From the new York Times..9-30-99

[Last Real Texan]

what the Hel.....llllllll..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!:bonk::bonk::bonk:Double click it or no full screen and difficult to read

Tex

[The Hedgehog]

One of the steps of the beginning of the end.

[chappy]

Definitely one of the most profound things I've read in regards to what we're facing.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

Link above to make the reading easier.

[MOP]

Thanks for posting that!!! Gee can the liberals still blame the Bush admin for the mess that the Dems made and fought to keep in place several during the early 2000's. And now they are trying to give a death blow to our country with the stimulation of theirs and big biz pockets!!! Gee reward the buggers that caused the mess, they knew this stuff would come out sooner or later that is why we have an untested & somewhat unknown leader they needed this move to increase their power base!! Use your head and think about that one just a little!

[Last Real Texan]

Definitely one of the most profound things I've read in regards to what we're facing.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

Link above to make the reading easier.
Thank you!

[HOWARD O]

Gee can the liberals still blame the Bush admin for the mess that the Dems made and fought to keep in place several during the early 2000's.

No, they never rightfully could.....we've known this all along. Not only are the liberals to blame, they will rub your nose in that fact too. I was expecting to see TODAY'S date on that article actually, wouldn't surprise me to see them do it all over again. The stimulus package will see the same fate, only on a totally unimagineable scale. :frown:

[tmdog]

Geeezz. . . . . Don't you guys ever get tired of carrying water for political parties?:confused:

[HOWARD O]

Geeezz. . . . . Don't you guys ever get tired of carrying water for political parties?:confused:
This post may get deleted, but I don't give a *&(#, I don't take this crap lying down. Let me explain something to you since you obviously never took a political science course or even a civics class in your life. We have two major political parties in this Country, Democrat and Republican. My political and moral ideology is certainly more inline with that of the Republican Party and I pretty much disagree with everything that today's Democratic Party stands for. I have major disagreements with the so called Republicans of late as well.

Having said that, I do have an opinion on the direction our Country is taking right now. While neither Party is even close to being qualified to saving our failing economy, I do believe the Democrats are in the process of destroying every great American institution.....at least as I knew them growing up.

So, to finally answer your thoughtful question, NO, I do NOT get tired of carrying my OWN water based on MY OWN political ideology and moral compass. Unfortunately, there's strength in numbers and given we have a 2 party political system, I need to align myself with one so something can get done.

I can only take from your question that you're one of 2 things; someone who is completely indifferent to politics and the turn our nation is facing.......or you're a liberal and are getting tired of getting hit with hard truth about how stupid and scandalous your cohorts in the Democratic party. I am going to guess the latter, but that doesn't matter. What really confuses ME is the fact that we are here, in the "Whatever you want to talk about" forum and you have the nerve to complain about someone else's opinion and decline to state your own.

You've got choices! Jump in the game and state your own opinion, keep your mouth shut OR just don't read the thread at all! But don't come in and insult me and everyone else by saying we're "carrying the water" for some particular party. Anyone that comes in and joins the conversation, whether they be liberal or conservative, has my respect. Don't you think you should at least earn the respect by backing up your statement with some reasoning? Otherwise, your post is just :lame:

[tmdog]

I only asked a simple question contained in one sentence and you response to me was that I'm a uneducated liberal. Since you derived this from my simple sentence, now it is my turn. You attempted to analyze my political beliefs and education that you get a grade "F".
Judging from your response which was laced with dislike and hatefulness toward anyone that diagrees with your political ideology. You are what I characterize as the "playground bully". Also this hate has spread to other aspects of your life, resulting in friends who detest you for your know it all attitude. Anyone who disagrees with Howie and he gathers up two sticks, a hammer and a keg of nails.
I am beyond your years and played the political game in my younger years and learned that the suits change but not the players. No political party can be defined as our savior which you will learn someday, sonny.
Howie, you have to shelve the hate otherwise your type of politics is similar and has been practiced in the past. For example, your avatar without the slash.
So keep hauling that water Howie, but you will never fly the flag higher than me.:yes:

[HOWARD O]

"Geeezz. . . . . Don't you guys ever get tired of carrying water for political parties? "

That's a simple question? Please, and I know it's difficult for you, but try to be honest at least with yourself. What you said was an insult that was hardly masked in the form of a question. So now that you were called on it, you run around like a woman with her hair on fire and cry that I am full of hatred and the playground bully. So now I must respond, piece by piece, to your blathering tirade:

Judging from your response which was laced with dislike and hatefulness toward anyone that diagrees with your political ideology. You are what I characterize as the "playground bully". Also this hate has spread to other aspects of your life, resulting in friends who detest you for your know it all attitude. Anyone who disagrees with Howie and he gathers up two sticks, a hammer and a keg of nails.

Dislike and hatefulness? I am scouring through my post, trying to find this dislike and hatefulness. I did say that I disagree with pretty much everything the dem party stands for. Dislike? Yes! Hatefulness? Not even close. I did say that your cohorts in the dem party were stupid and scandalous. Dislike? Yes! Hatefulness? Far from it.

As for my friends detesting me because I am a know it all.......that couldn't be further from the truth too. Most all of my friends are much smarter than I am. I know it, they know it and we all seem to get along just fine!

I am beyond your years and played the political game in my younger years and learned that the suits change but not the players. No political party can be defined as our savior which you will learn someday, sonny.

Again, "Pops", you need to put your bifocals back on or work on your reading comprehension. Here are some quotes from my post that plainly REFUTES everything you just said:

"While neither Party is even close to being qualified to saving our failing economy, I do believe the Democrats are in the process of destroying every great American institution.....at least as I knew them growing up."

Where did I say that a political party would be our savior? Hmm??? What I PLAINLY said was that I have my own core of beliefs and am faced, like any other American, to choose a party that is more inline with my beliefs than the other.

So, tmdog, you've miserably FAILED on calling me to the carpet because everything you've accused me of saying and of being can be totally refuted. You either didn't read it very carefully, read into things that plain just aren't there or.....and I hate to get back to this, but you're a liberal with no argument to the facts and you choose to use insults to get across WHATEVER POINT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE!

Maybe in your next post you can enlighten me on the direction YOU would like to see America go, I'm all ears.
And, with all due respect, don't use the "my flag flies higher" crap either, that's a used up tactic and, more to the point, I don't believe I EVER questioned your patriotism. For someone so "beyond" my years, that was pretty juvenile thing to say, in my opinion.

If someone else here deems that my post was filled with hatred and I was being a bully, please let me know. I didn't start out with the personal insults, that I was "carrying water" for anyone or anything. All I did was defend myself from tmdog's insult, veiled as a "question". :garfield:

[roadtrip se]

pretty much point out why we are, and where we are, in this country today.

Everyone wants to shift blame for the screw-ups, nobody is looking for middle ground for solutions to our problems, and we are now red and blue, when we all used to be red, white, and blue.

I am tired of both parties, I am tired of the finger-pointing and baiting, and most of all, I am very tired of the negativity that exudes from both sides.

Nobody has solutions, they just want to play the blame game and they do not ask questions of the rhetoric, that comes out of your chosen party or biased news source. It is total crap.

What I do not see occurring on this little piddly boating forum is real discourse, except on the very rare occassion. What I do see is the reporting of bad news that I can get just about anywhere else on the web and then a big finger of blame.

Okay, we are here, plenty of blame to share. Yes, the lender policies started to go lose before Bush. Now, the obvious question, why didn't Bush and his party recognize the doom and try to do something about it over the eight years he was in office and had favorable majorities at times in the house and the senate?

Better yet, instead of attempting to assess blame for stuff that already has left the station, what do you suggest we do to fix it?

And then we can move on to the socalization of health care, free college for everyone, the greening of the planet, and the overhaul of the tax burden that appear to be the covenants of this new administration. I frankly don't care for any of the approaches that have been proposed to roll these out, and I'm thrilled, if its possible as a side benefit, that the Big O is going to have to focus on the economy before he can begin to focus on these areas.

So in the mean time, the conservatives and moderates have a chance to come up with alternatives. What would you do, besides continuing to throw assorted stink bombs at each other? Is that all you have? If so, as I have already said a couple of times here, please stop, it is getting repetitive.

[Ghost]

(First, I see Roadtrip just slipped a note in that I haven't read yet--what's here has nothing to do with that post).

What I found curious about this thread was that I strongly suspect that as contentious as it has become, I doubt the players would necessarily disagree about any of the specifics.

I wrote a REALLY long, STRIKINGLY clear, and INCREDIBLY tactful post as I pondered this, which I've since junked in favor of brevity. :wink: So, as I offer a couple of thoughts--please take my word that they wouldn't have pissed ANYONE off in my prior post. I swear. It just would have taken an hour to read.

I have noticed a trap that's easy for me to fall into, and others as well it seems. It is that in this polarized political climate, criticism of the actions of one of the 2 major parties is interpreted as support for the actions of the other. This is faulty logic, but people naturally assume it all the time. (I say 'actions' very deliberately, as the rhetoric of both parties seems to have little to do with their actions.)
Sometimes people are right in inferring the criticizer of an action of one major party is advocating the other party, and sometimes not. But in a forum like this, it strikes me as a total death trap for useful debate. We do better to stick to what people actually write, and truth must rule over all. Which includes acknowledging the evils or good of either party (and other parties, for that matter). And even those who gripe about only one party, if they will openly acknowledge the evils of the other, may be reasoned with. There are plenty of evils to go around, I think.
Anyhow, I feel like that had a lot to do with where this thread got contentious. As I said, it's an easy trap to fall into, and I often find myself having to work to avoid that very mindset and to stay focused on what folks actually write.

FWIW,

Mike

[HOWARD O]

"Okay, we are here, plenty of blame to share. Yes, the lender policies started to go lose before Bush. Now, the obvious question, why didn't Bush and his party recognize the doom and try to do something about it over the eight years he was in office and had favorable majorities at times in the house and the senate?"
I sure do remember when they were trying to do something about it. Some might have missed it because they found the bickering "repetitive". :lookaroun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

[HOWARD O]

(First, I see Roadtrip just slipped a note in that I haven't read yet--what's here has nothing to do with that post).

What I found curious about this thread was that I strongly suspect that as contentious as it has become, I doubt the players would necessarily disagree about any of the specifics.

I wrote a REALLY long, STRIKINGLY clear, and INCREDIBLY tactful post as I pondered this, which I've since junked in favor of brevity. :wink: So, as I offer a couple of thoughts--please take my word that they wouldn't have pissed ANYONE off in my prior post. I swear. It just would have taken an hour to read.

I have noticed a trap that's easy for me to fall into, and others as well it seems. It is that in this polarized political climate, criticism of the actions of one of the 2 major parties is interpreted as support for the actions of the other. This is faulty logic, but people naturally assume it all the time. (I say 'actions' very deliberately, as the rhetoric of both parties seems to have little to do with their actions.)
Sometimes people are right in inferring the criticizer of an action of one major party is advocating the other party, and sometimes not. But in a forum like this, it strikes me as a total death trap for useful debate. We do better to stick to what people actually write, and truth must rule over all. Which includes acknowledging the evils or good of either party (and other parties, for that matter). And even those who gripe about only one party, if they will openly acknowledge the evils of the other, may be reasoned with. There are plenty of evils to go around, I think.
Anyhow, I feel like that had a lot to do with where this thread got contentious. As I said, it's an easy trap to fall into, and I often find myself having to work to avoid that very mindset and to stay focused on what folks actually write.

FWIW,

Mike

Maybe I'm not mature enough to NOT fall into that trap, as you say. I also believe much of what you say is probably true!

However, I can respect a good debate and respect someone else's opinion, even if it's a polar opposite to mine. What I do NOT respect is a one sentence drive-by shooting and then the shooter getting pissed off when he actually gets shot at! Gimme a break already! That's :lame:

And Roadtrip's assertion that we shouldn't say a thing unless we are offering a solution is bogus too. I am NOT a financial genius or an economic professor. I'm not a rocket scientist either, but if I see a rocket that's on it's launch pad upside down, I might mention that fact to whomever may be listening. No different here I would think.

But until they change the name of the forum to "whatever Roadtrip SE wants to talk about", I am going to speak my mind and I'll do it in a civil manner unless I am clearly, personally insulted. :yes:

[DonziJon]

You know what: After I Ripped Roadtrip a few days ago I had some reservations...I thought..maybe I was wrong. ....I almost felt a little guilty...had I mis-conscrewed.... maybe got it wrong? NAH. I didn't get it wrong. I'm waiting for Roadtrip to state HIS ideology...He likes to rip other people but never says what HE IS.....:confused:

When I went out on a limb to RIP Roadtrip, there was not much support. That's OK. Conservatives pretty much keep their mouths shut. That's what conservative is. "Keep your mouth shut and hope for the best.....Real People will see...and it will all work out".

I support Howie. Maybe some other Conservatives on this board will come out of the closet..Speak Up..Make Noise.. and support other conservatives.

There are a few here that speak out....I'm not going to name them. Conservatives need to get VOCAL. Don't be ashamed to be conservative. :) John (CONSERVATIVE)

[BUIZILLA]

I do believe the video in post #15 to be accurate and a true reflection of the analogy of events... that Fannie fiasco with Barney at the lying helm cost me a LOT of weekly contributions over 10 years, so suffice it to say I am mega pissed off. EVERY single supporter of Franklin Raines and FM on Congressional tape, is black... nah, racism doesn't exist here.... I'm not going to add any more than that..

[The Hedgehog]

Man, why is it beat up on Todd day.

No we don't see eye to eye on all issues. Yes, I am conservative and proud of if. Yes, I am scared at some of the stuff our socialist president is cramming at us right now.

Yes, I think that everyone should speak their opinion. Stick to the big points, there are plenty of them but don't drone on and on.

Those points being said, I can tell you that we have WAY too much negative rhetoric going on these days and that is slapping all of our balance sheets right not. Both sides of the table are spending a good bit of time swatting at flies.

[roadtrip se]

more name calling, more negativity, more blame game, and just more crap.

C'mon you two, don't you have an original thought? Go hit Google for it if you must... Eight minutes of You Tube to explain away eight years of inaction by the Bush administration is lame.... plenty of blame to go around even if the Dems get credit for starting this mess, the Repubs had plenty of time to stop it.

As for my views, when you guys can start a thread and not flame everyone who throws a differing point up, then I'll be happy to participate. In the mean time, keep throwing the dirt up because it is as about as relevant as the rest of the garbage heap of despair you guys keep throwing out here....

[Ghost]

(Either way, here I go again...)

CAVEATS
First, no one who hasn't been following this thread should read this post. <Cartman voice> Seriously.

Second, it is debatable whether anyone who has been following this thread should read this post. <Cartman voice> Seriously.

Sometimes I write just to clarify what I actually think, and this is absolutely one of those times. Since I bothered, perhaps foolishly, I figured I would share my thoughts for any who were interested. For those who aren't, save your self the time and aggravation. I don't expect anyone to actually read this.

THE $HIT I DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE TO READ
I am fond of saying that only the first turd in the punchbowl really changes anything. In this thread, I believe reasonable people with different perspectives might argue about which was first here. I don't want to get into that and will not state a position on it.

Rather, for clarity, I will offer a few observations which I hope may be useful and judged on their own merits, to the end of refining discussion.

I did not understand the comment about "carrying water for political parties" in the context of the NYTimes article at the start of the thread, because I coudln't see where it addressed the specific topic at hand. If you don't see what I mean right off the bat, try to imagine how it would have landed if this was the first thread ever. It can only make sense if there is some history not seen in the thread.

I believe I can understand what was intended about "carrying the water" in the larger context, essentially that some people always post things that rail on one party. Part of what I intended with my first post in this thread (that, in hindsight, may have been too vague) was that I don't see railing on the misbehavior of one party necessarily as "carrying water" for the other major party when the posts contain good information. And what I thought was useful about the Times article (and also about the 8 minutes of YouTube) is that it furnished what so many of us lack: timely, handy, direct evidence of politicians lying to us now by recalling what they actually said and did a few years back.

It's not easy for the average joe to dig up old newspapers and articles and video clips. And when someone, anyone, takes the time to do the homework or share it, it's great stuff in my book. It may not give the whole picture, but who can always do that? And it doesn't bother me if people furnish good information that always criticizes one major party and not the other. If the info is good, it is good. Even if it is incomplete. And I am appreciative of it, even if it is repetitive in that regard. (If the information is incorrect or useless, fine, just say so and why, and that's helpful too.)

Now, if people are unwilling to honestly acknowledge and evaluate good information that crtitcizes "their" party, that's another story. But I didn't see that in this thead when the "carry the water" comment was made.


So, I guess my take on the "carry the water" comment is that if anyone wants to make a case for that, okay, but I think:
The thread choice might have been better
Some supporting evidence or context might have been better
Or at least an acknowledgement of the original article that the thread was about. Like, "this is true, and the Dems have lied a lot about what they pushed Fannie and Freddie to do and how it contributed to the financial meltdown, but I still think you've been overlooking where the Reps were complicit...", and then some further information.
In particular, where useful original source material is furnished, maybe appreciate the material a little more, even if it fits a pattern of railing on one party. So long as people will kick ideas around reasonably, and consider logic and truth, it's all good. Only when people cross the "my $hit doesn't stink" line does the discussion get useless. I've said before that I hate how James Carville treats debate like war, and won't even acknowledge that the sky is blue. To me, this sort of intellectual dishonesty is what should stop debate--you can't reason with an alligator. But I didn't see that here, and it went off the rails anyhow, perhaps more because of a little miscommunication, excess inference, and tone.
THIS WAS FUNNY, REGARDLESS OF INTENT :D
On a side note, defending:

"Geeezz. . . . . Don't you guys ever get tired of carrying water for political parties?"
With:

"I only asked a simple question contained in one sentence and..."
I found this "defense" HILARIOUS and ingenious if intended as humor, but I couldn't take it seriously as an argument--am I wrong? (Was it even meant as one? I'm not sure I know.) I mean, isn't the original post a bit like asking the simple question "when are you going to stop beating your wife?" Really more of a statement that someone IS carrying the water than it is a question about anything. Seriously though, ya gotta admit this would be funny as he11 if intended as banter.

GOING FURTHER OFF THE RAILS
To be fair, I think the response to the "carry the water" comment was completely littered with over the top commentary that was personal and only served to further derail the thread. Which was too bad, because otherwise, the thrust of what was said made pretty good sense to me. Imagine how much more productive it would have been, stripped of the vitriol. (Or at least better organized, like this):

Dear Sir,

I had a couple thoughts based on your above post.

1. Admittedly, my political and moral ideology is certainly more inline with that of the Republican Party and I pretty much disagree with everything that today's Democratic Party stands for. I have major disagreements with the so called Republicans of late as well, who in large measure have abandoned their principles.

Having said that, I do have an opinion on the direction our Country is taking right now. While neither Party is even close to being qualified to saving our failing economy, I do believe the Democrats are in the process of destroying every great American institution.....at least as I knew them growing up.

So, to address your question, I see myself only as really carrying my own water based on my own political ideology and moral compass. Unfortunately, there's strength in numbers and given we have a 2 party political system, I need to align myself with one so something can get done. And admittedly, I also am uncomfortable with settling for the lesser of evils, but I don't see any better options now.

But anyone that comes in and joins the conversation here, whether they be liberal or conservative, has my respect. Would you mind following up your post with some information about how you arrived at your conclusion, so I may better understand your position? Otherwise, I fear your post risks turning debate into over-generalization and name-calling.

2. Go F### yourself, you tits-on-a-bull-useless drive-by-posting liberal douchebag.

Your thoughts are appreciated. (If you don't mind addressing the above points 1 and 2 separately, I think it will facilitate discussion.)

THE END IS NIGH
Anyhow, fool that I am, I hope this is useful in some way, as I really doubt the folks here would differ much on the facts involved, if attention stayed focused strictly on the truth of them, and analysis of them. Toward that end I took this stab. It may have been foolish, but WTF. Wiser people wouldn't (and probably didn't) chime in at all, but I find myself on something of a personal windmill-tilt to undo some civilian partisan gridlock, with hope to help us all find the big picture and get at root causes of our big problems.

I hope that none of my thoughts unfairly stepped on any toes--I tried to be very objective in writing them down. And I did so not to push ANY political position directly, but ONLY in the interest of making things more civil, especially when I think the contention seemed a bit needless to me.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome, as always. But if it saves any time, my mother doesn't dress me funny (that was years ago), I do.

Regards,

Mike

P.S. Hey, regarding "Beat on Todd Day", is there a Midwest Donzi calendar that shows this? Because lacking it is my only complaint about my Lake George calendar, and I feel like I missed out on weeks of preparation. :D