Digesting the numbers..............

[fogducker III]

So I got out on the water yesterday, sunshine and about 6-7 deg. Celsius. It got a little windy mid day but soon died down..........I have now tried three different props. Conditions were almost the same for all three, about 1/2' chop, 1/2 tank fuel and just myself in the boat.

Bravo I 24p Four Blade - 70mph @ 4900rpm. Very stable ride until about 60-65mph and then all hell breaks out.............:eek: NOT a good prop for my boat.

Mirage Plus 25p - 71.3mph @ 5000rpm. Again, very stable up until high 60's and then she starts chine walking..........better, but not what I need.....:garfield:

Finally, Laser II 23p - 74.9mph @ 5200rpm. Stable right up to low 70's and then she starts a slow ocilating roll, it doesn't get out of hand but I could see if I trimmed a little more it could........


I have one more prop I am going to try, Mirage Plus 27p Labbed..... but would also like to know about other makes and/or styles/types that are out there that I should perhaps try now that I have a basic base line...?

[osur866]

Hedge has at least one I think you should try. Bill bring that one to AOTH this year. I might want to give it another try. Steve

[gold-n-rod]

Turbo 1.

That's all I have to say about that.

:wink:

[SilverBack]

Has anyone tried a Maximus or a High Five for that matter on a Classic? Just wondering. I don't know if it will be as fast as those 3 blades but I have not tried one on anything yet that is not a heck of a lot more stable. Everyone told me not to put the High Five on my Ragazza and it was like a dream on that thing....Go ahead and let me have it!!! I don't know if BBlades test program is good for Canada or not but it is very cheap. 25 bucks plus shipping. He also has a bunch of other props that you can try too..just a thought...

BTW..do you have a 1 " or 1 1/14" prop shaft?

[fogducker III]

With the Bravo, did you get the infamous "little - no warning, violent hop up in the air and start chine-walking" effect? :nilly: :nilly:

Which is usually preceded by the oscillating roll you refer to on the Laser :boggled: :eek:

Hell on shorts... :bonk: :bonk:


That is EXACTLY what happens!

At around 65mph as I throttle up it "hops" up and then almost right away is at a full blown chine walk, no real warning............:garfield:

I was talking to osur866 (Steve) and mentioned to him that the Mirage Plus 25p still has some rpm to go but I am not 100% sure how far I can "walk" the boat safely yet.......... more seat time in different conditions will help I am sure.

If I can ever get Lenny out I am sure he can enlighten me on just how far these boats can be pushed without being dangerous.........:wink:

[fogducker III]

Has anyone tried a Maximus or a High Five for that matter on a Classic? Just wondering. I don't know if it will be as fast as those 3 blades but I have not tried one on anything yet that is not a heck of a lot more stable. Everyone told me not to put the High Five on my Ragazza and it was like a dream on that thing....Go ahead and let me have it!!! I don't know if BBlades test program is good for Canada or not but it is very cheap. 25 bucks plus shipping. He also has a bunch of other props that you can try too..just a thought...

BTW..do you have a 1 " or 1 1/14" prop shaft?

I have the 1 1/4" shaft, I think at this point I have not had any problems with stability until the last couple of mph and the last few rpms...... I peronally believe those HUGE flat mounted "elephant ear" tabs I have are doing what they are suppose to........:yes:

I would think a five blade is not needed for my type of set-up...:confused: or at least would not do anything extra that I don't already have...

The prop exchange program you mention is interesting, any way of finding out if they cover Canada? Thanks for the input.

[SilverBack]

Yes...go to bblades.com

Brett is the guru over there. He is also the owner I think.... I am sure that he will tell you that you don't need a 5 blade either but he has all kinds of props. I think he has all the Mercury stuff and Turbos and Herings. I bet you would be surprised if you ever did try a 5 blade..they are sooooo sweet and smooth...plus your cruise speed goes up so much....I would run one even if it slowed my top speed down 4 or 5 MPH!!!

[osur866]

my experience with the shorty on the 18 is the 3 blades are going to be the fastest, however there are a few 4 blades that work well also Hedge has a pretty good one that I tried but felt was a little to small of pitch I have one that works pretty well but will get loose if your not on your game. The Fusion worked pretty well the 3 blade tpx was rock soild could take your hands off the wheel at WOF but a tad slower than what I'm running now. I really think with the shorty a 3 blade largest diameter prop works well but I'm still up to try things. I just don't see how a 23p laser II isnt too small of pitch and your netting those speeds, much faster than a 25p M+, makes me think its been up pitched or something. Jeremy don't be afraid to try anything and everything you can get your hands on. You and I have very close set ups and what works for me may not for you and vis versa. Oh BTW what Hedge has was rock solid on my set up to at WFO its a 4 blade you guess what it is. steve

[osur866]

Yes...go to bblades.com

Brett is the guru over there. He is also the owner I think.... I am sure that he will tell you that you don't need a 5 blade either but he has all kinds of props. I think he has all the Mercury stuff and Turbos and Herings. I bet you would be surprised if you ever did try a 5 blade..they are sooooo sweet and smooth...plus your cruise speed goes up so much....I would run one even if it slowed my top speed down 4 or 5 MPH!!!
Yes my 4 blade came from brett and he did well with it, it has its purpose, the 5 blades are way way over kill for our setups!! Steve

[BigGrizzly]

The laser11 confuses me too fast and too small. Was not the bravo1 fun the way it starts. Talk to Lenny maybe he has something that will work. Every boat is different. Last year Steve found the TXP 3 blade handled better then the fusion 4 did. That was the first only time that ever happened That I know of. The 5 blade will not like the small boat. and way overkill.

[fogducker III]

The laser11 confuses me too fast and too small. Was not the bravo1 fun the way it starts. Talk to Lenny maybe he has something that will work. Every boat is different. Last year Steve found the TXP 3 blade handled better then the fusion 4 did. That was the first only time that ever happened That I know of. The 5 blade will not like the small boat. and way overkill.


Your right Grizz, the Laser is a strange animal, Steve and I were talking and figure it is perhaps re-worked to a 24p or a factory screw-up on the 23p? Either way, it has been the best so far, just for giggles I ran the numbers on the "prop slip calculator" the Bravo I and the Mirage Plus numbers were pretty close..........with the 1.50 gears, 23P @5200 with a speed of 74.9 I am getting 1% slip on the Laser II, not bad eh? :eek::eek::eek::yes::wink:

The Bravo I was awesome up until about 65..........:nilly: and then it wasn't funny........:frown:

[Pismo]

Full hydraulic steering and a 3 blade...

[Pismo]

Why do you have the big shaft? XR?

Cool hitting 75 in a stock 18.

[fogducker III]

Full hydraulic steering and a 3 blade...


I have tried a few three blades, which one are you refering to? Steering is not an issue, I added a Mayfair/Hardin Marine set-up and it works great...........

[Pismo]

I am surprised it still chine walks with the added steering. 3 blades are usually the fastest. People love the Turbo props on here but I have never tried one.

[Lenny]

If I can ever get Lenny out I am sure he can enlighten me on just how far these boats can be pushed without being dangerous.........:wink:

Lenny is all about staying warm... :D You are waaayyy braver than I when it comes to cold weather boating :yes: I'll see you on the water in about April.

The chine walk is your eventual enemy. :yes: Slight rtythmic rocking is tolerable.

We'll go out soon enough :) I have a cigarette lighter on my dash so I am thinking about getting a "plug in" jacket.

[BigGrizzly]

Frogger, I will be at Cumberland with a prop testing as usual. Steve and I worked all day on his but that was before Hydraulic steering. If you come it is a good experience. Precision will be there with me or I with them which ever way you look at it. I will look but I think I have a TXP with your name on it or maybe a Turbo. Steve are you still running that labbed M+?

[zelatore]

I am surprised it still chine walks with the added steering. 3 blades are usually the fastest. People love the Turbo props on here but I have never tried one.

Sounds like he's getting exactly what I get in my 22 with a Mirage+ and standard Bravo since I added my steering. It's a slow wobble; nothing dramatic but it puts you on notice to lookout for anything getting worse.

What's wrong with boating in January? I mean sure, it's cold, but 60 isn't that bad.... :wink:

[BigGrizzly]

I don't want to break the news to you guys but the hydraulic steering does not stop chine walk it makes it easier to derive through it. Think about this. This is a rounded bottom when it is at speed, it is like trying to balance standing on a basket ball. It is not like a pad that has a FLAT running surface. It takes finesse to get it right and stay on top of it. After all these years I can't always do it well. I will say that some props are better then others. Remember at speed You can't just point and pull the trigger. Too much trim and water conditions play a big part.

[osur866]

Frogger, I will be at Cumberland with a prop testing as usual. Steve and I worked all day on his but that was before Hydraulic steering. If you come it is a good experience. Precision will be there with me or I with them which ever way you look at it. I will look but I think I have a TXP with your name on it or maybe a Turbo. Steve are you still running that labbed M+?
Grizz, yes it has netted me the fastest speed so far but not a hands off the wheel as the txp as you recall ;) . One thing we didn't try was a turbo Steve

[BigGrizzly]

Steve unless something has changed I think I was there for the TXP run but I don't remember the hands off the wheel trick, but it was a fun day and you drove very well. Now after getting to know you that doesn't surprise me. You are a good ans safe driver.:yes::yes::yes:

[osur866]

Thanks Grizz, it was a great weekend! Looking forward to it in the spring.

[zelatore]

I don't want to break the news to you guys but the hydraulic steering does not stop chine walk it makes it easier to derive through it. Think about this. This is a rounded bottom when it is at speed, it is like trying to balance standing on a basket ball. It is not like a pad that has a FLAT running surface. It takes finesse to get it right and stay on top of it. After all these years I can't always do it well. I will say that some props are better then others. Remember at speed You can't just point and pull the trigger. Too much trim and water conditions play a big part.

In my case at least, the steering seems to have helped the issue by eliminating any wiggle in the drive that was allowing the slow oscillations of the boat to build into a eye-opening chine walk. So it didn't eliminate it, but it did make it into a controllable 'rolling' motion. Of course, if I don't trim the snot out of it trying to get every last tenth of a mph it's not an issue at all.

[BigGrizzly]

Zel, You got it, Controllable, is it. Like a race car If it doesn't handle you can't go fast. As for trim, baby steps, The standard bravo trim is a little fast. The TRS is slower and more controllable. When you get it right an your are on top of it it is a great feeling. Steve I am glad you are making a return appearance.

[roadtrip se]

FD, did you go full to the helm with the steering install or add-on?

[fogducker III]

FD, did you go full to the helm with the steering install or add-on?

I could only afford the "ad-on"..........my steering is good and solid, as Grizz says, the steering is only "part" of chine walking, with some more seat time I am learning to steer "into" the chine walk which brings down the intensity of it, Steve was very helpful explaining this to me, but as I said, I just have to get the feel for how far I can chine walk this particular boat.............:crossfing:

From the sounds of it I am close but will try some more props etc. What do you guys think about trying a "cleaver"...? and if so, where to start??

[Lenny]

Hows about this or this...

http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/maximus.php

http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/5bladecleaver.php

[BigGrizzly]

As I am sure you know I sell props and test for some companies. I am posting this to tell you to try anything you can test and test and when you are done test some more. There are NO two boats exactly alike. There is no such thing as the one MAGIC prop that fits all regardless what prop sellers tell you. I have been LUCKIER then most because I stay in my element of boats I have actually worked with, otherwise I tell them they are in uncharted water. I will say that full hydraulic steering is a tad better because of feel. However what you did is a tremendous improvement. Now it is seat time. Trying to break the sound barrier first shot out of the box is stupid and dangerous. ou learn to drive a fast boat like you eat an elephant-one bite at a time.:yes:

[fogducker III]

Hows about this or this...

http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/maximus.php

http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/5bladecleaver.php


Is five blade not over kill for my application????

What does a cleaver do that a standard blade doesn't...?:confused:

[Lenny]

Is five blade not over kill for my application????

What does a cleaver do that a standard blade doesn't...?:confused:

I LOVE my Cleaver and it is a Merc product. I have no idea what a Cleaver does, just that my boat likes it.

[fogducker III]

I LOVE my Cleaver and it is a Merc product. I have no idea what a Cleaver does, just that my boat likes it.


Is your's a five blade?

[Lenny]

Three.

[roadtrip se]

FD, Grizz hit it on the head. Mid-70's is pretty good for your package BTW.

I would check your cable on the add-on steering as part of your pre-flight. Those things have a lot of play even when they are "solid". A little play and your going to be rocking even with a ram or two outside, because the cable slop makes it hard to react as fast..

Cleavers are very old tech. Yes, they work for some, check Len, but I doubt you are going to have much luck with these on a raised X with the shortie.

A five blade will add stability, but I doubt it is going to help your top end number. You have to have gonzo HP and a very aggressive X, more than yours, to benefit from the extra blades. But, if you want to try one I gots one you could try. Hydro P5 26 with a little lab work. You pay shipping and it's yours to trial. It is actually sitting on the mantle right where Steve's Mirage 28 was sitting last spring.

One other point, and Steve made it, too. Think diameter. The shortie boats seem to like a real big prop, without regard to pitch, in terms of a stability. Everything that I tried and kept seems to fit this rule.... Finally, my best handling props aren't necessarily my fastest.

[fogducker III]

FD, Grizz hit it on the head. Mid-70's is pretty good for your package BTW.

I would check your cable on the add-on steering as part of your pre-flight. Those things have a lot of play even when they are "solid". A little play and your going to be rocking even with a ram or two outside, because the cable slop makes it hard to react as fast..

Cleavers are very old tech. Yes, they work for some, check Len, but I doubt you are going to have much luck with these on a raised X with the shortie.

A five blade will add stability, but I doubt it is going to help your top end number. You have to have gonzo HP and a very aggressive X, more than yours, to benefit from the extra blades. But, if you want to try one I gots one you could try. Hydro P5 26 with a little lab work. You pay shipping and it's yours to trial. It is actually sitting on the mantle right where Steve's Mirage 28 was sitting last spring.

One other point, and Steve made it, too. Think diameter. The shortie boats seem to like a real big prop, without regard to pitch, in terms of a stability. Everything that I tried and kept seems to fit this rule.... Finally, my best handling props aren't necessarily my fastest.


Ya your right on all counts, my cable steering is new and I 'shimmed' the connection at the steering ram, still a little movement but not as bad as original.........I agree with diameter, I will see what Don has at the local prop shop that is perhaps 15".........see what that does, thanks for the offer of the prop loan but after trying a four blade I really don't want to go through that ride again....:eek:

I totally agree that a fast prop is not always the best handling, what I am kinda looking for is a stable, safe ride with fair speed, so far the Laser II has done that.........but there are more to try..........:yes:

Thanks for all your input, I appreciate it.............:wink:

[BUIZILLA]

but I doubt you are going to have much luck with these on a raised X with the shortie. I can emphatically tell you that labbed cleaver on the SS is the MacDaddy sh1t on that LE boat... money was no object and nothing came close, nothing, and I prolly had 12-15 different props on it..

[Air 22]

Fog...Myself and Bob Haver Run the Mercury Racing Labber Bravo's on our 22's and really like them for handling and speed. Not sure if anyone is running them on an 18 but ur welcome to try my Labbed BRAVO I 26P in AOTH. I'm going to be testing all over again as I will be dialing in the 500 in the near future. My 1st prop is a Mercury Racing Labbed 28P(27P non-labbed) that I could only make 4800rpm 74.3 w the 415/502.


http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/bravoisterndrive.php

http://www.mercuryracing.com/propellers/

[roadtrip se]

Cleavers are very old tech. Yes, they work for some, check Len, but I doubt you are going to have much luck with these on a raised X with the shortie.

Interesting editing of my comments their compadre... I stand by what I said... And the SS and Shortie are not the same thing, not at all, which brings up a whole other list of nitpicks we could argue about...

[BUIZILLA]

ain't going there

nope

no way

[roadtrip se]

Agreed.... but what's a little nitpicking amongst friends?

For instance motor oil. The SRT is supposed to take 0W40 Mobil 1.
The stuff is impossible to find. What other weight or synthetic would you recomend?

Now, we can really start nitting....

[Lenny]

And the SS and Shortie are not the same thing, not at all, which brings up a whole other list of nitpicks we could argue about...


OK, I'll bite and send this thread into some non-related fray. :D Sorry FD. So Todd, what is the difference between a 3" shortie and an SS (which is 2 3/4") Shorties have nose cones, so do SS's. For what it is worth, the cleaver and the 8" set-back WERE just the ticket.

The only thing I hate about the Cleaver is the solid hub... :eek:

So, why are these two items not related? (SS and Shortie)

[fogducker III]

Damn, now you guys are going to start talking details of stuff I have no clue about................:nilly::garfield::wink:

At least tell me this before you destroy my thread.............what EXACTLY does a cleaver do that a "standard" prop does not...?

[mattyboy]

now i am confused i thought the cleavers liked running up near the surface, isn't that where a ss or shortie puts them????

[BigGrizzly]

FD, Do not worry, it doesn't really matter that cleaver that Llenny has cannot be replaced. First len set back the drive so it actually digs deeper and in cleaner water. The aspect ratio between the two drives is totally different. They are comparing apples and pumpkins. Regardless of what is said when I postthis I would rather have a IMCO any day, wait until it breaks. FD you have what you have and that is it. Clever is OOOOld tech. even racing circles are going away from them. The other thing is are we sure you have a 3 inch shorty and not a 2 inch.

[Donziweasel]

Cleavers produce very little to no bow lift. Leading edge is formed round and trailing edge is cut straight.

[BUIZILLA]

For instance motor oil. The SRT is supposed to take 0W40 Mobil 1. The stuff is impossible to find. What other weight or synthetic would you recomend? welp, since I bought the LAST 75 cases of 15W50 Mobil 1 here today your not going to find any of that around these parts either :nilly:

[Choprpilot]

A clever provides stern lift which works well on a Donzi especially an 18.

[fogducker III]

I thought I bought a 2"...........never said anything about a 3" I don't think..........:confused:

Either way, I didn't want to waste my time trying props that DEFINATLY won't work so I was trying to get the info on cleavers before I went out to find one........:garfield:

[Donziweasel]

Jeremy, I think you are on the right track. I don't know what you were running that day we were out, but your boat was aired out really nice. I wouldn't mess with a cleaver.

[fogducker III]

Jeremy, I think you are on the right track. I don't know what you were running that day we were out, but your boat was aired out really nice. I wouldn't mess with a cleaver.

Thanks John, it was actually nice to have a set of eyes watching the boat that day, Mark told me the other day it was riding nice when we went out, both times were the Laser II, the more I think about it and research it I am thinking it is a re-worked 23p, as Steve mentioned.....it will definatly be on the boat and available for use no matter what else I try.

I hope I am not coming across as desperate to get more mph.............all I am really looking for is a balanced all around well performing prop, that feels good, safe and solid on the boat and comes in around mid way between all the speeds I ended up getting with the various props I tried and will try......

Right now the testing is the fun part, I am not only learning how to drive the boat in all conditions, I am learning the pros and cons of props, drive configurations and other modifications...... I am enjoying it.:):popcorn:

[BUIZILLA]

does it chine walk with 2 people in it?

[Lenny]

Now I have to open another can of "worms" ...

I wonder IF the location of your tabs, (flat and level to the water, not angled at 24 degrees with the hull bottom) is creating some of your high speed chine walking balance quirks ??? At 71 mine is flat with only a slight, SLOW, side to side roll. That is WITH dragging the port tab a "hair" for balance. Regardless, at 74 I think you are there :yes: :)

I find it ironic that we are about 4 mph apart but I have (had ;) ) a 400 hour 260/HP 350/Alpha SS, 1:50's, 23" pitch labbed Cleaver, (2-3/4" shortie) , running 71 @ 5050 rpms. I am also seeing about 1 1/2% slip at WOT.

You have a low hour, 350HP motor/Bravo 1:50's. IMCO 2" shortie, Laser II 23p - 74.9mph @ 5200rpm. You are seeing 1% of slip.

This is all GPS. Anyways, I wonder about those tabs at SPEED???

[BigGrizzly]

The main reasons for Cleavers is the ventilation shedding properties. As for stern lift or bow lift it is in the blade design. However due to the blade shape and size it is difficult to get a lot of bow lift out of the blade. Now lets consider Lenny's boat with an extension box, a 2.5 short SS drive(with small light and weak gears), old but decent Hydrodynamics, I would that there is nothing in common with Frog's boat except that it is a Donzi 18. I am not a fan of cleavers, they are inefficient. That being said I traveled all the way to Fairbanks AK to prop a boat with twin BF 45 Honda s just to find the best prop was a stock as delivered aluminum Honda designed cleaver. Now for our next trick. Frog you are making good headway. It took me 2 years to get my boat propped to make ME(ke word) happy and I am supposed to know what I am doing and have access to every prop out there, including the famed Merc D. Cavenaugh Labbed prop, which did not fair well, in tests. Every boat is different.:yes:

[SilverBack]

FogDucker..I am sorry for the partial hijack but....If Fog's main objective is not to squeeze out every MPH but in fact is stability, cruise speed and a good all around prop....why is the 5 blade wrong to even try or overkill? I am just asking..I don't understand. I have run a 5 blade on bass boats and on a Ragazza and on my ZX and it seems to have better cruise, better handling and holds the water better in each case. I am not saying that a 5 blade is always better but you could not get me to switch back to a 3 or 4 blade on a bet after trying the five blades that I tried in each case. I am just asking for specifics as to why this is not worth even trying for his objectives. The P5 that RTSE is a semi clever and it seems like some here have had good luck with that design.

Oh yes..I did not even get into planning time and smoothness!!

[Lenny]

What about the tab location ???

[BigGrizzly]

FogDucker..I am sorry for the partial hijack but....If Fog's main objective is not to squeeze out every MPH but in fact is stability, cruise speed and a good all around prop....why is the 5 blade wrong to even try or overkill? I am just asking..I don't understand. I have run a 5 blade on bass boats and on a Ragazza and on my ZX and it seems to have better cruise, better handling and holds the water better in each case. I am not saying that a 5 blade is always better but you could not get me to switch back to a 3 or 4 blade on a bet after trying the five blades that I tried in each case. I am just asking for specifics as to why this is not worth even trying for his objectives. The P5 that RTSE is a semi clever and it seems like some here have had good luck with that design.
Oh yes..I did not even get into planning time and smoothness!!
Don't kid your self what Frog wants is the best handling Fastest prop possible. The facts are a 3 blade is faster than a 4 blade and a 4 blade is faster then a 5 blade. Some boats such as bass boats with Jack plates run such high elevated props their is not enough of prop biting the water and they need a 4 or 5 blade. To get drivable speed. The last bass tornument I was at here on Lanier 98% of the bass boats had 3 and 4 blades, including the merc sponsored team. The high 5 you are referring to is a small area 5 blade and the design was specifically for outboard ski rigs on specific modified V hulls. How many other props did you try on the Ragazza? Example Our beloved Last real Texan was 2 mph faster with the 3 blade than 4 blade. On his 27 pas bottomed ZX. I have done this on my personal boats too as well as many others. I have proved this on many 16,18 and 22 Donzi. I have also done this on other test boats as well including Allesons, Ranger and Tritons, with a few Skaters and Eliminators thrown in. As for holding the water, in theory that is correct at the same time, it is a debatable issue. If what you are saying is true then, That 6 blade you have should be the best planning, better cruise and even smoother too. The p5 is a Hydro and 15 year Old tech and many have discarded them and are being replaced by better options. Another example is Yellors 22 classic, He had a 4 blade Hydro, one of the most popular in the industry, He found his boat handled very bad with it. He even had other members try his boat The same results. He now uses a Marage plus. (threds "you all are liars). Cliff tried the 4 blade on his Criterion and found the TXP hands down a better handling and performing prop. In the case of My Criterion, It HATES bravo1s, Labbed or not. It is not fond of hydro either q4,P5, or P5Xs. And yes I did try a maximus and a OXP too, It wasn't fond of them either. The only 4 blades it did like were the Revolution 4 and the Turbo Fusion, but likes the TXP and Turbo1 better. True this is only one of the several boats I have extensively tested, but your 25ZX pad bottomed boat is a one off too.
Froger should try it there is an outside chance I could be wrong, not likely in this case. Never drive a tractor trailer if all your stuff will fit in a minivan.

[VetteLT193]

FogDucker..I am sorry for the partial hijack but....If Fog's main objective is not to squeeze out every MPH but in fact is stability, cruise speed and a good all around prop....why is the 5 blade wrong to even try or overkill? I am just asking..I don't understand. I have run a 5 blade on bass boats and on a Ragazza and on my ZX and it seems to have better cruise, better handling and holds the water better in each case. I am not saying that a 5 blade is always better but you could not get me to switch back to a 3 or 4 blade on a bet after trying the five blades that I tried in each case. I am just asking for specifics as to why this is not worth even trying for his objectives. The P5 that RTSE is a semi clever and it seems like some here have had good luck with that design.

Oh yes..I did not even get into planning time and smoothness!!

I tried to ask this some time ago, specifically regarding the High Five, but I never got any real answers.

Seems that almost everyone who has tried the high five likes it. And, it is a really odd 5 blade in that you run the same pitch as a 3 blade, so it's characteristics won't be like going from a Mirage to Bravo 1.

It really interests me for the ease of driving aspect. I figure with that style prop I can stick my wife behind the wheel and it's pretty hard to screw up at moderate speeds. It should also offer a really fast cruise which I'd like too.

***edit--grizz slipped his post in while I was responding***

[fogducker III]

What about the tab location ???


I really don't know Lenny, when they installed the new engine and leg they also installed the 17" Dana tabs where they did for some reason.

I really have not had any problems with their placement, because of the size, very little movement makes a BIG difference, after 45-50mph they are up and I do not touch them. I think at high speed, fully up the tabs are doing the job they were installed for, they lengthen the boat and slow down side to side roll........a BIG thing I just realized is that when I get to a point where the boat starts to "rock" I don't have the balls yet to "push" and "steer" the boat thru that initial instability, perhaps if I did and found a happy spot I would be at the speeds I "should" be..........:confused:

The way I look at it is they are more "stability" tabs than "trim" tabs.......if you think about it I have a 19' 5" boat..........perhaps a change in the mounting angle might make a difference but at this point I want to finish testing props, learn how to drive and then if I am not happy I can look at moving or changing the tabs, just not looking forward to filling holes and re-drilling holes etc.....:frown:

[Donziweasel]

Try dropping your tabs a little at speed. Might take care fo the chine walk and shouldn't scrub too much speed.

My 16 chine walks VIOLENTLY at 60 mph. Almost throws you out of the boat, especailly if you turn away from the torque. Drop a little tab, loses 1/2 mph and steady as a rock. Doesn't matter what prop, including Turbo, Mirage, etc......tried a few with the same results.

Of course, I have never seen tabs mounted like yours on a sport boat.......

[SilverBack]

Don't kid your self what Frog wants is the best handling Fastest prop possible. The facts are a 3 blade is faster than a 4 blade and a 4 blade is faster then a 5 blade. Some boats such as bass boats with Jack plates run such high elevated props their is not enough of prop biting the water and they need a 4 or 5 blade. To get drivable speed. The last bass tornument I was at here on Lanier 98% of the bass boats had 3 and 4 blades, including the merc sponsored team. The high 5 you are referring to is a small area 5 blade and the design was specifically for outboard ski rigs on specific modified V hulls. How many other props did you try on the Ragazza? Example Our beloved Last real Texan was 2 mph faster with the 3 blade than 4 blade. On his 27 pas bottomed ZX. I have done this on my personal boats too as well as many others. I have proved this on many 16,18 and 22 Donzi. I have also done this on other test boats as well including Allesons, Ranger and Tritons, with a few Skaters and Eliminators thrown in. As for holding the water, in theory that is correct at the same time, it is a debatable issue. If what you are saying is true then, That 6 blade you have should be the best planning, better cruise and even smoother too. The p5 is a Hydro and 15 year Old tech and many have discarded them and are being replaced by better options. Another example is Yellors 22 classic, He had a 4 blade Hydro, one of the most popular in the industry, He found his boat handled very bad with it. He even had other members try his boat The same results. He now uses a Marage plus. (threds "you all are liars). Cliff tried the 4 blade on his Criterion and found the TXP hands down a better handling and performing prop. In the case of My Criterion, It HATES bravo1s, Labbed or not. It is not fond of hydro either q4,P5, or P5Xs. And yes I did try a maximus and a OXP too, It wasn't fond of them either. The only 4 blades it did like were the Revolution 4 and the Turbo Fusion, but likes the TXP and Turbo1 better. True this is only one of the several boats I have extensively tested, but your 25ZX pad bottomed boat is a one off too.
Froger should try it there is an outside chance I could be wrong, not likely in this case. Never drive a tractor trailer if all your stuff will fit in a minivan.


I tried to ask this some time ago, specifically regarding the High Five, but I never got any real answers.

Seems that almost everyone who has tried the high five likes it. And, it is a really odd 5 blade in that you run the same pitch as a 3 blade, so it's characteristics won't be like going from a Mirage to Bravo 1.

It really interests me for the ease of driving aspect. I figure with that style prop I can stick my wife behind the wheel and it's pretty hard to screw up at moderate speeds. It should also offer a really fast cruise which I'd like too.

***edit--grizz slipped his post in while I was responding***


I tried several props before I tried the High Five......I did not try any after I tried it though...that thing was sooo sweet and smoooooth. It made that big ole underpowered boat jump up on plane. Carry the bow way better and ran just as fast or fast than anything that I tried. I tried Mirage, Mirage plus, Rev 4, A variable pitch Mercury prop that I still have that goes from 15 to 25 pitch. I tried a turbo 1 prop. I would tell anybody that has a 350 mag in a Ragazza to try it. It works on that boat!! My 10 year old daughter could drive it and never think twice about it. It did not have any bad habits at all. It would not run but 45 but that is a big boat for the power. I agree about bass boats. The high five is out of favor because they want to run as fast as possible to their fishing hole and there are faster props for those boats. The high five has a smaller diameter than most 5 blades and the blades are different than the other props that I have seen.

Why would 6 not be better you ask?? It is better than anything that I have tried up to about 75. It planes faster. It cruises faster for the pitch size. It does everything better than any other prop that I have tried except the Maximus. I think that blade area and diameter have a whole lot to do with it also. The same prop with a different diameter sometimes acts like a totally different prop all together!!


Sorry for the Hijack again Fogducker....

[BigGrizzly]

[QUOTE=SilverBack;492568]I tried several props before I tried the High
..I did not try any after I tried it though...that thing was sooo sweet and smoooooth. It made that big ole underpowered boat jump up on plane. Carry the bow way better and ran just as fast or fast than anything that I tried
Why would 6 not be better you ask?? It is better than anything that I have tried up to about 75. It planes faster. It cruises faster for the pitch size. It does everything better than any other prop that I have tried except the Maximus. I think that blade area and diameter have a whole lot to do with it also. The same prop with a different diameter sometimes acts like a totally different prop all together!!
you could not get me to switch back to a 3 or 4 blade on a bet after trying the five blades that I tried in each case. I am just asking for specifics as to why this is not worth even trying for his objectives. The P5 that RTSE is a semi clever and it seems like some here have had good luck with that design.
From Merc web site:
The Maximus is offered in 15 5/8" diameter for go fast step Vee bottoms with high "X" dimension. This large diameter coupled with shortening the diffuser ring is a Poker Runners winning combination. The 15 1/4" diameter is offered specifically for the Shortly Sport Master where gearcase clearance is critical. The 15" diameter is a must for the awesome performance Cats and part of the recipe for top end numbers is to also remove some of the diffuser ring minimizing stern lift all to hit the big numbers. Pitch range is 24" through 35" in one inch increments.
So why haven't you tried the bigger 6 blade, If more blades are better. Maybe more blades will be better for your application, Maybe a herring 6 give it a go.
Vette The High5 was designed specifically around the Searay SKI Ray boat and is an different breed of animal. It is inherently slower but Does have some interesting attributes, Like bottom end grunt that is a little hard on alpha drives. I remember your post on the high5. We both got of on the wrong foot with that one. Try one but try other props as a comparison. There are many other minx owners that don't use them. BTW SB is the only one That I have heard of that the h5 was as fast as other props. I do know that George did do a lot of prop testing on his and I believe ended up with a 3 blade.

[Lenny]

[quote=BigGrizzly;492577 I do know that George did do a lot of prop testing on his and I believe ended up with a 3 blade.[/quote]

4 I believe Grizz... :)

http://www.donzi.net/photos/Rocker_Plates_013sf.jpg

[SilverBack]

4 I believe Grizz... :)

http://www.donzi.net/photos/Rocker_Plates_013sf.jpg


That looks a little bit like a cleaver...poor fellow did not know that he was using old technology!! I bet he would have been fast if he could have found a good prop!!:popcorn:

[Lenny]

He had 30 MPH on you... with 7 less feet.

[fogducker III]

That looks a little bit like a cleaver...poor fellow did not know that he was using old technology!! I bet he would have been fast if he could have found a good prop!!:popcorn:

Lets not turn my thread into a pissing match eh....:garfield:

[Pismo]

That looks a little bit like a cleaver...poor fellow did not know that he was using old technology!! I bet he would have been fast if he could have found a good prop!!:popcorn:


Surface piercing, huge power. Totally different story than a stockish 18 or 22 with a Bravo. No comparison here, what works on this will have nothing to do with what works on a Bravo boat.

[Lenny]

Lets not turn my thread into a pissing match eh....:garfield:


I am kidding Jeremy :D

We all know what he did , and years ago. I agree with PISMO. No comparison, just having fun.

Now, I think we have to look at your tab location. :yes: and as John stated, as he does too, I run a "tad" of tab. You could remove 'em and sea trial that and that will tell you a story or two... whether conflicting or helping...

[fogducker III]

I am kidding Jeremy :D

We all know what he did , and years ago. I agree with PISMO. No comparison, just having fun.

Now, I think we have to look at your tab location. :yes: and as John stated, as he does too, I run a "tad" of tab. You could remove 'em and sea trial that and that will tell you a story or two... whether conflicting or helping...


I knew you were kidding, I was worried about SB and Grizz........:eek::wink:

If I remove the tabs there will be a lot of holes in the transom, one thing I am NOT is a fiberglass/gelcoat guy.........:frown:

[Lenny]

Can you not just remove the tab part or the tab and tie up the ram for a bit?

Which model of Dana's are they. ???

http://www.danamarineproducts.com/ProductGroupCats.cfm?group_id=15&CFID=577251&CFTOKEN=20c452b-6c78ec47-9cdc-456a-8d28-bcf0f185b8a4

Are they the HP750's ???

[VetteLT193]

Vette The High5 was designed specifically around the Searay SKI Ray boat and is an different breed of animal. It is inherently slower but Does have some interesting attributes, Like bottom end grunt that is a little hard on alpha drives. I remember your post on the high5. We both got of on the wrong foot with that one. Try one but try other props as a comparison. There are many other minx owners that don't use them. BTW SB is the only one That I have heard of that the h5 was as fast as other props. I do know that George did do a lot of prop testing on his and I believe ended up with a 3 blade.

I hear ya. I do wonder if any Minx owners have tried the High Five. I really don't have a problem with the 3 blade, runs fine, but I also personally tend to like more blades based on past experience so who knows. I also haven't run the drive with the nosecone so that may change things too even with my current prop.

I know after reading about a million prop threads that they all end up the same. Seat time with different props to find the right one for the individual owner/boat seems to be the only answer.

[fogducker III]

Can you not just remove the tab part or the tab and tie up the ram for a bit?

Which model of Dana's are they. ???

http://www.danamarineproducts.com/ProductGroupCats.cfm?group_id=15&CFID=577251&CFTOKEN=20c452b-6c78ec47-9cdc-456a-8d28-bcf0f185b8a4

Are they the HP750's ???

They are the LT500 I beleive.............I will try what you suggest and temporarily remove them and see where I stand.............:confused:

[smokediver]

It has been my experience with my old 16 that a 23 mirage plus would give you the same speed as a 25 laser2 and a 27 laser2 was about the same as a 25 mirage plus so I am wondering about that 23 laser2 of yours .

[roadtrip se]

I ran mid-70s in a Scorpion 18 and never used the tabs. As a matter of fact, I went with shorter tab stops to get the things out of the water and keep them out of the water. Once I did this, my handling problems stopped.

Now it did not have the shortie leg. But, as unsettled as the boat could get
with just a little touch of tab, I would think that the monster tabs could be creating more problems than they are worth.

FD, I would take Len's advice and take them off the boat, if possible, for testing. Then, if you must have some tab, I would go with something a whole lot shorter and mounted in a more traditional style. Maybe you can sell the Danas to Silver Back. Or at least get some shorter planes from Dana.

As for props, just keep trying them. My experience with the 18 was it ran best with the Mirage 25 it came with.
It liked the Hydro Q4, the Bravo was a disaster, and the TXP really didn't do muuch for it either. If you notice, totally
contradictory advice to other's here.

Now on to the differences between shorties and SS's, Cleavers and five blades, and Mobil One motor oil. What a country!

[Lenny]

Jeremy, I have a set of new Sportabs (Bennett) never installed. They were for my GT-21 but I sold that boat without putting them on. If you feel the need for tabs ;)

The only reason I use my port one at all is because of the lift the right hand rotation provides and my 160 pounds doesn't do a whole lot to keep it down. I use a "smidgeon" on port to fly the boat flat as in level through port and starboard. Bow to Stern I could care less if any of the hull was in the water. :D

Let's see, it is Wednesday, it is cold (ish), high's of 50 this afternoon, some sun, it is not raining so I think you should get to the ramp and have atter :)

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/index.php?product=weather&placecode=cabc0313&switchto=f

[Donziweasel]

and as John stated, as he does too, I run a "tad" of tab.

Agreed, that is one of the reason they are there in the first place why they are there in the first place.

[osur866]

At WOT my tabs are all the way up and I put the shorter upper stops in them so they are high and dry, guess they haven't had the fun experience of flying the thing in the 65+ speeds and landing uneven and hooking a tab yet have they Todd :eek:. I have and I know Todd did in their 18 also! Its a ride I don't care to repeat I'm just sayin! Steve

[BigGrizzly]

At WOT my tabs are all the way up and I put the shorter upper stops in them so they are high and dry, guess they haven't had the fun experience of flying the thing in the 65+ speeds and landing uneven and hooking a tab yet have they Todd :eek:. I have and I know Todd did in their 18 also!

Well Steve you put it down very well . As you know I was one of the first to do this on the site and even made a tool for it. Most people blame the boat, prop and anything but Always over look the tabs. Remember the first question I asked you about the boat? It was about the tabs. The only time That tabs are used in speed is to stabilize the boat before you lift them again. There is one other time but I won't get into it here, For fear of hijacking. Most people don't realize when you trim too high the tabs hit and flex and oscillate and cause the side to side movement associated with chine walking. You see all the race boats running flat, maybe they are on to something.:eek:

[BigGrizzly]

Amazing how useful it is isn't it. !5 minutes and more speed. Of course there is the hydraulic fluid all over Danny day:yes:

[smokediver]

[QUOTE=Lenny;492774] I use a "smidgeon" on port to fly the boat flat as in level through port and starboard.

Lenny .... What is a smidgeon ? Is that more or less than a skosh ? lol ... I asked an elderly captain once how tight to make a certain and rope and his reply was " yank on it til you fart, kid "