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harbormaster
11-29-2008, 02:21 PM
Hidden cost of driving a Prius
Totaling all the energy expended, from design to
junkyard, a Hummer may be a better bargain.
By James L. Martin

When it comes to protecting the environment, senior citizens should concentrate more on
the total energy consumed in building and operating a car than its fuel efficiency - no
matter how impressive the statistics appear on the window sticker at the showroom.
A prime example is Toyota's Prius, a compact hybrid that's beloved by ardent
environmentalists and that fetches premium prices because it gets nearly 50 miles-pergallon
in combined highway/city driving.

Yet, new data have emerged that show the Prius may not be quite as eco-friendly as first
assumed - if you pencil in the environmental negatives of producing it in the first place.
Like most hybrids, the Prius relies on two engines - one, a conventional 76-horsepower
gasoline power plant, and a second, battery-powered, that kicks in 67 more horses. Most
of the gas is consumed as the car goes from 0 to 30, according to alarmed Canadian
environmentalists, who say Toyota's touting of the car's green appeal leaves out a few
pertinent and disturbing facts.

The nickel for the battery, for instance, is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and smelted at
nearby Nickel Centre, just north of the province's massive Georgian Bay.
Toyota buys about 1,000 tons of nickel from the facility each year, ships the nickel to
Wales for refining, then to China, where it's manufactured into nickel foam, and then
onto Toyota's battery plant in Japan.

That alone creates a globe-trotting trail of carbon emissions that ought to seriously
concern everyone involved in the fight against global warming. All told, the start-tofinish
journey travels more than 10,000 miles - mostly by container ship, but also by
diesel locomotive.

But it's not just the clouds of greenhouse gases generated by all that smelting, refining,
manufacturing and transporting that worries green activists. The 1,250-foot-tall
smokestack that spews huge puffs of sulphur dioxide at the Sudbury mine and smelter
operation has left a large swath of the surrounding area looking like a surrealistic scene
from the depths of hell.

On the perimeter of the area, skeletons of trees and bushes stand like ghostly sentinels
guarding a sprawling wasteland. Astronauts in training for NASA actually have practiced
driving moon buggies on the suburban Sudbury tract because it's considered a duplicate
of the Moon's landscape.

"The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants, and the soil slid
down off the hillside," David Martin, Greenpeace's energy coordinator in Canada, told
the London Daily Mail.

"The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute pollution, but
all it did was spread the fallout across northern Ontario," Martin told the British
newspaper, adding that Sudbury remains "a major environmental and health problem.
The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high."

A "Dust to Dust" study by CNW Marketing Research of Bandon, Ore., shows the overall
eco-costs of automotive hybrids may be even higher.
Released last December, the study tabulated all data on the energy necessary to plan,
build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from drawing board to junkyard, including such
items as plant-to-dealer fuel costs, distances driven, electricity usage per pound of
material in each vehicle, and hundreds of other variables.

To put the data into understandable terms for consumers, CNW translated it into a
"dollars per lifetime mile" figure, or the energy cost per mile driven. When looked at
from that perspective, the Prius and other hybrids quickly morphed from fuel-sippers into
energy-guzzlers.

The Prius registered an energy-cost average of $3.25 per mile driven over its expected
life span of 100,000 miles. Ironically, a Hummer, the brooding giant that has become the
bête noir of the green movement, did much better, with an energy-cost average of $1.95
over its expected life span of 300,000 miles. And its crash protection makes it far safer
than the tiny Prius.
Such information should be of major concern to senior citizens - especially those on a
fixed budget.

If seniors need a small gas-sipping car for city travel, however, the undisputed champion
is Toyota's own gasoline-powered subcompact, the Scion xB, whose energy cost
averaged a negligible 48 cents for each mile traveled over its lifetime.
Fully armed with all the facts, seniors may want to zip down to their nearest Toyota dealer
and trade in their Priuses for Scion xBs. That would be the equivalent of reducing
their energy footprint from a size 24D to about a size 5A. In the case of global warming,
one small step for man may turn out to be a giant leap for mankind.

James L. Martin (JMartin@60plus.org) is president of the 60 Plus Association, a national nonpartisan
senior citizen organization based in Arlington, Va.

Bob
11-29-2008, 11:00 PM
Great read. Everyone in California thinks electricity comes from an outlet in the wall. :shocking:

Cuda
11-29-2008, 11:35 PM
I knew before I read this which one I'd rather be in a wreck with.

LKSD
11-30-2008, 10:10 AM
A very sad true read, but the damn tree huggers dont usually seem to think outside the box. I ended up selling all of our Hummers this year because I got tired of people bitching at the pump & where ever we would stop up here.. Some times people were borderline violent (this is when the fuel prices were at an all time high)..

I ended up trading 2 hummers in and getting a new suburban which the fuel milage was only 1 mpg more than the humme yet it had a smaller engine & costed almost just as much as the 1 Hummer we had.. I also bought a used but nice Jeep Cherokee sport for the wife. The 4.0 6cyl got 2mpg LESS than the 6.0 V8 Hummer!!! Later I ended up having problems with both vehicles that pizzed me off even more, So I traded them and bought a new Jeep Commander V8 dolled up for the wife & a New Ram Big horn Quad cab for me.. The Tow capacity on the Ram is quite a bit more & the fuel is a few mpg better, so thats not bad. However it doesnt have all of the comforts of the Hummers. The Commander get 1mpg less than the Hummers & also has has a some of the same comforts, but does cost less, so I would call it a fair compromise.. :crossfing:

The main thing that I find disturbing is that on both jeeps, the suburban & Ram,, NOBODY gave a care that they consumed similar quantities of fuel, Sometimes even more!.. Sometimes I believe it comes to jealousy and ignorance as to why people think, say and do the things that they do..:shocking:

Actually I think that Hummer should use that arcticle in it's ads. It certainly couldnt hurt thier image in my opinion.. I really miss my Hummers, And I probably wouldnt have gotten rid of them if people were only more informed as to how things really shake out.. Due to only desiring to maintain 2 4x4's and 1 car, I didnt feel keeping one of them currently as a novelty for a sunday drive was worth it.. Oh well Im off my soap box now.... Serenity Now.. lol :kingme: Jamie

Carl C
11-30-2008, 10:23 AM
Thank you, HM, for not buying a Toyota.

mattyboy
11-30-2008, 10:37 AM
Cuda
i saw a prius in a slight fender bender the kind that happens all the time here in the NYC metro area morning rush hour stop and go traffic the prius driver wasn't paying attention reading the paper or putting on makeup and hit the car infront of her at like 5 mph of course the car behind her hit her but not hard tried turning but caught the left side of the rear bumper

I swear no one i ever care about will get in one

THE PRIUS FELL APART THE REAR BUMPER LIGHTS AND ALL FELL OFF PART OF THE REAR QTR PANEL ON BOTH SIDES CAME OFF REVEALING STYROFOAM THE FRONT END WAS TOTALLY DEMOLISHED ALL THIS FROM A 5MPH CRASH

dfunde01
11-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I ended up selling all of our Hummers this year because I got tired of people bitching at the pump & where ever we would stop up here.. Some times people were borderline violent (this is when the fuel prices were at an all time high)..
Jamie

I still love my H2. The few I catch some crap from don't push it. It stays border line because they are chicken chit at heart.

Just Say N20
11-30-2008, 11:34 AM
When the hybrids came out, I "looked into the future" imagining the scenario when the secondary electric systems wore out and needed to be replaced. The batteries used in some of these hybrids have to be VERY EXPENSIVE, and I can't imagine people spending the money to replace them, when that cost could be more than the value of the car.

If that's the case, the cars would have a shorter than average useful life, which also detracts from their efficiency.

MOP
11-30-2008, 12:13 PM
Very good read thanks Scot! One thing the article did not mention was the cost of replacing the batteries, I was told it was several thousand dollars and again more pollution!

BigGrizzly
11-30-2008, 12:24 PM
First off as I have said before the gas mileage isn't better then before the 80s on small cars vs the Pyrus. I truly believe after driving one it was mostly hype. Coming from an auto background the artical does not surprise me in the least. If your going to do an EV car it better be better then they are, just hopped up golf carts.

Ghost
11-30-2008, 03:33 PM
Anybody know anything about battery reclamation? My instinct has long been that batteries of all kinds are awful for the environment, but I have no hard facts. I would think with large batteries like car batteries, there would be some possibility of reclaiming the nasty chemicals, where small disposables are likely a problem for the groundwater, for a long time, like I suspect those "green" compact fluorescent lightbulbs are.

I bet for total cost and minimal envronmental impact, an 80s Honda CVCC, perhaps with a slightly updated engine, would be very tough to beat.

DonziFreak
11-30-2008, 04:57 PM
Makes me want to jump into my diesel dually and head down to the local gas station with a smile on my face! :biggrin.:

McGary911
11-30-2008, 05:24 PM
I've seen \ heard about this one before. There are some issues with the study that the article is based on. Interesting read tho.

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf

Cuda
11-30-2008, 06:18 PM
Cuda
i saw a prius in a slight fender bender the kind that happens all the time here in the NYC metro area morning rush hour stop and go traffic the prius driver wasn't paying attention reading the paper or putting on makeup and hit the car infront of her at like 5 mph of course the car behind her hit her but not hard tried turning but caught the left side of the rear bumper
I swear no one i ever care about will get in one
THE PRIUS FELL APART THE REAR BUMPER LIGHTS AND ALL FELL OFF PART OF THE REAR QTR PANEL ON BOTH SIDES CAME OFF REVEALING STYROFOAM THE FRONT END WAS TOTALLY DEMOLISHED ALL THIS FROM A 5MPH CRASH
Sometimes things are more important than saving gas, like saving your life. Imagine a head on collision between the two.

harbormaster
11-30-2008, 10:31 PM
My apologies to the Jeep guys out there. I like them too.


Oh Yeah

zelatore
12-01-2008, 11:44 AM
While I don't deny the H2 is capable off-road, and it's an infinitely better tow rig than a Jeep, why didn't they show any of those H2's on technical trails or in tight back-woods areas?

Oh, because they're HUGE and won’t fit!

BTW, I think I’d wet myself in just about any vehicle going down Lion’s Back. :eek:

That said, I think the best thing about this posting is the small video to the left. Can I see more of that one please?

BigGrizzly
12-01-2008, 12:03 PM
Ghost, you are correct, However a stock CVCC 80 Civic will actually out perform the Pyrus in almost every category.
As for the Jeep I have a 2002 Grand Cherokee, and it has a tow rating of 6500lbs with out an equalizer hitch and 10,000 with one. It tows the 22 extremely well. However I use mostly the Expedition for the long hauls because I bring a lot of props and stuff with me. I have no idea what the H3 tow rating is.

zelatore
12-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Hey Griz, just so's ya know I was talking about Wranglers when I mentioned towing above.

Still, I can't imagine towing 10,000 with anything short of a diesel 3/4 ton no matter what sort of hitch it had... That's twice the weight of the tow vehicle, and I know that Grand Cherokee doesn’t have all that much under the hood.

As for the Prius...the only reason to buy one is to make a 'statement'.

I get a particular joy out of passing them stuck in traffic on my bike.

zelatore
12-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Remember, bigger isn't always better:

http://jalopnik.com/5096933/chevy-tahoe-messes-with-texas-mini-cooper-pays-price

BigGrizzly
12-01-2008, 12:33 PM
I was pretty sure that you were talking about them just threw that in to stop any bantering from others. You have been around boats too long and seen every tow unit available and know what really works.

LKSD
12-01-2008, 02:45 PM
While I don't deny the H2 is capable off-road, and it's an infinitely better tow rig than a Jeep, why didn't they show any of those H2's on technical trails or in tight back-woods areas?
Oh, because they're HUGE and won’t fit!
BTW, I think I’d wet myself in just about any vehicle going down Lion’s Back. :eek:
That said, I think the best thing about this posting is the small video to the left. Can I see more of that one please?


I wouldnt pull 10k behind my jeep either.. lol That would be nuts.. The jeep is the basic transportation for us & can be used for light towing.. It is not a wrangler although they are nice too. & Yes the H2's are quite wide. So much so I couldnt actually fit thru some dive thru's here like @ the bank or Mcdonalds.. lol ... That aside, the traction & climbing that they could do if width wasnt an issue was spectacular.. And they were absolutley awesome in deep snow!... Looking outside my window @ my home office tocay with the wintery mix falling I miss them even more.... :( Oh well At least I can say I had a few of them for a while any way.. :) Jamei

LKSD
12-01-2008, 02:56 PM
Ghost, you are correct, However a stock CVCC 80 Civic will actually out perform the Pyrus in almost every category.
As for the Jeep I have a 2002 Grand Cherokee, and it has a tow rating of 6500lbs with out an equalizer hitch and 10,000 with one. It tows the 22 extremely well. However I use mostly the Expedition for the long hauls because I bring a lot of props and stuff with me. I have no idea what the H3 tow rating is.


The H3 is supprisingly low all things considered. I think it was only about 5k max! :shocking::eek:

The Grand cherokees doa pretty good job for the smaller stuff as well, I personally havent pulled with our Commander v8 yet, but I think it will do well on the smaller stuff given its power and decent size.

On a different not I too would much rather a Honda any day over the Prius (of if in an accident possibly Pry~ass).. I know Toyota builds quality vehicles, but the Prius doesnt really do anything for me personally.. But thats me.. :) J

roadtrip se
12-01-2008, 03:16 PM
when I drive the Excursion, which was killed off due to political and environmental pressure, not because the vehicle wasn't a sales success and had a very loyal following.

It has done a fantastic job managing the 28SS which is about 11K with trailer, gas, and everything else.

On the Prius, this article has been circulating for a couple of years now and there is a lot of truth there that the enviros just don't want to face up to. There is hope though. The new VW Jetta TDI got the environmental award of the year at the LA Auto Show recently for its clean diesel and earth friendly economy.

In addition, I always chuckle when a Prius goes blowing by me at 80+ and burning gas... kind of defeats the whole concept.

LKSD
12-01-2008, 05:55 PM
In addition, I always chuckle when a Prius goes blowing by me at 80+ and burning gas... kind of defeats the whole concept.

Good point & Funny.. :) J

mattyboy
12-01-2008, 06:34 PM
so the big japanese company has finally learned the way of the american market fill a demand not matter what the cost and make it up as you go along so they marketed the prius on the fears and hopes of the tree huggers and liberal winnies of the world even though the car is not so green
sorry but where is the outrage

Air 22
12-01-2008, 07:15 PM
A very sad true read, but the damn tree huggers dont usually seem to think outside the box. I ended up selling all of our Hummers this year because I got tired of people bitching at the pump & where ever we would stop up here.. Some times people were borderline violent (this is when the fuel prices were at an all time high)..
:shocking:Jamie...Screw people bitch'n at u..let'em...tell'em to mind their own business. Go to another gas station...:wink:
I had a guy do the same thing when filling my 22C hauled by my 08 Escalade this past summer.."I bet that gets great milage" he spouts out...I looked over and laughed and replied "yep they sure do..especially at 80mph":cool: wadda tool...he raced away in his lil preeeeeeus..:nilly: I'm not against hybrid's or anything else that reduces our carbon footprints etc but to each his own and leave it at that...:cool:
RIDE N' TOW with PRIDE in whatever you drive...:drive:

Cuda
12-01-2008, 09:04 PM
sorry but where is the outrage

Good marketing for the uniformed.

Cuda
12-01-2008, 09:05 PM
I found my 350 4x4 PSD up to the task of pulling the 22.

Having too much truck it like having too much money.

Oh, and I got 21 mpg empty from Jax to here.

VetteLT193
12-02-2008, 08:24 AM
The dust to dust study is a good read for anyone who hasn't seen it yet...

http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/