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jeddski
01-28-2009, 10:16 AM
Seems like every winter we go through the same question of if we should upgrade the 496HO in our 27ZR. We've been toying around with the idea of selling the Donzi due to the purchase of a sailboat and that is still a possibility.

That being said I'm interested in squeezing some added power out of the 496.
- Does anyone have experience with "simply" adding a whipple to the 496HO? Whipple claims it can be done.

- In the past we looked into rebuilding the motor to beef up the internals while adding the whipple to build a truly beastly motor. The issue here was that the result would be too costly and probably more power than we're looking for.
(on that note Whipple claims around 650hp which would be just about right)

Basically, my question is that now that these motors have been around for a while what seems to be the best bang for the buck add-on package???

Thanks in advance!!

The Hedgehog
01-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Ask Jamie. He does them and has one on his ZX with 496. He says around 625hp which sounds about right with the speeds he is posting.

fasttrucker
01-28-2009, 02:22 PM
I heard a story about a go-fast with twin 496 and whipples.Both had to be rebilt at 60 hours.Seems the 502 had forged internals and the 496 is not(cheaper to produce).Raylar offers a kit to upgrade the motor.Plus you can spec. blower pistons.Jamie doesnt put a lot of hours on his donzi,s as he works too hard.So its not a problem for him.Iam sure he will respond about them.Have you dropped the price on your 27zr.There is a nice 2007 58 hours at smith mountain lake va.I think he will take $59,ooo.It was on e-bay for 64K

Air 22
01-28-2009, 03:13 PM
You might wanna also consider buying a spare drive as well....6000lb+ boat, single engine...:rolleyes::nilly::eek:
That Bravo One X drive wont last to long as its only rated to 450HP..i'm just say'n....:eek::)
http://northamerica.mercurymarine.com/engines/inboards/sterndrives/bravoone_specs.php?ID=120

jeddski
01-28-2009, 07:30 PM
fasttrucker- We would be willing to sell ours in the $60's, but once you start to get into the $50's it just doesnt make sense to let it go. If I didn't own the 27ZR and someone told me that I could buy a boat like this (relatively new, the level of performance, lines, ext) for $55k I'd go out and buy one.

Air22- details details..... :bonk: I've heard that it is possible to upgrade to the XR internals and that would take care of the drive=grenade issue.

So really it sounds like at the bare minimum we could add a wipple and upgrade the gear sets and still expect that the motor will go boom within a relatively short period of time. I've just been spoiled when thinking about blower motors as we started out with Frank C's 22zx and it was thoroughly thought out by the time we got it. If I remember correctly that engine ran over 450hrs before a lack of oil got it... (not on my watch!)

Back to the drawling board then as it seems the only options are:
A) leave it stock
B) Upgrade the gear sets and rebuild the entire motor
C) Pull & sell the 496 and swap for one of these:

496 600hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=325)

540 marine 720hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=322)

Blown 496 800hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_301_118_121&products_id=318)


Too bad I missed out on the "cheap" Ilmor on OFO a few months ago!

The Hedgehog
01-28-2009, 08:04 PM
fasttrucker- We would be willing to sell ours in the $60's, but once you start to get into the $50's it just doesnt make sense to let it go. If I didn't own the 27ZR and someone told me that I could buy a boat like this (relatively new, the level of performance, lines, ext) for $55k I'd go out and buy one.
Air22- details details..... :bonk: I've heard that it is possible to upgrade to the XR internals and that would take care of the drive=grenade issue.
So really it sounds like at the bare minimum we could add a wipple and upgrade the gear sets and still expect that the motor will go boom within a relatively short period of time. I've just been spoiled when thinking about blower motors as we started out with Frank C's 22zx and it was thoroughly thought out by the time we got it. If I remember correctly that engine ran over 450hrs before a lack of oil got it... (not on my watch!)
Back to the drawling board then as it seems the only options are:
A) leave it stock
B) Upgrade the gear sets and rebuild the entire motor
C) Pull & sell the 496 and swap for one of these:
496 600hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=325)
540 marine 720hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=322)
Blown 496 800hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_301_118_121&products_id=318)
Too bad I missed out on the "cheap" Ilmor on OFO a few months ago!

Choices choices. The new engine idea is always good. I bet that you can get someone to do something similar to that in your neck of the woods. That's always good for warranty issues.

Young Performance has a couple of 540's he is blowing out. I am sure that Eddie will make a deal on those (he told me so).

I heard that you can upgrade the gears. That leaves the tower as a weak link. Bryan Rose (The Last Real Texan) has a B1 with the upgraded gears. He can probably provide insight on that.

I really want to see someone put some power to the 27ZR. I think it would be a great candidate.

Air 22
01-28-2009, 08:18 PM
fasttrucker- We would be willing to sell ours in the $60's, but once you start to get into the $50's it just doesnt make sense to let it go. If I didn't own the 27ZR and someone told me that I could buy a boat like this (relatively new, the level of performance, lines, ext) for $55k I'd go out and buy one.
Air22- details details..... :bonk: I've heard that it is possible to upgrade to the XR internals and that would take care of the drive=grenade issue.
So really it sounds like at the bare minimum we could add a wipple and upgrade the gear sets and still expect that the motor will go boom within a relatively short period of time. I've just been spoiled when thinking about blower motors as we started out with Frank C's 22zx and it was thoroughly thought out by the time we got it. If I remember correctly that engine ran over 450hrs before a lack of oil got it... (not on my watch!)
Back to the drawling board then as it seems the only options are:
A) leave it stock
B) Upgrade the gear sets and rebuild the entire motor
C) Pull & sell the 496 and swap for one of these:
496 600hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=325)
540 marine 720hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_117_119&products_id=322)
Blown 496 800hp (http://beckracingengines.com/performance/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=313_323_326_301_118_121&products_id=318)
Too bad I missed out on the "cheap" Ilmor on OFO a few months ago!
Good Luck in your quest:crossfing:...:wink: Keep us posted on ur status....and remember... its ALREADY the end of January....:nilly:....:wink:

jeddski
01-28-2009, 08:21 PM
I agree, if the choice is the spend a pile of cash on building up the 496 or buying a new motor I'd rather go new. The 496 can be sold in stock form and be used to powerup another boat (18 classic maybe..) Why reinvent the wheel?

Thanks for the suggestion on the local motors, my goal would be to see around 700hp which is sadly between Youngs 540 and 600cui motors. I'll drop him a line to see what type of deals he is running.

I'm really surprised that we havent seen any of these boats running more power. You'd think that with all of the "mildly" :shocking: powered up classics/zx's that there'd be a 27ZR running around in the mix as well.

This boat seems to be the perfect candidate for a bit more juice. Then again a 500+hp 80mph+ 22zx seemed just about right so what do I know? I guess Donzi hasnt built enough of them to see many owners tuning them. For that matter has anyone laid out the premium for the 525hp version yet?

jeddski
01-28-2009, 08:29 PM
The mid winter blues are the cause for my quest. Its cold and snowy up here!

Found a pre-loved XR/Imco combo that would solve the drive=grenade issue...
I wonder if it would be better to sell the 496/bravo as a package (rather than just the engine) and what that might bring on ebay these days?

Air 22
01-28-2009, 08:40 PM
The mid winter blues are the cause for my quest. Its cold and snowy up here!
Found a pre-loved XR/Imco combo that would solve the drive=grenade issue...
I wonder if it would be better to sell the 496/bravo as a package (rather than just the engine) and what that might bring on ebay these days?


Ebay may work for ya...watch out for deadbeat bidders:eek:......I found my HP500EFI on OSO:yes: and sold my 502 on OSO:kingme:...I listed on Craig's list, OSO, Speedwake, and Donzi .net....:pimp:

osur866
01-28-2009, 08:42 PM
I don't know this for fact and I've never got a chance to talk to the guy, but there is a 27ZR that runs in and out of my parents cove at LOTO and it does sound healthier than a 496. Could very well be a 500 this up coming summer I'm gonna try and hook up with him and find out for sure. Steve

The Hedgehog
01-28-2009, 09:25 PM
I agree, if the choice is the spend a pile of cash on building up the 496 or buying a new motor I'd rather go new. The 496 can be sold in stock form and be used to powerup another boat (18 classic maybe..) Why reinvent the wheel?
Thanks for the suggestion on the local motors, my goal would be to see around 700hp which is sadly between Youngs 540 and 600cui motors. I'll drop him a line to see what type of deals he is running.
I'm really surprised that we havent seen any of these boats running more power. You'd think that with all of the "mildly" :shocking: powered up classics/zx's that there'd be a 27ZR running around in the mix as well.
This boat seems to be the perfect candidate for a bit more juice. Then again a 500+hp 80mph+ 22zx seemed just about right so what do I know? I guess Donzi hasnt built enough of them to see many owners tuning them. For that matter has anyone laid out the premium for the 525hp version yet?

His 540 is not up on the site and can be tuned a number of ways. He also lowballs on hp figures. I have his 850 and he used a bunch of my stuff. I asked for a 850 but he gave me 942hp.

LKSD
01-29-2009, 08:16 AM
I heard a story about a go-fast with twin 496 and whipples.Both had to be rebilt at 60 hours.Seems the 502 had forged internals and the 496 is not(cheaper to produce).Raylar offers a kit to upgrade the motor.Plus you can spec. blower pistons.Jamie doesnt put a lot of hours on his donzi,s as he works too hard.So its not a problem for him.Iam sure he will respond about them.Have you dropped the price on your 27zr.There is a nice 2007 58 hours at smith mountain lake va.I think he will take $59,ooo.It was on e-bay for 64K


Thanks for the name dropping, but please dont speak too much for me. ;)

I dont like the insinuation that because I dont use my boat as much as some of you do that I would cut a corner or just slap something together half assed on it. I dont work that way nor do I wrench that way on my clients boats OR mine.. If I put something on my boat that was junk or that I felt may give me problems IT would be a problem for me. Despite what some may think I dont have a money tree to just do chit willy nilly. I think out what I do and what i spend my money and time on.

Just because I dont get as much time in my boat as I want to doesnt mean that I dont have any blown applications that have been in service with no problems & running strong for many years and hours now. I admit I dont have hundreds of hours on my personal boat yet WITH stock internals, but mine has been fine to date as well & I am going into the 3rd season with it already.

Bill, Im not trying to attack you. I have met you several times and I have known you for a while now, I know that you mean well. But please re-think some things before just throwing them out there like that. :) Jamie

LKSD
01-29-2009, 08:34 AM
I have also sold and installed more than 1 whipple kit. And I have installed numerous other blowers on different applications as well..

Being that we are all going over this 496 hop up stuff again:

I have said it before & I will say it again. Reliability also has to do with the set up, tuning & how you use or abuse your boat. I have seen blown units last hundreds of hours and I have seen them last a weekend. The same thing with Bravo drives. Also the old 525's used to come with a standard bravo 1 from merc & some of them were 525 Sc's.. The 496 Mag Ho's in the Zr's have a B1x at minimum. The X is the B1 performance Diesel drive redesigned a little bit with the newer upper housing. It is not the same as an xr, but it is not a bad drive.

I do have one in my 26zx. Im going into the third season. I have not had any mechanical problems with it, but I also did some other enhancements to the engines oil & cooling system. I am quite happy with mine to date & I do have some time on it. Just not as much as I want to..

The whipple makes about 625 hp on the 496 mag Ho with stock internals @ 5-6psi. Proper set up and tuning on this unit though with stock internals is absolutley crucial. The earlier 454/502 Mag mpis were a little more forgiving.

The main thing on the 496's that you dont want to have happen is detonation. The hypertectic pistons can handle into the low 600's without having major issues if it is tuned in properly. You cant have an overly lean or rich condition. This is one of the reasons why the whipple with the correct ecm program and sensors is a better way to go if you want boost on a 496. not to mention the nice intercooler it has.

That said I am of the opinion though that if you were to go for more power on the 496 above & beyond the 5-6psi 625hp that you are now well beyond what is reasonable for the internals. So without question the forged internals then are a must have. Even Raylar's upgrades dont all require the piston change. Again there is a lot to be said for tuning and set up. It isnt always the power that breaks pistons. As this seems to be the concern of many.

The other option out there is the Raylar kits. They also make good power with swapping out usually Heads, cam & intake. They also can use an ecm flash to go along with the mods depending on what you do. Especially if one has a non mag ho 496 that they are going to turn into one of the Raylar 525's or bigger. These kits are good for those who dont want a blower set up, or for those that want to further build their boosted application, etc...

I hope this info helps any of you thinking of upgrading, enhancing or repowering. As you all know I am available if anyone needs my services. :)

I will go into exhaust if someone brings it up, but I am exhausted for now.. lol :D Jamie / Lakeside

jeddski
01-29-2009, 12:53 PM
Hedgehog- thanks for the input on the engines, I'll give him a call over the next few days. Swapping the 425hp 496HO w/bravo1x for a 700hp 540cu w/bravo XR+Imco could be the perfect package... If the prices work out this time around I'll keep everyone in the loop.
Jamie- thanks again for the information, I know that you and I had spoken at length last winter. Over the course of those conversations I grew to understand that you would never build something half-arsed and that anything leaving your shop would be ready to go.
It just seems to me that building up the engine internals is a near neccessity when adding a whipple. Once you add a $7k whipple and possibly a few bolt ons you might as well go all out and build up the rest of the motor to get the most hp out of as possible. (just my $0.02) But then the issue is that you have to invest serious cash to build that sort of motor, the good news is that it would produce serious power!
My original question was if Whipples claim (of simply bolting a supercharger to a stock engine) has been put to the test on many boats. I guess you could bolt it on, tune the engine properly, and hope for the best. Also a tempting senario... and now I'm back where i started!
Last question: is there much of a weight difference between the 496HO and the 540cui engines? On merc's site I can only find the engine weight including the drive (1,199 lbs)

The Hedgehog
01-29-2009, 01:02 PM
Jamie's boat may have low hours but one thing I know from doing business with him is that it is set up right.

If you are going to boost a 496, Whipple is the way to go.

fasttrucker
01-29-2009, 01:15 PM
Jamie,take it easy......I know you would have the answer,that you must tune it the ecu.for the whipple on a stock 496.Kidding you about having a nice donzi and not running it much,do to working too much.You need to get down to the bay more.Ill buy the drinks,on second thought, first one to the tiki bar buys!
Jedski,The prices of boats have fallen like a lead brick.But since the boat companys have cut production.There will be less available good used boats around in a few years.That might get the prices up,that is once obama saves the county from the evil bush economic melt down and everyone is working again.:crossfing:

fasttrucker
01-29-2009, 01:18 PM
I had a stock bravo-1 and it never broke.10 years on it over 600+ h.p.:yes: I think its all about the way you drive.Slow starts and no air time.

The Hedgehog
01-29-2009, 01:37 PM
One thing to consider is that you can't really apply crate motor prices to full swap. You also need to consider accesories, exhaust, wiring harness and labor. My guess is you could be done with a whipple for around 10k (correct me if I am off Jamie). A turn key custom built drop in that magnitude in will cost between 25-35k depending on parts. That does not mean that if you know what you are doing and can find various parts that you could not do it yourself cheaper. That is just what a real nice motor costs.

That does not mean that I think it is a bad idea, they just are not apples and oranges.

fasttrucker
01-29-2009, 02:25 PM
Jamie's boat may have low hours but one thing I know from doing business with him is that it is set up right.
If you are going to boost a 496, Whipple is the way to go.
Yes.,Iam not sure how my post of him not using his boat like I do(i run 100hours a year and live on the bay)implys that hes a bad meck.?/person.Give me a break in fact my mentioning him as a person who knows a lot about superchargers is a +....Oh,well as far as whipple vrs procharger I dont really know.Not dun it.I was looking at blower-shop once.

LKSD
01-29-2009, 05:27 PM
One thing to consider is that you can't really apply crate motor prices to full swap. You also need to consider accesories, exhaust, wiring harness and labor. My guess is you could be done with a whipple for around 10k (correct me if I am off Jamie). A turn key custom built drop in that magnitude in will cost between 25-35k depending on parts. That does not mean that if you know what you are doing and can find various parts that you could not do it yourself cheaper. That is just what a real nice motor costs.
That does not mean that I think it is a bad idea, they just are not apples and oranges.

Yes you are correct. I would say that a custom engine, or even if you buy a crate engine without the accessories by the time you are done for say 500hp or more, 20k and up with the sky as the limit is not out of line. That is if you are buying all the stuff like exhaust, electronics, starter, alternator, fuel system parts, mountings, coolers, water pump, etc all are costs that add up quick. These parts are not transferable from a 496 to a 454/502/509/540 etc.. At least with very little exception.. And then dont forget labor if you are not doing it yourself..

:) Jamie

LKSD
01-29-2009, 05:48 PM
FastTrucker, Im not mad at you. And like I said I have known you for quite a while now, so I know you meant well.. Sometimes things can be taken a few different ways, and some of them not always good. Thats why I had a bit of a lil rant for a minute or 2 there. :)

Anyway, yes next time Kristin & I get down to the bay & can manage to get out for a drink or 2 we can get together.. :) I wish I could make it this weekend to the last party at the Nauti Goose as we know it.. But hopefully it will be as good or better with the new owners so we can hit it up next time we are in NE.. :)

Jamie :)

.

jeddski
01-29-2009, 07:32 PM
Thanks for all of the info!

On the bravo 1x, I'd be nervous running 600+hp through it especially with a single engine boat knowing that one slip up going through the channel on a rough day could be disastrous. So upgrading the drive would be a requirement. (as much as we all baby our donzis we do occasionally feel the need to check out their engineers calculations/design work!)

I was comparing an internally built up and whippled 496 to a crate motor. We had priced a built/blown 496 package last year and the engine upgrades were running upwards of $14k for parts alone, not counting labor.

I figured by the time you build up a "bullet proof" whippled/496 you'd be at a price point where you could go buy a crate motor and then pad the budget a little by selling the 496. Which was the reason for asking the original question regarding if anyone had any long-term experience with simply bolting on a whipple (and tuning it but not replacing the internals).

The downside to the crate as everyone pointed out is that you need to add:
-accessories
-an oil cooler
-a closed cooling system
-possibly rework the wiring harness
-ext
All of which are not an issue if the 496 was tuned up and left in the boat.

Time to get busy at work so that I have the funds to make a proper decision before Spring!

The Hedgehog
01-29-2009, 09:45 PM
Thanks for all of the info!
On the bravo 1x, I'd be nervous running 600+hp through it especially with a single engine boat knowing that one slip up going through the channel on a rough day could be disastrous. So upgrading the drive would be a requirement. (as much as we all baby our donzis we do occasionally feel the need to check out their engineers calculations/design work!)
I was comparing an internally built up and whippled 496 to a crate motor. We had priced a built/blown 496 package last year and the engine upgrades were running upwards of $14k for parts alone, not counting labor.
I figured by the time you build up a "bullet proof" whippled/496 you'd be at a price point where you could go buy a crate motor and then pad the budget a little by selling the 496. Which was the reason for asking the original question regarding if anyone had any long-term experience with simply bolting on a whipple (and tuning it but not replacing the internals).
The downside to the crate as everyone pointed out is that you need to add:
-accessories
-an oil cooler
-a closed cooling system
-possibly rework the wiring harness
-ext
All of which are not an issue if the 496 was tuned up and left in the boat.
Time to get busy at work so that I have the funds to make a proper decision before Spring!

Drive belt kit & mounting brackets (V or Serpentine), the Hardin Serpentine system costs around $3,500
Exhause (there is a biggie)
Ignition system and tails.
A whole bunch of hoses and fittings (don't forget the pretty hose covers)

A bunch of these can be done different ways. For instance: If you go with a good serpentine system and CMI's you are talking over $7,500 right there. Or you could go V-belt and IMCO's and be done for $3,500-$4,000.

You would be amazed at how the small stuff adds up though. Jamie can tell you what he spent on just doing A/N fittings on his Whipple install.

and if I was going to be throwing out over 600hp, I would want to know who set up those heads.

PlumCrazy
01-30-2009, 10:52 AM
This would get you movin'

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3739

The Hedgehog
01-30-2009, 11:02 AM
This would get you movin'

http://www.seriousoffshore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3739

What is it?

It does not come up on my computer

PlumCrazy
01-30-2009, 01:14 PM
Fantastic price for this kind of power...

1-698 cu.in. 1100-1200 SC engine. This engine is a complete rebuild with the following: Merlin 11.625 block, Crower Enduro 4340 forged crankshaft 5.250 stroke (mag good), Crower billet rods 7.750 long, new JE pistons 8.2:1 compression, mech. roller camshaft with new roller lifters, gear drive timing system, new bearings, rings, and gaskets. 16 qt. Stef's pan with new single stage external Weaver oil pump, fluidampner balancer, Brodix CNC cylinder heads with all new valve train components,new Mooneyham 1271 supercharger, Lee intercooler housing (needs new core) alternator, Merc. dist with new 8.5 MSD ignition wires. Engine needs some marinizing to finish. No carbs included. new Hardin Marine H20 water inlet. call for details. Blow out price!! $12,000.00 Great for a single engine missle! (216) 398-8500

Dean Gellner

The Hedgehog
01-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Fantastic price for this kind of power...

1-698 cu.in. 1100-1200 SC engine. This engine is a complete rebuild with the following: Merlin 11.625 block, Crower Enduro 4340 forged crankshaft 5.250 stroke (mag good), Crower billet rods 7.750 long, new JE pistons 8.2:1 compression, mech. roller camshaft with new roller lifters, gear drive timing system, new bearings, rings, and gaskets. 16 qt. Stef's pan with new single stage external Weaver oil pump, fluidampner balancer, Brodix CNC cylinder heads with all new valve train components,new Mooneyham 1271 supercharger, Lee intercooler housing (needs new core) alternator, Merc. dist with new 8.5 MSD ignition wires. Engine needs some marinizing to finish. No carbs included. new Hardin Marine H20 water inlet. call for details. Blow out price!! $12,000.00 Great for a single engine missle! (216) 398-8500

Dean Gellner

Dang, that is a hoss. That is a pretty sporty deal.

Did you do the work Dean?

PlumCrazy
01-30-2009, 01:45 PM
Dang, that is a hoss. That is a pretty sporty deal.

Did you do the work Dean?

I'm not Dean. He's a well-known engine builder who posted that add over on seriousoffshore.
http://gellnerengines.com/

LKSD
01-30-2009, 05:30 PM
Not a bad price, but you STILL need Exhaust, Intercooler core, Carbs & fuel system at minimum if you look closely & read closely... They still add up to thousands of dollars. Also it is a rebuild, not new.. I bet you would probably still come in to almost 20k or more by the time you are done unless you already have the stuff. & thats not including the labor.

Mind you I am not bashing Dean or his products or prices. I have not heard anything bad about him. I am just saying that the money still adds up like HedgeHog mentioned and it doesnt take long..

:) Jamie

Donziweasel
01-30-2009, 05:37 PM
Bill, you just calm down. You have a ski trip to pay for......don't even think about it....:wink::bonk:

The Hedgehog
01-30-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm not Dean. He's a well-known engine builder who posted that add over on seriousoffshore.
http://gellnerengines.com/

Like Jamie, I have not heard any bad things about Dean. I hear he is good. Maybe if he did the work and will stand behind it, it's a good deal. You will still drop mucho coin on that beast. I actually own one of Eddie's engines. It came warranteed and it is a work of art. It sounds like no other.

The Hedgehog
01-30-2009, 07:21 PM
Bill, you just calm down. You have a ski trip to pay for......don't even think about it....:wink::bonk:

Man, I am getting more ready by the day.:pimp:

Skiing, snow mobiling and the whole weasel tour. This is going to be great.

I am so pissed that Tex and I can't go at the same time. I think we will do just fine though:yes: