Arneson on a 25-30 foot single engine?

[The Hedgehog]

Tex and I have been pondering this for years. Keith is now considering it.

No body has really posed "Would it really work" question on this site. I could see it working on a step hull that rides flat. I actually considered it as an idea on the 26ZX but was concerned that it would not have enough bow lift. Although the 26 rides pretty flat, it will take some trim and likes to carry the bow high and proud at 80+.

I am not too worried about the backing into a slip issue as mine with a 32" prop, full hydraulic steering and 850+ hp engine is already no treat around the dock.

[SilverBack]

I am not really thinking about doing it any time soon. I think that it would work fine though. I think that there are other ways to get the attitude of your boat to run the way you want it rather than just the same old way everyone has always done. I really don't see why it wouldn't work! I think that it may take some time to dial in and it may not be the most fun thing to deal with this spring but if you do it .....Eddie Young is very capable and I am sure that he can handle the dial in and if Tex does it ...well...Mark Boos says that he is very smart and is very thorough and does very good work!!! I am sure that you guys could pull it off. Tex is going to have to do something with his drive if he puts the monster in the ZX anyway!!

If you guys go for it .... good luck and I am sure that you will end up with a very nice ride!!


I am not sure that everyone will think the same way that I do about this.....so be prepared!!!

[The Hedgehog]

I am not really thinking about doing it any time soon. I think that it would work fine though. I think that there are other ways to get the attitude of your boat to run the way you want it rather than just the same old way everyone has always done. I really don't see why it wouldn't work! I think that it may take some time to dial in and it may not be the most fun thing to deal with this spring but if you do it .....Eddie Young is very capable and I am sure that he can handle the dial in and if Tex does it ...well...Mark Boos says that he is very smart and is very thorough and does very good work!!! I am sure that you guys could pull it off. Tex is going to have to do something with his drive if he puts the monster in the ZX anyway!!

If you guys go for it .... good luck and I am sure that you will end up with a very nice ride!!


I am not sure that everyone will think the same way that I do about this.....so be prepared!!!

Tex is considering it. He needs a good unit like that to handle his HP. We are not the only one that see merit. Jamie kicked it around a few years ago. I don't know where he ended up.

I liked the idea for my 26 but that thing was a big enough experiment at the time.

Eric with the Hustler loves his. The boat accelerates like a drag boat and he does not have to worry about smashing Bravos

[Last Real Texan]

Considering it and doing lots of Homework and research before embarking on this endeavor:crossfing:. Really want to be able to have a drive live with out worry when I want to hammer on it. My HP goals for my motor are hampered by the drive and drive alone If the drive could survive 1200, that is what I will finish the build as. I think that the fact that step hulls like to run flat and on the pad the Arneson is the perfect drive for it. I was told by the the man who helped design the intial step hull 27 that 2 Degrees is the desired optimum running attitude to this hull. I would think the Arneson could get that angle of attack with out to much tinkering.
Now time to go and dig up some more info.....

Tex

[Lenny]

I was told by the the man who helped design the intial step hull 27 that 2 Degrees is the desired optimum running attitude to this hull.
Tex

Seriously, ??? 2 degrees ???

I would think 5-7 but what do I know... :bonk:

If that holds true, 2 degrees and the Arny should be easy. Rocker plates at worst. Are you thinking the Bravo kit or jam a tranny inside the hull? I remember a certain fella in New York last summer that had an Arny on his 22 but that boat ran WET. Still tinkering with it...

[The Hedgehog]

Seriously, ??? 2 degrees ???

I would think 5-7 but what do I know... :bonk:

If that holds true, 2 degrees and the Arny should be easy. Rocker plates at worst. Are you thinking the Bravo kit or jam a tranny inside the hull? I remember a certain fella in New York last summer that had an Arny on his 22 but that boat ran WET. Still tinkering with it...

These are step hulls so 2 may be ok.

I would think that jamming a tranny in would through the CG too far forward so I would think it would need the box. I was looking at the box vs the old style and the box seems to make the drive point down at the surface more. I dunno if that is true but makes me go Hmmm.

[SilverBack]

I think that the box is the way to go! I think that you guys both have step hulls and almost everybody else on this website does not so ...people talk about what they know ...

I am not sure how much help you will get on this on this site!! I think that a ZX with a step hull is much more in line with what you need than most other boats on this site! HH you are right..Keep the center of gravity as far back as you can. You might even want to think about moving the fuel tank aft. Batteries! Anything that weighs something and you can move it rear..move it! Rick at Arneson will be the first to tell you that!

[RedDog]

Is a Kamma drive similar to an Arneson? If close, talk to Cuda about his old Formula

[onesubdrvr]

Is a Kamma drive similar to an Arneson? If close, talk to Cuda about his old Formula
Very similar,.... but Cuda's Formula had twins,.... damn beautiful boat too!!

Wayne

[The Hedgehog]

We are trying to figure out singles. We have seen it done on twins enough to be a believer. Need info on singles.

[BigGrizzly]

That may be a nice project. Just remember that, we had a 1200 plus That twisted the shaft on a number 6 drive. the arnie has a shaft does it not. then there is the trany that has to be up to the task. There will never be a free lunch.

[The Hedgehog]

That may be a nice project. Just remember that, we had a 1200 plus That twisted the shaft on a number 6 drive. the arnie has a shaft does it not. then there is the trany that has to be up to the task. There will never be a free lunch.

You are so right.

Its been done with a #6 and a NTX on those size boats. I think that an Arneson would be a better solution.

I am not getting ready to take the plunge but this is a concept that Brian and I have talked about for years. He just might be the one to pull it off. He will have the need for something like that this year.

[BigGrizzly]

Here is the real problem. This arnie thing comes up all the time. Geeo is the only guy who put out the effort time and money. not to talk about pain and failure along the way. Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std equipment? Formula used Kama drives but thats long gone. Most of the advocates, with only a few exceptions, are Desk top engineers. The boats I see them on are fast, but with the HP these guys are running it would embarrassing not to be fast. Maybe if Jamesbond ever gets his GT21 finished we may have 3 on the board.

[Madcow]

I am by no means any kindof evpert at anytghing. But it seems to me an Arneson is a true "survace" drive that optimizes the surface air. What happens when you also introduce the air from the steps?

[zelatore]

Here is the real problem. This arnie thing comes up all the time. Geeo is the only guy who put out the effort time and money. not to talk about pain and failure along the way. Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std equipment? Formula used Kama drives but thats long gone. Most of the advocates, with only a few exceptions, are Desk top engineers. The boats I see them on are fast, but with the HP these guys are running it would embarrassing not to be fast. Maybe if Jamesbond ever gets his GT21 finished we may have 3 on the board.

Didn't arnie sell the rights to twindisc or ZF?

And it's not exactly pertinant here but a number of the big euro luxo-sport boats (think Pershing and the like) run surface drives as OEM options.

[Boatless]

Here is the real problem. This arnie thing comes up all the time. Geeo is the only guy who put out the effort time and money. not to talk about pain and failure along the way. Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std equipment? Formula used Kama drives but thats long gone. Most of the advocates, with only a few exceptions, are Desk top engineers. The boats I see them on are fast, but with the HP these guys are running it would embarrassing not to be fast. Maybe if Jamesbond ever gets his GT21 finished we may have 3 on the board.

Factory installs. In this market any boat manufacturer out there would factory package them just to keep the doors open:nilly:.

As for who has, Hustler, Sutphen, Velocity, Skater, Cigarette, MTI, Eliminator, Howard, Python, Liberator, Hallett, Fountain, DONZI!!!!

What were George's failures and why do you feel neccessary to complain for his time when he doesn't?

As I recall, George spent far more time tinkering (polite way to say working on) his engine and fuel tank than anything else.

I especially like your analogy on breaking an Mercury #6 and projecting its failure to an Arneson.:bonk:

Please come up with a valid example of something.

[Lenny]

Boatless, the only THING that made Georges boat run was his horizontal wing on the ASD6 skeg... Ask him ...

[mattyboy]

were the drives used on the OSG Donzi 38 surface drives??? the funky ones with the rudder in the back ?? i know it is a twin but it is a stepped hull and from what I know that boat ran pretty well

[BigGrizzly]

Well Boatless, READ my post. Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std. equipment? If you remember the handling issues BEFORE the fin? There were also engine issues, mounting issues and remember the prop issues, Oh and your favorite the Hook. As for Python, the late Jim Clark got his high performance engines from us. There was NEVER a successful arnie from them! The one single he made, now has an Alpha on it. Eliminator's preference is Imco, so the dealer says. Every boat manufacturer will build to suit (even if they think the buyer is crazy ), it is called SALES. Like I said The HIGH horse power boats. Every time a arnie post comes up you bring up Geoo. Why don't you bring up Kenny's boat? Just so every one on the board knows, Geoo's rocket block was pushing above 1,000 HP the last time we discussed it. If it was that easy why did he take over 6 years to do it and George is smart and not afraid to ask questions and do research. If I remember correctly, Geoo was more help to them then they were to George. I don't think I have the perseverance to accomplish what he did. MY POINT in my post again, Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std equipment?. If they are so great why aren't their more out there.:shocking: AT every poker run and boat show I have been to, arnie doesn't represent 1% of the attendees. As how really good they are, I am going to wait until Chris gets his done, He is bias but honest and good at what he does. A quote from my Grand Dad. "Theory is good BUT honest testing is TRUTH."

[mattyboy]

I do not believe those were factory. Originally it was a Bravo breaker,errr, boat...


i didn't think they were factory but i did think they were surface drives not arney but still a surface drive

[BigGrizzly]

Madcow, the step is to induce air and break running surface tension. Some boats actually had holes in the back of the step to do this.

[mattyboy]

the other thing that i saw on the big sport cruisers using arney's is the ventilation tubes ( i call them rocket launchers) on the drives to ventilate the props seems the surface drives don't like alot of water when they want to get on plane

[HallJ]

Well Boatless, READ my post. Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std. equipment? If you remember the handling issues BEFORE the fin? There were also engine issues, mounting issues and remember the prop issues, Oh and your favorite the Hook. As for Python, the late Jim Clark got his high performance engines from us. There was NEVER a successful arnie from them! The one single he made, now has an Alpha on it. Eliminator's preference is Imco, so the dealer says. Every boat manufacturer will build to suit (even if they think the buyer is crazy ), it is called SALES. Like I said The HIGH horse power boats. Every time a arnie post comes up you bring up Geoo. Why don't you bring up Kenny's boat? Just so every one on the board knows, Geoo's rocket block was pushing above 1,000 HP the last time we discussed it. If it was that easy why did he take over 6 years to do it and George is smart and not afraid to ask questions and do research. If I remember correctly, Geoo was more help to them then they were to George. I don't think I have the perseverance to accomplish what he did. MY POINT in my post again, Tell me what boat maker puts them on their boats as std equipment?. If they are so great why aren't their more out there.:shocking: AT every poker run and boat show I have been to, arnie doesn't represent 1% of the attendees. As how really good they are, I am going to wait until Chris gets his done, He is bias but honest and good at what he does. A quote from my Grand Dad. "Theory is good BUT honest testing is TRUTH."

Magnum Marine

Jeff

[Trueser]

The Python mold ended up here in Illinois.

[MOP]

I did months of poking around on the Arneson, I had bought one and still have it but was talked out of using it. My main thought for big power would be to go with a V drive transmission instead of the drop box, the drop box will not hold real big power. Also the Arneson box will not accomodate a non drop drive. There are V drive trannies that will hold more power then the drop boxes. And added bene is with a V drive you can keep the engine fully aft aiding weight transfer. The problem some would encounter is hatch clearence at the transom end, I bet Transman could come up with a nice strong Vdrive tranny for someone wanting to pursue the A drive. I have quite q bit of literature that I would be willing to get off to the truely interested via fax.

Phil

[Boatless]

BG, can you read? I listed manufacturers, did I spell their name wrong? Seriously, you have an obvious hard on for the Arneson which comes thru all the time.

Donzi did a 45' Cruiser with the Yanmar and Arnesons about 2 years ago.

The 38' Donzi with the Flexi Drive was de-riggied with a steerable copy of the Arneson made by ZF.

There is another 38’ ZRC entered in P1 this season with the Arneson on it.

Preference is what ever the boat manufacturer can sell. Your reference to the #'s is purely showing lack of boat business knowledge as Mercury makes the boat manufacturers sign an exclusive if the boat manufacturer wants to be part of the Mercury Finance Program.

So that people know what this is, Mercury will give the boat builders 90 days on the product to rig and deliver the boat to the dealer and then get paid and then in turn pay Mercury. If the OEM lives by this agreement, then everything is fine in the Mercury world even late payments. (Say Hello Fountain and now Outerlimits). Mercury has the discretion to, at that time, take over control of the company if the OEM fails to make these payments. In this wonderful current economy a lot of OEM’s are saying “ here Merc, you can have it” and thus Mercury’s current cash flow problem is growing by leaps and bounds. If the OEM owes Mec $$$$$$$$$$$ and the OEM has a customer with a potential sale with Brand Y product, Mercury can pull the credit terms and issue a demand payment effective immediately. How many OEM’s can manage their lunch $ much less run a company profitable (long term) and not be into Mercury in the process. After all it was free $$ Mercury was offering.

No other supplier can offer the attractive financing option that Mercury offers. Mercury obviously has/had a nice reserve of retained earnings and or excellent lines of credit through the markets which I believe are drying up.

So when you reference the % of OEM you must at the same time reference the market towards what restrictive trade practices exist on the external forces in which you are referring to. (Independent Boat Builders Inc. VS. Brunswick and Brunswick lost a 133 million $ judgment) But then again, the same argument can be made for Volvo and OMC at the poker runs. These two companies like Mercury own a rather large % of their customers. What you didn’t know that Brunswick, (AKA Mercury Marine Corp) owns Baylinder and 30 + other boat companies that are just so coincidently Mercury only customers? Same thing with Volvo and OMC, they buy their customers to have a transom to hang the product on.

As for Mr. Desmond’s boat, show me another Donzi that goes that fast with no HP. I expect no less from that kind of power in an 18’ hull. But at the same time show me another one that fast with less power. Mind you Mr. Desmond ran the boat in the 850 hp setting as the belt kept blowing off if he ran it in the higher setting.

Now the kicker to your bias. You are comparing the past with the present. Look at how fast the current boats made today are with the small amount of HP in them vs the older boats you keep citing. The boat that Mr. Desmond has was made in 1974. Hell, that’s 35 yrs old design but you are willing to equate what was what back then to today which is the real sad part.

Now to the real reason that arnsons are not on a large % of small boat manufacturers. Drum roll. Arneson does not offer an engine package nor a propeller program and thus it is less expensive to purchase a Merc package than it is anything else out there as Merc was dumping (BG, look up more restriction of trade laws to understand that term) the product in order to gain market share and use the lucrative parts business as it cash flow model. :boat:

[Boatless]

A: Geo's boat was built in the 70's, in the typical heavy layup fashion of the time. It was re-rigged in the 90's/new millenium. Todays hulls are lighter, with more modern drives and props. HP for HP, one would expect them to run faster, thats a no brainer.
B: The thread is titled "Arneson on a 25-30 foot single engine?" Please limit the discussion to that train of thought.
I inquired earlier: Who amongst the builders YOU listed has built a single engine Arneson boat in the 25-30 foot NON STEP hull range?

That seems to be only one here is BG as he has all the answers.:bighug:

As for your question. If you can get a propeller, (heard they are making a new one with a Bravo propeller type do dad which would be 90% of the battle) the boat is not a turd b/c I've heard one cannot polish one, then the chances are a lot greater for success. A cleaver propeller is difficult on small boats sensitive to stern lift.

I know that Sutphen, Velocity and Hustler used to package the arnesons new out the door, but that was early 80's. (small 26' size boats, not a big big boat) Twins is not what you are asking about nor is cats.

New boats today fall into the issues with Merc that I stated. Therefore it leaves the path to solitary small builders that Merc would not touch.

[BigGrizzly]

Well boatless, I am not going to slap you back. It is obvious you can read but your comprehension has a lot to be desired. STD, means standard equipment.

[The Hedgehog]

A number of good points have been made. I think that Poodles was the best, it gets back to the origin of the post.

[SilverBack]

Correct me if I am wrong HH.....The boat that we are talking about is a 26 or 27 ZX Donzi..with between 900 and 1200 HP (Not Stock) (Not OEM) (NOT GEOO's boat).

Are both of these hulls dual step hulls?

I think that the first thing that needs to be established is does anyone have any real world experience with a mid 20 ft dual step with an Arneson and high horsepower?

If not than no one is an expert and I do not see how anyone knows what will happen and how things will work.

I think that it would be a very cool project but if you are going to do it there will be some dialing in to do. If it does not work perfectly..and it will NOT....the first time. Then that will be part of the project not a failure. If you do it have fun with it. I am sure that you or Tex could and would pull it off and have a one of a kind when you are done!!

[The Hedgehog]

Correct me if I am wrong HH.....The boat that we are talking about is a 26 or 27 ZX Donzi..with between 900 and 1200 HP (Not Stock) (Not OEM) (NOT GEOO's boat).

Are both of these hulls dual step hulls?

I think that the first thing that needs to be established is does anyone have any real world experience with a mid 20 ft dual step with an Arneson and high horsepower?

If not than no one is an expert and I do not see how anyone knows what will happen and how things will work.

I think that it would be a very cool project but if you are going to do it there will be some dialing in to do. If it does not work perfectly..and it will NOT....the first time. Then that will be part of the project not a failure. If you do it have fun with it. I am sure that you or Tex could and would pull it off and have a one of a kind when you are done!!

Yes, those are the types of boats I was asking about

[SilverBack]

Have you looked at the ASD 8-6?? It is good to 1500 ft/# of torque and you can get it with the dual skeg that also gives a little protection for people swimming around the boat. Plus it has a few more options if you do the foil thing on the skeg.

I think that if you go with an Arneson that you can get one that will pretty much be bullet proof on that boat!!

[BigGrizzly]

Keith that is the point in the pictures THEY are twins, not singles. I was asking who, if they were so good, why haven't anybody offered them as, I better spell this out, standard equipment? What the answer I received was a Wikipedia search of possible options on boats. Point is every manufacturer wants their boats to perform well. They would be crazy not to. So why hasn't it been done. We KNOW it does work on certain application. Mainly high HP twin applications where an out drive can NOT handle the power. Since I know the Python story, I kept it out of the discussion at first because it is not a stepped hull. There are also two 24 pythons one with a pad and the other with a sharp bottom. When I was much younger the arnie was the rage. The only other options were limited to Merc racing, and Volvo E drives.Then came the Imco on the market and affordable too. Now Merc has come up with many other alternatives to sell, some good and some not so good. What has now emerged is the fact that they now that other viable options are available that are easy and work without reinventing the wheel. In my personal situation the arnie has too many downfalls, like slow speed marina handling, trimming for adverse situations. Not to mention that my wife drives my boat also. Trust me when I say If I want to go faster I can for much cheaper than an arnie would cost. Since my question has turned this thread into a hijack of the original question, because people don't read. I am out of this thread. I know what I know because I have either experienced it or seen it, not just read about it.

[SilverBack]

OK...what high horsepower single twin step hull have you seen or experienced an Arneson on that did NOT run well?? Please share with us!! Some of us have only read about such things. I however have no knowledge of someone trying one of these drives on a single ZX. That is why I would like to learn from people like you that know all about what happens when you put an Arneson on a 1200 HP ZX. I did not know that it had even been tried. I am way behind on things!!! Do you have some pictures of that setup?

[SilverBack]

:hijack:Let me ask since the single ...twin thing always comes up. Could you fit twin small blocks in a 25 or 26 ZX? I wonder what 2 LSA small blocks with about 600 HP each with Arnesons would do in Hedge Hogs boat?

[The Hedgehog]

:hijack:Let me ask since the single ...twin thing always comes up. Could you fit twin small blocks in a 25 or 26 ZX? I wonder what 2 LSA small blocks with about 600 HP each with Arnesons would do in Hedge Hogs boat?

I like the idea much better in a boat like the one that Fishin Sucks has.

[onesubdrvr]

:hijack:Let me ask since the single ...twin thing always comes up. Could you fit twin small blocks in a 25 or 26 ZX? I wonder what 2 LSA small blocks with about 600 HP each with Arnesons would do in Hedge Hogs boat?

Not sure about the ZX, but they did do the Doral (24') with twin SBC's, so I'm sure it CAN be done,.....

Wayne

[Boatless]

Like this discussion is about, current production boats not a 1970’s early 80’s Python with 70’s-80’s technology. Things have changed on more than just the boat front. Propellers, drive packaging, from what I’ve read on here drive design – rudder – steering - standoff box - engine placement and so on have changed to reflect the issues that BG keep airing.

If this larger rudder exist, then one would logically think it would improve the tracking even in slower speeds such as docking and marina boating.

When someone keeps saying OEM, I firmly believe that SB covered this when he asked where is this/where are those OEM builders that offer a 1200 hp motor as standard?

This has pretty much removed BG’s thoughts. Rather quickly I must say. Be part of the solution not the problem.

How many of the Donzi’s were made with jets?

[Boatless]

Not sure about the ZX, but they did do the Doral (24') with twin SBC's, so I'm sure it CAN be done,.....

Wayne

What about.. Twin V6 engines, but turbo charged like they ran in the Grand National Buick's? I belive they can make some serious power and the are smaller and lighter..

[The Hedgehog]

Tex spent a day doing research on drives. It will be interesting to see what he found:popcorn:

[Last Real Texan]

Tex spent a day doing research on drives. It will be interesting to see what he found:popcorn:
Processing the info as we speek but the only problem is it will require A COMPLETE RE-RIG.....results to follow after digestion..
Tex

[SilverBack]

Well...what did you learn and who did you talk to?

[SilverBack]

I did a little research today too. I talked to some people...I have to find someone that knows how to weld T356 aluminum.

[The Hedgehog]

I did a little research today too. I talked to some people...I have to find someone that knows how to weld T356 aluminum.

Hmmm, do we want to know:pimp:?

[CJmike]

For the mount for his twin outboards.

[The Hedgehog]

For the mount for his twin outboards.

Ahh.

Question: Why stop at two?

[SilverBack]

For the mount for his twin outboards.


Ahh.

Question: Why stop at two?

I am not doing outboards..I don't really like them for what I do ....but the question would be three or four..two would never enter the picture..back to an Arneson on a single 26-30ZX...

[SilverBack]

Does anybody have a Gel Coat for dummies book that I can borrow???

[Boatless]

Does anybody have a Gel Coat for dummies book that I can borrow???

Gelcoat is real easy.

Think of it like Lacquer paint. You can spray it with a siphon gun (diluted no more than 10%) you can use those little portable aerosaol sprayers or roll it on with a roller and sand it down.

The reference to Lacquer is that you have to spray it, sand it down smooth and buff it back up.

Also, you have to use it as a filler to a point so the area has to be a bit low before you apply it.

[rustnrot]

...eggshells...not sure how pertinent this boat is but it has got to be more on-topic than gelcoat.

I have ridden in this 21-22? footer designed by Harry Schoell, has his Pulse Drive surface drive on it and a single standard carb'ed 350 goes about 70 mph.

Some swear by Harry, some swear at him, but this package worked and was marketed by Active Thunder for a very few hulls.

The center console has a 300 hp supercharged, ancestor of the Buick National engine.

[The Hedgehog]

...eggshells...not sure how pertinent this boat is but it has got to be more on-topic than gelcoat.

I have ridden in this 21-22? footer designed by Harry Schoell, has his Pulse Drive surface drive on it and a single standard carb'ed 350 goes about 70 mph.

Some swear by Harry, some swear at him, but this package worked and was marketed by Active Thunder for a very few hulls.

The center console has a 300 hp supercharged, ancestor of the Buick National engine.

Interesting.

That V-6 is way cool though

[The Hedgehog]

Does anybody have a Gel Coat for dummies book that I can borrow???

Alright, I will take the outboard post as a retaliation for my intrusion for your parts for sale thread, but don't make me sick this guy on you! I don't think that you would look cool down in Ms as you pulled up to an intersection with this guy sitting next to you.

[BUIZILLA]

who marinized that 3800?

[BigGrizzly]

BUIZ Garry has a customer with several Grand Nationals acme in and wanted to do an engine for a boat so Garry, did it the easy way, closed cooled it The guy has already had some exhaust made for it already. I never saw the boat. The exhaust still gets pretty hot around the turbo. I don't even if it ever made it into the boat. BTW Harry is not any worse than Alleson, we have delt with both when I was working for Honda Marine.

[rustnrot]

Wasp Marine in New Zealand. http://www.waspaust.co.nz/

Long story, I now own the drive and the engine shown that were in the center console. I added the "automotive" cover to it to bling it up a little. I also took off the piece of crap fuel pump and added a proper PCM module to it.

Here is a video, PS, I think I have posted this here before...

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=3800+marine&emb=0&aq=f#

Photobucket pics...

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/rustnrot/Supercharged%203800%20V6/

[Last Real Texan]

Tex spent a day doing research on drives. It will be interesting to see what he found:popcorn:
here is what I found.....but the re rig is going to suck!
Tex

[BigGrizzly]

SO Tex How are you going to put both the drives in one boat. We are going to have lunch and dinner it is going to be a very long discussion.:wink: You guys even got Gel Coat into this thread.

[The Hedgehog]

SO Tex How are you going to put both the drives in one boat. We are going to have lunch and dinner it is going to be a very long discussion.:wink: You guys even got Gel Coat into this thread.

Splitter!

He told the gecko he could be in one of his films!

[Last Real Texan]

The gecko is going to hurt you if you steal his drives.. :nilly: :nilly:
Where ya gonna hang the rudder??
Nah, Scotty said I could borrow one for a little while for some R&D until the season starts....Still need to figure out the rudder thing.....
Like I said the re rig is going to suck!


Tex

[Last Real Texan]

Splitter!
He told the gecko he could be in one of his films!
Notice the drop box on the drives......So iguess the drop box can handle insane power through it...like the splitter idea now if I can just figure out the rudder thing, I am thinking EXTENDED SWIM PLATFORM HERE...:nilly: and if that does not work there is always a pod drive...

Tex

[The Hedgehog]

Notice the drop box on the drives......So iguess the drop box can handle insane power through it...like the splitter idea now if I can just figure out the rudder thing, I am thinking EXTENDED SWIM PLATFORM HERE...:nilly: and if that does not work there is always a pod drive...
Tex

You may have to turn the engine around and use a V drive configuration. I would put a bullet in the back of each drive to eliminate the low pressure areas.

This will be nice around the dock

[DONZI]

Weismann Duo surface drive prop test vid.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B1XRCmn96w&feature=related

Here is a homemade built splitter set up that runs at 100mph.(pics. attached.)

[The Hedgehog]

Weismann Duo surface drive prop test vid.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B1XRCmn96w&feature=related
Here is a homemade built splitter set up that runs at 100mph.(pics. attached.)

What was the first boat?

[Last Real Texan]

Weismann Duo surface drive prop test vid.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B1XRCmn96w&feature=related
Here is a homemade built splitter set up that runs at 100mph.(pics. attached.)
Looks like a bass boat with some serious enginering going on there....
Tex

[DONZI]

What was the first boat?
The Weismann test boat is a 23 foot Military 315 hp diesel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSE0QFlooJA&feature=related

Here is also a pic. of the new tube Rik has added to the ASD7.
If you notice the larger size so water travels smoother over a standard prop size. A pic of mine & the newer one.

[Last Real Texan]

The Weismann test boat is a 23 foot Military 315 hp diesel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSE0QFlooJA&feature=related
Here is also a pic. of the new tube Rik has added to the ASD7.
If you notice the larger size so water travels smoother over a standard prop size. A pic of mine & the newer one.
finally some useful info....the blu boat in the above picture looks like a minx?

how does it run?

Tex

[DONZI]

finally some useful info....the blu boat in the above picture looks like a minx?
how does it run?
TexNope 22 Classic black.:)
So far there have been three of us on here with the Arneson's running.
Geoo's 18 x w/direct drive.
Jeff Hall's 21 Minx w/ext. box.
Me, Kenny Lessard 22/w/ext.box.
I don't want to sidetrack the post with my Boat as each one of these endeavors are there own R&D projects. I am still R&D ing. But that's the fun of it for me.:wrench:
To answer your question.
I am currently under powered (800 + hrs/454),with a lill hook and financially challenged with kids college tutions. My current speed is less than with the Alpha SS W/ Sternjack. But i will continue to try things.Blueprint hull,Props,future H.P. etc. etc.

Here is my previous thread if it can add any insight for you.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50718&highlight=arneson+series
If you need some real info. for your project. Please call Rik at Arneson. He's a great guy and very innovative.
Another Arneson R&D project ongoing.
http://www.performanceboats.com/html/forums/showthread.php?t=6277&highlight=ARNESON

[The Hedgehog]

Nope 22 Classic black.:)
So far there have been three of us on here with the Arneson's running.
Geoo's 18 x w/direct drive.
Jeff Hall's 21 Minx w/ext. box.
Me, Kenny Lessard 22/w/ext.box.
I don't want to sidetrack the post with my Boat as each one of these endeavors are there own R&D projects. I am still R&D ing. But that's the fun of it for me.:wrench:
To answer your question.
I am currently under powered (800 + hrs/454),with a lill hook and financially challenged with kids college tutions. My current speed is less than with the Alpha SS W/ Sternjack. But i will continue to try things.Blueprint hull,Props,future H.P. etc. etc.
Here is my previous thread if it can add any insight for you.
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50718&highlight=arneson+series
If you need some real info. for your project. Please call Rik at Arneson. He's a great guy and very innovative.
Another Arneson R&D project ongoing.
http://www.performanceboats.com/html/forums/showthread.php?t=6277&highlight=ARNESON

That's some good info. Looks like a challenge. Even though its a 22 I would like to hear more about it.

The guy in the Eliminator seem to have his hands full. My hat's off to him

[HallJ]

Wasp Marine in New Zealand. http://www.waspaust.co.nz/

Long story, I now own the drive and the engine shown that were in the center console. I added the "automotive" cover to it to bling it up a little. I also took off the piece of crap fuel pump and added a proper PCM module to it.

Here is a video, PS, I think I have posted this here before...

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=3800+marine&emb=0&aq=f#

Photobucket pics...

http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/rustnrot/Supercharged%203800%20V6/

Are you running the O2's?

Jeff

[rustnrot]

As in oxygen sensors? It doesn't have any. It is a very (too simple) efi system imho as it does it without a throttle position sensor even.

[BigGrizzly]

Kenny I was waiting for you to enter the ring. Everyone, Having met Kenny and his wife, he truly is having fun with his project. His attitude is if it works good if not we will try something different. He can be my wing man any day. He is good people to be around.

[Lenny]

I can not see how a "notch" at the transom and a V-drive configuration would give you anything.

You have to create a "lever" in order to raise the bow/hull. Tucking it all in close to the back makes things worse and why would you want to get rid of an IMCO and spend a TON of money on engineering and "what if's " is beyond me. The I/O is relatively hydrodynamic, sinks the prop low (ish) and provides positive hull trim. Short of having a ROCKER HULL on a small boat I do not see how this makes any sense monetarily. Adding the horizontal "wing" to the lower skeg of the ARNESON is basically the only way I can see this work.

What " I THINK " would work is a standoff box (ARNESON/BRAVO kit) and an ASD6/7 on a 22' DONZI BLACKHAWK. That, I think, would be something to see. :yes: And I think it would work.

Who knows...

[SilverBack]

I can not see how a "notch" at the transom and a V-drive configuration would give you anything.

You have to create a "lever" in order to raise the bow/hull. Tucking it all in close to the back makes things worse and why would you want to get rid of an IMCO and spend a TON of money on engineering and "what if's " is beyond me. The I/O is relatively hydrodynamic, sinks the prop low (ish) and provides positive hull trim. Short of having a ROCKER HULL on a small boat I do not see how this makes any sense monetarily. Adding the horizontal "wing" to the lower skeg of the ARNESON is basically the only way I can see this work.

What " I THINK " would work is a standoff box (ARNESON/BRAVO kit) and an ASD6/7 on a 22' DONZI BLACKHAWK. That, I think, would be something to see. :yes: And I think it would work.

Who knows...



Lenny....I have not talked to LRT about what he has on his mind and I have not talked to him at all about this project...but....It seems like you are telling him some of the same things that you have told me. I feel like there is a little of a "disconnect" between what we are thinking about and what you see as the logical thing to do. HH, LRT and I are likeminded in some things although I am nowhere in there class and don't claim to be. I am not sure what happened back in the late 60's or early 70's down here in the southern USA but HH, LRT and me all came into being. We all grew up in different environments and all have different jobs and all had different up bringing. However...we all love Donzi's and we all love ZX and ZR boats. I think that every one of us if we told the truth at this point has wished that we had started with a 27 ZR. The ZR does have some problems of its own though. Kevlar for one (hull mods).


The notch....that you can't see and the hull that you can't see...it seems that we...see the idea of these things pretty clear. You told me and have told LRT...that you can't see the notch doing any good. You have also suggested that we try our experimentation in a classic or some other hull. That is not what we are after. That is not what we are trying to do!! The notch...I don't think that I am going to do it but I see the logic behind it.

Let's say that I built you and see saw. The see saw is 15 ft long. I put the pivot 5 ft from your side. We will not have much fun see sawing because it will be next to impossible for the thing to work right. You will not be able to get your side to go down. Now....you could get some friends to get on your side with you and maybe it would go down. Maybe you could jump off a ladder and get it to go down but that would be dangerous and not much fun and a lot of work. Jumping off the ladder would give you much more force to apply to your end of the ladder than just sitting on it. It would make your end of the see saw go down very fast because it would be hard to hit the see saw with just the right amount of force and it would go back up very fast because when you hit the ground you would loose you (force) weight that you had applied to get the thing down to begin with. It would just raise me up very fast and drop me really quick (if it didn't throw me off) You would have to work on jumping from different heights to find the right dynamic force to apply to even make it happen. Either way it would be an out of control situation.

Now... lets just say...this thing sucks...we messed up and 5 feet in is not the right place for the pivot. Let’s move the pivot in to 7 and a half feet. Now...oh boy this is fun Lenny...we are going up and down and everybody is having a great time!!! We are in control and life is great. What changed? It is all about balance grasshopper.....When you achieve static balance....it is very much more in control and you can control who is going up and who is going down with very small inputs. The smaller input of dynamic force the easier it is to control.

I know that this is a whole different thing that we are talking about with the boat but ...... it is the same principle.....Dynamic Center of Gravity...i.e. ...the right prop...the foil on the skeg...rocker...hook...drive depth...drive design...what do these things change as to adjusting the running attitude of the boat and the angle of attack of the hull. Drive spacers give you a longer lever. Props give you downward or upward force as well as thrust. Rocker pulls the rear of the hull down and therefore makes it easier to lift the bow. Hook lifts the stern and pushes the bow down. The see saw thing again. The speed of the water changes the amount of lift or suction that is applied to your hull and at different speeds. They are all variables to the amount and the way your Dynamic Lateral Center of Gravity is affected.

Now what controls the Static Center of Gravity?? Where things are in the boat. There are some of these things that you can change. You can move your batteries as far back as possible. You can move fuel tanks and move any thing that weighs something. The problem.....Most of it is where it is going to be. Donzi put it there and it is not easy to change in most instances. Even Geoo could not get away from this...principle...he had no trans...He wanted to keep the center of gravity back as far as possible. He had rocker plates and hull mods and the right prop and ....oh yes....the foil....It worked....hell it worked better that any Donzi that I have ever seen or heard about. He achieved his perfect balance and ...ZEN!!!!!


The notch...the notch is just an attempt to let some of that BBC hang out the back to counter balance all the weight that was put into the cabin and to move the Static Center of Gravity to the rear of the boat and give you more "natural" bow lift. It gives you cleaner water at the prop but that is not the reason that we are talking about any notch. We need to move the Static Center of Gravity to the rear of the boat.


When your boat has its Static Center of Gravity in the right place for the speed that you are planning on running. It is faster than when you try to change the Center of Gravity Dynamically. Dynamic factors almost always increase drag. They are almost always more unstable and they are harder to have adjusted to have just the right input....i.e. "speed scrubber" trim tabs. Let’s say that your engine puts out so much horse power. It uses some to turn the gears...some to forward thrust and some to thrust either up of down. That is wasted thrust in a way. It may make your boat faster to expend the thrust up or down because it is much more efficient to do that than the drag of a wetted hull. So it is all a trade off. In a perfect world your boat would naturally have the right running attitude naturally with no other inputs needed. You could apply all of your horsepower to forward thrust and the friction it takes to apply that horsepower and that would be it.

We want to achieve that perfect ZX ZEN!! That is what we desire. It can drive you MAD and it can keep you up at night...it can make you daydream and talk about crazy things...ZX ZEN!!!

[obsessed1]

What " I THINK " would work is a standoff box (ARNESON/BRAVO kit) and an ASD6/7 on a 22' DONZI BLACKHAWK. That, I think, would be something to see. :yes: And I think it would work.

There is already one in the works!:yes:

[BigGrizzly]

I do agree with Lenny to a point. Adding that hull design will play a tremendous factor. For instance an arnie works well on a Garvy type hull. in that boat, no matter what you do (to a point) the boat attitude is in the hull not the trim. Just so others know the black hawk hull is different then a normal classic. With the hydrodynamics of the lower units today, the attack of the propeller to the water is one of the most important parts of the total equation. BTW that fin idea came from a product that is already available for lower units. I have one but normally don''t use it. It really settles the boat down in bad situations. George turned me on to it. My picture is on their web site. At this moment I can't put my finger on the web site, but I do take it with me to all the events just in case I need it. My problem disappeared after some minor hull issues and good props.

[SilverBack]

I agree with all of that Grizz..I agree with Lenny too but I just wanted to explain ....that we are not looking for the easy route..we want to make these boats run..that is what makes us happy. I would not argue with you and Lenny on props or hull design...you guys are the experts..I was just trying to explain our point of view the way I see it. LRT and HH may not agree with the way I put it but they both know that there are easier and cheaper ways to go fast on the water. This is like putting a puzzle together for us. One that we are not sure has all the pieces and that may be a disappointment but something that if we can do it is something that no one has done before.


Now..what is the name of the website????

[BigGrizzly]

Point taken. I really did think that is where you were coming from. You see to spite popular belief I am not against arnies, it all the application. Remember as I have stated, " theory is a good thing honest testing is TRUTH". My whole life has been designing, making and fabricating stuff. Both my grandfathers were tool and die makers. My dad was a formidable machinist, as well as a Doctor. We invented and made most of the instruments used in his practice, Many designs have been copied and patented. Dad gave them away to help medicine. In the financial situation I am in today I wish he had not. I was using a mill and lathe when I was 5 years old. In my entire life, I only was without a . You got to love that woman.

[roadtrip se]

And I don't feel like stumbling out in to the snow for a Detroit Free Depressed, so I read this thing for entertainment.

For what it is worth, I do have a nugget that I thought might be relevant as a research point for the arnie. A 26zx with a 500 and driven by a BH.

While I never got to talk to the guy who had the boat, I did get to see him run it quite a bit. I know that the 500 should take this boat into the high 70's. This thing was having a hard time breaking the 60's, when I ran with him and everybody was getting very wet because the boat had zero lift.

So my limited real world experience with a single ZX and a surface drive tells me that bow lift is going to be a significant issue.

[BigGrizzly]

OK Trip, just stir the pot. I will now help with that, The black hawk drive is a dead horse, too expensive to produce and applications very limited. It is not just from me but Merc sales too.

[roadtrip se]

Arnie is surface drive.

BH is a surface drive.

The ZX I saw didn't run worth a crap with a BH.

Pot stirring and maybe a bit relevant? Yep.

[BigGrizzly]

Here we go Pot Stirring with Class and experience. I was thinking about you the last couple of days while I am stripping my engine for a freshening up. Garry thinks I am working on borrowed time. Eight years Over 700 hours and only a starter motor and alternator engine issue on the engine. Maybe a wake up call on this old bowrider.

[SilverBack]

And I don't feel like stumbling out in to the snow for a Detroit Free Depressed, so I read this thing for entertainment.
For what it is worth, I do have a nugget that I thought might be relevant as a research point for the arnie. A 26zx with a 500 and driven by a BH.
While I never got to talk to the guy who had the boat, I did get to see him run it quite a bit. I know that the 500 should take this boat into the high 70's. This thing was having a hard time breaking the 60's, when I ran with him and everybody was getting very wet because the boat had zero lift.
So my limited real world experience with a single ZX and a surface drive tells me that bow lift is going to be a significant issue.



No doubt about it!! Bow Lift!!!!

[SilverBack]

Here we go Pot Stirring with Class and experience. I was thinking about you the last couple of days while I am stripping my engine for a freshening up. Garry thinks I am working on borrowed time. Eight years Over 700 hours and only a starter motor and alternator engine issue on the engine. Maybe a wake up call on this old bowrider.



While you have your engine out.....why not put some real power in that thing???



Oh I forgot.... That drive you run is a relic!!!!!

Now who is pot stirring????

[Lenny]

What " I THINK " would work is a standoff box (ARNESON/BRAVO kit) and an ASD6/7 on a 22' DONZI BLACKHAWK. That, I think, would be something to see. :yes: And I think it would work.

Who knows...





There is already one in the works!:yes:

On a real Blackhawk hull? I would love a pic or two. Can you share ?

[The Hedgehog]

And I don't feel like stumbling out in to the snow for a Detroit Free Depressed, so I read this thing for entertainment.
For what it is worth, I do have a nugget that I thought might be relevant as a research point for the arnie. A 26zx with a 500 and driven by a BH.
While I never got to talk to the guy who had the boat, I did get to see him run it quite a bit. I know that the 500 should take this boat into the high 70's. This thing was having a hard time breaking the 60's, when I ran with him and everybody was getting very wet because the boat had zero lift.
So my limited real world experience with a single ZX and a surface drive tells me that bow lift is going to be a significant issue.

That's good info. I was going to suggest that someone try a BH. If that worked, then great start heading for an Arneson. If it does not, well heck it is easier to go back to a bravo.

[BUIZILLA]

I was going to suggest that someone try a BH. If that worked, then great start heading for an Arneson. If it does not, well heck it is easier to go back to a bravo. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$






I think I got my point across..

[BigGrizzly]

Well Silverback, yes my drive is a relic. It was put on the boat in 1980, has been rebuilt twice and have fixed the trans twice. and Have over 700 hours, closer to 800. I have lead the pack second only to Geoo, for a long time, with a unique boat. AS for real power in that boat, I, unlike most, know the BOAT and MY limitations. There are three people maybe a couple of more know what I am really capable of. Once a few of us were racing/playing in very shallow water. After we stopped one of the other drivers jumped on the dock got down on his knees ( at first I though he was sick and going to puke) and started bowing, he then said to me "you weren't opened up were you, that thing hauls a$$." we have been good friends ever since. BTW I never answered the question. The three of us have had an ultimate respect for each other ever since. Driving rail to rail at a very high speed creates an bond. Can you say right turn NOW. :wink: A relic YES. Fun YES, fear of having someone going faster NO. Like my oldest son said " you have nothing to prove, you have done what you wanted and won more then your share". As for real power, it is as real as it is going to get, I have run out of Depends.:yes:
Lenny your foaming at the mouth again. the excitement is making the post wave

[SilverBack]

Point taken.......if it aint broke don't fix it!!!

[roadtrip se]

Not that I am advocating this, but I am with Hedge.

The costs to actually try one would only be associated with the bribery it would take to get your hands on one to borrow and try one from someone who might have an extra.

If you had to buy one, they are expensive, but it isn't like it wouldn't be easy to re-sell it, if you wanted to.

Ya never know, maybe the guy I saw running one on a ZX just didn't know how to drive his boat or was dragging tabs or had engine issues or who knows what.

Seems like it would be an easy way to see how this hull does react to a surface drive before commiting to the surgery and cash necessary for and Arnie....

Churn, churn, churn..

[Lenny]

Lenny your foaming at the mouth again. the excitement is making the post wave

An Arneson on a true Blackhawk hull is definately and interesting idea especially if one can get the boat to settle back on its' rocker haunches and run without porpoising... :yes: I would love to see pics of what someone here is working on. I know the ASD6 has not provided the speeds anticipated by a few on the standard 22 hull. Not that it won't work, but the boats run wet (so far)

Curious Randy, no foam (yet), just curious.

:)

[BigGrizzly]

Lenny that may never happen because the real problem is the hull has two separate rockers. and is fighting to use both. Woodsey and I talked about this for two hours at Sarasota.

[obsessed1]

On a real Blackhawk hull? I would love a pic or two. Can you share ?


Lenny,

The guy I sold my arneson to is converting over his 'real blackhawk 22" to an asd setup. His boat is a true blackhawk with the rocker in the hull. From what I recall he is doing the extension box with trans also. He already had 1 other arneson before he bought mine. He sent me some pictures of his project but I already deleted them. I will email him to see if he can post them up.

Sorry for the hijack.
Rob

[Lenny]

Rob, thanks for the reply :yes: I would love to see ANY pics of what he has in progress.

I agree with Grizz on his Woodsy discussion cuz that is definately what they do, (hunt between the two hull running surfaces) but, once settled down, (as in trimmed and NO wave action and no one wiping their nose or tipping a 12oz beer) they have a good 5-6 mph over an likewise equipped 22 Classic.

I think the setback from the Bravo Box, or extension box period (12") would trick the hull into thinking the C of G was further back (not in the real sense obviously, but with the prop some 3' back of the transom) to make the boat and favour the last 8' , whereas the Rocker begins and ends at the transom.

Thanx :)

IMO

[Greg Maier]

Lenny,

I'm right in the middle of a Blackhawk to Arneson conversion.

See some pictures here: http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52881&page=2

Most of the details in the post are the same. Engine bed stringers and transom were the consistency of mulch, and even had some rot in the forward stringers. Hull is currently stringerless, I plan to go back in with stringers and glass once the weather turns. Still building the engine in my garage, but not going with Dart heads, I was talked into AFR's CNC heads instead. Transmission is done, BW 72C with 10 carbon fiber clutches. Still need the setback box from Rik. Converted the BW 1721 from chain drive to gear drive, have the upgraded gears from Rik.

Lots to do, let's hope this thing handles OK once I'm done.

[Lenny]

Wild :eek: :eek: :eek: :yes: Thanks Greg. I personally think it will work on this hull :yes: but what do I know :bonk:

I have spent some time in Mike Millers boat here and am all too familiar with what they "like" to do. I feel the ASD and SETBACK will really help !

Great project, very cool !!!

Thread Hijack in progress...

[obsessed1]

Thanks Greg!!!!

[SilverBack]

LRT and HH...I did some more research yesterday. You may want to schedule a trip to the Big Easy next month... February is a good month to go you know...Arnesons top rigger will be there for a month rigging a boat that has it's own trust fund...it is a CAT that will have 4 Sterling engines and 4 Arnesons. 2 staggered on each side!!! How is that for breaking new ground. The boat has been wind tunneled to over 250 and the target speed is over 300 MPH....




On another front ..the foil on the skeg is really anywhere is not sounding too good. One race team spent over $45,000 on props from breaking them during testing. Trying to get it right. The foil works great when it is there but the heavier the boat and the faster the speed the more load the thing has to take and they just don't stick with you. It seems like they target your prop like a heat seeking missile when they break!!


It seems that a lot of the stuff that we think is new and ground breaking innovation has already been tried and researched by people with more conviction and more resources that we could ever ponder having to throw at this!!!

[Greg Maier]

Big Griz,

Can you post some more detail about the Blackhawk having 2 rockers? What would be the reason to design the hull like this?

Thanks

[Lenny]

Gregg. I have straight edged the bottom of a Blackhawk. I did not see "two" rockers, only the front half of the boat at the standard angle of 22 Classic attack and then the one at the back (last 8' ) at another straight angle heading up towards the transom BUT flat.



It seems that a lot of the stuff that we think is new and ground breaking innovation has already been tried and researched by people with more conviction and more resources that we could ever ponder having to throw at this!!!

I think everyone here was already trying to tell you that a thousand times over ;) Good discovery :D

[boxy]

LRT and HH...I did some more research yesterday. You may want to schedule a trip to the Big Easy next month... February is a good month to go you know...Arnesons top rigger will be there for a month rigging a boat that has it's own trust fund...it is a CAT that will have 4 Sterling engines and 4 Arnesons. 2 staggered on each side!!! How is that for breaking new ground. The boat has been wind tunneled to over 250 and the target speed is over 300 MPH....




On another front ..the foil on the skeg is really anywhere is not sounding too good. One race team spent over $45,000 on props from breaking them during testing. Trying to get it right. The foil works great when it is there but the heavier the boat and the faster the speed the more load the thing has to take and they just don't stick with you. It seems like they target your prop like a heat seeking missile when they break!!


It seems that a lot of the stuff that we think is new and ground breaking innovation has already been tried and researched by people with more conviction and more resources that we could ever ponder having to throw at this!!!

Xtreme Xhibit has been running for years with 4 Sterlings staggered through 2 Merc #6's

So what happened to the race team that spent $45000 on props??? Did they break 2 Herrings. $45000 is a lot of money, but it'll barely get you 2 props. I've been at the dock with MyWay when they were testing 2 sets of props, and there was $100000 in props sitting there.

[SilverBack]

Xtreme Xhibit has been running for years with 4 Sterlings staggered through 2 Merc #6's

So what happened to the race team that spent $45000 on props??? Did they break 2 Herrings. $45000 is a lot of money, but it'll barely get you 2 props. I've been at the dock with MyWay when they were testing 2 sets of props, and there was $100000 in props sitting there.


Oh......OK....I did not know that.....so..were they running them staggered with 4 Arnesons..which I think is what this thread is about...not #6's........and......You ask what happened to the race team that broke the props....they bought some more...it would be hard to race without props!!!! Did they have the lead rigger from Arneson there to talk to in person?


The point is that if a team has enough money to spend that much on breaking blades off of props from the foil breaking off the skeg.... They probably tried to do it right to begin with and still had their foils break off. I don't think that those props cost $22,500 each...that is what they would have to cost to only make up 2 for $45,000. Maybe they are more in Canada?? Maybe it is all in the shipping? Who knows??

[boxy]

I had the wrong prop mfg. They were Rolla props.

[Boatless]

Xtreme Xhibit has been running for years with 4 Sterlings staggered through 2 Merc #6's
So what happened to the race team that spent $45000 on props??? Did they break 2 Herrings. $45000 is a lot of money, but it'll barely get you 2 props. I've been at the dock with MyWay when they were testing 2 sets of props, and there was $100000 in props sitting there.

Xtreme Xhibit has four #6's not two.

Bill Tomlinson has the Arneson/BPM drive and he is using the Elstom propellers which do cost a mint. $15K each.

Hering propellers cost $4K each, Mercury is about the same with their CNC propellers and Elstrom, well they are out there with that price but they do claim to warranty them.

[Boatless]

LRT and HH...I did some more research yesterday. You may want to schedule a trip to the Big Easy next month... February is a good month to go you know...Arnesons top rigger will be there for a month rigging a boat that has it's own trust fund...it is a CAT that will have 4 Sterling engines and 4 Arnesons. 2 staggered on each side!!! How is that for breaking new ground. The boat has been wind tunneled to over 250 and the target speed is over 300 MPH....




On another front ..the foil on the skeg is really anywhere is not sounding too good. One race team spent over $45,000 on props from breaking them during testing. Trying to get it right. The foil works great when it is there but the heavier the boat and the faster the speed the more load the thing has to take and they just don't stick with you. It seems like they target your prop like a heat seeking missile when they break!!


It seems that a lot of the stuff that we think is new and ground breaking innovation has already been tried and researched by people with more conviction and more resources that we could ever ponder having to throw at this!!!

Yea, Copeland breaks a lot of things, but then again, they don't exactly run the best propellers they can get, rather they run what they got as they know they are going to break.

They were running a 3 blade from Budwieser, had the things frozen and dipped in Girraffe piss and they still broke.:nilly:

Is that boat out of the mold yet?

[boxy]

Xtreme Xhibit has four #6's not two.
Bill Tomlinson has the Arneson/BPM drive and he is using the Elstom propellers which do cost a mint. $15K each.
Hering propellers cost $4K each, Mercury is about the same with their CNC propellers and Elstrom, well they are out there with that price but they do claim to warranty them.
You're right, it is 4 6's. I'm not sure why i remebered it as 2. We spent the weekend tied up behind him at the 1000 Islands Poker run.
MyWay is running fixed trimmable BPM drives with a rudder bustle.

[Boatless]

Yep, and that is an Elstrom propeller. They Shot Pene the blade thinking it makes it stronger.

[joseph m. hahnl]

I am by no means any kindof evpert at anytghing. But it seems to me an Arneson is a true "survace" drive that optimizes the surface air. What happens when you also introduce the air from the steps?


The OSG 38zr race boats use them:popcorn:


http://www.donzimarine.com/

Click Z home Page, Click Donzi Racing. Click OSG Donzi,Click picture 12.:kingme:

Almost looks like a single . Must be the angle

[boxy]

The OSG 38zr race boats use them:popcorn:


http://www.donzimarine.com/

Click Z home Page, Click Donzi Racing. Click OSG Donzi,Click picture 12.:kingme:

Almost looks like a single . Must be the angle

The old Donzi OSG boat doesn't run Arnesons. They are a surface drive, but they aren't Arnnies.

[The Hedgehog]

Ok, so we are into race boats that cost well over $500k and have props that cost more than my boat. The point of the thread was not can you do it will no expense spared. Heck, I already have an engine/drive combo that costs more than my boat. Not trying to double that.

I think that the 22 Arneson combo is a little closer than that.

We are looking for somewhere in between. I know that the check for getting into this combo will be over 20k but at the levels we are talking about on could rebuild a bunch of bravos.

If those guys are having a hard time not getting a 22 to run wet, I can't imagine a 26-28. Step or non step.

That is the problem with whole X drive. It is supposedly bullet proof but it surfaces, hance no bow lift. That makes it a poor option for one wanting to bridge the gap between Bravo and #6

[Boatless]

The old Donzi OSG boat doesn't run Arnesons. They are a surface drive, but they aren't Arnnies.

OSG had a fixed copy of an Arneson. The new owners took the bussel and rudders off the boat and make them them sterrable.

All the Fountains, new Donzi's and such are stepped bottom and there is no problem with the Arnesons on them.

Saw this one, new 38 ZRC

[The Hedgehog]

OSG had a fixed copy of an Arneson. The new owners took the bussel and rudders off the boat and make them them sterrable.
All the Fountains, new Donzi's and such are stepped bottom and there is no problem with the Arnesons on them.
Saw this one, new 38 ZRC

Once again, they are twins. I don't need convincing that step twins and even a number of regular twin v's will run fine with an Arneson. The big question is has it been done with a big single.

Oh yeah, Fountain has made plenty of non-step boats.

[BigGrizzly]

OKKKK:popcorn:

[boxy]

OSG had a fixed copy of an Arneson. The new owners took the bussel and rudders off the boat and make them them sterrable.
All the Fountains, new Donzi's and such are stepped bottom and there is no problem with the Arnesons on them.
Saw this one, new 38 ZRC
Niiice. Are those ASD 8's with a drop box?

[SilverBack]

The point is..not to talk about race boats or twin or quad Arneson applications but to let HH and LRT that the guy rigging the boat in New Orleans next month is from Arneson and he would know if anyone knows and they know who will have access. Bryan is good friends with the guy that can get you all of the information next month. That was all that I was letting them know.



The other point was if those guys are breaking the skegs with the foil..it must be hard not to break the skeg. I am sure that they would need some help getting the bow up as much as it would need to be.


Boxy..I thought that Hering number 6 props were high at 5k a pop....wow ...I would hate to think about buying those that you are talking about!!

[Boatless]

Niiice. Are those ASD 8's with a drop box?

???? Must be with this power.

[SilverBack]

Tex...I have some news for you!!! How do twin Arnesons sound?? You will not need a 15k splitter either! How does a splitter that will allow you to run two Arnesons in a staggered configuration using top fuel blower belts. It is a great setup! It uses far less power that a gear splitter and weighs far less and uses less power to drive. You can then counter rotate your props and you will be set! You can also go on up to 1400 or more horsepower and not have to worry about drives. Put your transmissions in your boxes and you will be set! I think the maintenance schedule is 300 hours for replacement of the belts. Not bad!!

[Fast Shafts]

Silverback,
I've been following this thread closely because I've condidered an Arneson. Do you have a link or info ($$) for a single engine/twin Arneson tranny/spitter? I've got a 24 Sunsation raceboat and a 27 Magnum hull. I think a single big block of 700 horse and a pair of Arnesons would be cool. I've had it with blowing up drives..:frown:

[SilverBack]

Call Rik at Arneson Industries. He should be able to steer you in the right direction. He is a very nice guy and is very helpful.