Beware of outerlimits

[fasttrucker]

This guy posted that they wont pay the bill for his advertizing ad.Over at the speedwake web site.Interesting read.Says he cant afford the 10,000. dollars because of the current economy.Looks like he might go under.Maybe bush will give him taxpayer bail-out money:mad:

[Carl C]

Yes, interesting read. Someone else there predicts that Donzi will be gone by January '09 in the same thread. I'll dig up the link..........Here it is... http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59151

[chappy]

I'd be curious to hear OL's side of the story........

[Trueser]

Why would you even post something like this?

[VetteLT193]

a buddy of mine works for a supplier of Donzi and they were not great about paying bills when the economy was good... now things are way worse.

I'm a little shocked at OL though because they are so high end I thought the economy wouldn't hurt them

[onesubdrvr]

I've seen Thriller Powerboats, Twin Vee, Maverick, and Sea Ray among others in my work lately, and they are all a roll of the dice from closing.

It is REALLY ugly out there for them.

Maverick when from 28 boats a month to less than 7, that's 75% decrease, Twin Vee had so many orders cancel, that they were able to supply boats for 3 months without building any, now they are only building them to order, using some of the office staff when needed in the production area,

Thriller - well, they only make 1 or 2 boats a year anyways,

Sea Ray, has been known for a while now that the Brunswick group is hurting.

The small guys (L&H, isn't producing boats right now (no orders), but are basically letting their guys do side work in the shop, so that when something pops up, they are ready to go back to work. Saves the salaries they have to pay, and keeps the guys with some income.

I've seen prop shops close up, more "boat repair" places than I can count, distributors / etc. It is UGLY for the marine industry for sure.

I went and looked at a 17' 6" Wahoo today for kicks and grins, and they guy is darned near giving it away, but I think I'll pass for now, there will be even better deals on boats in the near future.

Wayne

[gold-n-rod]

There will be no shortage of boat builders closing shop before this gets turned around. It happened in the early '90s; the company that made my Mach 1 went t!ts up. My boat was sold new at the liquidation sale at 50 cents on the dollar.

Don't know if you guys saw the '09 C16 listed in eBay last week. It was a v6 stripper, on a trailer with a BIN of $19,995. The bids went to $15,500 (IIRC) and wasn't sold. That's a glimpse into what kind of deals are out there right now.

Silly me, I am asking $19K for a 6 year old 16. :shocking:

[BUIZILLA]

one of my best large mixed truck customers sells 75-80 big trucks a month.... this month he'll be lucky to do 8 or 9...

one of the largest Dodge stores down here went from 100 vehicles a month in Dec 2007 to 9 total vehicles last month, he needs 80 to break even..

the local Navistar store usually has 220-240 repair invoices going at any one time, last week there were 9 trucks in the shop :eek:

the local Mack franchise is losing *only* 1.2m a month...

one BMW store is slamming them out the door, 280-320 units a month... go figure..

oh, and my nieces husbands family owns the oldest Chry-Jeep store in TN, in Knoxville area.... delivered 4 cars last month...

me ? I can't buy a job... :confused:

[mattyboy]

did you guys read the thread??? they ran like more than like 5 ads without any payment???? sorry that is just bad business practice especially in this ecomony where cash flow is king

we always have the customers money in our pocket before anything happens

make a deal sign the paper pay us 33% of the agreed price
we deliver the equipment pay us another 33%
we install and cutover equipment pay us the remaining balance if for any reason something is not right that is our fault the customer can hold upto 10% of the last payment until we make it right. if everything is 100% operational and working if we don't get the final payment on cutover I start cutting wires out starting with the Boss then the accounts payable clerk

we will not gladly give you a hamburger today and you can pay us on wednesday

cash flow !!!! wonder if they are paying there resin supplier on time?? when things are tight you have to stretch things out

[Air 22]

I learned today DONZI is down to ONE National Account Sales Manager down from 3....:eek:.....:confused: and the economy isn't getting better anytime soon..:garfield:

[mjw930]

Yep, it's gonna get pretty ugly before it gets better. I talked to a friend a couple weeks ago and my old friends at Velocity have basically closed up shop. No orders since June and no viable dealer network. Steve's been through tough times before but he always found a way to pay his 2 long time lamination people (husband and wife) that have been with him since he was down in Pompano Beach in the '80's but even they are gone.

At their height they built 80 boats / year. On average they did about 50 / year or at least one a week. In 2008 they built 8 boats......

[fasttrucker]

Yes, interesting read. Someone else there predicts that Donzi will be gone by January '09 in the same thread. I'll dig up the link..........Here it is... http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59151
Word on the street,Donzi will be gone."this will be a sad christmas to remember"

[BUIZILLA]

trucker.... you've got a lot of nerve posting something like that, where there is no proof of that... that's just not right..

[Carl C]

Word on the street,Donzi will be gone."this will be a sad christmas to remember"


trucker.... you've got a lot of nerve posting something like that, where there is no proof of that... that's just not right.. I have no idea where this guy's "word on the street" comes from. Maybe I can find out. Personally I do not think we will lose Donzi.

[Trueser]

I agree this whole thread is useless.

[Donziweasel]

First, regardless of whether the guy with the magazine made poor business decisions regarding whether or not to run ads without payment, Outerlimits should pay thier bill.

Second, while there will be casualties in the boating industry due to the economy, I do not think Donzi will be one of them. Donzi is a private company. Donzi has also been counted out before, but has managed to stay. I feel they can raise enough capital to weather the storm. It is known as a quality brand name in the industry. If Donzi goes, then how do companies like Apache, Outerlimits, Adrenaline, Active Thunder, Checkmate, Cigarette, Eliminator, Extreme, Hustler, Nordic, Pantera, Powerquest, Skater, Sonic, Sunsation, Velocity, Warlock, etc....going to make it?

Trucker, I would like to know who said that.

[gold-n-rod]

If Donzi goes, then how do companies like Apache, Outerlimits, Adrenaline, Active Thunder, Checkmate, Cigarette, Eliminator, Extreme, Hustler, Nordic, Pantera, Powerquest, Skater, Sonic, Sunsation, Velocity, Warlock, etc....going to make it?

Powerquest couldn't make it in good times. They are gone.

[VetteLT193]

I have no idea where this guy's "word on the street" comes from. Maybe I can find out. Personally I do not think we will lose Donzi.

As I stated earlier, I have a friend that supplies to Donzi and he's saying the same thing as the "word on the street"...

If you can't pay your bills, you can't get more parts and labor. If you can't get more parts and labor you can't build more boats. It stinks, and they might survive through some sort of buyout because of the name... but the cash is going to have to come from somewhere.

[Carl C]

Trucker, I would like to know who said that. Trucker started this thread. I had also been folowing the thread on Speedwake and posted a link to it on post #2. Click the link and go to page 2, post #35 and someone claims to have reliable word on the street that Donzi is soon to be history. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Lenny]

First, regardless of whether the guy with the magazine made poor business decisions regarding whether or not to run ads without payment, Outerlimits should pay thier bill.

Second, while there will be casualties in the boating industry due to the economy, I do not think Donzi will be one of them. Donzi is a private company. Donzi has also been counted out before, but has managed to stay. I feel they can raise enough capital to weather the storm. It is known as a quality brand name in the industry. If Donzi goes, then how do companies like Apache, Outerlimits, Adrenaline, Active Thunder, Checkmate, Cigarette, Eliminator, Extreme, Hustler, Nordic, Pantera, Powerquest, Skater, Sonic, Sunsation, Velocity, Warlock, etc....going to make it?

Trucker, I would like to know who said that.

John, do you have a program that sorts the brand names alphabetically. ;)

[gold-n-rod]

John, do you have a program that sorts the brand names alphabetically. ;)

If he does, it's busted. :nilly:


Apache, Outerlimits, Adrenaline, Active Thunder

[Donziweasel]

John, do you have a program that sorts the brand names alphabetically.

Maybe:wink:


If he does, it's busted.

Maybe:wink:

Point is that I think that most of these companies, with the exception of Cigarette and Pantera, do not have as stronge a following as Donzi. There are other companies as well.....

[BUIZILLA]

Velocity packed it in...

[Donziweasel]

Just one month earlier-

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/198678-outerlimits-alive-well-2.html

[Lenny]

Just one month earlier-

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/198678-outerlimits-alive-well-2.html

One thing is for sure. They currently have 15 Outerlimits on hand...

http://www.lakecumberlandmarine.com/new_inventory.htm?start=0&certified=&SByear=clear&SBbodystyle=clear&SBmake=Outerlimits&SBtrim=clear&SBprice=clear

[Cuda]

Yep, it's gonna get pretty ugly before it gets better. I talked to a friend a couple weeks ago and my old friends at Velocity have basically closed up shop. No orders since June and no viable dealer network. Steve's been through tough times before but he always found a way to pay his 2 long time lamination people (husband and wife) that have been with him since he was down in Pompano Beach in the '80's but even they are gone.
At their height they built 80 boats / year. On average they did about 50 / year or at least one a week. In 2008 they built 8 boats......

I wondered how Velocity was going. When I passed there on Thanksgivng, I saw boats in the yard, but no activity. I'll look again tomorrow when headed to St Pete.

[The Hedgehog]

I am with Trueser and Buiz on this one. If facts are not known we need to keep quiet. There are too many bad rumors going around today and that is bad for ALL of us.

You would not believe the garbage I hear about the banking industry these days that is not true at all. That kind of mess hurts borrowers, depositors and investors. Nobody wins from that.

[cutwater]

I am with Trueser and Buiz on this one. If facts are not known we need to keep quiet. There are too many bad rumors going around today and that is bad for ALL of us.
You would not believe the garbage I hear about the banking industry these days that is not true at all. That kind of mess hurts borrowers, depositors and investors. Nobody wins from that.

+1 here!

[Carl C]

+1 here! Then don't read it. I think it is interesting and relevant to a boating forum to discuss the financial situation of the industry and the companies that are closing. Or we could go back to talking about guns............

[roadtrip se]

+1 here!

+2 here.

HG, if you think banking is bad, you should see what passes for truth in the car biz as reported by the media and our friends in DC. If I believed half of what I have heard, I would have packed up the tent long ago. Instead, the pipeline is full as we go into the New Year.

As I have said on the car thread, I'll say it again here, we are talking about stuff that impacts a lot of people including some who frequent here, not just some brand name. So talk if you must, but have a little class while doing it.

[mattyboy]

there are alot of people here that are our friends and fellow board members that work in the industry and for Donzi in particular and any heresay about such things is not needed I just hope we all can weather the rough seas ahead with a minimum of pain and get back to smooth sailing ASAP


a happy and healthy new years to all and may we all prosper


Carl, there you go again I always thought of this as a Donzi forum not just a another boating forum a cut above the rest ;)

[osur866]

Not adding any fuel to the fire, but has anyone thought how the new emissons laws will affect hi-performance boating in the coming future? Coupled with a down economy and more restraints I hope that hi performance boating as we know it will remain, maybe in a different form, but hopefully not be badly crippled as a whole. Only good news as of late is fuel to run them has gotten eaiser on the pocket book. Food for thought. Steve

[fasttrucker]

Yes, interesting read. Someone else there predicts that Donzi will be gone by January '09 in the same thread. I'll dig up the link..........Here it is... http://www.speedwake.com/upload/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59151
I was replying to this guy,s posting I hope donzi will be here for a long time.

[fasttrucker]

trucker.... you've got a lot of nerve posting something like that, where there is no proof of that... that's just not right..
Not hoping for donzi to go under.I was mis-understood here.I was responding to the other post.If donzi was to go under and I do buy a new 27zr then I would not have a warrenty.That would be bad.

[Carl C]

I was replying to this guy,s posting I hope donzi will be here for a long time. Yup, someone over there claimed to have reliable info that Donzi was closing. After some prodding on a couple of threads I haven't heard back from him. It is probably not true. I don't think anyone here was trying to start a rumor. It just hit me the wrong way when folks here acted like they wanted to sweep it under the rug rather than discuss it. Personally I don't think Donzi is going anywhere. I won't mention it again.:nilly::nilly::nilly::nilly:

[Last Tango]

If you haven't bought a brand new Donzi in the past 5 years, then you are part of the problem, not the solution.
If you have never bought a new Donzi, and were not planning to buy a new Donzi in the next year, then I wonder why you even care if the factory closes? If the factory were to close, would the value of existing boats go up because you can't get new ones, or go down because you can't get support?
There are plenty of unsold new Donzi's in dealers hands right now to keep things going for a while, which in turn will make more fine used ones down the road. If you don't buy new Donzi's, then don't lament their current situation, whatever it may be.
The folks buying new Donzi's have been shouldering the load keeping the factory running. Buyers of used boats make it possible for those who want to trade up. But if nobody is buying used boats unless they are practically free, then the new boat buyers have nowhere to move but to stay where they are.

So everybody go out and buy a Donzi new to you, and this crap wouldn't be here in the first place.




Never mind. Somebody will think I was serious and start badmouthing me.

P.S. I think we were talking about OuterLimits on this thread...

[gold-n-rod]

So everybody go out and buy a Donzi new to you, and this crap wouldn't be here in the first place.

Excellent idea. I think I'll borrow against the equity I have gained in my home and do just that. Even better, I think I'll take out one of those adjustable rate loans. I also hear I can get an "interest only" loan. I'll just pay the interest and watch my equity grow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is this a great country or what?!? :nilly::nilly::nilly::nilly::nilly:

[Last Tango]

Now THAT'S the spirit! We can borrow and spend our way out of this mess, just the same way we borrowed and spent our way INTO this mess. Trickle up, trickle down.

[bootdaddy]

Having read the entire speedwake thread on the OL unpaid invoice I found much of the info on how to handle collections (or paying bills with no $) helpful and wise. Having been on both sides of that dilemma in launching a few true start-up companies, you can string people out for a long time if communication continues. I had to learn this through experience, but maybe some will benefit from reading and learning without the painful mistake-laden experience.

As far as rumors go, when a close friend of mine hears a rumor, he simply states "Its amazing how rumors spread isn't it?" And that pretty much stops the rumor monger in their tracks (including me)...:bonk:

On the other hand, I am considering an investment in the performance boating industry (as some may be with boat purchases) so I don't mind the grizzle mill and make my own judgments on truth vs. BS. (Don't ask, can't talk about it, but suffice it to say...it would definitely be a contratian investment move :wink:...folly perhaps.)

A worldclass investor and partner in one of my start-ups has $20mm in Genmar...and hasn't seen a return yet...

Just heard a story yesterday about a Dr. who invested $10mm in Viking a while back...and hasn't seen a dime...

While I don't like bashing/rumors (necessarily) I think it would be disingenious not to consider and banter about the future state of the boating industry, and unfortunately, that usually comes with a certain amount of BS and hearsay.

Let's face it, there is massive boat supply (new and used), tight tight money, and an extremely challenging ecomony...even the unthinkable can happen.

While making friends is a great by-product of forums, my primary draw is education..so I appreciate all the comments.

[show-n-go h2o]

i will say this first. i hope Donzi is here to stay.

someone said you can't get support if they close, try and get it now. i have been fighting a warranty issue with them since mid summer and i think they are waiting for my warranty to expire to get out of it. they reopen on the 7th of january and im suppose to hear something then.

if they are going to weather the storm they better step up in area's like customer service or they will kill themselves...

i owuld like to know the skinny on OL though, we just went and looked at them today, that 39quattro is a sexy machine with ilmor's in it