead of aluminium.

It's about 600 kilo = 1300 pounds
650hp at 2300rpm.
It's a little long, you know 12 cylinders packing some 1650" will take some room:odie:

I have got 2 of them, from the danish millitary. One new in the box and a pull out from a Centurien tank.

One could be bought if anybode was interested in a trade.
Would make a bullet proof 12-1500hp engine with a blower.

Went to Polk county to see fantasy of Flight. Kermit is the man....!
Makes a dane wanna be an a american.

[BigGrizzly]

Ghost, I don't remember the diver thing but I do remember the Miss Bardahl break apart, and a couple of others. Teams from Miss Budweiser with all the goodies down to the rag tag teams, pulled by pick up trucks. The best parts were the rag tag teams giving the maga Dollar teams a run for their money. I can also remember one of the first wide world of sports telecasts on the OHIO river where a nobody beat all the big boys. That is what I call racing. The privateer could still do it back then.

[Pismo]

It's gone! Removed from eBay..Too bad, I wanted to see what it went for....

[cmbracer]

Pismo

I know the tank version would go for about 2500-3500Euro here in europe!
Offcause it depends on condition.
A really nice one is more.

The tractorpulling people has been sweeping them up for years.
They run them to about 2500hp no worry's.

[gcarter]

The tank version of the RR Merlin was made by Rover(under licens).
Called a Rover Meteor!

Yes, some of the castings were made of iron istead of aluminium.

It's about 600 kilo = 1300 pounds
650hp at 2300rpm.
It's a little long, you know 12 cylinders packing some 1650" will take some room:odie:

I have got 2 of them, from the danish millitary. One new in the box and a pull out from a Centurien tank.

One could be bought if anybode was interested in a trade.
Would make a bullet proof 12-1500hp engine with a blower.

Went to Polk county to see fantasy of Flight. Kermit is the man....!
Makes a dane wanna be an a american.

Meteor it is!
I was thinking about it on the way to work this morning.
The Meteor is a much simpler engine. It didn't need such a large supercharger (I can't remember if it didn't have one, but some very long, very large engines run much better with a little boost to help distribute mixture) also, it didn't need such a sophisticated mixture controls as it didn't operate at 30,000'.

[Ghost]

Ghost, I don't remember the diver thing but I do remember the Miss Bardahl break apart, and a couple of others. Teams from Miss Budweiser with all the goodies down to the rag tag teams, pulled by pick up trucks. The best parts were the rag tag teams giving the maga Dollar teams a run for their money. I can also remember one of the first wide world of sports telecasts on the OHIO river where a nobody beat all the big boys. That is what I call racing. The privateer could still do it back then.

Yeah, that sounds like the same year--1966. Very sad. Found stuff on the web right away when I looked.

I *think* I know the Ohio River race you mention. If you haven't seen the film about it they made a few years back, here's the imdb link. Not perfect, but I liked it a LOT. Have trouble thinking a lot of folks here wouldn't enjoy it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206113/

[gcarter]

From the conversations I've had with the people involved, it is supposed to be a new in crate early 60's era 1300 hp motor. Rolls Royce Merlin V-12.

George, here is a link to some of the Thunder Boat history....
http://www.thunderboats.org/history/history0239.html
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/missamerica8.html
http://www.countyweeklynews.ca/ArticleDisplayGenContent.aspx?e=2635

and a great page of vintage hydroplanes...
http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/the_boats.html

xGSpN7erLSE

Thanks for the links Steve.

[Air 22]

'splains the color of the bay doesn't it?
Any closer and the propwash would have knocked me off the poling platform. I still don't know how the heck I didn't fall off..
Kermit's a pretty cool guy. Many mornings I would see him and some of his warbird buddies out for early AM flights. Awesome sight, sure makes you feel proud to live here :salute:

Shaggy...like this and u'd get a hair cut too....What an incredible aircraft:kingme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn9xzP_Ew_A&feature=related

[Air 22]

The F4U & the R2800 is just freak'n sweet...:biggrin.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JnJXqRzzAE&feature=related

[gcarter]

The F4U & the R2800 is just freak'n sweet...:biggrin.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JnJXqRzzAE&feature=related

And just think Dwight......the R-2800 only has 36 spark plugs!!!!!

And we complain ab out 8.

[mattyboy]

I have a pic of the muesuem plate for Pardon me it has the numbers top end was i think 70 and with some gianormus GPH burn
clayton was a nice side trip when we went up to 1k isles


pardon me is huge



they also put the allison in the p39 aircobra and again it was good under 17k feet alot of engineering on that plane mid engine, prop shaft center mounted gun

the p51 and p 47 in their first "A" versions where butt ugly their canopies had metal woven thru them wasn't til they put the tear drop canopy on them that they reall became sleek looking aircraft

[Air 22]

And just think Dwight......the R-2800 only has 36 spark plugs!!!!!

And we complain ab out 8.


Ya that's the easy part...try 20gal of oil too... should make changing it a blast......lol:pimp:

[mattyboy]

looking at this I'll take the rotary engine the v 12 starts hard


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGwfKzAFEOQ

[mattyboy]

here's what i have of pardon me

i was not lucky enuff to see it in the water it was dry docked

[Air 22]

Your just jealous...


Scott next time i'm in MIA...you'll have to introduce me to Kermit...:yes:

[Choprpilot]

The Mustang D model had a Vne speed of 505 mph. That's not to exceed speed for you land lovers.

[CHACHI]

here's what i have of pardon me

i was not lucky enuff to see it in the water it was dry docked

It was built by Hutchenson's Marine up in A-Bay in 1948 to the tune of $48,000.00. It is 48 feet long and I want to say it burns fuel at over 200 GPH.

It is absolutly majestic running on plane and to see the docking abilities of the two guys who were piloting the boat, perfect orchestration.

Ken

[CHACHI]

Now that I have opened Matty's photos, my above post is a little redundant, but I am glad to see my mind isn't totally shot.

Ken

[gcarter]

Thanks to the gracious hosts that Ken and Terri are, I had the pleasure to see "Pardon Me" in the water, but alas, it wasn't running that day.
But still very impressive.

If there was a problem w/the Packard "M" series, it was a development of the Liberty engine of WW-I...circa 1916-1917 and had individual jacketed cylinders which made for a Verrrrrrrrry long and heavy engine. There were both aircraft versions, "A" series, and marine "M" series. They were 2500 cubic inches and naturally aspirated version was only good for 600-800 HP. Because it was from a generation previous, it had long since reached its limits of development at about the time of Gar Wood's Miss America X.
The only reason it had a "resurection" just previous to WW-II was because Packard was the only company in the Western World that had an engine "on the shelf".....even though Packard hadn't built one in 10 years or so. At the urging of the Brits, and later, the US, Packard started limited production in about '38 or so.
It wasn't a great engine, it was very inefficient, even blown. The "5M" version towards the end of the war only developed about 1800 HP and only when in very top tune, which wasn't very often. But there were a lot produced and like the Allisons, there were a jillion of them laying around after the war.
If, at the time, I were looking to build a "special" and had to choose the Packard or Allison, it would be the Allison. The Allison was about 2' shorter and probably 800-1000 # lighter and had the potential of producing a lot more power w/a much lower fuel burn rate.

[BUIZILLA]

Scott next time i'm in MIA...you'll have to introduce me to Kermit...:yes: the museum is in Polk City now... :yes:

[gcarter]

the museum is in Polk City now... :yes:

And a very impressive facility it is.

[mattyboy]

sharp as a tack Ken ;)

I loved the clayton museum it was a nice trip, do they still have "GOLD MEMBER" up there on display yes that's right a SOLID GOLD JOHNSON


50 hp outboard motor made to commerorate some outlandish number of motors produced by OMC,
over a million?? now my mind is totally shot :yes:

[HOWARD O]

My most favorite boat in the world, the Thunderbird at Lake Tahoe. Powered by two Allison engines! During WWII, when they were "commandeering" yachts for use during wartime, the owners of the Thunderbird actually SUNK the boat so it would not be discovered and used for the war.

Based on the streamlined designs of John Hacker, Thunderbird is a 55-foot commuter boat featuring a distinctive stainless-steel cabin top that was built for millionaire George Whittell, who was fascinated with aircraft, automobile and boat technology. Enamored with the lines of his personal DC-2 airplane, Whittell requested Thunderbird's hull and cockpit be built to resemble the fuselage of his twin-engine aircraft. Built in 1939 by the Huskins Boat Co. of Bay City, MI, Thunderbird's original twin 550-hp Kermath engines were replaced in the 1960s with twin 1,000-hp Allison V-12 aircraft engines (the same used by the P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft used in World War II). The yacht is owned by Joan Gibb of Incline Village, NV, and is berthed in the original boathouse built and designed by George Whittell. The boathouse is connected to the main house by a 600-foot tunnel that was blasted through granite at the Thunderbird Lodge Historic Site on Lake Tahoe.



http://www.boattahoe.com/images/tbirdboathouse.jpg

[gcarter]

That's a fascinating story Howard.
Hacker was very much into "Art Deco" streamlining during that period.

[HOWARD O]

I wish I could remember more details of it's history, I saw it once at the annual Concours D'Elegance show at Tahoe. It's some show! Obviously, this boat is an icon on that lake. It is just gorgeous beyond words. :yes: