Recurring Hull Cracking

[Carl C]

I'm moving this to a new thread so to not hijack Smokediver's similar thread. This is not in any way with malicious intent toward Donzi. My boat is under warranty and will be repaired. As with several other 22Cs near 2005 vintage, my hull cracked. My boat is a 2005 w/496HO. Donzi paid to have a repair kit glassed in late in '06. The work looked top notch and I was happy with the results but now the cracks have reappeared on the bottom along the strakes. Here are pics of the bilge after the repair. The cracking is hard to photograph but here are 3 pics of the port side and 2 pics of the starboard side.

Trueser, I climbed in the engine compartment today with a light and mirror and closely examined everything and I didn't see any cracks in there. I am sending an e-mail.

I will be contacting Donzi tomorrow and will send them the pics.

My concern is whether my hull is even viable. I may have to take it to the factory since it may need a new hull:frown:. I will know more after I call them. Meanwhile all advice and input would be appreciated.

The stringers have 2 holes in them at the rear on each side. Just thought that was interesting and here is a pic of that too.

[BlownCrewCab]

I Know it sucks to see cracks on a newer boat but they dont necessarily mean it's Bad, or even flawed. Gel coat is brittle and won't take much deflection before it shows the point where the deflection is happening. Just adding more Glass inside probably isn't going to make it go away, It would need some sort of structure to eliminate the flex in that area all together. without the added structure you can't get those cracks to stop re-appearing in the gel (I don't care how good the glass/Patch guy is). Once the original integrity of the gel skin has been compromised it's almost impossible to make it go away unless you can stop the flexing.

[need for speed]

just sat under mine for 20 mins... and in the engine room.. looks fine no issues...

[gcarter]

Carl, you probably remember I mentioned filling the void under the stringer.
While looking at your b ottom pictures, I noticed again the crack is under the outboard side of the stringer.
It could be that, since there're "shelves" over the outboard side of the newer hulls, there is no addiitonal reinforcement added there and the flexing occuring in the thinner outboard panel is cracking because of it.
It might be difficult to remove the "shelves", but it would be easy to reinforce the outboard side w/a radius and additional layup like the inboard side.

[DonziJon]

Carl: Those holes at the ends of the stringers are "Limber Holes". They are there to allow water to drain from outboard of the stringers (up hill) to drain down to the center, The only problem with those holes is IF they are not sealed. If they are not sealed then water can get in to the stringers and ROT the core....IF it's WOOD. John

[mike o]

Carl: Those holes at the ends of the stringers are "Limber Holes". They are there to allow water to drain from outboard of the stringers (up hill) to drain down to the center, The only problem with those holes is IF they are not sealed. If they are not sealed then water can get in to the stringers and ROT the core....IF it's WOOD. John.....Well about (foam)... It will (moisture) ruin the foam stringers too. Closed cell foam will absorb water over time into the closed part of the cell. In cold climates the water freezes in the cells and ruins the foam. It turns powder-ish and will delaminate.:frown: Its gotta stay dry toooooo.:wink:

[Carl C]

Carl: Those holes at the ends of the stringers are "Limber Holes". They are there to allow water to drain from outboard of the stringers (up hill) to drain down to the center, The only problem with those holes is IF they are not sealed. If they are not sealed then water can get in to the stringers and ROT the core....IF it's WOOD. John


.....Well about (foam)... It will (moisture) ruin the foam stringers too. Closed cell foam will absorb water over time into the closed part of the cell. In cold climates the water freezes in the cells and ruins the foam. It turns powder-ish and will delaminate.:frown: Its gotta stay dry toooooo.:wink:

I didn't think that looked like a good idea. I guess I should stick some extra resin in there. I'll call Donzi tomorrow, I don't really want to tow this boat to Florida in the winter.:crossfing::nilly: I need to talk to the guys at Donzi.........I can't try to second guess their fix.

[DonziJon]

I would be much LESS concerned about stringer core getting "wetted" (as opposed to stringers getting soaked). In a boat that is launched off a trailer, IF it gets wet, it has time to dry out during periods of inactivity sitting on the trailer.

Good ventilation when covered during any kind of storage is very important. Contrary to current practice, "Shrink Wrap" in the winter is NOT your boats friend. :bonk: Talk about condensation in your gas tank.....that ain't nothin. Just sayin. Yea Yea, I know..put some vents in the wrap. Ineffective to start with..AND Nobody does it.

A boat left in the water at a dock or mooring is Another Story, because it never drys out if there's a little water sloshing around in the bilge ALL the time. The bilge pump Never gets all the water. In my Minx, I estimate the water left after electric pumping, is probably almost a bucket. John

[gold-n-rod]

Good ventilation when covered during any kind of storage is very important. Contrary to current practice, "Shrink Wrap" in the winter is NOT your boats friend. :bonk: Talk about condensation in your gas tank.....that ain't nothin. Just sayin. Yea Yea, I know..put some vents in the wrap. Ineffective to start with..AND Nobody does it.

Some good info here. I am passing along the link for the info; no endorsement of the vendor is given or implied.

http://www.sailorsams.com/mall/dr-shrink-vents.asp

[Ghost]

I've had good luck with shrinkwrap so far, albeit with plenty of vents installed, and I loaded the boat up with dessicants in every possible compartment. (And the shrinkwrap didn't touch the awlgrip, just the rubrail.) Knock wood.

[DonziJon]

Some good info here. I am passing along the link for the info; no endorsement of the vendor is given or implied.
http://www.sailorsams.com/mall/dr-shrink-vents.asp

Now THERE'S a idea worth considering. "Powered Vents". I'm thinking even low voltage continously powered....maybe on a timer, or "Humidistat" controlled, on house (120vac) power... Vs. Solar. Solar may not be as good as one would hope.. up in snow country where the sun never gets High enough above the horizon in winter, or out bright enough, long enough. John

[DonziJon]

I've had good luck with shrinkwrap so far, albeit with plenty of vents installed, and I loaded the boat up with desiccants in every possible compartment. (And the shrinkwrap didn't touch the awlgrip, just the rubrail.) Knock wood.

Desicants...."Silica Gel" works well until it becomes WET..which it will after awhile. However, IF you can get to the Silica Gel containers, and remove them from the boat periodically, you can put them in the oven and bake them dry and reuse them.

Silica Gel is dark BLUE, when it's DRY, and PINK when it's wet. Once it absorbs enough moisture (Pink) it will No Longer absorb any more and MUST be baked out. :yes: John

[CHACHI]

Now THERE'S a idea worth considering. "Powered Vents". I'm thinking even low voltage continously powered....maybe on a timer, or "Humidistat" controlled, on house (120vac) power... Vs. Solar. Solar may not be as good as one would hope.. up in snow country where the sun never gets High enough above the horizon in winter, or out bright enough, long enough. John
Where is MOP? He has a solar powered vent for his boat, works very good.

Ken

[mattyboy]

i always used a 20lb bag of cheap charcoal brickettes un opened but not sealed in plastic just in the paper bag placed in a plastic bin amazing the amount of moisture it absorbs and keeps the interior dry


to get this back on track i had a ton of stress cracks in the area of the strakes on my 16 including small gel pops but never had any structural issues what so ever. I cannot speak for this issue on the 22's as i have not seen it in person

Carl hope this works out for you and that the cracks that are appearing are just gel cracks like the ones i had

[Carl C]

I am working with Chuck Wagner at Donzi. I guess Rich Pagano has been gone for quite a while. I am supposed to take the boat to a glass shop and have them grind into a cracked area to look for air voids. That's what they think is wrong since the bilge seems to be crack free (although I can't be 100% that I didn't miss something). Anyway I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it in before Christmas. Hopefully it will all work out.

[RickSE]

...It would need some sort of structure to eliminate the flex in that area all together. without the added structure you can't get those cracks to stop re-appearing in the gel ...

Donzi's procedure puts structure in the boat. They add (2) stiffening members in the keel panel creating vertical faces halfway between the stringers and the keel. The procedure is a lot more then a just a patch. You can see the stiffening members in Carl's pictures, either side of the bilge pump.

[gcarter]

Maybe some of you missed the meaning of my prior post.
Donzi puts no extra material in the outboard bay because it's been covered over with a shelf.
If you look at Carl's pictures, the new crack in the bottom gel is OUTBOARD of the stringer.
So how does Donzi fix this type of crack?
It needs a radius in the outboard stringer/bottom joint. The existing seyup is a "hard point".

[RickSE]

George, I don't believe the problem is outboard of the stringers. The way my boat is layed up the inboard face of the stringer(s) sits directly over the outboard edge/radius of the inner lifting strake(s). Carl has the typical hairline running in the outboard radius of the inner strake.

I'm not an expert and I only state this from experience but I think Carl has something soft in the bottom of the boat, putty or voids. Or, the shop didn't completely grind out or terminate the original hairlines in the first place.

[Carl C]

I got the boat into the glass shop today. Probably looked funny towing like we were going boating or something:nilly:.

[Carl C]

Why do you tow with the outdrive down? Even though the boat stays in a garage it was damn cold when I raised the drive so I didn't want to risk cracking the bellows by raising it too high.

[fogducker III]

I think the cost of cracked bellows, even though very remote possibility, is WAY cheaper than replacing an Imco lower............:confused::garfield::yes:

[DonziJon]

CARL: Is Donzi picking up the tab or is this out of Your Wollet? Just wondering. John

[Carl C]

CARL: Is Donzi picking up the tab or is this out of Your Wollet? Just wondering. John It is under warranty. They will grind into the cracks to check for voids, then fill any voids and repair and re-gel the bottom. If they don't find voids then I don't know what Donzi will want to do. I'm only posting this here because others have had the same problem and may be interested. BTW, the drive is plenty high. There was at least a foot of clearance.

[gold-n-rod]

Carl, why are you wearing a bathing suit in January?!?!?!?!? :shocking: :nilly:

[DonziJon]

Carl, why are you wearing a bathing suit in January?!?!?!?!? :shocking: :nilly:

Is it a SPEEDO? Just sayin. :lookaroun: John

[DonziJon]

It is under warranty. They will grind into the cracks to check for voids, then fill any voids and repair and re-gel the bottom. If they don't find voids then I don't know what Donzi will want to do. I'm only posting this here because others have had the same problem and may be interested. BTW, the drive is plenty high. There was at least a foot of clearance.

Carl: I agree: The drive is plenty high for a short drive. Glad to hear Donzi is stepping up...AND you don't have to drag the boat down to Florida. John

[mike o]

It is under warranty. They will grind into the cracks to check for voids, then fill any voids and repair and re-gel the bottom. If they don't find voids then I don't know what Donzi will want to do. I'm only posting this here because others have had the same problem and may be interested. BTW, the drive is plenty high. There was at least a foot of clearance........get - her - done.:yes: Good luck

[Carl C]

The shop came in with a really high estimate of $3,700 to repair the cracks. It seems they are trying to take advantage of Donzi with this being warranty and all. Now I have to go get the boat back tomorrow and find another glass shop. I don't think taking it to the original shop is an option since things got real ugly there. They sublet the glasswork though and maybe I can get the name of their glass shop. Another option is to tow the boat to the factory. Do you guys think Donzi should help me with the fuel cost if I do that? I'm also concerned about this second repair actually correcting the problem and not having cracks show up again in 2 more years. I'm a little upset about this. What do you guys think I should do. Bite the bullet and tow it to the factory? I have the new truck but 2 round trips to Miami will take a lot of gas and put a lot of miles on the truck. I figure 4,000 miles when done and about $800-$1,000 in fuel cost plus a motel each trip. Help, pleeeease.:(

[boxy]

The shop came in with a really high estimate of $3,700 to repair the cracks. It seems they are trying to take advantage of Donzi with this being warranty and all. Now I have to go get the boat back tomorrow and find another glass shop. I don't think taking it to the original shop is an option since things got real ugly there. They sublet the glasswork though and maybe I can get the name of their glass shop. Another option is to tow the boat to the factory. Do you guys think Donzi should help me with the fuel cost if I do that? I'm also concerned about this second repair actually correcting the problem and not having cracks show up again in 2 more years. I'm a little upset about this. What do you guys think I should do. Bite the bullet and tow it to the factory? I have the new truck but 2 round trips to Miami will take a lot of gas and put a lot of miles on the truck. I figure 4,000 miles when done and about $800-$1,000 in fuel cost plus a motel each trip. Help, pleeeease.

If the shop it is at does good work, and Donzi OK's the work order, why would you care what the final bill is?

Them potentially trying to gouge Donzi is between Donzi and them.

[Donziweasel]

If the shop it is at does good work, and Donzi OK's the work order, why would you care what the final bill is?

Them potentially trying to gouge Donzi is between Donzi and them.

I agree. What is more important to you, not Donzi, getting the boat fixed or the price? Let Donzi fight it out with them.

BTW, if you think Donzi is going to foot your fuel bill for towing it to Sarasota, I seriously doubt it. By then, with the fuel, it would probably cost the same.

Carl, just get it fixed where it is, you have been fighting this problem for years.

[Carl C]

MadPoodle, thanks, I was hoping you would offer advice. I will contact Trueser. Guys, Donzi will only approve up to about $1,500 so the estimate will not fly. I would have to pay the difference. I tend to agree that the estimate is way high. Should it go to Florida though just to be sure it is done for good? Sarasota isn't much closer.

[boxy]

MadPoodle, thanks, I was hoping you would offer advice. I will contact Trueser. Guys, Donzi will only approve up to about $1,500 so the estimate will not fly. I would have to pay the difference. I tend to agree that the estimate is way high. Should it go to Florida though just to be sure it is done for good? Sarasota isn't much closer. I edited the regret thing out.
Ahhh, that makes sense now.

If you go to Florida, try to time it around event, either going down or coming back.

[Ghost]

You absolutely shouldn't have to bother, but this is crying out for a trip to sunny FL. Let the Donzi folks do it themselves, and have some quality beach time in the middle of this stinkin' cold winter. Best of luck--I really hope something works out and takes care of that boat. Gotta love the yellow 22C, it's a beauty.

[MOP]

Where is MOP? He has a solar powered vent for his boat, works very good.

Ken

A little late getting in here Ken! Funny you brought that up, I went with an even better idea. I have to store outside on the trailer, this year I did away with the wood frame for the canvas. I made up a new support using 4" PVC tubing the center section is pipe with hundreds of holes, the ends have elbows that drop down to short sections of pipe with the ends cut in a severe angle one facing forward and one facing aft to catch as much air as possible. The boat is stored in a breeze way so I get a ton of air flow, I still have the solar powered tube under the canvas. About a week after covering it I stuck my finger in the transom drain as I knew I had a little water in the bilge from draining stuff, it was dusty dry which me happy. I one facing forward and one facing aft, I remember when we first started using shrink warp at the yard, that first year we ruined two interiors. And as mentioned above many a paint job has blistered from it, there is a 16 that I found that the gel is all blistered under the wrap. You need to be some careful venting that stuff, I will stick with tarps which work as well and are some cheaper!

Phil

[Carl C]

Ahhh, that makes sense now.

If you go to Florida, try to time it around event, either going down or coming back. I need to get it done now before the shops get busy and so I don't miss any of our short boating season. I'll make some phone calls tomorrow.

[boxy]

Go down now, and make sure they have it done in time to pick it up and head to Lake Cumberland for the AOTH. You're back in MI before the season starts ..... :pimp::pimp:

[mike o]

Well, I dont know where the $1500 figure comes from WITHOUT seeing the damage is inside and out and the engine has to be removed and all the work grinding to look for voids in the laminate ect (per Mr. Carters repair methods). If where me as a manufacture who deals with this stuff (Kinda), As I mention before and Don Zeladore also added... This between you the dealer and donzi. This 3rd party stuff while the boat is still covered dosent make sense..... So Id bring the boat to a dealer or haul the boat to donzi and make sure the NICE boat ya got is fixed right forever + ever. Im sure some southern donzi brothers + sisters will lend a hand..........Look at it as a PARTY- road -:yes::yes::yes::yes:-trip ...............Ill tell ya $1500 aint much $ at $75/per HR WITH THE PRICE OF RESIN and $3500 aint to high. Grinding away in the engine compartment:nilly: aint fun.:yes::yes::yes::yes:. Again good luck....Michael..P.s, Pm Air 22, his 22 in the shop getting beefed for phonies.

[Carl C]

Carl, doesn't the engine need to come out?


Well, I dont know where the $1500 figure comes from WITHOUT seeing the damage is inside and out and the engine has to be removed and all the work grinding to look for voids in the laminate ect

To me the engine room work seems to be OK. Donzi just wants to grind into the cracks to look for voids, then fill the voids and refinish the bottom.

[farmer tx]

Madpoodle is talking about Tom McNabb.He worked on two of Truesers boats, did the structural work on my criterion and is an authorized Donzi warranty center.

250 Calhoun ST.
Morris,IL. 60540
815 941 1546

[gcarter]

I wish I could say something.....but w/builders, warranties, and legalities, I won't.

[BUIZILLA]

Carl, you really only have 2 choices at this point....

A) take it to Tom McNabb or B) take it to the factory, either trip will be at your expense and inconvenience....

there is no *C* scenario

PS - I would take it to Tom

[Carl C]

Madpoodle is talking about Tom McNabb.He worked on two of Truesers boats, did the structural work on my criterion and is an authorized Donzi warranty center.

250 Calhoun ST.
Morris,IL. 60540
815 941 1546

Thanks for that info.


I wish I could say something.....but w/builders, warranties, and legalities, I won't.

You could send a PM.


Carl, you really only have 2 choices at this point....

A) take it to Tom Mcnabb or B) take it to the factory, either trip will be at your expense and inconvenience....

there is no *C* scenario

PS - I would take it to Tom

Scenario C) Instead of letting Donzi throw what may be a band-aid fix on the boat to get it through the warranty period, I run the boat as is this season until the bottom really starts to break up, which I think it will, then I drop the boat off at the factory this fall after the boating season is over to be fixed properly once and for all. The warranty expires in May 2010.

If the Morris Illinois shop is an authorized factory warranty repair center would Donzi have to approve their estimate for repairs. Or maybe the shop would cooperate with Donzi to do cosmetic repairs to the cracks which will probably last one season and get the boat out of warranty. While a lot closer than Sarasota, Morris is a long drive. I don't want to do this only to have Donzi once again say that the estimate is too high.

With this record of problems, If the cracking continues soon after the warranty expires would Donzi still be legally obligated to fix the boat?

There could be an unrepairable defect in this hull due to several possibilities including the switch to foam stringers, the wider stringer spacing, the lay-up schedule or defective materials or workmanship.

Step one will be to try and get the boat back home today.

TIA

[mattyboy]

Carl,
have you contacted donzi about a claim yet?? be careful not returning it for a timely fix may negate the warranty. they can say well we were notified in Jan of 09 and the boat was not returned within the time frame for repair or something like yes the little cracks are our fault but now cause you ran the boat the big cracks are on you !!!! happens all the time in my business.

I am not sure I get your thought train, a shop that comes highly recomended is in cohoots with Donzi??? then you are worried that the next fix which has not been done yet will not work because it is structural defect but you'll go boating on a boat that is not fixed for a season??? if you are that worried about get it fixed, if you are not worried about it ask yourself does the warranty cover picking the boat off of the bottom of lake MI ???? have it checked out make sure they are the normal stress cracks until it is checked you don't know

[mattyboy]

really, i don't articulate myself in such a manner do I





I do

i do


dems da berries

[Carl C]

The Morris shop is just a damn good shop, that will not fix it half ass..

Any comments on your other questions would simply be conjecture by the person responding.

Scott, thanks for the advice. I will try to get the boat back today. I will call the Morris shop monday to see how their schedule is and I will call Mr. Wagner at Donzi to get his approval on that. At least I will be able to see the Windy City on the way home.

Mattyboy, you're right about not letting the problem go now even though in a way I would like to and see what happens.

Matty, the lighthouses are back.:)

Bear with me guys. Try to realize how frustrating this is. I paid $52,500 for this boat and the hull started breaking up after a season and half....:(

[Donziweasel]

Carl, your hull is not "breaking up". It has stress cracks. Let's keep it real.

[mattyboy]

Scott, thanks for the advice. I will try to get the boat back today. I will call the Morris shop monday to see how their schedule is and I will call Mr. Wagner at Donzi to get his approval on that. At least I will be able to see the Windy City on the way home.

Mattyboy, you're right about not letting the problem go now even though in a way I would like to and see what happens.

Matty, the lighthouses are back.:)

Bear with me guys. Try to realize how frustrating this is. I paid $52,500 for this boat and the hull started breaking up after a season and half....:(



yeah well I still can't see the light.

DW has a point in any issue there are the two extremes and usually the truth of the matter lies somewhere between.

seriously my 40 year old boat had a ton of stress cracks it got more every year, now the boat is being beat on extremely hard and it has not failed the new owner did manage to separate the 5200 bond around the deck and a few tabs I put in to secure the deck to the hull. its a fiberglass boat it flexes
gel pops and spider cracks come with the territory, just have it looked at think positive

[BigGrizzly]

I am with Matty on this one. I fixed all of them on my Corsican, The deck ones are showing up in exactly the same places. I ground and glassed etc. I think I fixed it in 1995/6, my mind is getting into one big blur at this point.

[DonziJon]

Nobody has even mentioned Ultra Sound. Wouldn't it be pretty easy to Scan the area with Ultra Sound to see IF there are voids. It's Non Invasive and would save a lot of mental stress, and maybe a lot of expensive and needless work. :confused: John

[gcarter]

It's been my experience that there're very few voids in these boats.
I don't believe voids are the issue. It's how they were built.
I mean there're choices to be made in how the boat goes toegther, i.e., methods of layup, schedules, etc. Also characteristics of construction that hinders repairing easily, or correctly.
That's probably as far as I want to go on thius subject.

[BigGrizzly]

Donzijon, I Have a friend who's wife is a rolling ultrasound tech. We did try it on my Criterion because I had a rib separation. The glass is too dense for a medical unit and doesn't show up well. Maybe a more powerful unit would work well. BTW the separation was only superficial.

[Carl C]

Carl, your hull is not "breaking up". It has stress cracks. Let's keep it real.

I'm not so sure about that. There was a build defect that required the installation of a mini stringer and filet kit. No it is not breaking up but if I had left it alone it surely would have. The cracks are not superficial stress cracks, they go completely through the hull. At least the first time they did. What is happening now I'm not sure but the cracks have returned.


It's been my experience that there're very few voids in these boats.
I don't believe voids are the issue. It's how they were built.
I mean there're choices to be made in how the boat goes toegther, i.e., methods of layup, schedules, etc. Also characteristics of construction that hinders repairing easily, or correctly.
That's probably as far as I want to go on thius subject.

My concern also.

Matty, why did you turn off the pics? Dial up:eek:?

Going to call the shop now.

I guess the ultrasound thing would be up to the shop it ends up at.

[Rootsy]

Carl,

If you can get no satisfaction on this issue, with one warranty repair under your belt already, related to the same problem... I'd give Mr. Cox a jingle....

[mattyboy]

Carl,
really no dial up I have a bonded t-1 3meg really i am sick of light houses and sailboats ;) the board just looks cleaner and easier to browse:yes:

[Carl C]

Carl,

If you can get no satisfaction on this issue, with one warranty repair under your belt already, related to the same problem... I'd give Mr. Cox a jingle....

Hopefully it will work out but just in case, who is Mr. Cox.

Matty, you missed the infamous "booby face" then, and other cool avatars and sigs.

Still waiting for a call back from the shop.

[mattyboy]

who is Mr. Cox.



the lighthouse keeper :tongue: if i know rootsy at all i would say it is the state attorney or consumer affairs advocate




sorry i missed the boooby face

[SilverBack]

the lighthouse keeper :tongue: if i know rootsy at all i would say it is the state attorney or consumer affairs advocate




sorry i missed the boooby face

Count yourself as one of the lucky ones....I have scaring on my eyeballs now!!





Carl...I think that they use all of the good layup guys on the ZX and the ZR boats!!!! No cracks....J/K

[Carl C]

Mike Cox is Michigan's Attorney General. It's way premature to talk about that now. I'm hoping for a good outcome. Still waiting for that phone call. I have a feeling that phone calls are being made right now! If I don't get the boat back within 2 hours I won't get it until tuesday, which is OK if they keep it inside.

[Carl C]

I talked to the glass guy himself and the estimate was for only cosmetic repair of the cracks. It was high because the work would be immaculate since the boat is still pretty much in new condition. He commented on how the bottom was perfect, which it is. I will pick up the boat tuesday. Now I am looking at 3 options:

1. McNabbs

2. Pier 57

3. Donzi factory which is what the glass guy recommends because he said that if after 2 repair attempts, the second being by the factory, the problem recurs, then I would be in a better position to expect the entire hull replaced.

Right now I'm waiting for a call back from Mr. McNabb. Would appreciate any input. Towing to the factory would be costly but may be the wisest move. Any ideas? I appreciate the help and support.

[Ghost]

3. Donzi factory which is what the glass guy recommends because he said that if after 2 repair attempts, the second being by the factory, the problem recurs, then I would be in a better position to expect the entire hull replaced.

Bingo, if there is any reasonable way to do it, like turn it into a vacation. Not sure what the real prospects are of them being able to cure it or whether they would ever replace the hull, but this seems like the best chance. If I *could* go that route, I would.

(As an aside, let me say I am one of the people who likes the lighthouses. And now with a new angle--I'm also seeing them as hilariously like the schlong drawings in Superbad. Keep 'em coming.)

[Carl C]

[quote=Carl C;491584]3. Donzi factory which is what the glass guy recommends because he said that if after 2 repair attempts, the second being by the factory, the problem recurs, then I would be in a better position to expect the entire hull replaced.[quote]

Bingo, if there is any reasonable way to do it, like turn it into a vacation. Not sure what the real prospects are of them being able to cure it or whether they would ever replace the hull, but this seems like the best chance. If I *could* go that route, I would.

(As an aside, let me say I am one of the people who likes the lighthouses. And now with a new angle--I'm also seeing them as hilariously like the schlong drawings in Superbad. Keep 'em coming.) Thanks I'm still working on it. Lots of phone calls. The 2 lighthouses are the old range lights on Lake St. Clair. I believe they go back to the mid 1800s. The rear range light has been restored, the front one not yet. These lights are very much treasured by Lake St. Clair boaters. Gotta go to work now. I talked with Tom McNabb and he will consult with Mr. Wagner at Donzi. He thinks the whole rear of the hull may need to be covered with glass cloth or matt and the bottom blueprinted.

[BUIZILLA]

Carl.... you don't know what problems are....

InterMedia Outdoors Forums: Southeast--General Info: What happened to that boat? (http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=827174)

[Donziweasel]

Holy Chit! Jim, you think this will put Bertram under like the one guy posted?

[Carl C]

Carl.... you don't know what problems are....

InterMedia Outdoors Forums: Southeast--General Info: What happened to that boat? (http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=827174) OK, at work now on the lap top. Yeah that Bertram looks a little worse but I wonder what mine would look like had I not had it fixed and just continued to hammer away at the bottom. Now I am just waiting for a call back from "Captain Nabby's".

[zelatore]

Carl.... you don't know what problems are....

InterMedia Outdoors Forums: Southeast--General Info: What happened to that boat? (http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=827174)

Good Lord! That's the worst damage I've ever seen from a non-impact.

Makes me wonder exactly what's been going on at Bertram since Ferreti bought them...

(still, they never were a Viking or Hat to start with...:wink:)

[Marlin275]

Carl.... you don't know what problems are....

InterMedia Outdoors Forums: Southeast--General Info: What happened to that boat? (http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=827174)

Bertram used to mean bulletproof.

[Ghost]

Bertram used to mean bulletproof.

Now what, "water soluble?"

[gcarter]

I see a couple of things.....
Of course, if you try hard enough, you can break anything.

[gcarter]

Did any of you see these on another site?

[zelatore]

Now what, "water soluble?"
:rlol::rlol::rlol:

[RickSE]

I'd like to add a few comments.

Be patient, Donzi will come through.

I decided to take my boat back to the factory (over 4,000 miles) because I felt, who better to fix it then the people who built it. They did what I expected, structurally the boat is great, cosmetics could have been a little better but the structure is what really matters.

Mine developed minor issues after the factory procedure so I called Donzi back. They listened and took care of the problem. Long story short, it takes time, my boat is done, I got reimbursed and I'm happy.

Thank You Donzi Marine for standing behind your product.

[osur866]

I'd like to add a few comments.

Be patient, Donzi will come through.

I decided to take my boat back to the factory (over 4,000 miles) because I felt, who better to fix it then the people who built it. They did what I expected, structurally the boat is great, cosmetics could have been a little better but the structure is what really matters.

Mine developed minor issues after the factory procedure so I called Donzi back. They listened and took care of the problem. Long story short, it takes time, my boat is done, I got reimbursed and I'm happy.

Thank You Donzi Marine for standing behind your product. Rick well said, I too want to thank Donzi Marine, mine also went back to the factory and I'm also very happy with what Donzi did with no follow up issues, take the boat back to Donzi and let them fix it! I believe mine was the first 18 to go back and I can't say enough postive things on how I was treated by Donzi. However, my dealer was a different story all together. My .02 Steve

[CHACHI]

Rick well said, I too want to thank Donzi Marine, mine also went back to the factory and I'm also very happy with what Donzi did with no follow up issues, take the boat back to Donzi and let them fix it! I believe mine was the first 18 to go back and I can't say enough postive things on how I was treated by Donzi. However, my dealer was a different story all together. My .02 Steve

Back to factory..a novel concept and a no brainer.

Ken

[BigGrizzly]

Any excuse for a factory tour.

[osur866]

Back to factory..a novel concept and a no brainer.

Ken
Exactly!!! Steve

[RickSE]

An outside shop is not a bad thing. I used one for the follow up procedure, but you gotta have confidence that they're going to fix it right.

[osur866]

When I had mine done it was just after the big ice storm that took out many docks at LOTO, which is or was my closest dealer and shops, and they had parking lots full of boats and cruisers missing bridges and some even sunk, from the docks caving in on the tops of boats, that they where repairing. Dealers and glass shops where hiring people from miles and miles away to repair them! I know of a few that just bought a new boat for fear of shotty work and or the long long waits that where going on at the time. I did not feel good about this and felt that there was no one better to repair my boat than the ones that built it, so I entrusted Donzi to do the repair. No it was no Sunday drive to Sota from KC, 1348 miles one way to be exact, but I still think I made the right choice by doing so and would it again if had to. And yes Grizz I did get a tour of the factory while there. :biggrin.: IMO the only way to go is take the boat back to Donzi and let them fix it. Steve

[Carl C]

The factory would be an option but not a very attractive one. Now I am waiting for a call back from Mr. McNabb. It sounds like he will not do a half ass cosmetic repair just like you guys said.

[zelatore]

Although I have no direct experience with Donzi or small boat builders in general, I do wonder if too much 'mystic' isn't being put on the idea of taking the boat to the factory.

Yes, they built the thing and would know specifics like lay-up schedule. But they are not a repair facility and wouldn't normally have as much experience with repair as construction. They are two different subjects, and a good repair shop might well do a better job than the factory just on the basis of having done more of this type work. I suspect that along with the fact they just aren't set up for repair work may have some bearing on why they didn't express a great interest in the boat returning to them.

On the other hand, it is possible the factory guys will have seen more of this specific failure (implying this is indeed a common situation) and would be able to make the repair based on past experience. However, that opens the debate about just how many boats have suffered this issue and further, how many have gone back to the factory for the repair work.

And though we all hope it doesn't come to this, should you continue to have issue with the boat after this repair, having had it done at the factory eliminates the possibility of them arguing about the quality of the work done by the third party and gives additional weight to your demands for a new hull.

[SilverBack]

How many people on the board are employees of Donzi? How many people have had these problems? This sounds like it is not all that uncommon.

[Carl C]

And though we all hope it doesn't come to this, should you continue to have issue with the boat after this repair, having had it done at the factory eliminates the possibility of them arguing about the quality of the work done by the third party and gives additional weight to your demands for a new hull.

Yup.


How many people on the board are employees of Donzi? How many people have had these problems? This sounds like it is not all that uncommon.

It's been discussed here quite a bit. It seems to be mostly limited to 22Cs of around 2005 vintage. The factory says it is an issue with harmonics of the 496 HO. Other theories are the wider spacing of the stringers, faulty lay-up method or materials, stringers mover directly above the strakes, etc. The early 2000 or so 496 HOs have the same stringer spacing and no problems. Now I think it may be related to the switch to foam stringers. The cracks are directly below the motor mounts on the bottom. Yes I know this is all guess work on my part so give me a break. Regardless of the cause, something is going on with these boats. If the factory kit solves the problem for good and the cracks are repaired permanently I will be satisfied.

[SilverBack]

So it is one year with one engine setup that is mostly at fault? Sounds like a factory recall situation to me....too bad you don't live in Louisiana...they have law that gives them limited chances at fixing it and then they have to buy it back or replace it with a new one. I guess that Donzi does not have a dealer there anyway though.

[Carl C]

Silverback, talk of recalls, lawsuits, phone calls, etc is only going to get ugly. Kind of the way the tab thread exploded. I like my boat a lot and I hope it gets fixed correctly so that it goes the distance. Another problem is that now I can't add more power as I had planned.

[SilverBack]

My Nissan Armada had a recall on it before I had it for a week. It was brand new and the sales guy called after I had it for about 4 days and told me the brakes had to be replaced. I was not trying to start anything!! I was jsut saying that if you build enough stuff chances are that sooner or later something might not work out right. A supplier could have supplied them with a bad part ...like Nissan had happen...It means a lot what you do about it when that happens. That is all I was talking about!

[Carl C]

My Nissan Armada had a recall on it before I had it for a week. It was brand new and the sales guy called after I had it for about 4 days and told me the brakes had to be replaced. I was not trying to start anything!! I was jsut saying that if you build enough stuff chances are that sooner or later something might not work out right. A supplier could have supplied them with a bad part ...like Nissan had happen...It means a lot what you do about it when that happens. That is all I was talking about! I understand. I also know that I must be careful what I post here. If the problem isn't fixed permanently on the second try then we'll take it from there.

[DonziJon]

Carl: Is there a LEMON LAW Option in Michigan?? Some states have it for Automobiles. :lookaroun: John

[RickSE]

So it is one year with one engine setup that is mostly at fault? ...

No, not true, approx 2002-2006, HO or bigger powered boats. The issue is somewhat limited and develops over time. It also is fixable and the Donzi procedure addresses the issue when done correctly.

Zelatore, Donzi has a specific Warranty/Custom-Racing Shop, away from the mfg line, that they set-up several years ago. From what I've heard the main focus of the Warranty Shop is to address "local" S.E. warranty issues. From time to time they will bring in non-local boats for warranty work when they can; transportation is usually at the owner's expense. The biggest disadvantage I saw with the factory shop was that they will not give you a lot of information unless you really push it or know someone inside; you typically just get the "we fixed it" response. You just have to trust them to do it right if you go there.

[smokediver]

good luck Carl . they were nothing but rude , short , and real pompous a-holes to me ... But I can straight up tell you they lost a few buyers looking at their govt. line ....

[zelatore]

Zelatore, Donzi has a specific Warranty/Custom-Racing Shop, away from the mfg line, that they set-up several years ago. From what I've heard the main focus of the Warranty Shop is to address "local" S.E. warranty issues. From time to time they will bring in non-local boats for warranty work when they can; transportation is usually at the owner's expense. The biggest disadvantage I saw with the factory shop was that they will not give you a lot of information unless you really push it or know someone inside; you typically just get the "we fixed it" response. You just have to trust them to do it right if you go there.

Didn't know that, but I guess it's no big surprise. I know some of the yacht builders have factory service/repair facilities in the SE ... being out here on the west coast I don't have a lot of dealing with that sort of thing.

I would have a tough time with the 'it's fixed' line. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

[Rootsy]

Excuse me for being curt but.... You have a boat under warranty. That has had one warranty repair due to structural failure.. Now you have fractures, at least in the outer laminates that are visible in the same are. Donzi tells you to take it to a local glass shop to be looked at and repaired and they only authorize $1500? The shop wants $3500+ so back home you go? Now it is YOUR responsibility to truck the MOFO half away across the GD country to be repaired, at your expense?

BS... Call a lawyer... Have the lawyer contact Donzi... DONZI should take care of all shipping and repair. It is their responsibility. That's why they offered that thing called a warranty. Screw me once.. shame on you... screw me twice...

If that bottom ends up being fractured through to the inside... I wouldn't even waste my time having it repaired... Demand a new hull.. with the changes completed at time of layup.

[Carl C]

Excuse me for being curt but.... You have a boat under warranty. That has had one warranty repair due to structural failure.. Now you have fractures, at least in the outer laminates that are visible in the same are. Donzi tells you to take it to a local glass shop to be looked at and repaired and they only authorize $1500? The shop wants $3500+ so back home you go? Now it is YOUR responsibility to truck the MOFO half away across the GD country to be repaired, at your expense?

BS... Call a lawyer... Have the lawyer contact Donzi... DONZI should take care of all shipping and repair. It is their responsibility. That's why they offered that thing called a warranty. Screw me once.. shame on you... screw me twice...

If that bottom ends up being fractured through to the inside... I wouldn't even waste my time having it repaired... Demand a new hull.. with the changes completed at time of layup. Rootsy, thank you for having the guts to call a spade a spade but I hope it doesn't come to that.

[gold-n-rod]

Rootsy, thank you for having the guts to call a spade a spade.

Harrumph, I'm old enough to remember when spade was a pejorative term. Funny how language changes. It used to make me feel gay to think about humorous and ironic words... but not any more!!! :shocking: :bonk:

[BigGrizzly]

I do not want to be a wet blanket, but, under warranty laws they are not under any obligation to tell you anything. One other small note,not that contributed to anything, you did in fact put on a non stock lower unit. This is has been in print. At this point lemon laws are void if they see it that way. Just hope things turn out well.

[zelatore]

... DONZI should take care of all shipping and repair. It is their responsibility. That's why they offered that thing called a warranty.

I don't have a copy of a Donzi warranty, but I'd bet any money it says specifically that it is the owner's responsibility to transport the the boat for repair. EVERY boat warranty I've dealt with (I've worked with 10 different brands as a new dealer) specifically states the boat shall be returned to 'an authorized repair facility' by the owner. Normally that's the dealer, although sometimes it's an independent boat yard/facility with approval of the factory.

So while it would be nice if Donzi covered shipping costs, and you could even argue that they 'should' as good will, by no means would they be obligated to do so.

Again, this is with the caveat that I haven't read Donzi's warranty specifically. I'm simply basing this on my experience in the industry in general.

[osur866]

Zelatore is 100% correct on shipping, cleary says in the warranty your responsiable for shipping. Steve

[Carl C]

A lot of this talk is premature. What needs to be determined is if the cracks are cosmetic or an indication of a continuing deficiency in the hull integrity. I think the boat should be operated as is for this coming season to see what happens. If they don't get much worse then I'd probably be OK with a surface repair job. If they really open up then I think the entire hull should be replaced. I'm still working on this and will go get the boat back tomorrow. I'd really like to see pics of the engine room if anyone has a 2007-09 model 22C.

[bill44]

Carl I've been following your problems and of course all the "B.S." you've been subject to. Would it benefit you to ask "Jamie" at "Lakeside Restorations" for some advice regarding the problem, or for that matter trailer your boat to his shop for the repair with "Donzi's" blessing. People on this forum "rave" about his workmanship, plus the distance from your plce to his has got to be quite a bit shorter I would think.
Just a suggestion!

Bailey

[zelatore]

Carl I've been following your problems and of course all the "B.S." you've been subject to. Would it benefit you to ask "Jamie" at "Lakeside Restorations" for some advice regarding the problem, or for that matter trailer your boat to his shop for the repair with "Donzi's" blessing. People on this forum "rave" about his workmanship, plus the distance from your plce to his has got to be quite a bit shorter I would think.
Just a suggestion!

Bailey

Yeah, shorter but not warmer!

[Carl C]

Carl I've been following your problems and of course all the "B.S." you've been subject to. Would it benefit you to ask "Jamie" at "Lakeside Restorations" for some advice regarding the problem, or for that matter trailer your boat to his shop for the repair with "Donzi's" blessing. People on this forum "rave" about his workmanship, plus the distance from your plce to his has got to be quite a bit shorter I would think.
Just a suggestion!

Bailey I appreciate the response but the shop I am looking at (McNabbs) is about 350 miles each way. That's a lot closer than Sarasota! Like I said, we need to determine what is going on. I want my boat to last 20 years or more like the older ones do. Also, I had planned to repower this boat in a couple of years to run with the big boyz (well, maybe not Mr. X, he's beyond big) but i wanted to get this boat into the high 80s. Now I can't do that because it would for sure ruin any case I have if this hull fails in the future. It's a big pita but helps a lot to have you guys to talk to. I appreciate the PMs too. BTW, still waiting to hear back from McNabbs. I still like my idea of running it as is this season to see what happens. My warranty is good untill may-2010.

[Carl C]

Just an update: Mr. Wagner at Donzi has approved my boat going to McNabb's shop just west of Chicago. I have no doubt that the work will be to my satisfaction. As far as long term durability, I guess I will find out in time. While I appreciate all of the concern and support offered here I'd like to ask that we hold off on the talk of legal action, etc. I still really like my boat and I just hope that this repair fixes things once and for all. I hope to get it to Tom McNabb next week, weather permitting.:crossfing::crossfing::crossfing:

[DonziJon]

Carl you ARE on the Right Track. However.... I am concerned about one of your Lighthouses. It seems to be tilted LEFT. :lookaroun: Say it isn't so....John

[Carl C]

Carl you ARE on the Right Track. However.... I am concerned about one of your Lighthouses. It seems to be tilted LEFT. :lookaroun: Say it isn't so....John Those range lights were finished in 1859. The front one tilted bad almost immediately and was rebuilt in 1875. It tilted again and recently the crib was built to stabilize it. It's lantern is gone and it needs to be restored. I think they should leave it tilted. When you go around to the other side you will see that it is actually tilted to the right.

[Ghost]

When you go around to the other side you will see that it is actually tilted to the right.

"Those nails for da other side da house." :)

[Carl C]

"Those nails for da other side da house." :) Just the ones that are pointed at you.

[Donziweasel]

Also, I had planned to repower this boat in a couple of years to run with the big boyz

Carl, I understand your frustrations. Have been thier with busses, especailly one bus I named the "anti-christ".


One thing that caught my attention was you wanting to add more power. When you say "big boyz", I would take that as 600hp at minimum, probably more. With all the problems you have had with this hull, I am not sure this is a good idea or that this hull is a good candidate. You have had major problems with only 425 hp. nstead of a stringer repair back to stock, you would need to beef them up considerably. I mean, almost to the point of putting in a couple of tree trunks in there. You boat in some rough stuff on the big lakes.

My suggestion, if you want to run with the big boyz, get your hull fixed, sell it, and get a pre-2000 with hardly any hours. I know you have put a lot of time and money into your boat and it shows. Very nice, but, 1. The second you throw more power at it, there goes the warranty, 2. If you did ever really break up, it could kill you, 3. Your current hull has already been repaired once and is having trouble with he 425 hp, what happens with 700?

Good luck!

[gcarter]

And if you look at the last post on my thread, you'd have to ask yourself if the older hulls are any better.

[VetteLT193]

along the same lines as the last couple of posts, maybe it is worth spending some cash now to have the stringers beefed up while they are in there. The shop might get the money from Donzi and let you add to the pot to beef it up for future big power.

[RickSE]

And if you look at the last post on my thread, you'd have to ask yourself if the older hulls are any better.

Ditto, you beat me to it George.

Beefing up the stringers won't help the current issue but may help future stuff. My stringers are double thickness from the factory and it didn't help mine. The problem is the flex in the panel between the stringers and what's under or the lack of what's under the stringers.

On a side note, I supposedly have extra lay-up in my hull and although I had the same problem as some of the other 22's mine never got as bad as the others.

[Carl C]

My suggestion, if you want to run with the big boyz, get your hull fixed, sell it, and get a pre-2000 with hardly any hours. I know you have put a lot of time and money into your boat and it shows. Very nice, but, 1. The second you throw more power at it, there goes the warranty, 2. If you did ever really break up, it could kill you, 3. Your current hull has already been repaired once and is having trouble with he 425 hp, what happens with 700?

Good luck!


along the same lines as the last couple of posts, maybe it is worth spending some cash now to have the stringers beefed up while they are in there. The shop might get the money from Donzi and let you add to the pot to beef it up for future big power.

They are not doing any work in the engine room this time. They are just fixing the cracks on the bottom which are hopefully just superficial cracks returning. I should know by the end of this season if the problem is fixed for good. A repower will wait at least a couple of years. At that time I will beef up the engine room ala Mr. X but not as much (no vacuum bagging). I don't want to sell this boat. It is unique. I like it. It has the aluminum fairing and custom, opened up "cuddy" area. Also I owe more than it is worth. I am going to try to tow it to McNabbs tomorrow. Got to make some phone calls first. We will check out the Windy City on the way home.

Update: Tom McNabb is going to add a small "bulkhead" in front of the engine to further strengthen the hull and it is going to Morris, Illinois tomorrow.

[Greg Maier]

All of this talk of hull cracks made me curious. I spent the day grinding on the inside of the Blackhawk Hull (currently under restoration). I too had significant cracking in the gel between the stringers. The cracking was so bad that it looked like a jigsaw puzzle. Once I got the gel off, I could clearly see the cracks in the glass, as they were discolored, probably from water intrusion. Well, after a day with the grinder, I am 90% confident that the cracks don't go any deeper than the lightweight secondary layup that was laminated when the stringers were put in place. This lightweight secondary layup appears to be both mat and cloth. I carefully ground through this layer, just deep enough so I can see the heavy woven roving, and it doesn't seem like the cracks go any deeper, they simply dissapear. I havent removed the exterior gel, but there really are no cracks in the exterior. This was a relief, because the Blackhawk has been in some big water on the Chesapeake and after seeing the interior gel cracks, I was worried I had cracked the hull all the way through.
Also, I had a chance to get underneath the hull today with a straightedge. The last 3 feet of the Blackhawk hull only appears to have maybe 1/4 of an inch of rocker to it. I assumed the curvature would be more dramatic than this but it really isn't.

[Carl C]

All of this talk of hull cracks made me curious. I spent the day grinding on the inside of the Blackhawk Hull (currently under restoration). I too had significant cracking in the gel between the stringers. The cracking was so bad that it looked like a jigsaw puzzle. Once I got the gel off, I could clearly see the cracks in the glass, as they were discolored, probably from water intrusion. Well, after a day with the grinder, I am 90% confident that the cracks don't go any deeper than the lightweight secondary layup that was laminated when the stringers were put in place. This lightweight secondary layup appears to be both mat and cloth. I carefully ground through this layer, just deep enough so I can see the heavy woven roving, and it doesn't seem like the cracks go any deeper, they simply dissapear. I havent removed the exterior gel, but there really are no cracks in the exterior. This was a relief, because the Blackhawk has been in some big water on the Chesapeake and after seeing the interior gel cracks, I was worried I had cracked the hull all the way through.
Also, I had a chance to get underneath the hull today with a straightedge. The last 3 feet of the Blackhawk hull only appears to have maybe 1/4 of an inch of rocker to it. I assumed the curvature would be more dramatic than this but it really isn't. I should talk to Tom McNabb tomorrow to see what he found. You guys were right, it sounds like he won't half-ass fix the boat. I'm glad the blackhawk wasn't too bad and hope mine isn't either. I would have expected more rocker too since they make such a big deal about that.

[Greg Maier]

Carl,

Unless your hull is laid up differently from mine, I think you will be fine and have only superficial cracks. After spending some quality time with my transom today, I really don't see how anything, short of a collision, could crack that glass. It is very thick. I don't think the problem is the hull layup, I think it is the lamination that they put over the stringers.

[breeze400]

Carl, I have been reading over this post the hour or so. Although you are right to have concerns about your hull. I would feel confident that if you have any further issues, that DONZI would replace your hull. Through my experience. I have A 1989 R-23 with A very rare omc 460 king cobra setup. This was not an option when DONZI manufactured these boats. They however pushed out about 500 of these set-ups out the door before being forced to stop manufacturing this set-up. I have not had A problem with hull issues. Living in western NY, (Buffalo area) there were A lot of these boats sold here due to there being A DONZI dealer here in the late 80's Almost all of the 1988 and some of the 1989 R-21, R-23, and R-25s went back to the factory for new hulls due to cracking issues. I have not heard of any complaints from there owners. So if you have further issues after this repair I would take it back to DONZI for repair!

Sam :yes::yes::yes:

[gcarter]

All of this talk of hull cracks made me curious. I spent the day grinding on the inside of the Blackhawk Hull (currently under restoration). I too had significant cracking in the gel between the stringers. The cracking was so bad that it looked like a jigsaw puzzle. Once I got the gel off, I could clearly see the cracks in the glass, as they were discolored, probably from water intrusion. Well, after a day with the grinder, I am 90% confident that the cracks don't go any deeper than the lightweight secondary layup that was laminated when the stringers were put in place. This lightweight secondary layup appears to be both mat and cloth. I carefully ground through this layer, just deep enough so I can see the heavy woven roving, and it doesn't seem like the cracks go any deeper, they simply dissapear. I havent removed the exterior gel, but there really are no cracks in the exterior. This was a relief, because the Blackhawk has been in some big water on the Chesapeake and after seeing the interior gel cracks, I was worried I had cracked the hull all the way through.
Also, I had a chance to get underneath the hull today with a straightedge. The last 3 feet of the Blackhawk hull only appears to have maybe 1/4 of an inch of rocker to it. I assumed the curvature would be more dramatic than this but it really isn't.
Greg, in this picture, you can see how the inside radius of the outside of the strake can crack....badly. I mean, the glass is broken all the way through the outer hull layup.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42868&d=1233631016

[JustMercMe]

Carl,
I also read this post on Thursday of last week and checked mine out this past weekend. Unfortunately mine has the same cracks....One single stess crack on the bottom....a couple of spidered stess cracks under the motor mount on one side. I'm a lot closer to Sarasota being right on the FL state line. Have you been in contact with anybody at Donzi? If so who do I need to speak with?

I do realize that stress cracks don't mean a whole lot and that every boat gets them eventually someplace.....Just seems these are in a vital place that failure would be critical.

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Greg Maier]

George,

The cracks/voids in my bilge under my engine looked very similiar to the cracks you have by your strake. But, once I got through the mat and cloth and down to the woven roving, they dissapear. I realize that yours went all the way through. My point was to reassure Carl that cracks may look bad in the gelcoat may not be so bad (all the way through the hull) once you grind them down. I stand behind my statement that the construction of the Blackhawk Hull (not including the rotten stringers and transom) seems substantial and in my relatively inexperienced opinion, would be hard to crack simply by pounding on waves.

Another interesting point was that my strakes were not filled with putty, but are hollow and not covered over with glass.

[Carl C]

Carl,
I also read this post on Thursday of last week and checked mine out this past weekend. Unfortunately mine has the same cracks....One single stess crack on the bottom....a couple of spidered stess cracks under the motor mount on one side. I'm a lot closer to Sarasota being right on the FL state line. Have you been in contact with anybody at Donzi? If so who do I need to speak with?

I do realize that stress cracks don't mean a whole lot and that every boat gets them eventually someplace.....Just seems these are in a vital place that failure would be critical.

Thanks,
JonathanJonathan, I'm sorry to hear that. Yes you should contact Donzi @ 800-446-6725. I've been working with Mr. Chuck Wagner. There are 2 more threads that you should study first:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55076

[JustMercMe]

Jonathan, I'm sorry to hear that. Yes you should contact Donzi @ 800-446-6725. I've been working with Mr. Chuck Wagner. There are 2 more threads that you should study first:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55076

Thanks Carl,
Looked at the threads and will contact Donzi in the next day or so. Gonna try and get some pics to have on hand when I call. Cracks are on the port side beneath the motor mounts and theres one on the bottom along the strake.....

[Lenny]

Why not do a heavy lay-up of CoreMat or similar reinforecement between the stringers and 6' forward on repair? It would basically make it like steel in tensile strength.

???

[Carl C]

Why not do a heavy lay-up of CoreMat or similar reinforecement between the stringers and 6' forward on repair? It would basically make it like steel in tensile strength.

??? I am not a boat construction engineer. There are a lot of theories as to what the problem is. I don't want to second guess the factory so will see what happens with this second repair. I'm still waiting to hear from Tom McNabb about what they found. If they find structural damage then i don't know what will happen. If it appears to be a cosmetic problem this time then I will see if it holds up. I plan to do a lot of boating this summer, if it cracks a third time it will be a bad situation. I just want a viable hull to start with like you guys have. When I repower i will beef up the engine room.

[Carl C]

OK, I just got off the phone with Tom McNabb. The boat is almost done and the cracks were superficial according to him :). I am planning to pick up the boat thursday and will visit Chicago again on the way.

[chappy]

OK, I just got off the phone with Tom McNabb. The boat is almost done and the cracks were superficial according to him :). I am planning to pick up the boat thursday and will visit Chicago again on the way.

That's huge. I'm glad for you Carl, you've got to be relieved.:thumbsup:

[Carl C]

That's huge. I'm glad for you Carl, you've got to be relieved.:thumbsup: Thanks, you bet I'm relieved and I will be giving it a good workout on the Great Lakes this summer with the new truck and all to make sure the repair holds up.

[DonziJon]

OK, I just got off the phone with Tom McNabb. The boat is almost done and the cracks were superficial according to him :). I am planning to pick up the boat thursday and will visit Chicago again on the way.

Excellent News Carl. The stream of New Lighthouse Pictures will continue. :yes: John

[Carl C]

Excellent News Carl. The stream of New Lighthouse Pictures will continue. :yes: John Lighthouses? Yeah, we have a few of those in Michigan. Here are a few of the ones I've visited so far.

[Greg Maier]

Why not do a heavy lay-up of CoreMat or similar reinforecement between the stringers and 6' forward on repair? It would basically make it like steel in tensile strength.

???

Carl,

I'm glad for you. My suggestion is to give your glass guy an extra $500 over what Donzi gave him and have him fix it permanently per Lenny's suggestion. Then you would be done with it.

[Carl C]

Carl,

I'm glad for you. My suggestion is to give your glass guy an extra $500 over what Donzi gave him and have him fix it permanently per Lenny's suggestion. Then you would be done with it. It would be more than $500 since the engine would have to come out again. Also it is done now.:crossfing:

[mjw930]

Carl,

You do realize that there are now 135 reasons (posts) for someone to NOT buy this boat whenever you decide to sell.........

I'm just sayin'

[Carl C]

Carl,

You do realize that there are now 135 reasons (posts) for someone to NOT buy this boat whenever you decide to sell.........

I'm just sayin' I know that I am risking stigmatizing my boat but should we just sweep all of this under the rug? I think we are here to help each other and this site was a great help to me during this problem and I'm not afraid to help others find the problem and get their boats fixed before they get too bad. My boat's not for sale anyway.

[yeller]

Carl,

You do realize that there are now 135 reasons (posts) for someone to NOT buy this boat whenever you decide to sell.........

I'm just sayin'With Carl's, you know the problem has shown up and been repaired. That's the boat I would want.

Plus his is in the best color. :)

[RickSE]

Carl, what did he do to fix it? Was gel too thick or putty present like mine?

[Carl C]

With Carl's, you know the problem has shown up and been repaired. That's the boat I would want.

Plus his is in the best color. :)

Absolutely. How would you like to purchase a boat with this design defect that has been run only on calm water and have the hull start cracking when you run it a little harder. If I were in the market for a 22C of this vintage I'd much rather have one that has had the factory mods done. Time will tell if mine is fixed for good and I will keep you guys informed. I'm sure there are others who had the problem and don't want it known. Hopefully the first factory fix which beefed up the back of the boat considerably fixed the problem and the returning cracks were not serious. I bought this boat new because I plan to keep it for a long time. One day this boat will be one of the top 10 or so 22Cs in the country. And, yes, it is the right color. :)


Carl, what did he do to fix it? Was gel too thick or putty present like mine? I believe it was a putty problem.

[Greg Maier]

Carl,

Can you explain the puttty problem? Is it that the strakes were filled with putty and the putty didn't provide any strength?

[Lenny]

Carl,

Can you explain the puttty problem? Is it that the strakes were filled with putty and the putty didn't provide any strength?

The putty would be used under the strakes to fill a void and on both sides to create a radius that lends itself to be glassed to, up and over the stringers.

Putty has zero strength.

IMO :)

[Ghost]

The putty would be used under the strakes to fill a void and on both sides to create a radius that lends itself to be glassed to, up and over the stringers.

Putty has zero strength.

IMO :)

For further clarification, it is good and standard practice to use putty in this way, correct? And the glassing should provide all the strength, with the putty guiding the glasswork into the proper shapes to provide the appropriate strength and avoid hard corners that concentrate stress?

Put another way, a putty problem would be things like "the putty was too thick and thus the glass on top was too thin", as opposed to "I ground it out and there was putty inside! What an outrage!"

Last, are there better ways to build it than to use putty? Something else? All glass with a larger radius? Etc?

[Carl C]

Greg, Ghost, I'm not real sure what caused the cracks to return on the bottom. I will talk with the glass guy more about it when I pick up the boat tomorrow.

[Lenny]

For further clarification, it is good and standard practice to use putty in this way, correct? And the glassing should provide all the strength, with the putty guiding the glasswork into the proper shapes to provide the appropriate strength and avoid hard corners that concentrate stress?



YES, bingo

[RickSE]

The problem on my boat was that after they ground out the original hairlines they apparently filled the grind pockets with putty to build up the surface thickness to re-gel the bottom. The resulting finish coat was too thick and cracked when it flexed. My glass guy stated, "…you've got a putty problem" before he even opened mine up. Says he's seen other manufactures use putty in the strakes and and have problems. He suspected that Donzi used putty when they build the boat but actually discovered that they used it in the repair. All my putty was removed and the pockets were filled w/glass.

[Ghost]

YES, bingo

Thanks, now I get it.


The problem on my boat was that after they ground out the original hairlines they apparently filled the grind pockets with putty to build up the surface thickness to re-gel the bottom. The resulting finish coat was too thick and cracked when it flexed. My glass guy stated, "…you've got a putty problem" before he even opened mine up. Says he's seen other manufactures use putty in the strakes and and have problems. He suspected that Donzi used putty when they build the boat but actually discovered that they used it in the repair. All my putty was removed and the pockets were filled w/glass.

Thanks, now I get this too.

[gcarter]

There's putty and then there's putty......
The putty Donzi used inside my strakes and, to some extent, smeared all over the hull around the area of the strakes, inbetween layup layers never gets completely hard. When I opened up the strakes, I could dig it out with a wood chisel. It actually compressed in the area of the engine mount and left a void inside the stringer....no wonder it broke in the radius.
Then there's the polyester putty I used to fill areas around the strakes.
Of course I filled the putty with glass.....milled fibers in areas where I was fairing the bottom, and cut fibers where it needed more strength, or I was filling really deep areas.
As far as strength goes, I suspect there's little difference between gel and polyester putty that's not filled w/glass of some sort.

[Lenny]

George, years ago, doing glasswork, we used to use Asbestos :eek: mixed with resin as a filler. It was fabulous stuff, rock hard, you could barely grind it. It did not compress or crack. I went to buy some (say) 10 years ago, only to have the glass/chem supply shop look at me like I was from Mars. :bonk:

Needless to say, that product as a filler component is no longer available but there are about three boats out there still running with it inside their hulls.

Now, how much longer will I live ??? good question :(

[gcarter]

George, years ago, doing glasswork, we used to use Asbestos :eek: mixed with resin as a filler. It was fabulous stuff, rock hard, you could barely grind it. It did not compress or crack. I went to buy some (say) 10 years ago, only to have the glass/chem supply shop look at me like I was from Mars. :bonk:

Needless to say, that product as a filler component is no longer available but there are about three boats out there still running with it inside their hulls.

Now, how much longer will I live ??? good question :(

It's inevitable that some of this stuff ends up on the floor when you're trying to get it on the hull....
I apparently dropped some the equivalent of of 3 or 4 OZ's.
The other day I swept up before Big Griz dropped by on his way to the boat show for our annual post birthday lunch that he bought this year.
Well, here was this big glop of glass filled putty on the floor. I got a 2 LB. ballpeen hammer and a 2" wide wood chisel and tried to get it up.....
Wow!
I tried to cut in two!
I tried to cut it off the floor!
I kept trying!
I finally got it split down the middle, but the concrete suffered substrate failure before it came up.

[roadtrip se]

Are you going to recap the final fix on your 22 or just leave the impression out there that it has come apart twice?

Just as an FYI, I have been to McNabbs when Horne picked up his Criterion and I am considering utilizing them for some structural upgrades to my 22. This will be on my dime, not Donzi's. So I am interested in seeing what and how they did with your boat, as I am sure many others are here with recent vintage 22's.

My understanding from talking to them is that your first fix might have been a bondo and cover over job, not exactly what Donzi prescribed. I am sure it is fixed right now, but do you care to elaborate? Some pics would be great too.

If I missed it, I apologize. Thanks for the update.

[JustMercMe]

Are you going to recap the final fix on your 22 or just leave the impression out there that it has come apart twice?

Just as an FYI, I have been to McNabbs when Horne picked up his Criterion and I am considering utilizing them for some structural upgrades to my 22. This will be on my dime, not Donzi's. So I am interested in seeing what and how they did with your boat, as I am sure many others are here with recent vintage 22's.

My understanding from talking to them is that your first fix might have been a bondo and cover over job, not exactly what Donzi prescribed. I am sure it is fixed right now, but do you care to elaborate? Some pics would be great too.

If I missed it, I apologize. Thanks for the update.

You have a pm........

[Carl C]

Not real sure exactly why the cracks reappeared on the bottom. Hopefully McNabbs got it fixed. I have one more summer under warranty so will see what happens. Not much to photograph, the bottom looks like new again. I hope it stays that way. Tom did not think there was any further structural problem and did not do any work in the engine room as I had indicated.

[roadtrip se]

Not real sure exactly why the cracks reappeared on the bottom. Hopefully McNabbs got it fixed. I have one more summer under warranty so will see what happens. Not much to photograph, the bottom looks like new again. I hope it stays that way. Tom did not think there was any further structural problem and did not do any work in the engine room as I had indicated.

According to McNabb today, your bottom was "fixed" the first time with bondo and then gelled over. There was no way that was going to stay put together. So they fixed the fix. He went into it in great detail as we discussed my improvements.

If it were me, I would have pulled the motor and re-visited the fix in the bilge too, based on the quality of the work on the bottom. But that's me. I also like his extra bulkhead idea under the back seat to tie the boat together better. But again this is on my dime as possible upgrades and I doubt Donzi would have paid for it for you.

Hopefully you won't see Tom again.

[roadtrip se]

Hmm, so where's your engine??? :eek::eek:

where a certain engine might be?

If so, I would be thrilled if I could say Milford, Michigan in my backyard. Getting a sterling reputation, if you get my drift. But alas, it sits in the flowerpot in cold storage down by Cumberland.

I just checked in with McNabb today, because I figured my work is going to be something like Carl's and wanted to see how it went. Just doing the research, ya know... not everybody is going to get a shot at freshening up the flowerpot without a little inquisition.

[Lenny]

Todd, too bad you can't ship it 2400 miles one way and have it beefed up... With all the 1808/1708 0+90 . -45 + 45...scenario, and coring.

But judging by the amount of time I have spent (not spent) on Criterion parts for a certain someone, (don't worry, all is good) I would be worried about this particular "Tradesman" :D

[roadtrip se]

Todd, too bad you can't ship it 2400 miles one way and have it beefed up... With all the 1808/1708 0+90 . -45 + 45...scenario, and coring.

But judging by the amount of time I have spent (not spent) on Criterion parts for a certain someone, (don't worry, all is good) I would be worried about this particular "Tradesman" :D

estimates being a little off, you don't know how tempting that offer is...

Of course that would mean that I would have to come up for "progress inspections" and go kick around with you, Fogducker, and Blueliner too, right? Man, that would be terrible.

Dude, check your messages, I called to bother you over the weekend!

[Trueser]

estimates being a little off, you don't know how tempting that offer is...

Of course that would mean that I would have to come up for "progress inspections" and go kick around with you, Fogducker, and Blueliner too, right? Man, that would be terrible.

Dude, check your messages, I called to bother you over the weekend!

Roadtrip...................

Lets go I will drive along with you. We can pull the motor when we get there. Put it back in and GO........


That is your name........

[roadtrip se]

Do not tempt me Trueser... I could use an adventure like this, right now, in the worst way.

Favorite roadtrip scene of all time below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4STTYu-wkU

[Trueser]

Do not tempt me Trueser... I could use an adventure like this, right now, in the worst way.

Favorite roadtrip scene of all time below...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4STTYu-wkU


TEMPT it is.... I'm ready to go and have Vacation time to burn. Passport is in order. You need a getaway.

Lets go..

We should move this off of Carls thread.....

[fogducker III]

TEMPT it is.... I'm ready to go and have Vacation time to burn. Passport is in order. You need a getaway.

Lets go..

We should move this off of Carls thread.....


Do it............:thumbsup::canada::drive::beer:

[Carl C]

We should move this off of Carls thread.....

No problem, this thread has served it's purpose.