TB V back to TB IV?

[HOWARD O]

Now that I am trying to get back into good graces here, time to get this engine running! I am GREEN on ignition problems and here is my puzzler.

As some of you may recall, Cuda dropped in a nice, new TB-V ignition in this 22. I recall he finally got it timed but it was acting flaky, like the advance was jumping all over the place in the mid and upper rpm's.

When I got the boat home, it wouldn't start and was backfiring through the carb. Checked the distributor at TDC and it was off a few teeth. Finally got the initial timing and it was purring nicely on the trailer. I didn't think to see what the advance timing was doing, thought I was good to go.

Put in today for the first time and although I wasn't able to check the advance, I had the same symptoms as Joe at around 3900-4000 RPM where it would continue to fall flat for a split sec and also wouldn't go past 4k. Even the tach would bounce when it happened. When slowing down, it was running rough as heck, as though it was on 6 cylinders and I slowed and stalled in the middle of the river. I believe it's running real lean too. Got it going, but had to keep the revs up all the way home. My first docking with my new Donzi wasn't a pretty sight and although I about ripped my arm out of it's socket, not a scratch to the boat and almost as importantly, none of my neighbors witnessed it! :boggled:

It will not idle now and at first I was thinking that I had a lot of water in the fuel. Put some HEET in the tank and put on a new filter/separator, but doesn't seem to help and the old filter didn't have a lot of water in it either.

I might have an easy out because I have an '82 Wellcraft that I have been stealing a part from here and there. It's got a Merc 454/300hp Bravo with a TB-IV ignition and it's always run well. I figure the Donzi either has a bad module, the wrong module, problem distributor or it just isn't working without a knock sensor hooked up.

I was thinking of switching just the ignition out and keeping the current distributor in the Donzi. But I thought it was odd that the distributor was off a couple teeth when I got the boat and now I am suspect of that too.

What to do and how hard would it be to just change the ignition components without changing out the distributor itself? Remove the ignition module and the piggybacked knock sensor and simply wire up the TB-IV module?

It was disappointing but I must say the rest of the boat seemed to operate just beautifully. Sure like the way it shifts.....no noise, no clunk, just smoooth! :yes:

Anyway, begging for advice!

[Lenny]

My first docking with my new Donzi wasn't a pretty sight and although I about ripped my arm out of it's socket, not a scratch to the boat :boggled:



I can't help you with motor stuff but this line above is the most important thing anyway :yes:

Someone will fix this for you. :)

[farmer tx]

Have you checked fuel pressure? On Don Cigs smallblock 427 he had one of those BLING stainless braided looking fuel lines. Long story short, it was sucking air someplace in the line and would lean out at RPM. You may not have an ignition problem. Also if you suspect water in the fuel bowls of the carb you can get the boat running at idle on the hose and shut the fuel petcock, when the engine begins to stumble slam the throttle open, sometimes this will suck the water out of the bottom of the bowls.

Just a thought,
Mark

[HOWARD O]

Mark, it does have the braided from the filter to the fuel pump, but it's a straight, horizontal shot and not very long. Certainly no leaks.

No Poodle, I did NOT get a Racor. I did go from the 22 micron to the 10 Micron though. I believe I'll install the TBIV today as that's my biggest suspicion. I haven't taken a close look at that module, I think it would probably be a 22* advance which would give a total of 30*, which is pretty conservative but that's okay with me.

[BUIZILLA]

your symptoms are NOT all electrical...

1) if it's a Holley, get yourself a cup (I use the top of a spray bomb) and remove the screw(s) closest to the accel pump location(s), drain each bowl, start for 3 minutes, and repeat once more...

2) is this a mech. OR vacuum secondary carb? since this happens routinely at exactly the same 3900-4000 rpm, I would be VERY suspect of secondary fuel metering problems FIRST, based on what you are saying above...

3) it almost sounds as if it goes into a temporary fuel starvation issue since when you decrease the throttle it wants to stall, if it stay's under 3800 rpm it sounds like it will run all day??...

4) set the startup base timing to 10* initial @ 800 rpm, THEN adjust timing at 3000 rpm to 30* regardless of intial setting, adjust as necessary, do this quickly on a hose or in the water at the dock...

5) report back with findings on my totally uneducated opinions :wink:

oh, and if you can, this will require two people though and removing the engine hatch, plumb a pressure/vacuum gauge into the fuel inlet side of the fuel pump and check for restriction... then move the same gauge to the fuel outlet side of the pump and check for fuel pressure, one gauge can do both functions as the fittings are exactly the same on each side of the fuel pump... the RACOR replacement element is MANDATORY at this point in time anyways... idle pressure should be 3-4#, full/cruising load should be 7#, absolutely not less than 5#...

[HOWARD O]

If you have the Merc base, you can get a spin on racor for it. I have one on the shelf if you can't locate it locally..

Thanks, I believe they did have them at "Worst" Marine, but I went cheap with the Sierra. I'll run this for a while and replace with the Racor next time I guess.

Just removed the TBOLT IV from the other boat, that took all of 1 minute. It's a "V8 24", so that'll give it more total advance....I was hoping that was the one. Only thing is that it was mounted on the riser with the big triangle shaped plate. Looks like the module is riveted on, so I guess I'll have to mount the big plate somewhere "safe" instead of on the dis. cap. 4 wires and a ground, nice and BASIC. :yes:

[KerrLake]

Thanks, I believe they did have them at "Worst" Marine, but I went cheap with the Sierra. I'll run this for a while and replace with the Racor next time I guess.

Just removed the TBOLT IV from the other boat, that took all of 1 minute. It's a "V8 24", so that'll give it more total advance....I was hoping that was the one. Only thing is that it was mounted on the riser with the big triangle shaped plate. Looks like the module is riveted on, so I guess I'll have to mount the big plate somewhere "safe" instead of on the dis. cap. 4 wires and a ground, nice and BASIC. :yes:

I think I remember Cuda installing Dana exhaust. I made a plate that bolts to the riser for the TB.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32759&d=1195005539 (http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32759&d=1195005539)

[BigGrizzly]

I think that BUIZ's plan of attack would be the most logical and free of mishaps. If you shotgun this, it will take longer and something may be missed. It really does not sound like electrics unless you have a semi fouled spark plug.

[HOWARD O]

Jim, this is the Holley HP 500 carb that Joe installed.....it's an 800 cfm. Haven't checked the jetting, although you had given him some jetting numbers to put in it at the time.

Maybe the other ignition had some timing advance issues, but you're correct, at least we can rule out ignition. Put on the TB-IV this afternoon with same results!

Peculiar thing is that when I first fire it up after sitting for an hour or longer, it runs and sounds normal for about 10 seconds, then it gets crappy again. Could it be that the remaining fuel in the carb is dried out and free from water? I know this is grasping at straws, but maybe this gas has a lot more water in it than I thought and by topping off the tank and all the movement of launching, it's really stirred it up? Wonder if I'd get satisfactory results by changing to a Racor?

Nonetheless, I'll check the plugs in the morning and when I can find a helper, I'll follow your instructions Jim. Getting a helper tomorrow might be difficult being Super Bowl!

Thanks for the advice, will report my findings when I get some! :boggled:

[BUIZILLA]

at this point I don't think it's water in the bowls, judging from the way the metering blocks pull idle fuel through the ported channels... wouldn't hurt to get the Racor, mine is a 3220 I think.... came with a metal bowl... there is a different part number for the longer 10 micron but I can't remember if that's what I have now, or not.. i'm almost thinking power valves, not sure if that carb has a secondary valve or if it was plugged, can't remember... what is the list # of the carb?

[CHACHI]

I/O's need a metal bowl. The Coast Guard will make sure of that if they ever invite themselves on your boat.

Plastic bowls are for outboards.

Ken

[BigGrizzly]

I am really get smacked for this but if you were closer I would help I am not a Superbowl fan. and probably won't watch it. Wife is but I would go in the garage and make little pieces of metal out of large ones.

[Ghost]

I/O's need a metal bowl. The Coast Guard will make sure of that if they ever invite themselves on your boat.

Plastic bowls are for outboards.

Ken

What's the rationale behind this? Explosion?

[MR MAGOO]

I am really get smacked for this but if you were closer I would help I am not a Superbowl fan. and probably won't watch it. Wife is but I would go in the garage and make little pieces of metal out of large ones.
I hear ya Griz, Real sports involve burning fuel. Sticks, balls and bats are merely games! :kingme:
...great advice so far, glad to hear you dumped the TB V, it never would have worked properly without the knock sensor.
My advice would be to pull the fuel guage sender, look inside the tank with a flash light and then pump out the questionable fuel.
My next step would be to dump that 800 Holley. Great carb but has no business on a stock 330. The stock Quadrajet works great on the 330. Furthermore, I'd also dump the HP 500 intake. It will be much more user friendly with a stock intake. You've got some big intake port mismatch going on. (330 is oval port, 500 is rectangle port)

Kurt

[zelatore]

What's the rationale behind this? Explosion?

yup.

Actually, it's to prevent the plastic bowl from melting in the event of a fire leading to said explosion.

You can get a metal heat shield that goes around the lower part of the bowl, but I still don't think it meets the specs for mounting in the engine room.

You'd be surprised how many times I've seen non CG-approved Racors installed in an engine room just so they can have the clear bowl at the bottom.

It is nice, but it doesn't meet code.

[Ghost]

Thanks for the response, Z.

Any thoughts if your Plastic bowl Racors are in another section of the boat, out of the engine compartment?

[BUIZILLA]

plastic in the engine room is okay for diesels...

[HOWARD O]

I believe the carb is #80433. It was supposedly a blue one that the previous owner had powdercoated black. Garnering this info from Cuda's previous posts. I agree that the carb is too big. The intake is a Performer 2-O. Joe's plan was to replace this engine with an HP 500 so he figured that he'd be able to switch the intake, carb and Dana exhaust to his new engine.

I had thought of the power valves when I had first brought it home, the distributor was off by more than a few teeth and it was backfiring through the carb pretty bad. Thought it may have taken out the power valve(s) but had read at Holley's website that that was no longer a problem on '92 and newer carbs because of the newer design with a blowout valve of sorts? Also read that you can check the power valves by turning the mixture screws all the way in? This was before I had a complete no-start situation that I finally tracked down to a bad red breaker button!

I changed the fuel separator from a 23 micron to a 10 micron filter, the long one. I'm not real big on pumping out 55 gallons of fuel, especially since it's in the water now. Can I not take a sample and check in a clear glass?

So, I want to reiterate that it WAS running well on the trailer, beautiful idle....although it did have an episode of acting up but seem to clear itself up on another start. That's what made ME think it was electrical and intermittent. I also suspect that the old TB-V was the reason for the miss at 4k rpm too....but that's just a gut feeling.

Another thing. I was tinkering around behind the dash, just in bewilderment of all that original wiring and amazed that it all still worked. I did snug things up a bit by adding some wire ties here and there. I also was checking out the kill switch wiring and see where that harness led. Then Ken had mentioned something to me about grounds and such, even mentioned kill switch. So I don't know if anything I could've done up there could cause any symptoms like this, but I'll give that a second look in the morning as well. I need to get methodical though, sure can't afford to throw parts at it and I tend to go off on too many tangents! :bonk:

[HOWARD O]

I am really get smacked for this but if you were closer I would help I am not a Superbowl fan. and probably won't watch it. Wife is but I would go in the garage and make little pieces of metal out of large ones.

Yeah, I'm not big on the Superbowl either, especially when it isn't a "home" team playing.

I bought the boat knowing I'd be doing a good deal of tinkering. This won't get the best of me by a long shot, I'm sure it'll work it out with "all y'alls" help! :yes:

[BUIZILLA]

I believe the carb is #80433. if my memory functions it should be a #80443.... I think I remember that I told Cuda to drop the jets down to 76 front and 82 rear, 6.5pv up front and a 5.5pv in the rear and see what happened... but I could be wrong on my memory... that's an 850 carb BTW...

[HOWARD O]

I knew Joe was pretty emphatic that it was an 800 CFM and agree, this 80433 is supposed to be an 850. That prompted a search this morning and according to Joe, it's an 80466, which I can't even find listed at Holley.

Here's a link about it and Joe chimed in at the end of the thread:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-q/34552-hp500-carb-jetting.html

[BUIZILLA]

never seen an 80466... much less an 80433.... doesn't mean they don't exist though...

go look at the stampings in the air horn yourself, and check again...

.037 squirter is huge, Dommy's stop at .035 I never understood the Merc wacky spread in jetting for an open plenum either, unless Merc was trying to ...... whatever they were trying to do... if you add up the port vs stb total jet flows you get 170 vs 168 so at WFO it's about 1% variance...

I am very curious what the high speed air bleed sizes are now

BTW.... did you remove the checkball and spring from the tank fitting elbow yet? if not, that's TODAY'S project for you...

[HOWARD O]

BTW.... did you remove the checkball and spring from the tank fitting elbow yet? if not, that's TODAY'S project for you...

The HUH? :nilly: Well, I know where the elbow is and it's easily accessible. If it's there, it won't be much longer! I'll get info on the carb as well. In the 60's today and finally got the boat on my lift this morning. Old boat now exposed at the dock, it's not happy about it.....but it knows it's place in life!

[BUIZILLA]

it will be the horizontal fitting that screws into the elbow/pickup tube itself...

[HOWARD O]

it will be the horizontal fitting that screws into the elbow/pickup tube itself...

Didn't get to the checkball and spring. Stole coil off old boat....no joy, same same. Pulled the new plugs I put in a few weeks ago, fouled and oil soaked, no surprise. At that time, I couldn't get the MR43TS so I went with NGK UR5 (which x-reference to R43TS), gapped at .035. Poodle said he was running them in the thread referenced below. The MR is no longer available, looks like for Delco you have to get "CR", designated Commercial. If I can't find those, maybe I'll just put in the R43TS until I can get the commercial jobs.

Pulled number off top of carb:

6R 3767 B

Searched Holley and found no reference, did a Google search and only came up with one reference to this number here. All it told me was that it's a 4150 series and we know that already:

http://stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43280

Also, here's Cuda's original thread on this carb. There are a couple photos of this carb in his first post:

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47110&highlight=carb

So I had best check the jetting, power valves, etc. on this carb before I proceed with anything? Could it be that it's not jetted properly, fouled plugs and has run like crap thereafter? :cool:

[VetteLT193]

here's a stupid check...

Figure out where the secondaries are open in relation to position of the throttle lever. Use painters tape, or something like that, to give a real indication.

Run the boat, do your problems start when the secondaries are open but not otherwise? The easiest cheat for a way to big carb is to open the secondaries late, so they might be kicking in and the engine is going nuts.

That carb is so big for the engine it probably runs great on 2 barrels :bonk:

[BUIZILLA]

The C is for copper core on the spark plugs

[HOWARD O]

The C is for copper core on the spark plugs

Oh, I got the wrong info on that one then!

Say, how well will an engine run with blow powervalves? This thing doesn't even idle well enough to set the initial timing. I read on Holley website that you can test them by turning your idle mixture screws all the way in. If the valves are good, engine will stall out. I just did this and the engine continues to run the same. Whaddya think about that?

[BUIZILLA]

I think you've got a bad carb :yes:

[HOWARD O]

Could be, doubt it.......but I am sure going to replace powervalves tomorrow. I asked "the internet" what symptoms of blown powervalves were and it came back with rough idle, pig rich, dumping excessive fuel while idling, etc. These are dead on to my symptoms and since I initially had some severe backfiring episodes when I first got it, adds up.

So now I am going to remain satisfied this evening that I've figured it ALL out and hopefully not be disappointed tomorrow! But usually when a light goes off in my head that says, "that just HAS to be it, yippee!!!", I am in for a disappointment! :bonk:

Nonetheless Jim, I do wish to replace this carb to something much smaller. Randy said he runs a 650 but he's got the jetting really dialed in. Could I get by with a 650 too? Reliability is KEY, above all else!

[HOWARD O]

By the way, when it is idling, or trying to anyway, fuel is just dribbling heavy down the throat, no atomization going on whatsoever on this thing! Another sign of bad power valve or debris in there or a combo of both maybe? Sumpin' ain't right!

[Ed Donnelly]

That sounds like a stuck float.........Ed

[Trueser]

I have a brand new 650 holley.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52335&highlight=holley+650

$ 225.00 free shipping

[HOWARD O]

That sounds like a stuck float.........Ed

Sure does! I gave it a few taps with my wrench, but darkness was upon me........have to wait for morning. Could it be this simple? :bonk:

Even if it is, carb needs work to work right on this boat. Jetting maybe, powervalves. :yes:

[HOWARD O]

I have a brand new 650 holley.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52335&highlight=holley+650

$ 225.00 free shipping

THAT is a heck of a deal. We'll see how things go in the morning, I can't buy a THING for a little while yet! If it's still available in a week or so, I just might go for it!

[HOWARD O]

Well, I have had a good deal of success this morning. I gave the primary float bowl some taps with my rubber mallet and seemed to help A LOT, but still not well by any means. I actually took it for a ride, but turned around after 100 yards or so. Removed the float bowl and plenty of debris in there. Replaced the power valve (6.5) and voila, HUGE improvement. I was so excited that I took it for a spin w/out dialing in the timing and didn't bring my light with me. It had a tiny backfire while coming on plane if I give it a little too much throttle. Once on plane, it runs okay but the timing needs a slight tweak. However, there is no hesitation whatsoever between say 3000 on up. I got to 4400 without any problem and it felt and sounded strong. It runs better in the higher RPM's than the lower.....but this may be a timing issue. It sounds "tinty" at moderate throttle position, like it's lean.....if that makes any sense?

I guess I'll do the same with the secondary bowl tomorrow and replace that power valve, I think it has one.

Both primary jets are 78 and the power valve is a 6.5.

Also discovered that the water temp gauge is no longer reading, the kill switch does absolutely nothing and while tapping on the float bowl, I shattered the plastic electric choke housing. :bonk: Oh, and the trim switch goes down, not up....although the trailer/tilt button works. Tinker...tinker.....

I wish I had the cash to buy a new carb right now, but that's going to have to wait a couple, few weeks. :garfield:

[HOWARD O]

Ugghhh, while investigating some wiring near the tranny, I discovered a completely disintegrated LAMP CORD! It just fell apart in my hand. I believe it goes back to the outdrive trim sensor. Freakin' lamp cord, what are people thinking? How do you get to that trim sensor to rewire it? My factory TRS manual hasn't arrived yet..... :frown:

[zelatore]

I may well be mistaken, but doesn't the stock wiring on the trim sender look a lot like zipcord?

Maybe it's actually the original cord just in bad shape?

Then again, I don't put anything past the 'DPO'.

[MR MAGOO]

Ugghhh, while investigating some wiring near the tranny, I discovered a completely disintegrated LAMP CORD! It just fell apart in my hand. I believe it goes back to the outdrive trim sensor. Freakin' lamp cord, what are people thinking? How do you get to that trim sensor to rewire it? My factory TRS manual hasn't arrived yet..... :frown:

The trim sender and limit switch wires look just like a lamp cord. The new senders come complete with wireing harness.

On a side note, I'd change the oil asap with all the fuel wash down you had going on.

...and as I said before, that big Holley does not belong on a 330. Find the stock Quadrajet, it will run much better and get better fuel economy too.

[HOWARD O]

The trim sender and limit switch wires look just like a lamp cord. The new senders come complete with wireing harness.
On a side note, I'd change the oil asap with all the fuel wash down you had going on.
...and as I said before, that big Holley does not belong on a 330. Find the stock Quadrajet, it will run much better and get better fuel economy too.

Well, it looks just like brown lamp cord! I guess it's original.....I'll be danged!

I was thinking quadrajet or maybe an Edelbrock? Isn't the Edelbrock basically a Carter AFB?

[HOWARD O]

I may well be mistaken, but doesn't the stock wiring on the trim sender look a lot like zipcord?
Maybe it's actually the original cord just in bad shape?
Then again, I don't put anything past the 'DPO'.

We know the DPO, he sure didn't do it! :cool!:

[Trueser]

Howard,
I will give you 90 days to pay....

[zelatore]

We know the DPO, he sure didn't do it! :cool!:

Well, maybe the 'DPO' before him....

(I don't want to piss off Cuda to much - I could probably hear the yelling all the way out here in CA!)

[HOWARD O]

Howard,
I will give you 90 days to pay....
A new carb and credit to boot? :eek: I can't say NO to that, THANK YOU Trueser, that helps me tremendously! :yes: PM sent.
Howard

[HOWARD O]

Well, maybe the 'DPO' before him....
(I don't want to piss off Cuda to much - I could probably hear the yelling all the way out here in CA!)

Sounds like it was DONZI Marine!

But yes, he'll give you the shirt off his back but I wouldn't recommend ruffling his feathers either! :shocking:

[BUIZILLA]

you can't beat that deal... probably should fatten it up about 3-4 sizes in all 4 corners though...

[BigGrizzly]

The T man came through again. Howard bet your glad you stayed on the board. It isn't all bad

[Trueser]

Grizz,
Before I ship this bad boy You think it will work for his setup?

U being the carb man......

[HOWARD O]

I would imagine it being a direct quadrajet replacement, I'll need an adapter plate, no?

[HOWARD O]

The T man came through again. Howard bet your glad you stayed on the board. It isn't all bad

Well, to tell you the truth, I'd be lost without it about now..... well, not completely lost, but STRUGGLING! :cool:

[fogducker III]

I may not know much, but marine carbs I can handle.............in my experience most people run way too much cfm on marine set-ups.

I think a 650cfm Holley or Edelbrock would work great for your set-up, having said that, I prefer the Edelbrock, less dicking around with float adjustment, side to side rather than front to back as per the Holley which DOES make a difference in a boat. Think about how almost ALL boats sit in the water.....stern lower than bow right? What make is your intake? Single, dual plane or..??

If I may be so bold, I think you should drain your fuel tank FIRST, it is not a big deal a syphon to gerry cans and use the fuel in the lawn mower.....obviously there is either water and/or crap in there and no point messing with anything else or putting on a new carb and then gumming it up with junk fuel.

Second thing is if you are staying with the carb you have, I would not suggest you do, remove the carb and clean it properly. If you get a new carb, it WILL run just fine straight out of the box. Both companies have been doing this for a long time and they set the carbs up at the factory for "average" "mid-range" running applications, trust me on this I spent hours and lots of $$$ chasing carb problems when the only problem was changing the original settings etc on the new carb!!!:nilly:

If you have electric choke, UNHOOK IT!!!! You DO NOT need electric choke on a boat motor, some may argue but in a boat you are always have the throttle handy to keep revs up, so it is not needed and only runs the motor rich........again, some may disagree.........


Anyhow, for what it is worth, grab the new carb and don't change a thing and try it, AFTER getting rid of the crappy fuel, as well as giving the plugs a clean, set timing at around 8 initial and 30 total and see where that goes. You can then "tweak" the timing and IF needed, start looking at changes to the carb, but I highly doubt with your set-up that you will need to change an out of the box carb...........good luck with it and as I beleive was stated before, try and do ONE thing at a time because if there is a problem you won't know what you did when you fix it..........:eek::yes:

[BigGrizzly]

Yes if it is a 330 unit it will work fine unless he is going to spend a lot of money on the motor. The truth is I did a Double pumper on my trs and it ran a little better than the stock carb. My personal opinion is the 650 is one of the nicest carbs there is , It seams to work on everything. Remember most people over carb including the factories.

[HOWARD O]

Engine is stock except for the Dana exhaust and Edelbrock Performer 2-0. Oh, and the T-bolt IV. I don't plan to modify an internals on this motor. When the time comes....and it will down the road, I'll get a whole new shabang. I am mostly after reliability for now, not every mph I can get out of it. I believe this Holley would serve me well. It's a great price and he's willing to wait some for payment, that's great.

I'll tell ya what on the gas that's in there. There is right around 50 gallons and I'm not real keen on keeping my 10 jerry cans full of gas. BUT!! I don't think I'll be replacing the current carb by this weekend and given that it's supposed to be in the mid-60's, I bet I can put a BIG dent in that 50 gallons. Then I'll drain the rest before the new carb, I think that's wise advice. Oh, I will be changing the oil again before next time out.

Choke isn't currently hooked up. I'll run the carb as is, see how it goes. If not, I'll hit up the fellas here for some guidance. If it runs well out of the box, so be it.

So will I need an adapter for my Performer 2-0 intake? Any recommendations or is an adapter an adapter?

Thanks Fogducker, appreciate the advice! :yes:

[HOWARD O]

Yes if it is a 330 unit it will work fine unless he is going to spend a lot of money on the motor. The truth is I did a Double pumper on my trs and it ran a little better than the stock carb. My personal opinion is the 650 is one of the nicest carbs there is , It seams to work on everything. Remember most people over carb including the factories.

I really don't see the point in doing anything to this motor. I see a lot of folks going to a 420 hp spec motor, only to get something more modern soon after? I just as soon enjoy this as is and save for something real solid down the road. But that's just me, I'm not a racing type and most of the time this boat will be for family use.

Is that your Corsican in the avatar? BEEEE-yoou-ti-ful!!!

[Trueser]

I will ship it on Tuesday.

Fed-ex ground. Should take a couple of days.

Do you have a picture of the current setup?

Thanks Grizz, I just wanted to make sure..

[BigGrizzly]

Howard the truth is when I did the 650, my engine was a 420 sperc. And Carbs I got a bunch of. If you could bounce your engine off 6,000 RPMs it mite be a problem, not likely but maybe. That carb stayed on until the blower motor. Thanks for the comment on the Corsican. It looks a tad better in the picture, I think. The interior is new and the last one the original Bilt Rite did when owned by John, and new windshield too. It is a neet boat.

[BUIZILLA]

probably should fatten it up about 3-4 sizes in all 4 corners though.......

[HOWARD O]

I will ship it on Tuesday.
Fed-ex ground. Should take a couple of days.
Do you have a picture of the current setup?
Thanks Grizz, I just wanted to make sure..
No recent photos, but I do have one Joe took when he had just installed the intake and carb.

[HOWARD O]

....
Got it.... :thumbsup:

[Trueser]

Perfect, will fit for sure.

comes with new studs and gaskets.

New................

I have no idea on the corner comments

[HOWARD O]

Perfect, will fit for sure.

comes with new studs and gaskets.

New................

I have no idea on the corner comments

Great deal, thanks very much. Send it on! :yes:

[MOP]

Howard are my eye seeing what I think is brass fittings in the manifolds??? Not good they will in time fry the aluminum.

Phil

[HOWARD O]

Howard are my eye seeing what I think is brass fittings in the manifolds??? Not good they will in time fry the aluminum.
Phil
Didn't give it a second thought? Looks like that's what they sell with the kit?
http://www.danamarineproducts.com/Images/ProductDetailsImages/productimage3_PG_30.gif

[HOWARD O]

Guess I do NOT need an adapter plate. As a matter of fact, it seems that my intake, pictured below, is MORE suited for this spread bore carb?
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/manifolds/images/2161.jpg

[Stevo440]

I never saw in any of the previous posts about adjusting the floats in the primaries and secondaries, I only saw that you rapped the bowls and emptied them but did you adjust them once they were back on? I also never saw a reply about if the carb was a mech or vac secondaries? I'm to lazy to look up the number. If the carb you have is setup properly the engine should run just fine. I will admit the 650cfm would ultimately work better but the one you have should be just as reliable if someone set it up for your application. Even if its a 800 or 850cfm the secondaries can be adjusted to not open all the way, limiting the cfm, depending if its a mech or vac secondary carb. I could go on for ever giving things to look for but a basic rebuild or just going thru and setting it up right is the best place to start. Hope it all works out...

Steve

[HOWARD O]

I never saw in any of the previous posts about adjusting the floats in the primaries and secondaries, I only saw that you rapped the bowls and emptied them but did you adjust them once they were back on? I also never saw a reply about if the carb was a mech or vac secondaries? I'm to lazy to look up the number. If the carb you have is setup properly the engine should run just fine. I will admit the 650cfm would ultimately work better but the one you have should be just as reliable if someone set it up for your application. Even if its a 800 or 850cfm the secondaries can be adjusted to not open all the way, limiting the cfm, depending if its a mech or vac secondary carb. I could go on for ever giving things to look for but a basic rebuild or just going thru and setting it up right is the best place to start. Hope it all works out...

Steve

Steve, thanks for the help. I never questioned that the current carb wouldn't work out okay eventually. If the deal hadn't come on the 650, I probably would remove it and at the very least, give it a good cleaning....if not get a rebuild kit for it. But it really does appear to be in fine shape except for some debris. I haven't done the second bowl and was going to adjust float levels after that.

I am going to run this boat this weekend after changing the oil and see how much old fuel I can get rid of....then I guess I'll drain the rest before installing the new carb. It's running decent enough for that at least....I believe any running issues I have now are due to the old fuel.

But I figured I wanted a 650 eventually, Trueser was gracious enough to not only give me a good deal but also give me some payment terms........so why not avoid the Christmas rush? :yes:

Want to buy a used Holley? I am going to replace that plastic choke housing and put it up on ebay next week!

[Trueser]

Tracking number in PM.

Carb on the way......

[HOWARD O]

Changed oil, plugs and new Racor filter. Installed new carb and it fired right up and idles beautifully after setting the timing as Jim suggested.... 10* initial and 30* at 3000. It has a bogging/starving problem getting up on plane uless you really hit it. Then it takes off all the way up and easily past the 4600 max rpm of the motor. I thought it was running well before at high rpm's, but now it's like a light switch. I suppose there is a way of adjusting the throttle so it's more linear or maybe the power valves? I also forgot to see if that check valve is at the tank fitting, will get to that 1st thing in the morning.

It did backfire two times when letting off the throttle. That and the bogging around mid throttle leads me to believe Jim was right on the jetting. I think I'll bump all of them up a few, see how it goes. I just feel it's running too lean, will check plugs tomorrow. Hard to tell with that crap gas in there.

My temp gauge never gets up at all, although I did ground out the sending unit to test and the gauge swept all the way. Is it possible that the water temp being around 45-50 prevents the motor from getting past 100*? That can't be good I guess.

But all in all, I'm happy as could be.....have some fine tuning and there is still that old fuel in there too. I just can't drain that much fuel and decided to run it out and change filters. At this point, I think it's just STALE.

Thanks for everyone's help, I went for a nice 2 hour ride today and was grinning from ear to ear! Seems all the other boats around here are a lot slower than they used to be! :eek:

[BUIZILLA]

+4 on primary jets and +4 on timing

see what happens

[HOWARD O]

+4 on primary jets and +4 on timing

see what happens

I'll give that a try in the morning, thanks Jim.

[BigGrizzly]

Howard, this is what it is all about, we give you information and you give sone back, it is a two way street. There are several reasons for the hesitation maybe the accel pump is off or maybe just to lean, I am really you had 2 good hours after the problems, good luck.

[HOWARD O]

Howard, this is what it is all about, we give you information and you give sone back, it is a two way street. There are several reasons for the hesitation maybe the accel pump is off or maybe just to lean, I am really you had 2 good hours after the problems, good luck.

Thanks Randy, I had a ball. The only Donzi I've driven, or ridden in for that matter, was my old 16 and although many manners are the same, it's quite different too. The 16 is definitely more "tossable"! But the 22 sure eats up a head sea, the choppier it was....the faster it wanted to go!

What's everyone's take on this. I just read this at the Holley website and maybe this isn't helping my situation. It was on the carb directions too, but who needs any stinkin' directions! But anybody care to guess where I hooked up the choke? :yes: Could be nothing, but they give that warning for a reason I guess. :confused: I'll be disconnecting it tomorrow! I'll hook it up somewhere else later. I did ask MOP about this and he said it's a common place to hook them up, pos. side of coil. Ignition circuit is the ignition circuit, right? What difference does it make where you take it from? I tend to agree with that logic, but read that it's only 9 volts there? Well, no matter, I will remove it and see if it makes any difference, at least with the errant backfire.

WARNING! Connecting the choke cap to the ignition coil will result in unacceptable choke operation, poor fuel
economy, and possible engine misfiring since the voltage delivered to the spark plugs will be severely
reduced by the drain imposed by the choke.

[Trueser]

I'm glad she's running better for you.

Why don't you send some of the old gas into your car/truck.


Good luck on the tunning....

[MR MAGOO]

+4 on primary jets and +4 on timing

see what happens


-Just jumping in here, he's at 10 degrees at idle, TB IV module, V8 24?

Are you suggesting 4 more degrees timing?

I can tell you from real world experience, the 330 does not like more than 34 degrees total timing. I destroyed a piston on a brand new one playing with timing.

Also, I believe the std V8-24 module advances past 4000 rpm.

[HOWARD O]

I'm glad she's running better for you.

Why don't you send some of the old gas into your car/truck.


Good luck on the tunning....


One is my wife's V-8 BMW, I just couldn't do that, it wouldn't like me anymore. My truck is a Powerstroke, I really couldn't do that! :shocking:

I thought about keeping it for the tractor, the generator too if we happen have a hurricane season! But the boat is on the lift now and it's a major PIA to have to put it back on the trailer. I could lift it high enough to get a good siphon on it too, but I just don't feel right doing it on the water. My luck, the Coasties or some EPA tree hugger would go by just as I was in the middle of it! :eek:

I don't know, maybe I'll fill a few cans tomorrow, real quick like. :yes:

[HOWARD O]

-Just jumping in here, he's at 10 degrees at idle, TB IV module, V8 24?
Are you suggesting 4 more degrees timing?
I can tell you from real world experience, the 330 does not like more than 34 degrees total timing. I destroyed a piston on a brand new one playing with timing.
Also, I believe the std V8-24 module advances past 4000 rpm.

I think I have the chart here on my computer for the V8 24.......lemme check.

[BUIZILLA]

is it in fact a 24?

or a 20?

[BUIZILLA]

btw, I have an 80552 that Budmann gave me and it has a 5.0 PV, I would change yours to a 6.5 and jet up the front end to 65 or 66... back end is a metering plate so leave that alone..

[HOWARD O]

is it in fact a 24?

or a 20?

It's a 24.....and what you originally told me to set it to falls exactly in line with the chart. I realized that tonight, no worries. Here's the chart, but you I think have it memorized!

I think I'll go up on the primary jets tomorrow as well as check the float levels....although it's new. Maybe they're uneven? I still feel the jetting is key.

Magoo, looks like full advance is achieved by 37-- RPM.

[BUIZILLA]

get a 6.5 PV............

[HOWARD O]

btw, I have an 80552 that Budmann gave me and it has a 5.0 PV, I would change yours to a 6.5 and jet up the front end to 65 or 66... back end is a metering plate so leave that alone..

I was just looking around to see what stock jetting and powervalve size was. I don't have a vacuum gauge, I suppose I should get one! 6.5 is what was in the last carb....don't know if it equates, but it got out of the hole just fine.

Hmm, wonder how early NAPA is open tomorrow. :confused: Everything shuts down around here on Sundays, even car dealers! Even recreational vehicle dealers! Who in their right mind goes SHOPPING on their DAY OFF? Gee, we want to sell you a car REALLY BAD and have all these OBNOXIOUS commercials......but we CAN'T work on a Sunday when the REST OF THE WORLD IS OFF WORK AND SHOPPING! But I digress, sorry 'bout that!!! It just really annoys me! :mad:

[HOWARD O]

get a 6.5 PV............

Should still go up on the jets, correct? Or one thing at a time?

[HOWARD O]

You seem to be easily annoyed. :nilly: :nilly:
Has this been a lifelong problem? :) ;) :):)
No, it hasn't....and your questions are really getting ANNOYING! :rlol: :rlol: :rlol:

Glad to hear it's running better.. Personally, I'd open up the idle jets a skoosh,and run the bad fuel out of it with a big ole s-eating grin on my face before I messed around with it any more :) :)
That sounds good, but I change my mind about every 10 seconds, so who knows what tomorrow may bring? :popcorn:

[BUIZILLA]

Should still go up on the jets, correct? Or one thing at a time?yup, 65's and a 6.5..... that carb really came jetted for a small block and prolly has 61's in the front pew now... you'll have to check and see

[HOWARD O]

yup, 65's and a 6.5..... that carb really came jetted for a small block and prolly has 61's in the front pew now... you'll have to check and see
You seem to be very sensible. Has this been a lifelong problem for you? :)
You bet I'll check and see. It's going to be WARM tomorrow, I'll be up bright and EARLY! Next door neighbor is about to get a payback for his barking dogs! MOOOhhhaaaahhaaa! :party::party::party:

"in the front pew"? See, you let it slip once in a while that you've been at this a lot and for probably a very long time.

[BUIZILLA]

i'll be working on a dirty cane harvestor in the middle of a sugar cane field about the time you work on the carb, i'm due there at 7:30am.... on a Sunday no less.... yup, i'm an idiot but they are 25 year customer's of mine.... gotta make em happy these days... they convert the entire operation of 140 trucks, 18 harvestors, and over 200 tractors to bio fuel on Monday.... fool's they are if it doesn't work... they use 90,000 gallons of fuel a WEEK.... Govt rebate for Bio is $1 a gallon now so they get back $90,000 a week in rebates starting Monday... my job is to make sure 18 harvestors are running 100% before they croak....

[HOWARD O]

i'll be working on a dirty cane harvestor in the middle of a sugar cane field about the time you work on the carb, i'm due there at 7:30am.... on a Sunday no less.... yup, i'm an idiot but they are 25 year customer's of mine.... gotta make em happy these days... they convert the entire operation of 140 trucks, 18 harvestors, and over 200 tractors to bio fuel on Monday.... fool's they are if it doesn't work... they use 90,000 gallons of fuel a WEEK.... Govt rebate for Bio is $1 a gallon now so they get back $90,000 a week in rebates starting Monday... my job is to make sure 18 harvestors are running 100% before they croak....

I helped a buddy set up a biodiesel processing plant in his garage last year.....he's got quite a little operation going! He did a nice job and the fuel is real good and clean. I was getting all geared up to run it in my truck until the fuel prices dropped again.

I can't imagine the cost of THAT conversion. Sounds a bit risky depending on that gubmint rebate.....have they considered making their own bio fuel?

Anyway, good night and thank you, thank you and thank you for all the help! :yes: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[BigGrizzly]

The real reason you don't hook the choke to the coil is in some applications there is a resistance wire or resistor in the line before the coil. I have seen the trouble before. the choke never opens fully and the coil can be erratic. I have not seen much or any in the past 15 or so years. Actually I don't even have the automattic on anything but the 1971 Mach1 mustang, they have all been converted to manual or removed. Keep going Howard I see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel.:yes:

[HOWARD O]

Well, you're right Randy, disconnecting the choke lead really did accomplish nothing. I don't really think the choke accomplished all that much when it was hooked up. It worked correctly, yes, but hardly worth the trouble I don't think.

Got a new 6.5 powervalve this morning but do you think any of these chain stores can carry jets? Of course not, you have to wait until MONDAY to go to a real auto parts store! Poodle, this is a legitimate gripe!!! :mad: :wink:

[CHACHI]

DRILL 'EM.

Ken

[BUIZILLA]

so does Lowes, Home Repo, and Northern Tool...

[HOWARD O]

Whole hell of a lot of good that does me now! :welcome:

I used to do that with my dirtbike.....but that was a dirtbike, not for my BRAND NEW CARB. If it didn't run right afterwards, I would've always been suspect of my handy work.

Uh, plus the fact that it never dawned on me! :kingme:

Ken gets the 10 points to be the earliest to pile on though! :thewave:

[HOWARD O]

sears sells number drill sets..
And they were open on sunday :kingme::kingme:

argo!!!

[maddad]

DRILL 'EM.

Ken
Drilling them isn't such a good idea. The chamfer's relationship to the bore in the jet is critical to the flow and it is possible to reduce flow by drilling the jet.

[HOWARD O]

Okay, an update on my woes.

I was able to track down 64 primary jets and installed them, as well as the 6.5 powervalve. Made sure timing was still at 10* advance. Idles well, getting on plane was improved but still getting some pops and/or backfire trying to get on plane. This only happens sometimes, but it really gurgles and doesn't like the mid range throttle. This I guess I could attribute to the jets still not fat enough and the crap fuel.

I was about out of fuel this morning, so I took on a bit over 35 gallons of 93 octane. It just runs better all around, starts great, idles great. Gets on plane better but still some hesitation and a small backfire sometimes. Unless you give it a good goose and it clears up and really goes. It pulls very strong at WFO, never a problem there. But easing down into about 3000-3200, it doesn't like to sit there, especially trying to maintain that into a medium turn when it gets some load on it.

Also, it was fairly choppy in the big river today. I found when it was banging the boat pretty good.....I was going about 3500 rpm and about medium trim, I would get some popping. It would want to do it quite a bit in the chop.

Could I still have something electrical going on? Almost as if the chop was making a connection intermittent and it was kind of a clue of sorts, I guess. Should I give less advance a try? I am not getting, nor have I ever, had any knocking or anything of that sort (detonation), but the little backfires are a concern.

My next step from here is locate 65 or even 66 jets....and maybe go to 8* advance to see what that gets me? The new fuel did help tremendously, I expected that.

I also want to mention that the boat just flies WFO......it'll easily go up and past 4600, maybe even get to 5 grand if I would let it. Here I thought that the 24 pitch prop would be way too much for it, now I am concerned it's not enough? Crazy........

Anyway, thanks for hanging in there with me! :yes:

[BUIZILLA]

68's

[HOWARD O]

Oh, I wanted to mention that I found a carburetor repair shop in town. Well, of sorts, I don't think he has much business anymore. It's an old black guy that runs it and he's been there for 35 years or so. So after exhausting all the auto parts places around here, none sell jets :frown: , I called him. He said to call back at lunch or come by.

So, with my 4 yr. old in tow, we stopped at his garage after lunch. We were there for maybe an hour, shuckin' and jivin', while he went through his bins and carbs looking for jets. Super nice guy, quite a talker and finally handed me 64's and said to try them. If they don't work, bring 'em back, we'll try something else. I gave him ten bucks for his time and we were on our way.

Now here's the thing. I could tell he had numerous sets of jets laid out on his little workbench but keeping them close to the vest, but do you think he could give me 2 or 3 to try? Nope! He did say that I can come back and try some others and he would not charge me of course, but he only gave me one set. I think he was fairly lonely there and wanted to tell some more stories. I have gone by his place again already, but I just don't have time to shoot the sh*t with him for another hour! Maybe tomorrow I can stop and hunt down some 65's or 66's.

He told me he used to work on the carbs back in the day down at all the local marinas. He would sometimes go out in the boat, but the boat owner would HAVE to wear his life jacket and so would he, because he hates the water and it scares the crap out of him. I asked him if he would go out on mine. He asked how big it was, I said 22'. He said with a 454 in it? How fast that thing go....I said maybe around 60. He said MILES PER HOUR! Hell no, I wouldn't even step on that thing tied to the dock. I said that's nothing, a lot of them go 80 or 90, mine's a putt putt. Nobody, I mean nobody, has any bidness doing that kinda thing out there on the water son, you're crazy. It was just hillarious and I had a ball chatting with him. :wink:

[HOWARD O]

68's

Think? Just cut to the chase and go 68's?

Okay, will do! Got to go see my friend......this could take a while. :lookaroun:

[Trueser]

Howard,

Did you ever get the correct jets? is she running good yet?

Good Luck
Trueser

[MOP]

Was the 93 just to perk up the octane? The 330 will run better on 87 then 93, what do the plugs look like after a 10 minute run @ 3500 with instant shut down? Post some pics!!!

[HOWARD O]

Good morning and Happy Valentine's Day! Okay, this will probably be long-winded, but I want to be as specific and descriptive as possible.

I just got back from a test run this morning, after rounding up some #69 jets yesterday afternoon.

My local fuel dock has 87 and 93, unfortunately there is no in between. Phil, I did want to "perk up" the octane, so to speak. Next fill up I will go back to 97.

I am pleased and dismayed with the results after installing the bigger jets. The biggest improvement is that there is no longer ANY backfiring or popping whatsoever, at any speed....even in the chop. That was a big relief and tells me that I am not having an electrical problem. It will also get on plane better, with less hesitation and gurgling, but I am still getting quite a bit, especially if that trim isn't all the way in. But it is MUCH improved.

The boat will cruise better and smoother at lower rpm, but still doesn't like between 2800-3500 rpm. It just doesn't settle in and wants to creep up and go faster. It runs fantastic at 4000, settles in and is happy. I am assuming the secondaries are then working and it's getting it's fuel?

I may have done a dumb thing before testing and that was to retard the timing back to 8* from 10*. Later on this afternoon, when the air temp warms up a bit....as I can hardly type right now because my fingers are so cold, I will set the timing back to 10* and do another test, this time doing the plug test as MOP suggests.

My gut feeling suggests that I should go even BIGGER on the jetting, maybe as big as #72's. That's better than a 10 size jump from stock though, is that odd? But what an improvement, not getting any backfiring or "popping" was a relief to me. I also have to figure out how to check the float level on this carb, as it doesn't have external adjustment....guess it's the old fashioned way. For some reason, it's just not getting mid-throttle fuel and when you hit the throttle, it's like a lightswitch BIG TIME when those secondaries kick in.

Oh, and I got the trim limit sensor hooked back up. I now have up trim as well as down trim. However, there is a problem. If I don't slow down to about 2800 before I hit trim out (up switch), the engine will backfire and want to die. I know the up trim is high pressure and down is low pressure....I thought I might have had them wired backwards, but that wasn't the problem. What would cause the motor to want to die?

I think I'll just order a selection of jets. In the meantime, after testing this afternoon with higher advance timing and plug check, I believe I'll check the float level and am going to get a gauge to check fuel pressure too.

Does this sound like I am going in the right direction? But even through all of this, I'm on my river....in my Donzi.....and I am having FUN!!! :yes:

[HOWARD O]

After the rain, I set the timing back to 10*. Aside from not backfiring anymore, I'm afraid it's not running any better at all. Runs about the same at 8* as 10*. Coming out of the hole, it is just starving for fuel, sometimes so much so that it won't "catch" with the secondaries and go.......just a boooooggggggg. Most times it'll catch and go. It bogs from just on plane on up to about 3700 rpm, then it'll run good past that point. I did do a plug test at 3500 rpm and the plugs look pretty decent. They are tan, don't have any white blotches like you'd get when leaned out....nor are they wet at all.

Starting to get a bit depressed because I know my next step now is to find a fuel pressure gauge. I fear it's just not getting near the fuel pressure it needs. With a bad pump, would it still go like a raped ape when the secondaries open?

Now, if it turns out to be fuel delivery, i.e. bad fuel pump, wouldn't it make sense to go with an electric? :confused:

Oh, and I replaced the braided fuel line from the pump to the carb with regular rubber 3/8" this afternoon too. Still has braided between filter and pump, going to replace that too.

Ya know, Farmer Tx and Buizilla both told me to check the fuel pressure way back in the very beginning of this thread. I think that was one piece of advice I neglected to do.....mostly because I've never done it before I guess. Sure going to do it now! Maybe would've saved a bit of aggravation.

[BUIZILLA]

accelerator pump adjustment is wrong,,, or you need to use a white cam and then reset it again correctly at WFO with .015 clearance between the arm and the diaphragm button... in facte set front and rear arms to .015.... I don't think it's a fuel pressure issue because it hauls ass from 4000 up... it's a transition issue that needs to be addressed and/or the front float level is low.. put the timing at 13* just for giggles AFTER you make sure the carb is right...

[HOWARD O]

Been reading up on the Holley website and I can handle the accelerator pump adjustment. Makes a lot of sense.

I'm UNSURE about float level, since it doesn't have the external adjustment. Used to adjust float level on the motorcycles by simply bending the float "tang". Is it done the same way on this carb until you get a bit of fuel at the sight plug?

I'm gettin' this sucker running tomorrow, rain or shine. THANK YOU for the direction, Jim. Relief to know if it were a bad fuel pressure problem, it would not be able to run well at and above 4000 rpm. :yes:

[HOWARD O]

First thing I did this morning was measure the accelerator pump arm clearance and it was right on, so I didn't touch it. Then I removed the float bowl and took a look. Holding it inverted, it was exactly level. I adjusted it so that there was just a small gap between the top of the bowl and float when the valve was seated.

Just went for a ride and by golly, it went up on plane just like a new boat, no hesitation, gurgling.....nothing. And the throttle was smooth all the way through, gone was the "light switch", just linear. I could cruise at any rpm and smooth as could be, it would stay at that throttle setting and was really nice! I was pleased as punch! Came down off plane a few times, back up and same, just GREAT. :yes:

The water was smooth here so I thought I'd take it out in the "big" river because it was a fairly windy day and I knew it'd be choppy. It was choppy, maybe 1-2 ft pounding chop. Got up on plane just fine and in about 10 seconds it was back to the same old crap. Anything below about 3600 rpm and it would fall flat on it's face, lose power and basically run for crap. Had to keep it up above 36 or 3800 rpm to even keep going. I turned around and came back. Got back into smooth water after idling through a 1/4 mile of no-wake zone. Started up on plane and it is back to the same old shenanigans, very crappy.......all the way home. One thing is different now though. It'll start out better up until 2400 rpm, before it's on plane, than it did before.

I am completely perplexed and it was extremely frustrating because for a good 20 minutes I thought it was fixed. We know now that the timing is okay, apparently the jetting is okay too since it was running fabulous for 20 minutes. I can't say for sure that the rough water caused it, it may have happened after a time in the smooth water too.

Back home I inspected everything, nothing amiss.....coil was cool, nothing out of sorts. It idles okay too.....and runs good up to about 2400 rpm....and from 3800 rpm on up, it hauls ass. This is now starting to drive me nuts. Maybe raising the float level helped and cured that hesitation, but it's almost as if after getting jostled around, the float bowl never gets replenished? I'll admit I'm a rank amateur, but it makes no sense whatsoever to me.... :frown:

I am open to ANY and ALL ideas, suggestions, etc. I've ordered a vacuum/fuel pressure gauge, so this week I can check the fuel delivery. I have been using the coil off the other boat, I suppose I can put the original back on as well. I wonder if the rough water is knocking some connection loose.......but why did it run well in the beginning of the day? If something gets knocked loose, why would it run well the next morning? I might look into some professional help this week, see if they see something I do not.

[MOP]

You comment on back firing when you hit the trim, show a low voltage condition. could be a prob in the trim circuit drawing to much current or something else. Take a jumper wire with you on the next run, one long enough to go from + on the battery to + the coil. Make a run with the jumper if everything gets better it is time for more detective work, I have seen dash gauges show decent voltage and still have gremlins in the system.

Phil

[HOWARD O]

You comment on back firing when you hit the trim, show a low voltage condition. could be a prob in the trim circuit drawing to much current or something else. Take a jumper wire with you on the next run, one long enough to go from + on the battery to + the coil. Make a run with the jumper if everything gets better it is time for more detective work, I have seen dash gauges show decent voltage and still have gremlins in the system.

Phil

Phil, when I hit the up trim anytime when I'm on plane, the engine falls flat, mostly with a backfire. That ain't right. I also noticed today while scanning the gauges that the voltage was pegged, that ain't right either. I'll try that jumper tomorrow. It is original wiring and I don't have to tell you that it was never good from the start!

I had about a half gallon of water in the bilge that the pump couldn't suck up. I thought maybe that was sloshing in the rough water and possibly getting something wet. Dried out the bilge, no luck.

I was also going to try to run with the gas cap loosened, see if it might be a venting problem. If not, hook up a small outboard tank to the fuel pump, see if that had any effect.

At least I found out this morning how well it "can" run, so that was a bit of a relief. It was completely different boat, a real pleasure. Then.......pleasure gone! :nilly:

[fogducker III]

Not sure if you followed some of the earlier advice and removed the "stop-cock" at the fuel tank? If you still have this problem I suggest fuel pump.....:confused:

[HOWARD O]

Not sure if you followed some of the earlier advice and removed the "stop-cock" at the fuel tank? If you still have this problem I suggest fuel pump.....:confused:

I did, thanks.....no anti-siphon valve. I ordered a cheap "Actron" vacuum and fuel pressure gauge, should arrive by Tuesday. Going to do as Buizilla says and take readings before and after the pump. That should tell me the condition of the pump.

My gut feeling with these electrical things going on that I am going to have an epiphany when I do the jumper wire to the coil as Phil suggested. Have a few reasons for that hunch:

--It was running absolutely perfect until I hit those waves.....then phooey, immediately started to act up. Getting into smooth water didn't alleviate the problem.

--Trying to adjust trim underway results in extreme loss of power and backfiring.

--When it starts running poorly, I am back to the "lightswitch" effect with the throttle. At a particular rpm, it just turns on and hauls ass. No in between at all, almost as if that alone is electrical, kind of like a LIGHTSWITCH! :)

Now I know, after many years of riding 2-stroke dirtbikes, this effect can be a carburetion/fuel delivery deal, but this just feels like something different. I originally thought that this was the way the carb would act normally, with a very strong secondary. But after running it this morning when it was perfect didn't reflect that at all.....the power delivery was very linear.

At this point I think we're very close to discovering the problem and I'm not concerned that it's anything remotely catastrophic. We'll get 'r done soon enough and confidence is HIGH!!! :thumbsup:

[MOP]

[quote=HOWARD O;495104]Phil, when I hit the up trim anytime when I'm on plane, the engine falls flat, mostly with a backfire. That ain't right. I also noticed today while scanning the gauges that the voltage was pegged, that ain't right either. I'll try that jumper tomorrow. It is original wiring and I don't have to tell you that it was never good from the start!

Right off start checking grounds, I would bet you will find a poor one. I would take every ground loose and clean it before you go any farther, high voltage most time means it is having a hard time going where it is suppose to so the alternator keeps pushing more into the system.

Phil

[HOWARD O]

[quote=HOWARD O;495104]Phil, when I hit the up trim anytime when I'm on plane, the engine falls flat, mostly with a backfire. That ain't right. I also noticed today while scanning the gauges that the voltage was pegged, that ain't right either. I'll try that jumper tomorrow. It is original wiring and I don't have to tell you that it was never good from the start!

Right off start checking grounds, I would bet you will find a poor one. I would take every ground loose and clean it before you go any farther, high voltage most time means it is having a hard time going where it is suppose to so the alternator keeps pushing more into the system.

Phil


I'll put on my electrician's hat on tomorrow, Phil. I've got a good feeling about this. Man, I hate electrical. I'm actually pretty good with the physical aspect of wiring and making proper connections, it's just that I always have a tough time figuring out what it all does and where everything goes!

Let ya know how I make out.....I'm expecting good news by the day's end. :yes:

[MOP]

Pick up a can of this stuff http://www.crcind.com.au/catalogue.nsf/web_brands/Battery+Terminal+Protector?openDocument It use to be called Pro Clean. Clean the surfaces and the sspay a little on them before assembly then coat well after assembly, it will keep the contacts in perfect condition for a very long time. Added note on the bolts for your block grounds it pays to run a tap in the hole and to lightly wire brush the bolt spay it prior to insertion, the battery block ground/s and the starter terminals carry the highest loads in the system they are the biggest trouble spots.

[Ed Donnelly]

CRC make great products. Use their switch cleaner all the time in my trade..Ed

[zelatore]

Right off start checking grounds, I would bet you will find a poor one. I would take every ground loose and clean it before you go any farther, high voltage most time means it is having a hard time going where it is suppose to so the alternator keeps pushing more into the system.

Phil

I think Phil's dead-on here.

[HOWARD O]

Already happen to have the CRC spray. I have been reading through my TRS manual, which has all the tilt motor information. They have the motor connected directly to the battery and mine is connected to the starter motor. So I got some tinned 10 g. for both power and ground, going to wire that up directly to the battery. Will go through all ground connections as you suggest. Got a wire brush and my tap/die set.........and just generally go through all connections to clean, inspect and replace as needed.

When I first brought the boat home, I told my wife that the first major project this spring was a new gauge package and a complete re-wire. I'll probaby get to that pretty soon. I smell a new gauge package coming for my birthday!

[zelatore]

Speaking of gauges....CP is running some promos on packages.

http://www.cpperformance.com/ebay/cc/cp/cp-boatshow.html

(I've been doing a little shopping myself)

[HOWARD O]

Well, no joy in Mudville. :frown:

Went through every ground, rewired the the trim pump to the battery, went through the connections at the starter. I also discovered the alternator belt quite loose, tightened that up, etc.

Went for a ride, ran crappy, turned around to come home. While getting on plane again, it ran perfect for about 30 seconds all through the throttle range....it got really smooth and nice, then slowed down for a turn, made turn and then ran like crap rest of way back. Voltage still pegged and I neglected to look at the gauge when it was running right. :bonk: With key on and engine shut off, gauge is normal, half in the green. Guess I should see now what the alternator is putting out and I should also see what happens when I completely disconnect the trim pump altogether? Not now though, too dang coooold out there! I want my 75 degree days of last week back again! :shocking:

[HOWARD O]

Speaking of gauges....CP is running some promos on packages.
http://www.cpperformance.com/ebay/cc/cp/cp-boatshow.html
(I've been doing a little shopping myself)


hmmmm, thanks for that head's up! hmmmm.....:cool:

[Trueser]

Did you ever get the tempature corrected?

What about the inside of the distributor?

[HOWARD O]

Did you ever get the tempature corrected?

What about the inside of the distributor?

No, haven't fixed the temp yet.....engine still cold. I'm going to get a crossover kit. Actually, the CP link Zelatore sent has a nice one on sale.

I took the dist. cap off yesterday morning, didn't see anything amiss. Dry, didn't note any bad spots or anything like that. Should I be looking for something in particular?

I'll tell ya though, when it is running properly, it absolutely runs great! But there doesn't seem to be an in between when it's running poorly and great.....it's GOT to be electrical since it's so intermittent. I am going to put in the old coil and maybe even put back the T-Bolt V ignition one at a time, just so I can rule those out.

[HOWARD O]

The T-Bolt IV ignition module is riveted on to a triangular plate. I have the black ground wire coming out of the module well grounded but can someone tell me if the plate itself needs to be grounded as well?

[Trueser]

You never can have to much ground.

[Trueser]

No, haven't fixed the temp yet.....engine still cold. I'm going to get a crossover kit. Actually, the CP link Zelatore sent has a nice one on sale.

I took the dist. cap off yesterday morning, didn't see anything amiss. Dry, didn't note any bad spots or anything like that. Should I be looking for something in particular?

I'll tell ya though, when it is running properly, it absolutely runs great! But there doesn't seem to be an in between when it's running poorly and great.....it's GOT to be electrical since it's so intermittent. I am going to put in the old coil and maybe even put back the T-Bolt V ignition one at a time, just so I can rule those out.

Look for a hair line crack in the cap or rotor. and make sure it's not all rusty on the inside .

[BigGrizzly]

I had a similar problem and Like the T man said I had a cracked cap. But I like your switching to check out the system. Now I will probably stir up a can of worms, but I don't like cold running engines too many problems.

[BUIZILLA]

somebody I know had the same problem Saturday.... we didn't find the problem until 9pm, in total darkness, and by accident, shocked the piss out of me, literally.... bad coil or coil wire.....

[gold-n-rod]

shocked the piss out of me, literally....

You pee'd yourself? :nilly::nilly::nilly: :bonk:

:wink:

[Ed Donnelly]

Must have been an MSD system,right Buizz?.....Ed

[HOWARD O]

I'll switch out the coil AND the coil wire tomorrow. The coil in there now was a Known Good coil from my other boat....also a 454 Mercruiser. Of course I am using the same wires, haven't switched them out. I am getting the same results with both ignitions, both coils. New things I haven't tried are the dist. cap and the plug/coil wires.

The alternator is putting out 14.65 volts. But I just don't understand why the gauge is pegged and if I hit a trim button, the gauge drops. It is also pegged at idle with the trim pump completely disconnected from the battery. I am also hearing a buzzing sound on plane and I've heard that sound before, when an alternator is on it's way out. I originally thought it was the loose ring around the rear lift eye, but I fixed that and buzzing still there.

Grizz, I agree about the cold running engine. I don't have much experience but I've read up and realize it's a really bad way to operate. First on my list is to get a good crossover system hooked up. :yes:

[BUIZILLA]

my Critter had the SAME problem for 4 years until 2 weeks ago with the trim switch.... the alt gauge dived when I trimmed it... found the main circuit breaker to be the culprit under high amp loads, West Marine sells a neat fusable bridge piece for less than $1.00 each that goes on the 2 circuit breaker studs of the factory Merc breaker, and it's a 50 amp rating, worked perfectly Saturday, so if your factory circuit breaker is bad you have a $1 fix instead of a new $60 breaker... the MSD was on another boat that had a definate miss from 3000-3800 from then on it was a raped ape... didn't do it every time either... the coil wire would act like it was seated when installed, then pop up about 1/4" a couple seconds later, and the spark would jump between one of the coil studs and under the coil wire boot when snapping the throttle, looked like blue lightning at night...

[HOWARD O]

You're talking about the 50 amp breaker with the red button, correct? That's strange because that was the first thing I replaced on the boat when I first brought it home. Had no voltage to the dash or anywhere past that point. It was blown and wouldn't reset. That is also the first part I stole off my old boat! :cool: Maybe not a coincidence that you brought that up. hmmmm..... would that have anything to do with the pegged gauge you suppose? I'll see if I can find that thing at west marine online....dang, was just there this morning. Damn, I hate paying their markup, but they are convenient. :mad:

I'll remove that cap and give it an inspection too....

Thanks for the feedback! I'm chalking this up as a good learning experience if nothing else.

[HOWARD O]

Jim, not quite a buck, but is this the fuseable bridge thingamajobber you were referring to?
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/16032/377%20710%201629/712/Switches,%20Fuses%20/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/10/0?N=377%20710%201629&Ne=712&Ntt=Switches,%20Fuses%20&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=295

[BUIZILLA]

no, mine were flat with just 2 holes, no slots... the thickness of the flat is the amp rating, came 5 to a box, less than $5 I think... I'll get a part number when I get home.... the TRS breaker is 50 amp for sure, all my other's have been 30 amp, if you used an old 30 off your other non TRS boat that may be taxing the load somehow...

[BigGrizzly]

TRS is 50 amp.

[HOWARD O]

Must not have it on the website then, probably have it in the store though.

Other boat is a 454/300 w/Bravo drive. The breaker was a 50, same part number and everything as the old one.

[HOWARD O]

Ummm, something Griz said a few posts ago has me wondering. When I switched the t-bolt V with the t-bolt IV from the other boat a couple weeks ago, that's all I switched. I DID NOT switch the caps nor did I switch the distributor itself. Was that a no-no??? :nilly: :bonk:

Just looked, the caps at least are the same......distributor should be too, I'd imagine.

Okay, nevermind, they're the same. I am going to switch caps for good measure though. I'm supposed to be selling the other boat, kind of going bassackwards on that front though! Oh well, who cares!

[HOWARD O]

While waiting for my fuel pressure gauge to arrive, I took off the dist. cap, inspected and cleaned it. It looks practically new to me so I just put it back on. I also stole the plug and coil wires off of the old boat. They are in great shape and I never had a problem with them. I never did like the Mallory wires on the Donzi, they are straight push-on to the spark plug and while they probably seal real good, I could never get a "click", nor could I tell if they were ever seated all the way. The set I just put on have the 90* elbows at the plug and they actually made a click when I installed them. They also click nicely on the dist. cap. Am going to put the old coil back on too. I also removed the fuel line at the tank elbow, just to double check that there was no anti-siphon doohickey there. None there. Checked all the wiring behind the dash, all looked good. Am thinking of changing out the key switch as well. Going to check at West Marine to find those bridged fuses Buiz spoke of.

Can't wait for that fuel pressure gauge to arrive!

[HOWARD O]

I don't think I'll fool around with the boat anymore until I get a crossover with a bypass that allows me to run a t-stat. We really didn't get into any specific discussion about what can happen to an engine running this cold. I have now heard all kinds of things like condensation building up inside and even perhaps hanging intake valves? You all would know far more than I would, even if you are from parts south of me!

At this point I don't think it's just possible, but probable that these running issues are directly related to very cold water constantly circulating through. Maybe I've been spinning my wheels this whole time and all the while doing a good deal of damage to this old girl. I am going to use the current crossover I have since it has a blocked port I can use....then just order the lower pipe with the bypass fitting on it. I'll start off with 2 holes in the t-stat and go from there. Let's see what this does with my issues?

[HOWARD O]

I run no bypass, and a restrictor plate in the t-stat housing.. :)

Okay, I'll bite! Tell me more, tell me more!

I assume this plate is circular and the same diameter of a thermostat and a hole in the middle?

Keep in mind, my water is about 45 degrees right now!

[HOWARD O]

Been mulling this over and I believe I am just going to order a crossover kit and be done with it. I would like to use the boat year round and it'd probably be best in the long run to have a fairly constant temp. I just wish they had some ghetto unit instead of the fancy bling SS jobs!

[BigGrizzly]

The restricter works I just prefer the T-stat with 3 holes. I like the circ pump because of faster warm ups and slower cool down. Now I run closed cooling systems for the same reason plus the entire engine is even temp. I am not suggesting you run out and change, but if a new engine is in the future then go for it. All the makers are going that way.

[HOWARD O]

Day before yesterday I switched out the plug wires, coil wire and went back to the original coil. Too cold out to run it. This morning I gave the wiring harness plug a good cleaning, tweak out the ends a bit.

Went and fueled up with 87 octane, went for a ride. I can't tell you which of those were the culprit, but I don't see how this boat could run any better! Not a hiccup whatsoever getting up to plane at any throttle setting. Settles and cruises at any rpm, no funny noises, etc. I am OVERJOYED.....I think I was dancing when I parked the boat and got out! I still have an issue with overcharging, the volt gauge is pegged, however measuring output on the battery when idling is 14.65. Don't know if that's too high. OR the gauge is messed up, don't know!

Still have a lot of work to do on the boat of course, cooling, wiring, etc.....but right now I am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!!!!

Thanks to everyone here for helping me through this. It was probably something simple and if I were a better diagnostition, well....you know.


:fam: :fam: :fam:

[BigGrizzly]

LIFE is GOOD when the boat runs well:yes::yes::yes::yes:

[HOWARD O]

LIFE is GOOD when the boat runs well:yes::yes::yes::yes:

It is!!! I was getting pretty moody and surly, I've got to admit. Now time to get to things on the boat that I've been wanting to do for weeks. Figured there was no point until it's running well. First on the list is testing this voltmeter and/or alternator. That's a bit worrisome......

Thanks for hanging in there with me Grizz.... :yes:

[Trueser]

Day before yesterday I switched out the plug wires, coil wire and went back to the original coil. Too cold out to run it. This morning I gave the wiring harness plug a good cleaning, tweak out the ends a bit.

Went and fueled up with 87 octane, went for a ride. I can't tell you which of those were the culprit, but I don't see how this boat could run any better! Not a hiccup whatsoever getting up to plane at any throttle setting. Settles and cruises at any rpm, no funny noises, etc. I am OVERJOYED.....I think I was dancing when I parked the boat and got out! I still have an issue with overcharging, the volt gauge is pegged, however measuring output on the battery when idling is 14.65. Don't know if that's too high. OR the gauge is messed up, don't know!

Still have a lot of work to do on the boat of course, cooling, wiring, etc.....but right now I am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY!!!!

Thanks to everyone here for helping me through this. It was probably something simple and if I were a better diagnostition, well....you know.


:fam: :fam: :fam:


What Gauge do you have? I have my old set from the 22 still.

Happy!

[BigGrizzly]

14.6 isn't bad you need 13.7 to charge a 12 volt car type battery. 12 volts is no good.
BTW, I did not hang in there, you hung in there I just helped like everyone else to tie a knot in the end of your rope to hang on to.

[BUIZILLA]

14.65 is on the high end of the spectrum... I like to see between 13.7 to 14.2.... you may have an aggressive voltage regulator and that's an easssyyyyyy fix..