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Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 01:07 PM
In the paper, thought it rang true to an extent-

Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:43 AM
Subject: FW: Intermountain Letter to the Editor- Elkins Fordland

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming
and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our
nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are
completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that
affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is
shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the
opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a
dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s,
'80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto
myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must
have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the
U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S.
GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize
that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated
over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial
quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par
with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that
beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg
is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the
Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be
referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1
billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've
noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to
get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years
Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have
dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this
won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan
or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22
billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex
fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once
again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality
shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given
so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is
more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of
our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very
hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253
million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase
2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is
requesting will be paid back, Alabama 's $180,000-plus per job was pure
incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a
self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack
of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and
decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus
emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11
relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to
produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto
producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to
force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and
legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme
disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in
2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford
Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000
since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future
product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a
company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management
have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you
Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed
of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that
created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions
to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250
billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big
Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the
country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make
sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion
unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be
touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity.
However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do
business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost
retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover
from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who
foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care,
unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the
taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a
loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big
Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the
economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit . Before
you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and
turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation,
I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to
end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate
2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in
the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of
tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it
in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson

DonziJon
12-09-2008, 03:02 PM
DAM: With ALL that Good News about how Detroit has been beating the competition in All Areas,..... WHAT'S The Freakin Problem??? :bonk: Just wondering. John

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 03:16 PM
Dunno, but he sure doesn't like Sen. Shelby from Alabama.

Ghost
12-09-2008, 03:26 PM
There really is no end to the hypocrisy in Congress. Those people have no shame.

(And yet, some of this author's math starts to break down pretty badly in the last few paragraphs...)

Tony
12-09-2008, 04:28 PM
Could much of the disparity between the cost of blue collar workers employed at the Big Three and blue collar workers employed by foreign automakers be attributed to the tremendous rise in health insurance costs over the last decade?
Food for thought...

What is the biggest threat to the U.S. economy? According to Congressional Budget Office Director Peter Orszag, it is not credit famine, the long-term price of energy, competition from China, the loss of jobs overseas, or even a surfeit of Chrysler SUVs.

It is, Orszag declared (http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=179) in October, “the nation’s looming fiscal gap — which is driven primarily by rising health care costs.” Healthcare inflation cannot be ignored, Orszag added, because “If we fail to put the nation on a sounder fiscal course. . . we will ultimately reach a point where investors [will] lose confidence and no longer be as willing to purchase Treasury debt at anything but exorbitant interest rates.”

Why does Orszag single out soaring health care costs as the driving force behind our fiscal woes? Because healthcare spending accounts for over 16 percent of GDP, and it continues to grow faster than other sectors, outpacing both growth in GDP and workers’ wages. At $2.3 trillion a year and counting, our national health care bill is rising so fast that it threatens to crowd out other priorities—like spending on education, the environment, and infrastructure repair.

Read the full article here:
http://takingnote.tcf.org/2008/11/more-truths-abo.html


:beer:

Ghost
12-09-2008, 06:17 PM
Could much of the disparity between the cost of blue collar workers employed at the Big Three and blue collar workers employed by foreign automakers be attributed to the tremendous rise in health insurance costs over the last decade?
Food for thought...

I presume you are talking about the costs of workers for foreign makers here in the States, like TN, KY, etc., as opposed to workers overseas? I don't know, but I would guess the costs of healthcare are reasonably comparable in those areas to the costs in Detroit and other places where American auto workers are.

If that assumption is correct, it sounds like the delta would be driven by the coverage provided (e.g.: how much of the healthcare costs are being built into the wages), or differences in demographics of the covered workers (e.g.: more older workers, more retirees to support, etc.) My guess is that the retiree burden is the driver--the foreign makers should have a much smaller retiree/worker ratio, at least here, than the US makers. Rising healthcare costs would definitely exacerbate this.



Orszag added, because “If we fail to put the nation on a sounder fiscal course. . . we will ultimately reach a point where investors [will] lose confidence and no longer be as willing to purchase Treasury debt at anything but exorbitant interest rates.”

Couldn't help but note that hearing anyone from the Congressional "Budget" Office [quotes added] use the phrase "sounder fiscal course" or "exorbitant interest rates" just makes me want to heave.

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 06:49 PM
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford
Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000
since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future
product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a
company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management
have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you
Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

I have to agree with this statement in the letter. Ford has done a good job and was more prepared for the economy dowturn than GM or Chrysler.

BUIZILLA
12-09-2008, 06:56 PM
the other night there was an interview with the SC Governor on the boob tube about how well and wildly successful BMW was in the SC labor utilization sector... it bragged pretty heavily on how happy everyone was, and how it had it's costs under control :yes:

quite the contrast of what the BIG 3 testified to.. :popcorn:

what's up with Saturn?? other than the copycat Outlook what do they have to offer? :boggled:

and now we have a Hummer pickemup truck? :bonk:

the State of Alabama had to buy how many Benz's?? like, WTF is that all about... :mad:

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 07:36 PM
Boo Boo and I drove up from Mobile to Atlanta this past spring. We passed a auto plant that was under construction on the Georgia Alabama border. I have never seen a building this big. It was HUGE. Went for over a mile. I almost pulled over and took a pic. I bet you could see this thing from space.

I asked my father about it as he lives in Atlanta. I think he said it was Hundai, but I am not sure. It was foreign. Georgia was VERY excited to get this plant. Point is, foreign manufacturer are coming to the US and doing it for a reason. They are somehow producing cars more efficiently with US labor than the Big three.

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Found it. It was Kia. 1.2 BILLION DOLLAR plant. Here is the aritcle I found with others-

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-na-newdetroit29-2008nov29,0,6591653.story?track=rss

Check out this qoute from the article-


Kia Motors, the South Korean automaker, is building a plant in town, promising 2,500 jobs to help replace a textile industry that has all but vanished. The locals are excited to have nonunion work that will start at about $14 per hour.

Well slap my ass and call me Judy!!!!!!!!

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 07:49 PM
Read some more articles, it is a very rural poor area of Georgia/Alabama. These people frickin' love Kia. 2500 jobs.

Kia probably bought this land pennies on the acre, two hours south of Atlanta, on a major interstate, in an area that needed jobs. These people are just happy to have a job and don't care if starting wage is 14.00. Other indusrty will grow up, resuarants, shopping, etc... Hat's off to Kia, hope it works.

Ranman
12-09-2008, 08:10 PM
Awesome article. Couldn't agree more.

The Hedgehog
12-09-2008, 08:33 PM
Read some more articles, it is a very rural poor area of Georgia/Alabama. These people frickin' love Kia. 2500 jobs.
Kia probably bought this land pennies on the acre, two hours south of Atlanta, on a major interstate, in an area that needed jobs. These people are just happy to have a job and don't care if starting wage is 14.00. Other indusrty will grow up, resuarants, shopping, etc... Hat's off to Kia, hope it works.

I don't really understand all of the dynamics of the auto industry but I think that you have a pretty good point John.

I am spending a bunch of time working with some folks from upper Ohio and Michigan this week. These guys are pretty sharp and are VERY in tune with their local economy. It is quite enlightening.

Now on a more fun note. I am ready to help out with the local economy in JH. Flights are cheap and snow is coming.

Donziweasel
12-09-2008, 08:53 PM
Flights are cheap and snow is coming

SNow is here!!!!! Got almost a foot yesterday and the day before. Calling for HUGE storm this weekend starting Friday night.

I really like what Kia is doing there the more I read.

Could the South be the next Detroit?????

gcarter
12-10-2008, 06:23 AM
Could the South be the next Detroit?????

Maybe it already is.....in a small but growing way.

Donziweasel
12-11-2008, 07:30 AM
Maybe it already is.....in a small but growing way.

:wink:

zelatore
12-11-2008, 09:53 AM
So they're half way there now but it just keeps getting worse. Anybody heard what role exactly the 'car tsar' will play?

I heard a local on the radio spouting off the usual rhetoric about how they need to make Detroit produce efficient cars 'like they sell in Europe'.

So many problems....where to start...

First, a show of hands for who thinks putting a federal official in charge of what the automakers are allowed to sell is a good way to bring them back to profitability as opposed to using the market to determine what's in demand and can make a profit.

Second, you know all those efficient cars 'they sell in Europe'? They're diesel you idiots! And you (meaning the government and environmentalists) have been fighting against bringing in diesels for years!

Myself, I'm all for more diesels in the states. It would take a while to get the general public over the idea of the old GM diesels of the 80s, but once a few got into circulation I believe Mr. and Mrs. America would learn that they really like diesels power. It's the closest thing to what we grew up with in terms of big bottom end torque and a big lunge off the bottom without spinning it to 10,000,000 RPM.

Let them bring in euro spec diesels, and they could have 40 mpg small sedans an a couple years. But they're not going to do it.

There are plenty of other issues, but it seems economy is the catchphrase of the bailout, so that's what I'm griping about today.

chappy
12-11-2008, 10:18 AM
So they're half way there now but it just keeps getting worse. Anybody heard what role exactly the 'car tsar' will play?

I heard a local on the radio spouting off the usual rhetoric about how they need to make Detroit produce efficient cars 'like they sell in Europe'.

So many problems....where to start...

First, a show of hands for who thinks putting a federal official in charge of what the automakers are allowed to sell is a good way to bring them back to profitability as opposed to using the market to determine what's in demand and can make a profit.

Second, you know all those efficient cars 'they sell in Europe'? They're diesel you idiots! And you (meaning the government and environmentalists) have been fighting against bringing in diesels for years!

Myself, I'm all for more diesels in the states. It would take a while to get the general public over the idea of the old GM diesels of the 80s, but once a few got into circulation I believe Mr. and Mrs. America would learn that they really like diesels power. It's the closest thing to what we grew up with in terms of big bottom end torque and a big lunge off the bottom without spinning it to 10,000,000 RPM.

Let them bring in euro spec diesels, and they could have 40 mpg small sedans an a couple years. But they're not going to do it.

There are plenty of other issues, but it seems economy is the catchphrase of the bailout, so that's what I'm griping about today.


Ironic, isn't it.
:rofl:

cutwater
12-11-2008, 10:38 AM
Point is, foreign manufacturer are coming to the US and doing it for a reason. They are somehow producing cars more efficiently with US labor than the Big three.

Bingo... I just quickly read through this thread, but has anyone mentioned the unions yet? U.S. automakers' problem really isn't quality - the difference is that Georgia's $14/hour is a far cry from the average Detroit autoworker pay. And they are still wondering why the Big Three profit margins are actually negative???

Average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker is $73.21 an hour Toyota, Honda and Nissan pay a still-generous $44.20 an hour in total compensation — a cost edge of nearly 40% (http://rightvoices.com/2008/11/18/average-total-compensation-for-a-big-three-autoworker-is-7321-an-hour-toyota-honda-and-nissan-pay-a-still-generous-4420-an-hour-in-total-compensation-%e2%80%94-a-cost-edge-of-nearly-40/)

Donziweasel
12-11-2008, 11:31 AM
Bingo... I just quickly read through this thread, but has anyone mentioned the unions yet? U.S. automakers' problem really isn't quality - the difference is that Georgia's $14/hour is a far cry from the average Detroit autoworker pay. And they are still wondering why the Big Three profit margins are actually negative???

That is exactly my point. The people living in that area are psyched to have those jobs @ 14.00 hr. Read more, Kia will NOT touh unionized labor.

Unions came about because of horrible working conditions and low wages. I think they are dinosaurs. Working conditions are some of the best in the world and wages are the same in the US now.

I want to bring up Eastern Airlines. Some of you may remember Eastern. Eastern was HUGE. They ran into big money problems, much like the big 3. They went to the unions asking for cuts so they could survive. Unions said no. Eastern went under and EVERYONE lost thier jobs. Was it worth it? Hell no, you not only lost your big fat wages, you lost your job. It is amazing to me how quickly these lessons are forgotten.

I know some members are union workers and I am not trying to start a fight, but, the unions have a lot to do with the problems facing the Big 3 right now whether they want to admit it or not.

I don't know about BMW and Mercedes in the US, but I bet they are non-union factories also.

Kia doesn't need them for one reason, they are treating and paying these people fairly and want to be accepted in the south.

BTW, the reason I don't like unions also hits close to home. My mom was working for Eastern when they went under and lost her job because of greed.

apollo24
12-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Just got this from someone. At first I thought it was funny, but then I realized that it wasn't so funny.....

DonziJon
12-11-2008, 12:51 PM
What hasn't been mentioned in this discussion, not only here, but in the Drive By Media. The Unions and Detroit are NOT the Only ones responsible for this predicament..CONGRESS needs to step up and admit they are right up there with culpibility....That will never happen.

Some years ago CONGRESS decided to impose stricter emissions standards (CAFE) on "Passenger Cars". Trucks were NOT included because..for one thing, maybe the Teamsters. SO: Detroit responded with .....Guess What: SUVs, ...which were built on truck chassis and therefore did not come under the tight new standards. America said YES and bought them..maybe a little of that was ...the people saying F-U CONGRESS. :yes:

So now CONGRESS is stepping in Again to tell Detroit WHAT to build. This time it's the environmentalists driving the push with Electric Cars that only a few tree huggers are going to buy......And THIS when Detroit is over a barrel financially...Maybe IN the barrel.

One more thing that no one wants to acknowledge is WHY are JOBs and Companies going "Offshore"? The answer is NOT complicated AT ALL. TAXES and Too Much intrusion by ...guess who? CONGRESS. Congress is forcing company's to Go Offshore to Avoid Taxes and environmental rules that make it imposable for OUR U.S. companies to build something in THIS country.

Need something that is made in a Foundry? Go to China. THEY have Free Enterprise.

Need a Forging? Go to China. THEY have Free Enterprise.

The common denominator: CONGRESS. THEY are working for YOU.

When a Faceless Commitee designs something, the results are usually predictable.....AND NO ONE Person is responsible. It can't get any better than that. . "It WASN'T ME"! :bonk: John

Ghost
12-11-2008, 01:18 PM
I know some members are union workers and I am not trying to start a fight, but, the unions have a lot to do with the problems facing the Big 3 right now whether they want to admit it or not.

...

BTW, the reason I don't like unions also hits close to home. My mom was working for Eastern when they went under and lost her job because of greed.

In addition to your spot-on description of the game of chicken being played (how much pay cut to settle for vesus losing the job altogether), I would add that there is plenty to gripe about that has nothing to do with unions at all.

I think the unions are yet one more piece that is out of whack in the perfect storm of this crisis. They did what made sense in an artificial world. The problem is that the things they would have had to do anyway are happening at the same time that everything else is going wrong, and I see government policy as the root of it all. (But I won't hijack this thread with that, I'll start a new one. Actually two, for people who are interested.)

Donziweasel
12-11-2008, 06:13 PM
Ghost, I agree, unions are only a part of the puzzle, but I think it is a pretty damn big piece. If other manufactures are utilizing labor for 40% less than the Big 3, then something ain't right and there is no way they can compete.