Small Block vs. Big Block.

[harbormaster]

I hear so many people say a small block just does not produce the torque of a big block. Well I say pooo. We have been playing with an LS family concept motor.
What would you say to the following new turnkey engine for 15,950?


All aluminum block and heads coated with your choice of color
custom closed cooling system
CMI stainless header system
376 Cubic inch with 518hp.
This is a fully dressed engine with serpentine pulley system.

how about a supercharged 418 cid aluminum engine with 700hp and 744lbft of torque? Max torque of 744 is achieved at 4400 rpms. It develops 700lbft at 2000 rpms!! Boost at 700hp is 12lbs.

The 700hp supercharged engine weighs in at 575lbs; I believe that's about 400lbs less than a standard big block... My next engine in the 22 will be one of the naturally aspirated ones. If anyone is interested in one of these give me a call at Victory Marine 713-910-2000 or email me.
Scot VanAlstine

[VetteLT193]

Impressive numbers for sure. the high boost concerns me though for the lifespan of the engine.

On the new ZR1 project GM had reliability problems supercharging the LS7 427 CID. They opted for the 6.2 and only 10.5 PSI... and that's for a car that runs under 2k RPM on the highway.

Even Merc runs less on their big HP stuff. 1075's @ 12 PSI; 850's @ 8.5 PSI 600's @ 4.5 psi

Of course I couldn't find the 700's for a direct comparison but I assume 6-ish.

Any expected rebuild times, etc? very curious. LSx is a great platform.

[The Hedgehog]

I am obviously a big fan of boost. That's cool.

The NA motor would be dynomite in an 18. Or 22 for that matter

[harbormaster]

Well vette, I hear you, What about the 518 HP one has no boost??

[VetteLT193]

Well vette, I hear you, What about the 518 HP one has no boost??

sounds kick azz. I need one for my Minx. just gotta find some more cash!

[BlownCrewCab]

I was a Huge fan of the old small blocks and big blocks, the thought of them not making them anymore sickened me, BUT, Now that I have screwed with the LS motors I see why the changed, they out class the Gen1's in every aspect. If I built another motor it would be ls based.

[HOWARD O]

sounds kick azz. I need one for my Minx. just gotta find some more cash!

Find a lot of cash and get one for me too! Awesome stuff! I still think the small block/big block comparison still holds true, given you're using the same technology. Otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Donziweasel]

I don't know Howard. I think that you just don't need a BB to get big power anymore and that is why the technology is not making it over to the BB's. If you incorporated the LS technology into a BB, would it make the same power gains? Something tells me no.

The big test is to convince Grizz who has stood by the saying "there is no replacement for diplacement" for years;)

[BigGrizzly]

I like the numbers but not the boost in our application, BUT, I have seen this with very good results. Yes Chevy did have an issue but there is a way around it. As for No replace for displacement. With 11 psi of boost in a 502your up to 900+ ponies. today I was bringing some stuff to Garry and I noticed a 572 on the shelf. I have seen it befor but never though to look at the tag. it said 12 psi boost= 1075 20 psi boost = 1350 then the next line said how much power do you need. This is a marine engine. Torque is way up there. I asked hin he said 12 psi is good no issues 20 you have to watch it and never use less then 93. He told me it twists the #6 in half if you jump on it too fast. That engine twisted the 1 1/2 input shaft off the stern power. I think that some times there is such a thing as too much power-NOT. Back to the LS it really is a good platform. Remember this is not that new a design and most of the bugs are gone. If you can run it O2 controlled in the Marine environment it would be sweet with endless possibilities. I am not saying it will tr place the big block but it could be much better is some applications. I am all for putting one in a 18 instead of a BB, maybe even a 22 or a 27zr. The proof is in the application. It would be interesting to see the fuel usage at 5,500 rpms the number are close to mine at 5,000 Rpms, and that would be a gauge of efficiency. Am I impressed, I would be if I had not seen this before. I will say that Victory is doing a great job with it. The people I play with do this on the national level and are blower specialists. My take on this is if you are looking for 500 reliable ponies in a small block, this could be your ticket to ride. Closed cooling makes it much more desirable. All my boat engines are closed cooling. I will tell you I wil never have a non closed cooled engine unless it is an outboard, and we are working on that too. Thanks for the info Scott, good stuff., but where does a small block become a big block. 416 cid is not small by any means. Remember the old 409, 406, 427, 426 and 413 were all big blocks

[The Hedgehog]

[QUOTE=BigGrizzly;499043] today I was bringing some stuff to Garry and I noticed a 572 on the shelf. I have seen it befor but never though to look at the tag. it said 12 psi boost= 1075 20 psi boost = 1350 then the next line said how much power do you need. This is a marine engine. Torque is way up there.

Noticed a 572 laying around. I love that. I would find myself constantly walking in just to see what was "on the shelf."

[CHACHI]

Not to mention all the extra room in the bilge with the N/A engine.

Ken

[HOWARD O]

I don't know Howard. I think that you just don't need a BB to get big power anymore and that is why the technology is not making it over to the BB's. If you incorporated the LS technology into a BB, would it make the same power gains? Something tells me no.
The big test is to convince Grizz who has stood by the saying "there is no replacement for diplacement" for years;)

Oh no, I completely agree that I'd much rather have one of these in my boat than a 502 or something of that flavor. You can't argue with the weight loss and it puts out plenty of reliable power.

But I don't understand why you wouldn't get an equal percentage of power gain if you were to incorporate this technology into a larger displacement, like you say. I don't get why it wouldn't be a linear scale?

Look at the advancements in diesel technology, for instance. They've carried much of that into huge engines with massive amounts of power. Just thinking out loud, not as if I am ever going to have anything that would require more than these ls' are puttin' out! :smile:

[HOWARD O]

Not to mention all the extra room in the bilge with the N/A engine.

Ken

True, true......

I was thinking it would fit pretty cool in a Cobra too! Just paint a blue oval on the valve covers? :drive:

[zelatore]

True, true......
I was thinking it would fit pretty cool in a Cobra too! Just paint a blue oval on the valve covers? :drive:
Now you've crossed the line. There are some things you just don't do!

[handfulz28]

If you incorporated the LS technology into a BB, would it make the same power gains?

You absolutely would see the same percentage gains. Build an all aluminum BB with 10+:1 compression (requiring 93+ octane), 34+ degrees ignition advance, 1.8 ratio rockers, a hot cam, high-flow heads/valves, header-style exhaust and that motor will make the same percentage gain as a "small" block LS versus an early SBC. Look at Raylar's 525 package...and it makes that power on 87octane and short-runner manifolds. :D because I'm not picking on you.


but where does a small block become a big block. 416 cid is not small by any means. Remember the old 409, 406, 427, 426 and 413 were all big blocks

Let's not forget the 396! I agree...the line is clearly blurred between the legacy SB vs BB and what we see today as a "small block"....with 400+ci. What was the displacement of the first GM "big block"?

I'd like to see a dyno sheet of the NA motor. I'd also like to see a true apples to oranges comparison of 87 octane, "standard" exhaust, LS vs BB.

[Planetwarmer]

Also, lets not forget the Ford 351 C big block.


As I am sure that everyone knows, the reason for a larger block is to have bigger displacement. You are able to fit larger and more heavy duty parts into a big block, thus making a heavier duty engine. Yes, you can achieve similar power out of a small block. But it may be at the cost of longevity. I would say that a 427 big block is probably going to last longer than a 427 small block. That is if all materials are of identical quality.

I would like to see a company warranty a 1,075 horsepower small block!:D

[BigGrizzly]

Lets not read more into this than the Harbormaster intended. Trust me on this HE fully realizes the other options. Also remember that my 502 is mild with 698 HP. We removed 150 HP for durability and idle. We then did the sister motor for the other guy to keep it safe, just didn't work out that way. We made it idiot proof and got a third generation updated idiot. With the 540 Garry makes a 700+ That runs on 87 octane. As for The LS in a Cobra, its been done. there is also one in a 32 coupe. There is also a 5.4 in a Cobra. Both Cobras are repla-cars. He doesn't like to put anything in a real one except original.

[harbormaster]

dyno numbers are forthcoming on the Normally aspirated engine.

[osur866]

dyno numbers are forthcoming on the Normally aspirated engine.
Can we see some pictures of it also?

[Donziweasel]

Hey, I am a big fan of a SB with big hp. The weight savings alone make it very attractive.

So, you take a 500 hp SB and a 600 hp BB, which is faster? I think the wieght savings would call it a draw. 400 pounds difference is a hell of a lot of wieght.

With all the technology going into the LS SB, why hasn't it made it over to the BB?

All I am saying, is if you can get the same RELIABLE power out of a SB as you can a BB WITH big wieght savings, what is the drawback?

[roadtrip se]

Nothing happens with the Flowerpot this year until Jill gets employed.

All the more time to look at stuff like this.

The 500 has to come out any way for structural repair... maybe it finds another home after a little freshening.

Keep chatting amongst yourselves, some of us are quietly watching and learning, gazing and dreaming...

[BUIZILLA]

:umbrella: :D

[Lenny]

The 500 has to come out any way ... maybe it finds another home after a little freshening.


...another home... :) sounds good to me ...

[roadtrip se]

And some of us are quietly building engines already..

I wonder who taught me that skill? (on Ted's boat back at Eufala in 2002 with a set of flashlights, tape, and a straight edge shortly after midnight...)

Shall we schedule yours on the Crit for the JRM parking lot in May? And yes, we are getting better at identifying engine parts painted in black cammo... especially those little side-mounted hair blower looking thingys.

[mjw930]

The NA version sounds PERFECT for an 18 or a 22 and a pair would be absolutely killer in 28ZX :D

I suspect that properly dialed in the NA motor in a 22C would be a mid 80's boat all day long and probably have some pretty nice longevity. God knows what a 28ZX would run with a pair of these, it could be scary ;)

[Donziweasel]

And some of us are quietly building engines already..


Although I like the LS SB, I have busy with my own big block.......:p:D

I wish I could rent Tex for another week to help......;)

Shhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Hedgehog]

The NA version sounds PERFECT for an 18 or a 22 and a pair would be absolutely killer in 28ZX :D

I suspect that properly dialed in the NA motor in a 22C would be a mid 80's boat all day long and probably have some pretty nice longevity. God knows what a 28ZX would run with a pair of these, it could be scary ;)

Oh yeah, the twin ZX idea is a great one.

I know of one that just got a set of 558 hp EFI small blocks put in last night. He should be out dialing in soon. I think he is starting out with a set of 32" props.:drive: He seems to be keeping things quiet for now so I will respect that. He is planning to splash it on Sat.

Let's see, over 1,100 hp in a 28ZX? That's what I am talking about.

[The Hedgehog]

Although I like the LS SB, I have busy with my own big block.......:p:D
I wish I could rent Tex for another week to help......;)
Shhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have to be careful with Tex. He works pretty quick once he gets going. You might go out to pick up lunch to come back and find the engine all hooked up sitting in your boat.

[Planetwarmer]

How about an all aluminum BB!:smileybo:Or Ti if money was no object.:D

[Air 22]

How about an all aluminum BB!:smileybo:Or Ti if money was no object.:D


ANS...;)


http://www.ilmor.com/marine/710.html



not many SB or BB can beat the HP/Weight Ratio here....:D

Mr. X??;)

[Air 22]

Nothing happens with the Flowerpot this year until Jill gets employed.
All the more time to look at stuff like this.
The 500 has to come out any way for structural repair... maybe it finds another home after a little freshening.
Keep chatting amongst yourselves, some of us are quietly watching and learning, gazing and dreaming...


I'm gonna bring a big wheel of Cheeze for u Tripper...excuses, excuses...omg:puke: whats next?? U bumming rides at AOTH??:D...well u can ride w me...show me a few 500 tips...I'll need it:drive::smash::crossfing:

Let Jill stay home and play:)...u get ANOTHER Job so this flower pot crap will stop....:smileybo:

[BUIZILLA]

speaking of small blocks

Mighty Mouse is feeling pretty spunky about now :D :odie:

[Air 22]

speaking of small blocks

Mighty Mouse is feeling pretty spunky about now :D :odie:


Kinks worked out..."Is running like a top":D

[BUIZILLA]

sounds pretty good up to 7500.. :D

[roadtrip se]

I'm gonna bring a big wheel of Cheeze for u Tripper...excuses, excuses...omg:puke: whats next?? U bumming rides at AOTH??:D...well u can ride w me...show me a few 500 tips...I'll need it:drive::smash::crossfing:
Let Jill stay home and play:)...u get ANOTHER Job so this flower pot crap will stop....:smileybo:

Air, I hope you don't need my tow services at AOTH, but keep it up, as I hate to think how expensive they are getting for you right now. I pity you even further, if Buizilla is behind the wheel and he happens upon you... he has learned from the best Jamaican tow boat captains....

Any way, there is some truth to my excuses, this time, on the Flowerpot, but a lot of it is just deciding what to do next with it. An SB is an option, a little freshening from a qulalified hand is another, and there is a mound of Ilmor drawings and info in my fact file.

Keep throwing the trash talk, I need a little more inspiration dude.

Hey, can I have a ride at AOTH...

[Air 22]

Hey, can I have a ride at AOTH...
See post #33 But in case u missed it AGAIN...:uzi:
Yes you have a ride(s):drive: ...I have the Cheese...u bring the whine(wine)...:D:beer:
BTW... I hope I don't need it :crossfing:but my tow memebrship w Boat US is unlimited..........