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Donziweasel
01-13-2009, 05:06 PM
I decided to start a new thread because I have made my decision on the engine for the Critter.

That thread did bring up some interesting points.

Personally, I think this is a ver exciting time for performance boating powerplants. V-10's from Imor, Teague powerplants, GM's new amazing lineup, and ole' reliable, Merc.

Question is, will Merc make it? Merc has not invested crap into their sterndrive program in years. The small blocks are pretty much the same since the dawn of time. The carbed 270 hp merc 350 has been around FOREVER. The fuel injection version at 300 hp isn't a youngster anymore either. They have the 6.2L, but why? It is a whole 20 hp more than the 350. The Scorpion was nice, but has long since died.

Then you have the BB's. The 454 was aorund in 330 hp config for years, then the 502@ 415 hp. Then the 496 Mag at 425.

Now you have GM with a LS3 SB NA at 418 hp. The LSA @ 540, plus a LS3 Sb @ 385, a LS2 @ 390 hp, and a couple of comparable 350's to Merc's.

GM also has it's own line of BB 496's also.

If you were looking at a 27 ZR and you could have the 496 Mag at 425 hp or the LSA engine at 540 for the same price, what would you choose?

Is GM trying to run Merc out of business? If so, can they do it? Are they trying to kill the BB in performance boating? The Merc dealers I have spoken with (not Scot) are fed up with Merc. They say the are hard to deal with, don't care, and basically it is their way or the highway.

Just interested to hear what others think of this.

HOWARD O
01-13-2009, 05:32 PM
Today's small blocks are amazing, but cubic inches with big, low end torque is what I'd be after for that Criterion! :popcorn:

fogducker III
01-13-2009, 05:39 PM
My personal opinion is, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" Meaning, Merc has had a long and VERY successful run with this line of engines so why change them? Better fuel economy? If fuel is a worry for our style of boater, get out of the game now.........the Merc line of marine engines have proven themselves over the years and yes perhaps merc needs to step up on the R&D but why? They are selling the stuff they have now. And remember there are boats in other places than the US...............:wink:

I just think GM sees things in the auto industry going tits up so they are spreading their wings into marine engines...? Just a thought?

Donziweasel
01-13-2009, 05:57 PM
Jeremy, the point is that now Merc has some serious competition. They were not forced to change because they were the only game in town, unless you count Volvo. Now they are not.

Why change? Better economy, more efficiency, reliabilty, longevity and a bunch more.

The SB lineup from GM was announced prior to the car market going down. These engines were announced almost a year ago.

BigGrizzly
01-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Let me be the first to jump in Merc is in financial mismanagement trouble. Next They never designed a motor b y them selves. They were either Ford- early days or GM oem stuff to begin with. Merc has concentrated on the OB market. They did however did do the closed cooling on the 496, not GM. That happened in Stillwater OK. One of the designers designed my closed cooling system for the Criterion. Most of the accessories were jobbed out. A lot of the stuff was designed not far from here. The new GM power plants started as class racing equipment and evolved from there. GM isn't truing to run Merc out of business. Merc is capable of doing it all by themselves. Oth only thing different now is they are stating for Marine use on these crate motors. The only problem with the Imor is time they will get much better. Right now most builders are throwing stuff at it and not testing it well or long enough. Heard about many issues with some builders. ust because you can get a grand of ponies out of it easily it takes more to keep the horses in the coral if you get my drift. there is a Georgia boy who had 6 big failures in a row. The real problem was the builder and user, not the motor design. There is an Adrenalin,with twin 710s, around here that flat kicks butt. I won't get into the Teague thing, if for no other reason than That man CAN drive.
Now get the :popcorn: ready. In the case of the 27ZR, first you can't get the 540 for the same price as the 496. I do not think I could be happy with a 27 foot Donzi with the ZR tag on it doing 72 mph. So 496 is out. I personally When you get that much frontal area it will take some innovative ponies. I would go the LSA over the 496. That being said There , for me, are better options. If I had many $$$ I have 4 options. 1)The Imor could have a home. If for no other reason I worked for HONDA and am partial to many cylinders. 2) I have seen the Dmax prototype marine application and am REALLY impressed. Of course that means the Powerstroke is just around the corner. 3) a good old Home grown speedster. 4) wait until next spring, oops I can't get that top back on that can. And Finally, just to see if it could be done put on a set of clipons, naw scratch that.

fogducker III
01-13-2009, 06:12 PM
I believe a year ago, and even longer, GM knew where the market was going...........a large number of other companies did as well. that is why they have stepped out to another market.

Your right though, Merc was one of the only "mid market" marine players out there, but GM coming up with a couple of high performance marine small block engines, in my opinion, is not going to put Merc out of business. Think of all the Merc engines and legs/drive units out there, most people can not afford to just go out and buy a new motor and drive package, they fix the old one, hence Merc will be in business for a while. Plus, "most" people out there stick with what they know as far as a "name" brand.

I like the idea that GM is throwing some competion at Merc, putting them out of business? I don't think so.

Donziweasel
01-13-2009, 06:21 PM
Randy, you hit the nail on the head when you said Merc is doing a fine job all on their own of running themsleves out to the sterndrive market. I have heard that from many people, dealers, customers, etc.....

Jeremy, Merc does still have cutting edge technology in the outboard market. GM has set the bar pretty high with thier lineup and it is affordable. If I owned, lets say, Adrenaline Powerboats and hated the company supplying my drives and engines, why not start offering the GM stuff? I think this is going to make Merc at least look at updating there lineup.

Ilmor has started with a V-10, but I think that is only the beginning. Ilmor might expand thier lineup as well.

Donziweasel
01-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Volvo, Konrad, Imco, Arneson.......:bonk:

Maybe GM is working on a drive.......

onesubdrvr
01-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Who's drives you going to attach to those GM engines?

An there-in lies the problem, and one of my biggest frustrations at this point.

Alpha - crap for most of our applications
Bravo - OK for my application (16 / 18), but for anything else??
What else? then you get into the hybrid, improved not mercruiser, but mercruiser stuff, and it's EXPENSIVE!

I REALLY REALLY REALLY really really wish that Volvo would step up to the plate and get serious about putting a whoopin on mercury!!

Wayne

BUIZILLA
01-13-2009, 07:24 PM
I don't think GM is trying to run anybody out of business, especially a potential marinizer that buys engines from them...

with that said, GM is NOT getting DIRECTLY into the marine engine business, that portfolio tickle was to let the public know the *what if's* that are on the sidelines... if they were serious, they would show a dressed package....

I also think wayyyyyy too much is being read into the LSA platform unveiling as a GM dagger.... has anybody actually seen a marinized LSanything engine? I have seen 2, in the same boat, that the owner himself marinized from 2 wrecked C5 Vette's, and built his own exhaust and cooling for... other than that, none commercially exist, nada... the pic's shown herein are of a drop in car package, absolutely nothing marine about that.... so, until I see with my own eyes a true marinized version, i'll believe it when I see/hear it... the ski boat market will probably be first...

if anybody does it against the black marquee, Crusader will be, IMO, a forefront repower contender, their current 380hp slim mouse is no small feat..

you may as well embrace and prepare for this LS platform , because the factory old school engine days are quickly numbered... I firmly believe this is the future, and I also believe Volvo, or Crusader, or someone else could tool up and run with this, while Brunswick fights their current noose issues.

what I find is a very exciting prospect is if GM would advertise or promote their current 3.5L or so V6 engines as being marine friendly.... they could set the elements on fire with a lightweight 300 hp V6 package like the Acadia/Outlook/Traverse has. Won't happen, but it's a neat thought..

the Miami Show may unleash some surprises, who knows... I, for one, seriously welcome some new and forward thinking... the marine engine biz is gonna be flat for the next 3-5 years at least, so it will be interesting to see who is or is not doing what next month... any engine marinizer that doesn't show up, will be conspicuous by their absence regardless of what they have to offer..

onesubdrvr
01-13-2009, 07:28 PM
Jim,

I'm hoping to make it down to the show next month, and hopefully spend some time with you, Poodle and Grizz to get into some in-depth discussion about the high hp v-6 option like you listed above.

I'd be hoping for considerably more than the 300hp, but hopefully we can start there and get bigger.

Talk to you soon
Wayne

BigGrizzly
01-13-2009, 07:32 PM
I still hear that merc building engines, Fact1 Merc only assembles a small portion of their stuff. The test comes from GM assembled in crates and some other companies do their Reman business, which they are going to screw up soon. Again Merc does not even make or design their camshafts. For what we on Donzi net use they are only a distributor, and a poor one at that. There is not one good speed shop that can't beat their price and have the same or better durability As for Volvo, they are doing fine, the only reason for not going that direction is modification, no shorty. Me I would not put one on my boat no need. I go as fast as I want and get outstanding fuel economy. I will not tell you any embarrassing Merc stories because they prety well doing it themselves. The truth is very few won't buy merc, because they are convenient and easy to get a hold of. Why should they worry, they have 89 boat manufacturers putting their stuff out and thats only the ones they own. They don't even really care about the consumer.

mjw930
01-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Just an FYI, Volvo has been testing their marinized version of the LS package in NA and SC versions for well over 6 months, Expect to see something at one of the early '09 shows, probably Miami.

Donziweasel
01-13-2009, 08:22 PM
Just an FYI, Volvo has been testing their marinized version of the LS package in NA and SC versions for well over 6 months, Expect to see something at one of the early '09 shows, probably Miami.

Now that is cool! :)

mjw930
01-13-2009, 09:18 PM
Just an FYI, Volvo has been testing their marinized version of the LS package in NA and SC versions for well over 6 months, Expect to see something at one of the early '09 shows, probably Miami.

Now that is cool! :)

I checked my old emails and it looks like they were planning for 2010 but that was before GM made everything public as 2009 releases. Who knows what the real introduction dates are. I would suspect that at least one of the repower companies will have something to show in Miami.

handfulz28
01-13-2009, 10:56 PM
has anybody actually seen a marinized LSanything engine?

Not personally, installed and running in a boat. But:

http://boatstoreonline.com/mp6_0L_mercruiser_replacement.html

http://www.crusaderengines.com/Products/6_0.html

http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Indmar/6.0L-SS/index.html

Donziweasel
01-14-2009, 07:45 AM
It looks like Merc had better start doing some R&D, or whoever they contract to do it, if they are going to remain competitive. These LS engines, IMHO, are the future of SB (and maybe BB) marine enignes.

Air 22
01-15-2009, 06:58 AM
What ever happend to the HP3? I remember seeing this engine @ the Miami Boat Show in 2003...Sweet motor:wink:

http://sysdoc.doors.ch/GM/HP3marine.pdf

handfulz28
01-15-2009, 10:18 AM
What ever happend to the HP3? I remember seeing this engine @ the Miami Boat Show in 2003...Sweet motor:wink:

http://sysdoc.doors.ch/GM/HP3marine.pdf

I forget where I read the story and who was telling it, but the jist was that Merc was pissed about GM offering a 525hp motor. Plus, the way GM (actually built by Innovation) made the power wasn't as user friendly as the Merc 525EFI. Merc dominates the OEM market with their complete package, the HP3 goes away.

BigGrizzly
01-15-2009, 11:06 AM
Actually it goes deeper then that. It was also that Merc was POed at the world and had a lawsuit against ALL Japanese marine manufactures for product dumping as well. Merc was buying blocks from Mexico while still under contractual agreements with GM. GM wasn't trying to undermine Merc, they don't care.

Donziweasel
01-15-2009, 06:48 PM
So, GM is not offering the H3 motor? Man, nice package if they did.

rustnrot
01-15-2009, 07:52 PM
I helped spec, buy, and install 3 of the 6.0 L PCM engines, two in a 30 footer, one in a replica Chris Craft Cobra. That was when they were 375-380 hp, now I see with O2 sensors and better controls they are at 409 hp.

http://www.pcmengines.com/pdf/engines/specs/zr409_spec_sheet.pdf

sweet 16 1966
01-15-2009, 09:07 PM
Is 930 #'s heavy?

mjw930
01-15-2009, 09:15 PM
Is 930 #'s heavy?

Not when you factor in that's with all the accessories and an inline transmission.

BigGrizzly
01-16-2009, 10:12 AM
Actually, my 502 in running condition minus the heat exchanger. is right around that. That is including the Merctrans. The bare engine. that is engine, no exhaust, no trans, no procharger but carb in the box, no raw water pump and PS pump, runs just about 745 pounds.

Boatless
01-16-2009, 02:52 PM
I ran a few of these "HP3's" and they are basically a 496 that was marinized by Innovation Marine in St. Pete Fl.

These are the same people that were in with Volvo when Volvo was offering their 600 hp engine package.

This is also why the HP3 has the Volvo water pump and Volvo style system controls on it.

The initial problem with the HP3 was the power. They were making crankshaft 525-530 and were trying to race against the 525 Merc which makes 550-565 at the crank. Also the fuel management was a problem on the HP3 as when it reached the rev limiter it would DUMP fuel and if that did not pull you back it would shut down the motor and you had to completely shut them off and restart them to reset the computer. Not good during the races.

Rumor was at the time that GM did this because at this point in History they stopped producing the 454 based production engine and thus wanted Merc to start purchasing the new 496 format engine. Merc refused and said they could produce the 502 without any GM parts and the feud started, rest is history.

I see GM literature on the supercharged small block. The LSA? The 427 corvette small block has proven troublesome in the boats. Well at least troublesome when one runs the piss out of them. While GM makes all the part necessary to make the 427 a great motor, they do not sell the engine built like this. You have to change the pistons to the forged ones, you have to change the cam, change the valves and such or else.. BOOM

The 6.2L that is in the Cadillac and the new big powered Corvette is a better block and it has all the forged parts. This engine has some real potential in a boat as they are small in length, unlike the Ilmor, they make a lot of power thanks to the blower, they are compact due to the excellent packaging of the blower/intercooler intake manifold/ and they can be purchased for a lot less than a BBC from Merc.

Donziweasel
01-16-2009, 03:03 PM
Boatless, I agree, a very potent power package for marine use. I think this would be a great powerplant for an 18 if you wanted to go FAST. Should fit in a 16 also.........

Boatless
01-16-2009, 04:06 PM
I don't know the pricing on the 6.2L but the GM crate engine 427 is about 12.5K then you get CMI- Hardin-Stellings to make a set of headers for it or a port adapter to the curent small block header that CMI makes then add electronics. MEFI 4 will work on it.

There is a company in FL that makes "Air Boats" that claims they are the ones that are marinizing this 6.2L with the blower for GM? They are very proud. $24K each, 600 hp though. Probably could probably buy it direct from GM for way less and add headers and a fresh water package if needed due to the Aluminum parts.

gcarter
01-16-2009, 05:06 PM
It seems a few months ago when we were all kicking the tires on the GM marinized SBC where in the brochure it was stated it had Hyper Eutectic pistons, not forged (I think). A small point, but if that's true, what does it say about the basic execution of the automotive engine, is it that good as it comes down the line?

I would have suspected the inboard marinizers would have been the first to offer these engines. They all do a good job and their market is very competitive, unlike Merc and Volvo. I get the impression that Merc does and offers what it wants to and Volvo offers their products to boat mfgrs that they have contracts with...........

Boatless
01-16-2009, 05:54 PM
I once heard that of all the marine engines that GM makes, Merc, Volvo, Indmar, Crusader, etc. only occupied four days worth of production for GM time.

To some degree, Merc and the others are just purchasing a GM motor and then they add their electronics and accessories to them. I truly believe that all the 496's are the same regardless of who marinized it, same with the other engines.

Now the Merc HP motors are the only ones that Merc claims they build themselves.

The new small blocks will be the future simply due to the fact that GM is no longer going to make a BBC. The 496 will be gone. They really don't have to have one as they have the diesel for big things, and the new small blocks put out much more torque than the current 496's do and get better emissions at the same time.

In a few years this is what you are going to see.

The Hedgehog
01-16-2009, 06:46 PM
I once heard that of all the marine engines that GM makes, Merc, Volvo, Indmar, Crusader, etc. only occupied four days worth of production for GM time.
To some degree, Merc and the others are just purchasing a GM motor and then they add their electronics and accessories to them. I truly believe that all the 496's are the same regardless of who marinized it, same with the other engines.
Now the Merc HP motors are the only ones that Merc claims they build themselves.
The new small blocks will be the future simply due to the fact that GM is no longer going to make a BBC. The 496 will be gone. They really don't have to have one as they have the diesel for big things, and the new small blocks put out much more torque than the current 496's do and get better emissions at the same time.
In a few years this is what you are going to see.

Yep. And they will all need boost

gcarter
01-16-2009, 07:53 PM
I'm waitin' to see some Diesels.
I think that would be exciting.
Lots and lots of low end grunt.

Air 22
01-16-2009, 08:04 PM
"Life begins in Mercury Racing's four-cycle Race Shop. Technicians spend over 100 hours building the 557 cu. in. engines from bare block to completion using specialized components throughout the engine."
http://mercuryracing.com/sterndrives/hp1075sci.php
I don't think BB will be gone for a looooooong time...I'm just say'n:pimp:

Boatless
01-17-2009, 01:19 AM
"Life begins in Mercury Racing's four-cycle Race Shop. Technicians spend over 100 hours building the 557 cu. in. engines from bare block to completion using specialized components throughout the engine."
http://mercuryracing.com/sterndrives/hp1075sci.php
I don't think BBC will be gone for a looooooong time...I'm just say'n:pimp:

From GM they are gone.

Those are built with totally non GM parts. DART or Merlin blocks, and so on.

mjw930
01-17-2009, 07:44 AM
Many here seem to have a love affair with Merc Blue motors but if you really took the time to shop around you would find a number of engine builders that produce packages sourcing the same parts (usually better for things like bottom ends, valve trains, etc.) that can be had for a fraction of the Merc price fully dressed and ready to plug into your boat. I'm just sayin' :pimp:

Air 22
01-17-2009, 08:01 AM
From GM they are gone.
Those are built with totally non GM parts. DART or Merlin blocks, and so on.

You are correct my bad..:wink::bonk: I meant that Big Blocks will be around for a looooooong time...:)

Air 22
01-17-2009, 08:17 AM
Many here seem to have a love affair with Merc Blue motors but if you really took the time to shop around you would find a number of engine builders that produce packages sourcing the same parts (usually better for things like bottom ends, valve trains, etc.) that can be had for a fraction of the Merc price fully dressed and ready to plug into your boat. I'm just sayin' :pimp:


Why then would there be this love affair here and in the Racing Arena? Could it be race proven reliability in numerous custom and production line boats? I'm bet the list is longer for why they are so popular vs. not. The ILMOR motor looks very promising as well:wink:

Just an example....
The World's Most Versatile Performance Engine
The Mercury Racing HP525 EFI is world renowned for its performance on and offthe race course. Twin 525 EFIs coupled to dry-sump Six drives were the power behind Dragon Powerboat's 2006 UIM P-1Offshore Series European Championship. The engine package is also the power behind numerous National and World Championship class winners in both U.S. Offshore Super Series and Super Boat International offshore racing.

Reliability, durability and overall performance are the reasons that offshore racers choose the 525 EFI as their power of choice. This race-proven consumer engine is a favorite among recreation sport boaters and poker runners as well.

Enhancements include the PCM 07 microprocessor, universal engine mounts, increased engine oil flow and a larger volume and higher flow power steering system. Changes in the power steering system provide OEM boat builders with the option to rig two power steering pumps (dual engines) in series. Engine protection is enhanced thanks to increased engine oil flow through the filter and cooler.

Engine drive packages include Bravo One XR, Bravo One XR Sport Master, Bravo Three XR and dry-sump Six drive. The optional Integrated Transom System (ITS) provides hydraulic steering on the drive while making the transom more aesthetically pleasing and simplifying installation

I looked around and found a very very nice Blue Motor..no regrets...I'm just say'n:pimp:

BigGrizzly
01-17-2009, 10:10 AM
Air, The reason for merc racing is because of racing politics. If you really knew how many Merc racing engines have to be fixed to be competitive in class racing, you would drop your jaw. Of all the engines we have put on the Dyno, not one has reached their Hp ratings without some fix or change. The options or countless. The truth is the new blocks are better then the merc anyway. Of course it is only an experienced opinion. Under most of our Donzi applications they are a good bolt in option with few troubles. That being said, unfortunately there are some poor engine builders out there, that give out a bad name to all of us. Just like Merc controls there is better stuff out there and less expensive. Look at your boat it is cheaper to upgrade then replace.

Air 22
01-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Grizz..There is a reason why Merc is #1 IMO...call it what u want..but their stuff is proven. You can build buy n cheaper for sure...:wink: There are 100's of great engine builders I agree....some cheaper some not..take the TCM 900EFI..not exactly cheap but a super engine:yes:

Its like Ford vs. Chevy...an opinion ...not a fact... and I respect yours Randy..:wink:

roadtrip se
01-17-2009, 10:30 AM
For those of you just looking for ammo to slam Mercury, I would stop reading right about now......





Okay, for the rest of you. Griz is right, I got very burned by a "custom" engine builder in the past, so I have been much more comfortable with blue power for years. I've owned five 500s in various applications since 1997.

1) Throttle Up. Back when APBA was hot, Julie and Matt supported many of these teams, including tuning beyond props. Julie mentioned mutiple times about how the ECM pulls on these motors would show the majority of hours at 80% or better of throttle. Politics may have gotten Mercury in the circut, but if their motors had failed, they wouldn't have been there long.

2) Sterling. Mike D'Annibelle's shop is two miles from my my door step in Michigan, so he gets to tolerate me on a regular basis. I have talked to him a couple of times about "refreshing" the 500 in the Donzi. His quotes always invlove very little rehab work, and when I have asked him about it, he always says, "that motor won't need it". When I get ready, Mike will get my work even if I have to bring it up from Kentucky.

3) My Experience. The first carbed motor had some vapor locking issues in the heat. That's it. Every other problem I have had with these things has been of my own creation. And of course, those who run with me at rally events know that I baby the things all the time.

4) Value. I bought the last one for $12.5K as a take out from Lipschutz. It had 31 hours on it and checked out through a very rigorous inspection by Blanchard Technolgies at perfect. It roared from day one in our boat. I am just now thinking about sinking some money into it at 240 hours. Interesting thing most of the Cig boys are running juiced blue motors, including Phil himself.


So any way, my Merc experience has been pretty good. And I'll stick with them...

Okay, I'm done.

BigGrizzly
01-17-2009, 10:50 AM
Air22, If I were in your position I would have gone that route. I however not in that position. I have been burned more then not. If I didn't know the people that I know and have workede in that business my whole life I definitely would have gone that route. I am not trying to beat up Merc, We have dynoed many engines from other makers also. So not beating anyone up I will say, since RT brought them up, Sterling is one of the only guys I would really trust I have seen there stuff on the Dyno. They at least as stated, there is NO question about that. They are pricey, but so is Garry. You get what you PAY for. BTW Road trip is a pansy he always babies his boat what a sand bagger:pizza:

BUIZILLA
01-17-2009, 12:55 PM
BTW Road trip is a pansy he always babies his boat what a sand bagger:pizza: there you go with that clique stuff again...

The Hedgehog
01-17-2009, 01:11 PM
For those of you just looking for ammo to slam Mercury, I would stop reading right about now......
Okay, for the rest of you. Griz is right, I got very burned by a "custom" engine builder in the past, so I have been much more comfortable with blue power for years. I've owned five 500s in various applications since 1997.
1) Throttle Up. Back when APBA was hot, Julie and Matt supported many of these teams, including tuning beyond props. Julie mentioned mutiple times about how the ECM pulls on these motors would show the majority of hours at 80% or better of throttle. Politics may have gotten Mercury in the circut, but if their motors had failed, they wouldn't have been there long.
2) Sterling. Mike D'Annibelle's shop is two miles from my my door step in Michigan, so he gets to tolerate me on a regular basis. I have talked to him a couple of times about "refreshing" the 500 in the Donzi. His quotes always invlove very little rehab work, and when I have asked him about it, he always says, "that motor won't need it". When I get ready, Mike will get my work even if I have to bring it up from Kentucky.
3) My Experience. The first carbed motor had some vapor locking issues in the heat. That's it. Every other problem I have had with these things has been of my own creation. And of course, those who run with me at rally events know that I baby the things all the time.
4) Value. I bought the last one for $12.5K as a take out from Lipschutz. It had 31 hours on it and checked out through a very rigorous inspection by Blanchard Technolgies at perfect. It roared from day one in our boat. I am just now thinking about sinking some money into it at 240 hours. Interesting thing most of the Cig boys are running juiced blue motors, including Phil himself.
So any way, my Merc experience has been pretty good. And I'll stick with them...
Okay, I'm done.

Is that Zul in Phil's 20 foot cig a worked over blue motor?

It did strongly resemble a blue motor to me. I think he called it a 700

roadtrip se
01-17-2009, 02:04 PM
The Pansy Clique, and Offshoot of the Sandbagger's International Clique.
Thanks Griz, the abuse means you still love me.

HH, correct. Blue Motor worked over by Zul. Who really knows what it really has.

bootdaddy
01-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Yeah...I have been considering this question for a Cig 20 that I am redoing with a friend who has a 29 Fountain with a 525 and has had 0 problems or issues.

Naturally, he is pushing for the merc, but after pricing everything out it seems a better option to custom build a 540 650hp motor. Of course, if a qualified engine builder was a guess it would not even be an option...

In a boat the size of a cig 20 the blue motor is a very tight fit with a raised or altered engine hatch a given...

So it looks like the custom built motor will be a go and only time will tell...

mjw930
01-17-2009, 05:18 PM
You need to remember the major reason Mercury can claim to be #1 in racing is because they have interjected themselves into the APBA and SBI as "spec" motors. When you eliminate the competition it becomes easy to be #1.

Back in the APBA Factory class days when the HP500 was the spec motor I can't begin to tell you how much money a team had to allocate to keep their motors competitive. Since Innovation had the lock on motor rebuilds it was a cash cow for Merc and Innovation. One F2 team I worked with had 5 motors with 2 always at Innovation for a "freshening" It was a rare occasion when a motor came back and dyno'd over 470 hp. In one season we had to rework 3 motors then send them back to Innovation to be resealed.

You can't compare a used HP525 to a new motor regardless of how many hours are on it, you have to compare what Mercury gets for a new motor with what a professional builder charges. You also can't compare the longevity of a 525HP 502 with a custom 600+ HP motor from a custom builder, it's simply not a fair comparison.

Think about it, a HP525EFI package with a B1XR is roughly $42,000. Remove the drive portion and I think the motor only price is somewhere around $28,000. You tell me how much motor you can buy for $28,000 from one of a number of reputable engine builders with EFI and CMI exhaust. I think you'll end up with a lot of cash in your wallet vs. buying the new Merc motor.

Now, if you can get a fresh HP525EFI for less than $12K then that's a deal and I would jump on it too. The EFI and exhaust is worth $6K.

BUIZILLA
01-17-2009, 05:23 PM
word..

actually, Word Perfect

bootdaddy
01-17-2009, 05:50 PM
That is word - and eloquently put mjw.
We came out at $28k on the blue and had a quote from a very well known builder for $23 on the 540 650HP. We figure he has about $4-5K markup in it...so we will build with my buddy's very skilled mechanic and should come out somewhere around $18k for top of the line stuff...

BigGrizzly
01-17-2009, 06:08 PM
MJW930, Thank you. They think I am picking on merc, I am not even if they did cost my company $500, 000 in legal and research fees not count the production and design slow down because they included in with Yamaha in a product dumping suit. BTW they lost. They have such such a strangle hold on APBA. They bitched many years ago when we wanted to enter a Honda in the Parker 24 hour. The rest is too long to bore you with.. The last time I heard that drive package was about $52,000. But you are correct. You would be surprised what I can sell you for 25 to 30 G;s. Just in case anybody cares a GM crate motor is as durable. In fact my engine started out that way before I got it second hand. I don't run mine hard because I run around with Road Trip clique, what do you expect from a Bowrider.:wink:

roadtrip se
01-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Back in the APBA Factory class days when the HP500 was the spec motor I can't begin to tell you how much money a team had to allocate to keep their motors competitive. Since Innovation had the lock on motor rebuilds it was a cash cow for Merc and Innovation. One F2 team I worked with had 5 motors with 2 always at Innovation for a "freshening" It was a rare occasion when a motor came back and dyno'd over 470 hp. In one season we had to rework 3 motors then send them back to Innovation to be resealed.

You can't compare a used HP525 to a new motor regardless of how many hours are on it, you have to compare what Mercury gets for a new motor with what a professional builder charges. You also can't compare the longevity of a 525HP 502 with a custom 600+ HP motor from a custom builder, it's simply not a fair comparison.

Think about it, a HP525EFI package with a B1XR is roughly $42,000. Remove the drive portion and I think the motor only price is somewhere around $28,000. You tell me how much motor you can buy for $28,000 from one of a number of reputable engine builders with EFI and CMI exhaust. I think you'll end up with a lot of cash in your wallet vs. buying the new Merc motor.
Now, if you can get a fresh HP525EFI for less than $12K then that's a deal and I would jump on it too. The EFI and exhaust is worth $6K.


Okay, okay, I admit it. I have connections to offshore racing, too. So yes, I do have to call BS on this, but it has been a while since I mixed up with MJW, so what the hell. Just as an FYI, I am friends with the former APBA chief referee and the current one for OSS. I also have spent some time in the pits crewing, prep work, and other things during the factory class days.

Your first point. Right on, not going to dispute it. For some, it was the reality. What I found interesting in my experience is that the problems always seemed to happen to the same guys. Hmmm. Some of the crews I saw got by with regular maintenance for complete seasons. Now, if you want to talk about Bravos, that was a different game.

Your second point. You are comparing apples and oranges. A reputable builder utilizing all of the same parts can probably beat Mercury $$$ for HP. So what, everybody has to make that choice. And many of the custom guys are just now catching up on modern choices like EFI and other engine management features that have been offers from Merc for years.

Your third point about 525 pricing. New 525s can be bought in the low 20's. Takeouts for a lot less. I guess it just depends whether you want to be married to your engine builder or just worry about going boating.

BigGrizzly
01-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Relevant story, A guy comes into the shop and wants Garry to build a 500hp for a boat. He then tells the guy, it is easier an cheaper to buy a low hour take out, besides we don't normally make one that small.:nilly:. For him a cam is a cam and piston is a piston. the combination is the key. As for EFI Garry has all the equipment to reprogram all the EFI stuff, even the Merc, The truth is they haven't had the computer lock that people say they have had for some time. Black market versions have been around for years. It is called federal government intervention. My personal opinion is the merc EFI isn't that smart to begin with. I am told the next motor I do will be EFI. Something about changing pulleys and pushing a button.:nilly: The fact that tuning the EFI is easier then my unit. As everyone who has seen or ridden in my boat thing it runs and idles amazingly well. The truth is it actually a little over 4 hours on the dyno, with some very smart people. The only non com in the room was ME. Most are not as lucky as I have been. Before everyone jumps in they only do local stuff and will not do anything they haven't built the engine for. The theory is that nothing is how it seems on paper. Keep stirring lunch is almost ready.

mjw930
01-18-2009, 06:46 PM
I know there were teams that didn't do a lot with the motors, they weren't usually the ones on the podium. Regardless, I agree the packaging is nice and as a takeout there are some real bargains out there, if for nothing other than than the EFI, exhaust and a solid foundation.

My builder has all the gear to reprogram the current EFI's. Like Randy says, it's not as locked up as many like to think. For the life of me I can't remember the system he uses on his UIM Class 1 motors but he's adapted that to big power poker run motors and has some neat tricks he can do with pulleys, fuel, etc based on the event. It does help a lot to keep the 1000+HP motors alive through a full season of poker runs.

For me even at mid $20's an HP525 isn't in my future. A ZZ502 crate motor assembled by my builder with his custom head and cam tweaks is a solid 600HP motor that has a history of going well over 500 hours with nothing more than oil changes. Fully dressed (all accessories, ignition, CMI or KEPP exhaust, bell housing and coupler) the motor comes in around $18K so it's kind of a no brainer. OTOH, if I get to the point where I'm looking to build my 454 and I stumble on a $10K HP525 takeout then I have some soul searching to do.....

To be honest, I don't know if I'm comfortable putting 500+ HP into my '87 hull without some serious re-engineering. The '87 is a bit of a flexible flier IMHO, no lateral braces in the bilge, no firewall bulkhead and only a partially cored transom. I've got to factor in glass work if I look to build something that runs much past 70.

Air 22
01-18-2009, 08:14 PM
To be honest, I don't know if I'm comfortable putting 500+ HP into my '87 hull without some serious re-engineering. The '87 is a bit of a flexible flier IMHO, no lateral braces in the bilge, no firewall bulkhead and only a partially cored transom. I've got to factor in glass work if I look to build something that runs much past 70.


Very wise....:wink: My entire Transom area and Stringers are being replaced as we speak B4 the HP500EFI goes in...A not so fun task:garfield::mad:... but it had to be done.

BigGrizzly
01-19-2009, 08:28 AM
Just remember how the B1 is attached to the transom plate to the bell housing which is bolted to it then engine is then bolted down, everything works together. 930 I have been hesitant on posting the Merc. EFI reprogramming thing for feer of getting into a heated discussion on the subject. Like with engine builders some do it and some don't it correctly. What is on the horizon is ECUs that can be made smart and bolt directly to Merc systems and can be self mapped-TO a POINT. It seams that the car guys are keeping up which means there is a new generation of technicians evolving. Granted some new guys can't build an engine but can do a bang up job on the computer end of it. Again it has come as a part of racing necessity. Even the drift guy are getting very involved around here. BTW there is more to Drifting than meets the eye.

Pismo
01-19-2009, 05:20 PM
If merc stands still too long they will end up like the American car industry. Losing huge market share and wondering what happened. Merc today is a lot like the American car industry in the 50s, 60s, 70s. Ripe for picking apart.

They should upgrade the small blocks first. Get into those 400+ inch small blocks.

BigGrizzly
01-19-2009, 07:33 PM
Pismo, it is already happening factories laying stagnent lay off of 1,500 employees. I was talking with some sales guys about this very subject. At this point they are in a world of hurt.

Boatless
01-19-2009, 08:18 PM
One of the reasons that everyone thinks the MEFI5 is crack proof is that even at the races there is no way possible to check a ECU without sending it back to Fon Du lac. Merc tells everyone it is that secure.

So those that know, know and they exploit this at the races. It is not hard to tell an engine has an modified ECU when the boat goes by with a lot more rpm than the other boats in its class.

There is supposed to be an individual in Atlanta GA that tunes the EFI's for Whipple, Teague and others. Modifies MEFI 4 & 5's. To bad D’Anniballe does not use him.

BigGrizzly
01-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Actually there are two in Atlanta and they work together. One worked at Merc doing the ECUs for them, then quit. He then worked for Joe Gibbs racing but spent all his free time here(he lives here). He got tired of the 24/7 racing routine and cane home to stay. There was a Formula that raced out of a dealer here that had to get his ECM specked, when I first met Don. BTW that Formula''s ECM was not modified, just specked. Merc said a lot that was not true.

Boatless
01-20-2009, 03:38 PM
Actually there are two in Atlanta and they work together. One worked at Merc doing the ECUs for them, then quit. He then worked for Joe Gibbs racing but spent all his free time here(he lives here). He got tired of the 24/7 racing routine and cane home to stay. There was a Formula that raced out of a dealer here that had to get his ECM specked, when I first met Don. BTW that Formula''s ECM was not modified, just specked. Merc said a lot that was not true.

Back when the Formula's were racing in F2, they would, at the factory, send the brand new HP500's to Teague who would tear them down and bore them out to a 509 an put them back together as under the rules the teams were allowed to rebuild an engine an bore if needed. Formula said they made some 560 hp in this fashion.

Dick Simon Marine and Treadwell would purchase 100 Merc ECU's and run the probability statistics of 5% variance and get a set of ECU's that would run to 5500-5600 instead of the 5300.

Totally legal as they were stock ECU's from Mercury. I don't know if they passed the OHM test but they were not tampered with. DSM stated the extra rpm was worth 30 hp??

BigGrizzly
01-20-2009, 06:33 PM
Boatless, absolutely correct to a point Teague was not the only one who did that. there were a lot done her including the ECUs. There is some knowledge that is not so public. Like that merc Bypass valve. I helped make some of them for Merc untill they stiffed us. They are such wonderful people the Merc guys.

Boatless
01-20-2009, 06:47 PM
Boatless, absolutely correct to a point Teague was not the only one who did that. there were a lot done her including the ECUs. There is some knowledge that is not so public. Like that merc Bypass valve. I helped make some of them for Merc untill they stiffed us. They are such wonderful people the Merc guys.

True but Teague had the factory deal with Formula in those times. Others did the same thing on their own.

What was that Fromula dealer in GA? that rolled their 382? For some reason that boat would run 92 they said.

BigGrizzly
01-20-2009, 07:14 PM
The same dealer I got my Criterion, Tal marine. just remember how that happened . as for the speed, It was faster then my boat. I know a whole lot more about that engine then it seems. According to the rules it was dead legal. Btw what does rolling the boat have to do with it, A lot of boats have had accidents including Donzi. If you know so much about the boat WHY are you asking? Also more trivia the owner of Tal MArine name was Louise, she had strawberry blond hair, was about 5'7" tall weighed about 115 pounds and was unmarried. Her service manager did not have a clue what was in the motor and it was kept that way. I can't remember his name.

Donziweasel
01-20-2009, 08:21 PM
Pretty cool how sneaky those racng teams can get. Very entertaining info.:)

So, quick question, why would GM develop all these small blocks for marine use? What is the incentive, if not to go at it with Merc? I mean, they have you covered in the SB area from 300 hp to 540hp with about 4 more in between.

Boatless
01-20-2009, 10:42 PM
Relax, you blow your coolnes with your attitude.

The boat that rolled was the fastest one they all said, just making certain it was the same boat/team.

Pat or something was the guy that ran boat. Everything the Formula teams did was based upon what Treadwell did from the water pickups to the engine hatch and rocker arms. Oh, and the engine seals that were b.s. and the trick of pulling the head and intakes at the same time so as to not break the seals.

gero1
01-21-2009, 06:25 AM
hel with the boat, it's 10 here. tell me about Blondie!!!!!

Air 22
01-21-2009, 07:56 AM
Can the HP500EFI's ECU be re-programmed? If so.. to what extent are the possible results? Who can do this re-programming and costs?...:pimp:

handfulz28
01-21-2009, 09:49 AM
why would GM develop all these small blocks for marine use?

Like I said before, GM doesn't develop them for marine use. They "offer" them to the marine OEM builders and aftermarket companies that want to try and use them. You can't just call up your favorite GMPP supplier, give him a part number for the "MARINE" engine, and expect it to show up as a bolt-in bobtail piece.

I'd like a GM supplier to share part numbers for the "marine" LSA-SC and the "offroad" LSA-SC. I suspect it's the same part number. If it's not, then exactly how do they differ? And how about the marine accessory kit? What all is included in that package?


GM-designed accessory drive components will be
available in kit form (includes supercharger drive
parts)

BigGrizzly
01-21-2009, 10:05 AM
Boatless, I beleive Pat was the Tal Marine service manager They kept in the dark, because of his mouth and the driver I think was Gary. Gary Vaughn did most of the set up until he got his own Phantom and then quit totally after the Cape Cod race-bused and cracked ribs. The only thing I do remember is after a race the driver came into Garry Grimes shop, after winning, one day and spent about 30 minutes, bragging about his team and people who helped. He NEVER once said that he had anything to do with the win, THAT is a sign off a true champion. I once heard a story that something broke and he apologized to his team for abusing the boat.
Air, A lot of people can re-program the ECU of that engine. It really has not been the magic black box as had been said. The question is why do you want to.?

BigGrizzly
01-21-2009, 10:16 AM
DW I will add to Handfull's statement. It is because they have it already and will sell anything the make. As for the part numbers, They are out there but many times the part does not really exist. Many companies do this. They have a kit part number which is the some of all parts to make the unit, it saves space for ordering, plus parts don't get left out. GM is not going to stock a limited outlet part for a declining market. They over produce as it is.

smokediver
01-21-2009, 11:11 AM
Can the HP500EFI's ECU be re-programmed? If so.. to what extent are the possible results? Who can do this re-programming and costs?...:pimp:
I think they can re-mapp it for higher octane and raise the limiter up a bit . I also think whipple can do this ... I think for around 400 bucks or so .. Not sure of the horsepower gain .. they say anywhere from 10-40 hp ...

Boatless
01-27-2009, 01:21 AM
http://www.gm.com/experience/technology/gmpowertrain/engines/specialized/marine/2008_6000_LS2_Marine.pdf?exist=false

ACrooks69
05-15-2009, 12:30 PM
I've "heard" Mercruiser is/has designed a replacement motor for there HP program. I am unsure of the displacement, but it is a dual overhead cam 4 valve motor. I believe I heard somewhere aroun 1200hp with a blower in testing. From what I understand, the relationship between GM and Merc is fizzling on the HP side and Merc is just going to do it them selves. The fact that mercruiser was cast into the head and block (aluminium) tell me it was a Merc designed motor. I suppose this was six months ago. It will be interesting if it ever makes it out.

Pismo
05-16-2009, 02:30 PM
Merc built their own 470/485/488 back in the 80s. Cool motors 224ci. Huge 4.36" bore, larger than a new 496. I am surprised they did not do more given all that casting/manufacturing technology they have for the outboards..

ACrooks69
05-16-2009, 06:58 PM
Pismo, I think you are half correct on the 470/485/488 (somebody step in and correct me if I'm wrong). Mercruiser designed the block, but the head was a Ford 460 head. The motor I "Heard" about appears to be completely Mercruiser, I bet the aftermarket is going to charge a left n*t for any performance upgrades to it as well.

Pismo
05-17-2009, 07:01 AM
Pismo, I think you are half correct on the 470/485/488 (somebody step in and correct me if I'm wrong). Mercruiser designed the block, but the head was a Ford 460 head. The motor I "Heard" about appears to be completely Mercruiser, I bet the aftermarket is going to charge a left n*t for any performance upgrades to it as well.

It was an aluminum block cast by Merc. Don't know about the head. It was a cool motor, good torque and power out of a 4 cyl. Did not last long tho. Closed cooling standard.

BigGrizzly
05-19-2009, 09:17 AM
Here comes a debate, Actually the block was used an designed in car racing using ford 460 parts. it then was used in the boat with a closed cooling system built into the exhaust manifold. the alternator was on the harmonic balancer with a water cooled regulator. The engine had gobs of torque. there was also a 120 verson that was weak. My dream was building a 16 with one of the 470's or bigger. The fuel economy was outstanding. When Merc discontinued it they were bombarded with complaints. That engine was called Mr. Dependability in both car racing and boating. Its only issue was Exhaust manifold rot and alternators going south. Alt was easily remedied using a belt drive one.

Pismo
05-19-2009, 10:09 AM
Here comes a debate, Actually the block was used an designed in car racing using ford 460 parts. it then was used in the boat with a closed cooling system built into the exhaust manifold. the alternator was on the harmonic balancer with a water cooled regulator. The engine had gobs of torque. there was also a 120 verson that was weak. My dream was building a 16 with one of the 470's or bigger. The fuel economy was outstanding. When Merc discontinued it they were bombarded with complaints. That engine was called Mr. Dependability in both car racing and boating. Its only issue was Exhaust manifold rot and alternators going south. Alt was easily remedied using a belt drive one.

Did merc use the Ford design and cast the blocks themselves or did ford make them? I always heard the alternators were trouble. Awesome 4.36" bore, so cool. 2bbl in the 470. The 4 bbl brought it up to 485/488 i believe. That seemed like the best version.

BigGrizzly
05-19-2009, 10:39 AM
There is a large discussion on that subject. Apparently both had the tooling. howerver Ford was backing off and merc was on contract to them. The deal was they supplied merc with cams,cranks, pistons and heads etc. to them and merc supplied the blocks to Ford. The alternator problem was regulator caused. The later version in 1988, worked very well. the big issue was that the regulator cost more then the alternator and belt kit, which was offered in two versions the one wire and three wire versions. My boat Dynasty had the water cooled regulator. I bough the kit just in case, and never used it I sold it about two years ago and wish I had not. as for which was better, I think the 488 was the most powerful but I preferred the 485, seemed to have more bottom end grunt. I had friends with two Regals one with each and top speed was soooo close it did not matter, but the 485 pulled up skiers easier. The 470 in my 19 Dynasty had by far better fuel economy. and was a 50 mph boat consistently. The Criterion came into my life and it had to go. wife said 2 boats max!!!!