Rush is talking about alcohol separation in E10.

[smbarcelow]

Oh no! Worlds are colliding again. :cool:

[Just Say N20]

It is interesting to hear someone outside of a particular industry talk about something.

I worked at Tiara Yachts for three years, and this became a major area of concern. Tiara makes a large percentage of their fuel tanks. This allows them to get maximum capacity for a given space, which is important as everyone seems to want to go faster, farther between fill ups. There is very specific testing that has to occur for the tanks to be Certified.

Back when they were working with the glass/resin people regarding what to use for tank construction, nobody imagined that there would come a day when alcohol would be a component of fuel, so they never tested the resins for the ability to maintain integrity relative to alcohol. As you can imagine, the guy who spent a considerable sum on his "new to him" Tiara would like to know about this, as you have to cut the cockpit sole out to replace the fuel tank.

The quality of alcohol to attract water, and the eventual stratification is much more a problem with large boats, because you can have 250 gallons+ of gas sitting there for 6 months or more, giving all these troublesome things time to happen. In cars, where you typically will run through tanks of gas quickly, there isn't time for this to happen.

Just another example of the government watching out for us.

[gcarter]

It might would be time to drop in a set of used/rebuilt diesels rather than pull/replace tanks.
It might even be a toss up money wise.

[Just Say N20]

I am aware of a couple different Tiara owners that repowered their boats from gas to diesel.

One was a 36' flybridge. He replaced 454/350 hp Crusaders with Cummins diesels. At cruise speed, his fuel efficiency doubled from about .5 mpg to 1.0 mpg. What amazed me was his cruise speed went from 18 mph to 28 mph. He was delighted with the resulted, but admitted that they did it because his wife loved the boat. They looked at what they would have to spend to replace it with something similar new, and decided it was worth spending $60K+ for the project.

The other guy put in Styer diesels. I just saw him in an ad in one of the yachting magazines. His name is Peter Abbot, and he had a 31' Tiara. You can read about it here if you want. http://www.horizoneastonline.com/

Neither was done for alcohol/gas issues, both substancially improved performance and economy.

I wish our 38 CARVER had diesels, but at the time when the boat was new, it was about a 35% upcharge for diesels, and most people said, "Uh, no." We cruise at 17 mph and get .4 mpg. In the picture, look behind the CARVER, and you will see a red 16' Donzi. Magical Bill, who owns a Carolina Blue 16 Donzi, and his son (who owns the red one shown) were at this resort on vacation as we were passing through.

[zelatore]

N2O - people still don't buy diesels in smaller Carvers very often. At least not in my market. Like you said, there's a major up-charge. Just as an example, let's look at the MSRP on a 2009 38 SS (sedan)
base price (w/Crusader 6.0):....$381,060
gas Kohler 7.3 gen:..................$13,685
total:...................................$394,745

Now look at upgrades:

Crusader 8.1............................$3,380
Volvo 8.1 IPS..........................$69,745
Yanmar 6LPA (315 hp)..............$47,495
Volvo D4-300 hp......................$56,515
Volvo D6-370 hp......................$83,475
Volvo IPS450 (370 hp)..............$86,700

diesel Kohler 9.0 gen:...............$20,530

So base diesel price:...............$449,085

That's an up-charge of $54,340(+) just to get into a diesel.

Certainly the diesel will get better economy and have a greater range than the gas motor. It will also cruise faster although top speed will be similar or even a bit slower. The diesel will have better manners around the dock due to bigger wheels giving greater effect at idle, and will behave better off-shore in a big swell where the added torque will push it up the back of a big wave without loosing as much speed.

Now let's assume that diesel and gas cost the same per gallon. They don't, unless maybe you have access to a big commercial harbor that sells diesel to working boats like crabbers or shrimpers, etc, but just for the sake of argument we'll go with it.

The diesel will probably get about 25-35% better economy. If you run an average of 100 hrs a year, burning perhaps 15 gph (average) in gas that amounts to 1500 gallons of fuel. At $3.00/gal that's $4,500. At $4.00/gal, that's $6,000. If the diesel gets a full 35% better economy, you'd burn an average of 9.75 gph. So at $3.00/$4.00/gal that's $2925 and $3900 for fuel, respectively. Or an annual savings of between $1,575 and $2,100.

Remember, this assumes you're able to buy fuel at the same price per gallon. I don't know many people doing that.

Also for the sake of argument I'll assume the added cost of the interest on the loan for the diesel motor is offset by the greater resale price.

So it takes a really long time to see a payback on that diesel motor. It's like buying a hybrid car: unless prices go through the roof or you drive a TON of miles, it's not really economical. You do it to be 'green' or to promote the technology, not to save money. Just so, you buy a diesel in this size boat because you like the way it drives or need the range/longevity, not to save money.

Of course, most people don't actually do the math. The average buyer comes in saying 'I want this size boat, this price, and I'll only look at diesel'. They just think diesel good, gas bad because that's what they've always heard around the dock from the 'old timers'. If you do the math with them, they usually think you're trying to pull some sort of fast one on them just to sell the boat you have in-stock.

[Just Say N20]

N2O - people still don't buy diesels in smaller Carvers very often.

He said smaller Carvers. . . . .:frown::garfield:

[zelatore]

He said smaller Carvers. . . . .:frown::garfield:

Sorry about that....if it helps, my own Carver is only 32....:wink:

Currently, 36 is the smallest boat they're selling. They go up to the 56 Voyager, then in the Marquis line they go from 40 to 72, with plans to launch models in the mid 70's and mid 80's later.

[gcarter]

My suggestion was based on having to gut the boat to replace the fuel tanks. If someone were a careful shopper and bought a pair of used or rebuilt Cummins "C" engines with down angle boxes, it may work with what deck repair and new aluminum tanks would cost. Or even if the difference of the newer engines vs. new tanks was 1/2, it might be worth it.

[zelatore]

It all comes down to a case-by-case cost/benefit analysis.

On an aft cabin like N2O has, normally you'd pull the motors then the tanks as they are outboard in the engine compartment.

I used to have a Uniflite 36 aft cabin with a pair of 440's. I holed a piston on one motor and had to rebuild it. While it was out, I pulled the tank on that side and installed a larger, custom made tank to gain 50 gallons. Yeah, I was off-balance if I topped it up, but no big deal once you had burned a little fuel off you just opened the crossover valves and let gravity do the rest. I did the tank mainly because I could see signs of rust forming at the baffle weld points and figured if I didn't do it now while the engine was out it was bound to fail next year.

The only other option would be to cut side of the boat out and pull the tank right out the side. I've seen it done on larger boats, but haven't done it myself. Not sure on the labor cost that way.

If you've got tank problems, a lot of hours on your gas motors, and can get a deal on used engines, it might make sense. But by the time you replace the engines, transmissions, gen, fuel lines, props, shafts, struts, etc...it's a tough sell for most people. I'd guess even with used engines you'd be $50-$75K with labor. (that's just a WAG)