Critter performance.....

[Donziweasel]

Got off the phone with the owners son who has run the boat. The engine has only 18 hours (6.2L 320 hp). He has GPS'd it at Tahoe at 7000 ft. It ran 56mph. He also GPS's it at sea level and hit 66. My lakes are 7000 ft and 5400 ft.

How much do you think I will pickup with a Whipple?

If I can't get it over 70, I will be looking for BBC, preferably a blue motor. Anyone have an engine they might want to sell that would be a good match for the boat. Probably going to want at least 500hp, NA or SC.

[VetteLT193]

I think you need to get back to basic numbers at sea level first... 66 in that boat at sea level sure seems generous. I have to say that it's lower than that, like low 60's.

Your goal of over 70 means you want to shoot for 500-ish HP. That will guarantee the speed number. The easiest way to think of any supercharger is in percentage amounts.... so @ sea level you need to increase your power by a bit more than 50%... that puts you at 8-ish PSI. (in a perfect world 14.7 doubles HP @ sea level).

8 psi is high boost for a stock marine engine (kaboom). I like 5psi on the high end. That might get you just to 70.

For the mountain factor you'll have to up your boost. I'm not familiar with the boost amounts related to altitude and if you can just boost up to increase your power or if there is a point of diminishing returns?

[Donziweasel]

I don't think 66 is too generous. You have to remember, the 6.2L weighs 250-300 pounds less than a 496 and probably even more than a 454.

By my calculations, he is down to 250 hp at 7000 ft.

500 hp engine would be only 390 up here.

BTW, he is running a 19 pitch up here and a 21 at sea level.

[BUIZILLA]

2" of pitch isn't 10 mph...

[Donziweasel]

Jim, I don't know what he was getting for RPM's with each prop. For that matter, I don't even know if they were the right props in gereral. Could be the 19 was under 4800 and the 21 was over. I do know he is running a 1.5 gear and I will probably switch to a 1.65. I know that out of the 9 boats I have owned out here, whether Bravo or Alpha, none would run with the stock gears (1.5 Bravo, 1.47 Alpha). I have always had to drop a gear.

I don't think the boat was ever set up for high altitude. It makes sense though as he ran it at sea level and at Tahoe.

What would I have to change to go from a SBC to a BBC?

[cutwater]

2" of pitch isn't 10 mph...

It is at 5300 rpms (prop)... But yes, this is an unlikely scenario :wink:

[Last Real Texan]

Got off the phone with the owners son who has run the boat. The engine has only 18 hours (6.2L 320 hp). He has GPS'd it at Tahoe at 7000 ft. It ran 56mph. He also GPS's it at sea level and hit 66. My lakes are 7000 ft and 5400 ft.
How much do you think I will pickup with a Whipple?
If I can't get it over 70, I will be looking for BBC, preferably a blue motor. Anyone have an engine they might want to sell that would be a good match for the boat. Probably going to want at least 500hp, NA or SC.
I'll sell you mine complete less headers... Building something bigger:nilly:
800 plus hp and it is blue



Tex

[Donziweasel]

And the price for said monster?:wink:

Man, should have gone in with Air 22 on the other blue motor.

[BUIZILLA]

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/general-boating-discussion/370587d1229023193t-6-0l-supercharged-engine-504hp-kodiak-6_0sc-large-.jpg (http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/attachments/general-boating-discussion/370587d1229023193-6-0l-supercharged-engine-504hp-kodiak-6_0sc-large-.jpg)

[BlownCrewCab]

That "Cold Air" should really Help with performance. Let us Know Wednesday (or tuesday night) how it runs, :wink:

[SilverBack]

I'll sell you mine complete less headers... Building something bigger:nilly:
800 plus hp and it is blue



Tex

That would be a great deal for you. Tex has a very nice engine!! I think he is making closer to 850 HP. If I were you I would be talking to Tex!!!

[chappy]

Someone may be interested in your 6.2 if you're leaning toward the Blue one, maybe right here on the board.:wavey:

[MOP]

I agree with 66 being very generous for a377=6.2 320 hp, I run a 383=6.3 with real good innards and yes a fair cam only 510 lift I make 370 hp 430lbs torque my best top is 65.5@sea level. My 22 has had quite a bit of weight transferred aft which also helps with top end. When I had the stock Tempest it ran 61+ supposedly it was rated at 300 at the prop with the Alpha drive, the Alpha is about 2 mph faster then a Bravo. Don you need a bigger rubber band no question!!!

Phil

[RedDog]

Hate to be snarkey, but why don't you try running it as is and see how you like it.

If you don't like its performance I might could take it off of your hands - I have a 22 that runs over 70 that we could swap out

[zelatore]

Just FYI, Tahoe ain't 7000 ft.

More like 6200.

As for wanting to mod the boat and talking blowers and blue motors before you even get the thing home - I aplaud the enthusiasim. But I gotta agree with RedDog - run the thing the way it's set up first and see what you've got for a baseline. At your altitute I'm sure you're going to want more power, but let's see where you stand now. You might be able to get some more out of it with gears or proping. Besides, I'm really interested to see how that motor runs compared to the old 454s. I'm betting it'll give about the same or better numbers due to the lower weight.

[BUIZILLA]

a 6.2/320 Bravo should run dead nuts what a dinasour 330/TRS did... and that wasn't 66 by any means...

[Donziweasel]

Alright, first, I am going to run it and see what my baseline is of course. I have an idea of speed, but not rpm's in it's current setup.

My goal is 70mph up here. If the boat only runs 55 (everyone seems to think 56 was generous), I do not think the Whipple will get me there.

So, now I beg the question-what will? A Whipple is 6000.00. That is a lot of money towards a BBC. Plus, I have a 6.2 that is brand new and worth some money. I think maybe I should forget the Whipple and look at repower. There were some amazing setups for sale on OSO that made me drool.

[Last Real Texan]

And the price for said monster?:wink:
Man, should have gone in with Air 22 on the other blue motor.
Just pulling you over to the dark side. Give me a call I may have something for you
478-737-0003


Tex

[BERTRAM BOY]

a 6.2/320 Bravo should run dead nuts what a dinasour 330/TRS did... and that wasn't 66 by any means...


I agree 100%...and don't forget, the Criter is AT LEAST 400-500 lbs heavier than a 22 classic.

[Donziweasel]

a 6.2/320 Bravo should run dead nuts what a dinasour 330/TRS did... and that wasn't 66 by any means

What was the speed with the 330 trs setup?

[BUIZILLA]

62-63 :wink:

[Donziweasel]

Jim, is it possible that he picked up a mile an hour or two due to wieght savings? 6.2 is 320 horse, 454 was 330 horse, BUT, 6.2L weighs 300 pounds less.

[BERTRAM BOY]

What was the speed with the 330 trs setup?


The best Brenden and I saw in his Criter with the original power was 62. That was on GPS, with 1/3 tank of gas, going down river (3-4 mph current).

With current power 502/415 (it has a slight cam upgrade & Revolution Marine manifolds) he's running 72ish.

[Donziweasel]

Hmmmm........I need 400+ hp to hit 70 at my altitude. That means I need around 525 hp at sea level.........:)

[BUIZILLA]

IMO, a Bravo is faster than a TRS by about 2, maybe 3.... the 330 has more torque to carry the extra weight though and the mandatory deep X drag of the TRS, so it's an even trade off... I do know this much, a shortie with a small block on a 22 is the macdaddy sh1t, especially with a rear steer weight balance... so add the Whipple, get a shortie, that's a minimum of 15 mph gain, and leave it alone after that... you already have a new installed engine in place, running perfect, you don't need (IMO) an intercooler with your water temp's, you'll still be cheaper than swapping for a BBC, get better economy, be lighter, just as fast, and you can now join the Criterion Sandbagger Club (which is VERY exclusive)

a lot of people will disagree with me, but until you've seen a well prepared small block run in a 22, then..... if someone wants my Critter, i'll build a Whipple small block 22 in a mid 90ish hull and prove it.. I would venture to say only Ted, Catch, Byron and Grizz would be faster, and that's a maybe... I love small blocks and I *KNOW* what I can do with them... :pimp:

[Donziweasel]

You think with the Whipple setup I could hit 70 up here? Here's Whipple's dyno chart on this system-

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/johnnyalltrans/62MXMPI_Dyno2.jpg

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/johnnyalltrans/62MXMPI_Dyno1.jpg

$6,800.00 for the system. Very hard call, blow it, or re-power. Looks like Whipple is claiming 470 hp. Jim, you said once you thought this was BS, and 420 was more like it.

[sweet 16 1966]

Go ahead Jim and build a sled on rails that sips gas. You may start something. We would love to see it. Balanced, blueprinted - high flowing heads, heck you could even stroke it out and run with the big boys!

Donziweasel--we need some pics and a baseline!!

[BUIZILLA]

not sure I agree with the lower chart, that looks like a Procharger chart...

anyways, you haven't run the boat yet, much less even seen it, and you can't until April, you get kids in May.... you may or may not like what you bought... put this on the back burner for a year...

[Donziweasel]

I guess my dilema is will I be happy with the 6.2L w/Whipple? The problem is, that if I am not, I have gone as far as I can with the engine without stroking it.

On the other hand, I could pick up something like this for the same price as the whipple-

http://www.offshoreonlyclassifieds.com/fresh_509_ci_with_brand_new_afr_315cnc_heads-o26113-en.html

And if I am not happy with it, throw on a blower with mild boost and go from there.

Man, this is frickin killing me.

If I went the 6.2 w/ blower and was not happy, would anyone here be interested in the engine and blower? Might make a nice package for an 18 or as Jim said, a 22.

[MOP]

Contrary to what many think I know the SB weight reduction is not in your favor, I have a SB 22 which I did a fair bit to get the weight aft following Geo's advice. I have the original 55 gal forward stock tank and a 40 gal aft tank about 14"s ahead of the engine plus a few other goodies moved aft. When I fill the stock forward tank two things happen the boat porpoises and I lose 2+ mph, the CG on a 22 in stock form is a bit to far forward. Switching from a BB to a SB takes about 200lbs out of the azz end the CG obviously moves forward slowing the boat down. There is a very real difference with weight transfer in the 22, in a stock setup it takes quite a bit of drive trim to carry the nose to get max speed. I use about half the drive trim now compared to the before it was modified.

Phil

[BUIZILLA]

Go ahead Jim and build a sled on rails that sips gas. You may start something. We would love to see it. Balanced, blueprinted - high flowing heads, heck you could even stroke it out and run with the big boys! actually, I had bookmarked the exact boat you bought, was gonna get Tamm's engine, get a shortie, and start there... stars, timing, and flow, didn't match at the time... at this point, Zimm is the perfect candidate... few people realize how perfect Tamm's engine build combo was set up for a 22... I degress.. :pimp:

[Donziweasel]

Both Charts are from Whipple.

Phil, I have been told the Critters CG is more towards the rear than a regular 22 due to configuration.

[osur866]

I don't know much about the critters but 66 gps I have to say is BS, I have that exact engine combo in an 18 and before I did shorty, SSM exhaust, and found a labbed prop was hitting 68-69 all day long with a best of 70 and now with shorty, exhaust, prop 73 best and that is at 960' on the livorsi gps recall. If you can wait about a year or so I might be able to tell you how the 6.2 likes the whipple :wink:. Steve

[MOP]

Both Charts are from Whipple.

Phil, I have been told the Critters CG is more towards the rear than a regular 22 due to configuration.


I totally disagree with the CG on a BB 22 being to far forward..

Add to the mix in a Critter the driver sits in the rear seat along with a passenger or two, the comparison is even more skewed..

In the Critters case you are probably right I have -0- experience in the corner, but in my 22 I can demonstrate the difference very easily then suffer slower speed and porpoising. I would not have made the changes to mine if it were not for the fact that Geo was so emphatic about getting as much aft as possible, I am moving a little more back this coming spring.

Phil

[BigGrizzly]

Well boys here I come. Since I have done it. First Buiz if he had a borg that would be true with the merc trans it is much less, about 1 mph different then the bravo. To spite popular beliefs the TRS isn't that bad at all. In fact the first generation bravos were slower. A small block and a bravo and a big block with a merctrans an TRS will be similar with the 330bbc with the edge. I was with Buiz w3hen he did his speed run in his boat at 62.6 MPH on my GPS. The funny part is the boat wasn't any slower when we filled up at lunch. My original 330 engine propped to the hill, I have this technology, was 63 and change. My Criterion is 3700 lbs with about 10 gallons of fuel and engine wet. Due to seating and what not is where the difference is from a standard 22 plus the hull is different then the later 22 hulls. I know better then most what that boat is capable of. I venture to say I have more hours behind the wheel of a Criterion then anyone on the board, especially in the high horse power mode. I an ashamed to say I actually put a little over 90 hours on it with stock steering in the blower mode, never again. To say the least the speeds that were stated were optimistic with a small block with the setup it has and props. As for the Wipple graph, since Garry has had a small block for his Dads truck on the dyno, His graph is not what I saw. with the 6.2. Trust me the setup was right. As for Buiz building a small block that will rival big blocks each with a super on it in that hull I think he can do it. Also remember my engine is a mild state of tune. My fuel economy is at least as good as a stock 454 in the same hull. After seeing what I have The only thing Wipple has over the other packages id it looks good. But it is subjective. John remember the Criterion was designed with the big block in it. I have never liked the small block idea in that boat. Check the early post when the boat was for sale a couple of years ago. I won't gen into the big block vs small block discussion it would be like oil and props. Now for the 70 mph at your altitude. The drive ratio thing is dependent on the most efficient prop to be used. The 23 is more efficient then a 21 at 3000 prop rpms not engine rpms. A 25 is better then a 23 under the same situation. this works up untill you get to 32 inches of pitch then other things come into play, the paddle wheel effect. More involved which I will only go into over a pizza and beer- you buy. My suggestion is drive the boat where you are first then and only then decide what game plan you want to go with. Now you will have to determine prop slip etc. before a decision is made. from that point you have a direction. So go with the real Criterion owner directions. For instance Cliff learned from Poodle and me on the prop:wink: :shocking: Critters don't like hydros.:frown: Just keep that thing warm. No fair sitting in the seat and making engine noises with your mouth and butt during the winter.

[Donziweasel]

Hmmmm......everyone has given me a lot to think about. One problem......our lakes do not thaw until late April, or even mid-May. I was hoping to do whatever I am going to do with it this winter. Lakes aren't frozen right now, but it is cold as hell.

Also, I don't want to do it this summer. Remember, I have to move, and have twins. BTW, on the road trip, Boo Boo was reading to me when I was driving a book called "Ready or not, here we come, The guide to twins". Steven King could not have written a better horror novel. All that will happen is I will have it apart, never get it back together and miss out on the once in a blue moon I can boat. I know it isn't going to run where I want it to right now.

So in recap-

Phil and Randy say BBC.
Scot and Jim say SBC/ w Blower, but Jim likes Blue motors.
Steve call BS on speed, but has not offered an idea yet and will have a whine under his hatch within the year.:)
Vette says the boost needed to hit 70 will grenade my engine eventually
Rich wants the 6.2L with 18 hours on it.
Don says run it first.
Silverback wants me to buy a blown 800 hp big block.
Tex is just plain scaring the crap out of me with whatever he has cooked up.:)

You guys are fickin' killing me.

Alright, first, give me some baselines on what you are running. Randy, Scot, Jim, Farmer TX, McGary, Ed, Bertram, I could really use the help. Can you please post your engine hp, prop, rpm's and top speed? Also, any handling issues at different speeds. This being real world knowledge will really help me figure out what to do. I owe all of you!:wink:

[osur866]

I think the only thing you really need to think about is finishing that great looking house your building having the babies and getting the boat to your home and ready for next season and to get used to all the other changes you have going on JMO - Steve

[Donziweasel]

Thanks Steve, but I really want to get it set up before all that. House is coming along fine, Boo Boo is doing great, life is good. Got some winter to kill though.........:wink:

At kinda a standstill on the Bronco while the body is being done, need a project....

[osur866]

I'd think getting it home and getting a few hours on it would be good before attempting a bunch of changes before you get a chance to see what it will do now is the consenous. Steve

[Donziweasel]

I'd think getting it home and getting a few hours on it would be good before attempting a bunch of changes before you get a chance to see what it will do now is the consenous. Steve

Yes and no. I have a pretty good idea where it is going to run. Probably mid 50's.

Remember, my 16 ran mid 50's in Iowa where is came from. Ran 47 up here. Got it over 60 now. Going to see if I can find out from the owner what RPM's he was pulling WOT at Tahoe.

Regardless of what my base is, it is going to need help. :wink:

[Donziweasel]

Point taken Poodle, but I know I will not be happy with it like it is.

Regardless if I mess with it now vs. later, still would like to know what your setup is and how fast you are running.

Economy is bad. There are some great deals on engines right now and sales on blowers. Once again, whether I mess with it now or later, might purchase whatever I need now.....

It is winter, I am bored, this thread has some great info, and no reason not to throw around some ideas.......

[Donziweasel]

Leave it alone...

My schedule would be:

Get boat home..

Clean/detail boat to your standards..

Install dual ram hydraulic steering system...

Finish the Lazy P..

Do any other dress up stuff you might want to do..

Prep for the twins..

Order Lifelines for all

Thanks Dr. Phil.:wink: Now do you have any advice on how to make the boat go faster now that my life is straightened out?:bonk::)

[BigGrizzly]

First off the engine is not too far froward the classic engines are to far back. Steve Simond and I tossed this around and came up with that with a big block. I am with Po on the twin ram set up.
Now to answer the question on power etc.
My Criterion:
502, Procharged carb in a box is 698 HP depending on weather with dyno sheet.
Top speed publicly announced is 86 with a full fuel and 2 aboard and driver
approximately 5200 Rpms
Prop, out of the box 29 TXP (most of the time):)


All other specs will only be told by voice.:wink:

Unless you have had time with a classic and the Criterion you just won't understand:):):):)

[Donziweasel]

502, Procharged carb in a box is 698 HP depending on weather with dyno sheet.
Top speed publicly announced is 86 with a full fuel and 2 aboard and driver
approximately 5200 Rpms
Prop, out of the box 29 TXP (most of the time)


All other specs will only be told by voice.

Unless you have had time with a classic and the Criterion you just won't understand

Alright, now we are getting somewhere.

698 hp, propped out=86mph
330 hp w/trs= 62
502CID@415=72

Randy, how does she handle above 80?

[Donziweasel]

Randy, one more question. How much room do you have between the top of the 502 and the hatch?

[SilverBack]

Buy Tex's 500 EFI that has more like 850 HP. Buy an IMCO extreme S/C drive with a -2 lower. You may be able to get that from Tex also!! Dual ram hydraulic steering. If it is too fast just pull back on the throttle. I bet Tex will treat you right on the price!!

Mark Boos has nothing but good things to say about Tex and his engine!

[BERTRAM BOY]

Randy, one more question. How much room do you have between the top of the 502 and the hatch?


Not much!!!......Just ask 'Poodle.

All this talk of big power is very interesting, but aren't you you running an Alpha drive on that boat?

[Donziweasel]

All this talk of big power is very interesting, but aren't you you running an Alpha drive on that boat?

Bravo. The owner put a brand new 6.2L and Bravo in it in 2004. This was not rebuilt or reman, but new through a Merc dealer.

BTW, did you get the HIN number I sent ya?

[BERTRAM BOY]

Bravo. The owner put a brand new 6.2L and Bravo in it in 2004. This was not rebuilt or reman, but new through a Merc dealer.
BTW, did you get the HIN number I sent ya?


Yup, It looks like yours is the 12 Criter built.

That's good news about the Bravo.

[Donziweasel]

So I have Critter #12. sweet! Who has number 1 and what number is yours?

Funny, boat sat for sale for 6 months. I have now had three offers on it.

[zelatore]

Funny, boat sat for sale for 6 months. I have now had three offers on it.

Wierd, but I've seen that happen time and again on the brokerage market. I've always attributed it to the salesman's attitute - when you've got a deal working on a boat you're naturally (if unconsiously) more upbeat about it which in turn rubs off on the buyers.

Ah, the good old days.....when we had buyers....

[BigGrizzly]

Actually, I have about 3 inches from box to top. As for Criterion number 1, Cliff does have and verifiable. As for handling above 80 MPH, not bad until 84 then it takes your 100% undivided attention and it is work, you just act like it is easy to people looking at you. Also I have full hydraulic steering and hours in the boat and any prop I want, except one which I gave to a extremely good friend. That was the first prop I did 86+ with. John if you ever get out here to visit your Mom we can talk specifically at length on the Criterion subject.

[Donziweasel]

Going to be a while before I get back that way. I flew mom out here this summer. With the twins, she will probably be spending more time here than me there for a while. Still, I like going to Atlanta and actually have to take care of some business there possibly in the spring. Will let you know.:wink:

Don, it is kinda strange. No one has offered me money, just "if you don't want it, I'll buy it" kinda thing. I just got it, it is a rare donzi in great shape, and it is going stay with papa for a while.:wink:

[BigGrizzly]

I have been hearing that excuse since you got on the board:wink:

[Donziweasel]

I have been hearing that excuse since you got on the board

I know, I need a better excuse! Living in WY definetly has it's drawbacks. All of my family is in ATL, the 60 feet of snow thing, 8 months of winter, etc.... In the end, I think the pro's outwiegh the con's.

Now, I think I have a direction. 540 Bulldog w/procharger. I even have a line on a procharger from another member for it. Thanks unnamed member!:wink:

Seriously, going the BB route, any interest in the 6.2L? Could be a nice engine for a 16 or 18, and ready for blower........

[osur866]

And is there steering coming before the 540 blower or after?

[Donziweasel]

And is there steering coming before the 540 blower or after?

Same time, dual ram, safety first! Of yeah, Imco also, but not at first. Need Santa to bring me money!!!!:wink:

[BigGrizzly]

One thing I will say about a 540 and blower, is that too much throttle about 3200RPMs and good by drive. The sister of my procharged 502 took out 11 bravos in two months. A 540 with a vortex took out two Imcos and 1 number six and a bam trans. If you do not put on hydraulic it will crack the transome plate. Of course with the poor air you have it won't be as severe. :wink: There is something else. With that kind of power you run out of real estate in a hurry. From Gainsville to Marry Alice park in 33 minutes.

[Donziweasel]

Going to put in the engine first. 500 hp up here is around 400. We'll see what happens. Bravo is good for 400. I also am very easy on my boats and drives. If not happy, will look at the blower.

[onesubdrvr]

I know, I need a better excuse! Living in WY definetly has it's drawbacks. All of my family is in ATL, the 60 feet of snow thing, 8 months of winter, etc.... In the end, I think the pro's outwiegh the con's.

Now, I think I have a direction. 540 Bulldog w/procharger. I even have a line on a procharger from another member for it. Thanks unnamed member!:wink:

Seriously, going the BB route, any interest in the 6.2L? Could be a nice engine for a 16 or 18, and ready for blower........
I think the 6.2 is a great motor, and I'm sure it'll draw a good amount of interest.

Me, it's going to be 2 years until I'm ready for a motor (which is OK by me), but there should be good interest all around. If not here, OSO / etc.

Wayne

[VetteLT193]

I have to agree with Poodle too. Drive it as is...

hindsight with my boat: I wish I just ran the piss out of it as it was. I started the rebuild process last winter, it isn't back yet from paint... I would have painted it myself if I had the time. When it actually comes back who the heck knows when I'll have time to work on it to finish it up... I have new parts all over my house.

Kids don't just take time, they drain the energy out of you like you wouldn't believe. The free time I used to have was spent doing all kinds of stuff, usually in the garage... half of my free time now I actually enjoy loafing on the sofa, which is something I never liked before, but it seems necessary to rebuild energy to chase the kid around. And I only have one so far, and she's a good kid:bonk:

[zelatore]

Kids don't just take time, they drain the energy out of you like you wouldn't believe. The free time I used to have was spent doing all kinds of stuff, usually in the garage... half of my free time now I actually enjoy loafing on the sofa, which is something I never liked before, but it seems necessary to rebuild energy to chase the kid around. And I only have one so far, and she's a good kid:bonk:

One could argue that that's a good reason to upgrade it now....




I'm just sayin' :wink:

[Donziweasel]

Game plan is to get it here, take pics, sit in it, make engine noises and pretend to drive it in the driveway. Then, into storage. Got to get the Bronco done. Will pull it out at the beginning of March, try and find some water, get a base and go from there. Since I am not taking my usual month in the Bahamas this spring, I will have plenty of time to do whatever. I already have two dogs, but not a BULLDOG!:wink:

[mrfixxall]

Wait!! leave it a small block,unless you want to do some glass work and paint work..

Im with buiz! you can get alot of power out of a small block.
Look into the lsx block when gm comes out with their crate engines in this version..they will be well over 500 hp..