650hp 22 classic

[cmbracer]

Will it be to much with a Potter 650hp in the hull?
Not planing to upgrade the bravo x drive!

Is it a better choich to whippel a 496" and put on some cmi headers?
By better I mean cheaper/better. If you know what I mean!

I need the engine to sound as healty as possible.

Regards Morten

[Air 22]

Is this where your 650HP engine is made?
http://www.potterperformance.com/

Maybe other's here have more insight on Potter engines...but they sure seem like a solid choice over the 496.:)

[BlownCrewCab]

You can have all the horses you want, that doesn't mean you can use all of them. as long as you know the limits of your driving over the limits of your boat. If you can run 85mph safely theres No Problem with getting there in a hurry, thats the fun part.

[VetteLT193]

If those are the ones they all look very tall, might have to mod the hatch.

Do you have a speed goal, or just want a lot of power?

Drive is an XR or XZ?

[boxy]

Is this where your 650HP engine is made?
http://www.potterperformance.com/
Maybe other's here have more insight on Potter engines...but they sure seem like a solid choice over the 496.:)

Tom A's 38ZRC is running Ron Potter Motors. The Perfect Storm ran Ron Potter's, and Speed Racer is running Ron Potter's.

Typhoon Performance SC has repowered a bunch of Donzi's with Ron's motors.

Send Frank a message if you want some first hand real life opinions. :D

[Carl C]

Seeing SpeedRacer on Potter's web site is testimonial enough for me! That is a no expense spared boat. If you can afford it, go with the Potter. The 496 is not the best base engine to start with. You should probably beef up the engine room floor while you are at it, especially if it is a late model 22C.

[boxy]

Seeing SpeedRacer on Potter's web site is testimonial enough for me! That is a no expense spared boat. If you can afford it, go with the Potter. The 496 is not the best base engine to start with. You should probably beef up the engine room floor while you are at it, especially if it is a late model 22C.

The motors in SpeedRacer were the new motors that never got installed in The Perfect Storm.
I was in the Storm in the 1000 islands PR and the only boat that beat us back to the dock that day was MyWay.
The Ron Potter 1000's were sick, I can not imagine the new motors.

Frank and I were talking about a 26zx that Shogren had for sale a month or so ago. It had a 454 (non Mag) and it was priced around $27K. The plan was to send the motor to Ron and end up with 650+hp in a boat for under $40K total.
I wouldn't think twice about sending a motor to Ron, and if he thought there was a better way to do it (496 Y/N) he'll tell you.

[The Hedgehog]

The motors in SpeedRacer were the new motors that never got installed in The Perfect Storm.
I was in the Storm in the 1000 islands PR and the only boat that beat us back to the dock that day was MyWay.
The Ron Potter 1000's were sick, I can not imagine the new motors.
Frank and I were talking about a 26zx that Shogren had for sale a month or so ago. It had a 454 (non Mag) and it was priced around $27K. The plan was to send the motor to Ron and end up with 650+hp in a boat for under $40K total.
I wouldn't think twice about sending a motor to Ron, and if he thought there was a better way to do it (496 Y/N) he'll tell you.

I don't have any experience with Ron's motors but think that the idea with that 26ZX is a great idea. It would be hard to pull off for less than $40k though although you could technically do it for somewhere close to that. For $50k or so you could pull it off well. That would make a nice project for someone.

[BigGrizzly]

I have that kind of power in my Criterion. My engine is a 502 with a M1 procharger and is carbes. The boat has hydraulic steering- a must and runs 86 mph. I have a soon to be replaced TRS. The bravo can last if you drive nice if not it will come apart quickly. the sister to my motor took out 2 bravos and 9 XRs in a summer. I believe it was pilot error/abuse.

[boxy]

The bravo can last if you drive nice if not it will come apart quickly. the sister to my motor took out 2 bravos and 9 XRs in a summer. I believe it was pilot error/abuse.
Grizz, when my Dad and i were still running our transportation Co, we used to call that type of mechanical failure a steering wheel to driver's seat interface problem......

[BigGrizzly]

Boxy, I like it it. I never liked the pilot error thing, too degrading to all the pilots out there.

[donzi2287]

Randy, You're right, the Bravo if fine as long as they take it easy.:smileybo:

[p729lws]

Will it be to much with a Potter 650hp in the hull?
Not planing to upgrade the bravo x drive!


Why put 650 HP thru a drive rated for 450 HP??? Get an XR...

Dan

[mjw930]

Regardless of the year a 22C will need to be reinforced to handle that kind of power and stress from the speeds over the long run. If it's an older model with a partially cored transom and the wimpy narrow stringers the need to reinforce is even higher. The layup and stringer design on the 22C IS NOT a high speed layup, it's marginally better than a 40 mph runabout (IMHO). Budget at least $5000 for fiberglass work and another $3500 - $4000 for external hydraulic steering over an above the motor and the requisite reversion resistant exhaust. The cost of the motor is only a fraction of the expense if you want a 80+ mph 22C.

Example, I have an '87 22C and I can turn my 7.4L into a 500 HP motor for about $6000 but it will take another $10K in glass work, steering and exhaust to put the package together that I would feel comfortable running with my family aboard.

[The Hedgehog]

Regardless of the year a 22C will need to be reinforced to handle that kind of power and stress from the speeds over the long run. If it's an older model with a partially cored transom and the wimpy narrow stringers the need to reinforce is even higher. The layup and stringer design on the 22C IS NOT a high speed layup, it's marginally better than a 40 mph runabout (IMHO). Budget at least $5000 for fiberglass work and another $3500 - $4000 for external hydraulic steering over an above the motor and the requisite reversion resistant exhaust. The cost of the motor is only a fraction of the expense if you want a 80+ mph 22C.

Example, I have an '87 22C and I can turn my 7.4L into a 500 HP motor for about $6000 but it will take another $10K in glass work, steering and exhaust to put the package together that I would feel comfortable running with my family aboard.

Man, if a 22 is marginally better than a runabout at 40....then I probably should not take my 18 above 30. Hell, maybe I should have gotten a Johnboat.

Dude, maybe you should go back to your Velocity if Donzi's are so bad.

[Air 22]

Wonder what he thinks of our mid-70's 18's??

Don't be so confusing Cabana Boy..u mean mid 70's in year boat? or mid 70's in speed? or both...:)..lol:D..

Flyboy of...I'm just say'n...:)

[The Hedgehog]

Wonder what he thinks of our mid-70's 18's??

Just terrible!!!!

[mjw930]

Man, if a 22 is marginally better than a runabout at 40....then I probably should not take my 18 above 30. Hell, maybe I should have gotten a Johnboat.
Dude, maybe you should go back to your Velocity if Donzi's are so bad.

I really don't know why people have to take comments like that personally?

Perhaps the 40 mph runabout reference was a bit harsh but regardless how dedicated you may be to the brand you can't compare the layup and design of any of the 22 classics with a race layup and IMHO if you are trying to make the boat run 80+ mph you are talking race boat stress. Remember, the basic design of the hull as well as the stringer system was based on the performance envelope and technology available at the time and hasn't changed all that much in the past 30 years. In fact, some of the changes have proven to be detrimental (see numerous discussions of "new" stringer / strake location).

It's not an indictment of Donzi's or classics, they were and are some of the best built boats of their era but the older 22's (I have no first hand knowledge of the 18 or 16) need to be reinforced if you plan on operating them outside their design envelope for any length of time.

[mjw930]

Wonder what he thinks of our mid-70's 18's??

I have no first hand experience with a mid '70's 18 so I would never pretend to offer advice.

I do know how my '87 22C is built and I also have more than a passing knowledge of structural (mechanical) engineering and race boat design.

[cmbracer]

Allways thought that Donzi's were really well build.
The potter engine may be a little out of my league(30k$) and if it's to much for the classic in the first place!!?

A year or so ago I was in contact with Frank (typhon) about his 26ZX. And would you belive this last november I was in Fl. to find me a nice Donzi. Diden't happen....

But I'm still looking.

Thanks for any input

[mjw930]

Both of course. Guess I should have said mid 70's, mid 70's boats...
MJ, not to take anything away from Stepp's accomplishments, (notched transom and pad bottom come to mind) but essentially he has been a custom boat builder, not a production boat builder. Huge difference in build techniques and methods. The success of his hulls on the racing circuit even today is a testament to his designs and quality, but again, custom built stuff. Kind like comparing a Carver (sorry Don) to a Buddy Davis. Both do the same thing, but they certainly aren't the same.
CM, the 22 hull is quite capable of handling higher HP than the factory intended, but as noted here, you should consider that you are going to operate it beyond the original design parameters, and prep it accordingly. No different than if you took your 1974 Vega wagon and dropped an LS-6 in it, preparation is the key :) :)

Scott,

I never mentioned Velocity or Stepp in this discussion and my experience goes well beyond what he builds. Stepp or anyone for that matter aren't perfect, we can talk at length about transom failures and delamination on Velocity's too, they aren't perfect by any means.

I suppose my comments were a bit too cavalier but they had the intended result, to spur discussion and make this person aware that putting a 650HP motor in a 22C is more than just dropping it into the engine compartment.

I will agree with you that the basic design of the Classics seems perfectly capable at speeds well above what they could do when designed but it involves some planning if you want to execute it properly. I've seen more than a couple V8 conversions in Vegas, Pintos and other compact cars and although most of them run there's a HUGE difference between a conversion that's been engineered and one that simply supplies motor mounts.

[fast fun 2]

We have a stock XR on a customers 22 with a whippled 500efi. Runs 96 and hasnt blow a drive yet

[mjw930]

Don't be so confusing Cabana Boy..u mean mid 70's in year boat? or mid 70's in speed? or both...:)..lol:D..
Flyboy of...I'm just say'n...:)

Air,

I'm surprised you didn't chime in considering what you felt was necessary to accommodate your 500EFI?

Mr X. could also provide some insight considering his knowledge of the layup and what he did to accommodate his 710HP conversion.

I guess what I should have said would be when you pull your existing motor I would take the time to have the engine compartment looked at to make sure there's been no degredation of the stringers or transom. I would make sure to repair any deficiencies and plan on strengthening the stringers supporting the motor, improving the stringer to transom junction and improving the forward bulkhead on editions without an engine compartment firewall.

[The Hedgehog]

[QUOTE=mjw930;498599]I really don't know why people have to take comments like that personally?

Perhaps the 40 mph runabout reference was a bit harsh!

Ya think?

You actually have some good points buried in there but totally invalidated them by that slam and then wonder why folks take it personal. The only boat you seem to speak highly about is a Velocity so that is why I floated that out there. Evidently I am not the only person that notices that on a regular basis. And yes, after reading some of your comments I get pm from others saying exactly the same.

Now your point about the beefing up the glass is pretty good. It does not necessarily mean that you will blow the boat apart if you don't do it but it would be safer if you spend a bunch of time at high speeds. That being said, I don't think you will spend much time cruising over 80 in your classic. My 26ZX is a much bigger boat and I cruise at 60 or so.

And yes, I beefed up the stringers when I did my 18. Not because I was worried one bit about having a 70+ mph 18 foot boat with 350 hp (read not your mother's runabout) but because I already had it torn down and: A. New it certainly would not hurt B. I never know where I may want to go with things so if I wanted more power later thought it would be a good idea.

Now if you went on a Porsche forum and called one of their cars an over rated VW, do you think that they would take it personal?

[BigGrizzly]

MJ930, I understood what you were driving at, but it took 3 reads. Just come out and say what you mean and direct it to the point of question. I personally enjoy your posts. You know what you know and more importantly you know what you don't know, a rarity in today's world. Discussions are good. Just so everybody knows I did strengthen my stringers.

[mjw930]

Sorry guys for the hyperbole.

It's been an challenging week for me professionally and I tend to take it out in the wrong places, sorry!

My point was simply as stated in my last post, make sure you evaluate the condition of your boat and get some advise from someone who understands what's needed to support this kind of power before you drop the motor in.

[BigGrizzly]

Do not worry about it, this is not a grudge board, I am probably the only one who did not have a terrible week, so far.:p

[The Hedgehog]

Sorry guys for the hyperbole.
It's been an challenging week for me professionally and I tend to take it out in the wrong places, sorry!
My point was simply as stated in my last post, make sure you evaluate the condition of your boat and get some advise from someone who understands what's needed to support this kind of power before you drop the motor in.

No worries and that is a very good point

[Air 22]

Air,

I'm surprised you didn't chime in considering what you felt was necessary to accommodate your 500EFI?

Mr X. could also provide some insight considering his knowledge of the layup and what he did to accommodate his 710HP conversion.

I guess what I should have said would be when you pull your existing motor I would take the time to have the engine compartment looked at to make sure there's been no degredation of the stringers or transom. I would make sure to repair any deficiencies and plan on strengthening the stringers supporting the motor, improving the stringer to transom junction and improving the forward bulkhead on editions without an engine compartment firewall.

MJ...in another thread.... http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54786&page=4 all you mentioned above was done and then some:wink:...with pic's:)...not to mention the Transom is now tied into the stringers properly. The entire transom, and stringer system was replaced and improved specifically for the HP500EFI:D Thanks:)

[roadtrip se]

and Yes, I am looking at some structural work on my 2001 22, but you know what, I don't think it has anything to do with the construction of the boat.

The hull has 260-ish hours on it. A couple of cracks are appearing on the port side.

Might have more to do with running it in six-sevens on Lake Michigan or launching it ten+ feet in the air on Lake St. Clair. Or maybe the fact that the boat never sees less than 4500 rpms, 80% of the time.

What did I do to prep for the 500? Not one thing. Hell, I still have the rubber motor mounts. Yes, I did do the steering and a bunch of rigging clean-up, but NOTHING to the engine bay.

Man, this thing is such a piece of crap. MP keeps offering me less for it every year, guess I better sell.

Keeper of the Flowerpot...

[The Hedgehog]

and Yes, I am looking at some structural work on my 2001 22, but you know what, I don't think it has anything to do with the construction of the boat.
The hull has 260-ish hours on it. A couple of cracks are appearing on the port side.
Might have more to do with running it in six-sevens on Lake Michigan or launching it ten+ feet in the air on Lake St. Clair. Or maybe the fact that the boat never sees less than 4500 rpms, 80% of the time.
What did I do to prep for the 500? Not one thing. Hell, I still have the rubber motor mounts. Yes, I did do the steering and a bunch of rigging clean-up, but NOTHING to the engine bay.
Man, this thing is such a piece of crap. MP keeps offering me less for it every year, guess I better sell.
Keeper of the Flowerpot...

Priceless:smileybo:

[Air 22]

and yes, i am looking at some structural work on my 2001 22, but you know what, i don't think it has anything to do with the construction of the boat.
The hull has 260-ish hours on it. A couple of cracks are appearing on the port side.
Might have more to do with running it in six-sevens on lake michigan or launching it ten+ feet in the air on lake st. Clair. Or maybe the fact that the boat never sees less than 4500 rpms, 80% of the time.
What did i do to prep for the 500? Not one thing. Hell, i still have the rubber motor mounts. Yes, i did do the steering and a bunch of rigging clean-up, but nothing to the engine bay.
Man, this thing is such a piece of crap. Mp keeps offering me less for it every year, guess i better sell.
Keeper of the flowerpot...
lmao... :D