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View Full Version : Ohhh boy...this is getting EXPENSIVE! Need advice.



Likety-Split
11-23-2008, 07:56 AM
My second Donzi (87 Z-33) was looking bad, so I opted for a winter re-fit. Once all the mechanicals and electricals were out, I found that the transom was rotted at the exhaust cut-throughs, the "battery ledges" in the engine room were dry-rotted, (stringers were still good) and the engine room bulkhead was rotted. Ditto for the gas tank cover. Apparently 21 year old boats dry-rot. Whoda thunk it?

The shop where I had the boat (Tim Lingerfelt's Boat Body Shop in Lake Norman Cornelius, NC) wanted 25K to repair and restore just the hull- NOT including interior, engines, refitting. Holy Sh*t!

So, am I loosing my mind, or is this the going rate for glass work in the midst of the recession? Was going to lunch at the yacht club in his BMW650 convertible a clue that I was about to finance his merry Christmas?

My research indicates that there is about 120 hours man-hours of work start to finish- and that's doing the Cadillac job I want.

I wonder if someone on the board can suggest the CORRECT way to accomplish my goal (sea worthy and correct hull) without putting unrealistic money into the hull? While you are at it, any favorite interior shops? I have no problem hauling the boat 1,000 miles myself to go to the ideal shop.

Please help :lifeprese:- I feel like an naked infant in a mosquito hatchery.

Added photos: How (bad) she looks naked

Trueser
11-23-2008, 08:47 AM
Welcome,
I have gone down this road and it was full of pot holes. On our 1986 Z29 we replaced the stringers/transom/bulkhead and repaired the swim platforms and changed all the gel coat on the transom.The cockpit floor was good no repairs needed. New motors and interior installed.

I have some questions.

can you post some pictures of the floor?
what drives are you running?
what is the condition of the motors?
what is the condition of the deck and sides?
Have you looked forward stringers/supports?
Was this a salt water boat?
What condition is you swim platforms in?
Are you doing any of the work yourself?

That price does seem high. The problem may be the cockpit floor repair. I can get you a price this week from a place hear in Illinois. I will see him on Tuesday this week. I need to see some pictures. I would also say that your stringers are also shot!

Email them Trueser@comcast.net
Good luck
Mike

Cuda
11-23-2008, 08:51 AM
Contact Donzigo here on the board. He's gone through every inch of his Z 33.

Likety-Split
11-23-2008, 09:10 AM
Thanks guys! I posted photos a few threads ago (just learning this posting thing)

To your questions: I don't have a close-up pic of the floor, but the one area that is weak is the 3/8" wood under the tank cover. It's not soggy, just old.

I have TRS drives- fresh, w/ velvet-touch BW trannies (also fresh)
Motors are "bowtie" gen-4 502's. Dart heads, matched intakes. I plan to put Scat 540 kits in the bottoms, use a dual plane "airgap" intakes, and different carbs. I will dyno the motors before installation, and match the screws to the torque curve.

Deck, sides look good. Swim platforms are solid, and gelcoat is good.

It's a fresh water (lake) boat, dry stored in winter all it's life. about 1100 hours on the hull. 150 hrs. on the motors. I will do the motors myself, and the glass if forced to do so. I can't do interiors. I will not do the re-fitting. I have a trusted pro for that critical job. He will rewire it as well.

I wonder if I should just but a primo hull and fit my stuff on/in?

SilverBack
11-23-2008, 10:40 AM
I don't know for sure but I would think that the way boat sales are right now it would be much cheaper to buy a good boat or hull at least!!

Trueser
11-23-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't know for sure but I would think that the way boat sales are right now it would be much cheaper to buy a good boat or hull at least!!

I agree, By the time you get the glasswork/Interior/etc/etc it may be better to just upgrade to a 28/33

Anyway I will call my guy on Monday if you are interested in hauling it to Ill,

Stringers/Transom/bulkheads

Currently he has 5 boats in line waiting for Marks to finish up.

Look for some old Z29 post of the stringer work perfromed.

zelatore
11-23-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm no fiberglass guy and I haven't seen the pics you posted, so I don't know how you arrived at the 120 hrs.

What's the going rate for a fiberglass man in your area? Out here, a good tech brings $100-$140/hr. Glass work usually goes $75-$100. I've got a good glass guy who I've made a deal with to do all my dealership's work for $50/hr (which I suspect will change next year). Let's put you at $75 since you're in a cheaper part of the country than me (SF Bay area vs. NC).

$75/hr x 120 hrs = $9000

Let's say you're off by a lot - let's call it 200 hrs.
$75/hr x 200 hrs = $15,000

Materials won't be much - I'll give it $1000, so that moves our estimates up to $10,000 and $16,000 respectively.

So either this guy mis-quoted you, you mis-understood him, or you've grossly underestimated the amount of work required.

I'd say it's worth talking to him again to be sure you are both on the same page. If so, it might be a good idea to have a second set of eyes take a look at it.

And like others have suggested, if it's really a $25,000 (and you know it will go up once he gets into it) job it might be time to look for another hull. Yeah, you'll lay out more to start with, but you can part out the stuff you don't need to recoup some of your costs.

A shame, I really dig the looks of the Z33's.

Likety-Split
11-23-2008, 03:57 PM
I agree with your math. He divided the work into 4 phases-
I) separate the cap from the hull
II) cut out old transom, stringers, bulkhead, engine room floors and replace. III) Finish surfaces, re-fit cap.
IV) gel-coat, paint, replace rub rail.

120 hours was my math based on his representations, my sketchy knowledge, and research. A real glass man (preferably one who knows and loves Donzis) should not cost more than $100/hr in any market. Here at the SC Coast $50 should be enough. The problem is finding a meticulous and diligent man. I even considered renting a space and hiring a glass guy and a helper.

The (hopeful) up-side is that the hull bill be "1987 factory spec" and perfect, with no weak links.

Can anyone here vet this theory and advise?

:shark:

PS Attached transom and outdrives pre-disassembly

Lenny
11-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Why is the tie-bar bent?

Likety-Split
11-23-2008, 05:18 PM
I hat have no flippin' clue! It was like that when I bought it last spring. Must have been a hard twang to one drive at speed. One of the skegs has a little chunk broken out of it.

The Hedgehog
11-23-2008, 05:31 PM
Are you thinking about doing the engines too?

I think that the Z are cool boats. There is a guy from Michigan that posts some. He has a hot 33.

Trueser
11-23-2008, 05:32 PM
To pull the deck on a 33 and do all that work would be more than 200 hours.

Who pulled the windshield / interior / and dash out?

This was the 29 work a few years back.

Likety-Split
11-23-2008, 08:49 PM
Trueser; That glass work is really nice! Somebody really knew how to lay resin.

Do you think I'm barking up the wrong tree wanting to pull the deck? Donzigo says the gas tank is a known failure waiting to happen, and what if the forward bulkhead is dry-rotting? Imagine the expense of that repair on a seemingly priteen boat! Just IMO- I am a newbie to this, and guessing.

I had Triangle Marine in Denver NC "de-fit" her. He will re-fit her as well, once the glass, gel, and paint is done. He specializes in updating mechanical and electrical systems. My 12V system was about as reliable as a 60's Brittish car. ( BTW: Why don't the British make computers? Becaue they cant get them to leak oil!)

Dash is going to be carbon fiber with original "peroid correct" gagues.

Hedgehog: I plan to do the motors myself. Scat 540's, Lunati roller cams, Edelbrock Air-Gap dual planes, and headers (possibly lightning). They will be dyno'd and distributor curved, carb set-up and tuned and initial run-in all on a dyno. No sense saving skimping on dyno time to save $500. I would rather have the motors perfect and bullet-proof than face the pain of an engine-out service in 200 hours. Plus, my fat ass does not do well bent over an engine room stuck out on the ocean when it's 100 degrees outside!

The Hedgehog
11-23-2008, 09:04 PM
Nice. That will be cool


Trueser; That glass work is really nice! Somebody really knew how to lay resin.

Do you think I'm barking up the wrong tree wanting to pull the deck? Donzigo says the gas tank is a known failure waiting to happen, and what if the forward bulkhead is dry-rotting? Imagine the expense of that repair on a seemingly priteen boat! Just IMO- I am a newbie to this, and guessing.

I had Triangle Marine in Denver NC "de-fit" her. He will re-fit her as well, once the glass, gel, and paint is done. He specializes in updating mechanical and electrical systems. My 12V system was about as reliable as a 60's Brittish car. ( BTW: Why don't the British make computers? Becaue they cant get them to leak oil!)

Dash is going to be carbon fiber with original "peroid correct" gagues.

Hedgehog: I plan to do the motors myself. Scat 540's, Lunati roller cams, Edelbrock Air-Gap dual planes, and headers (possibly lightning). They will be dyno'd and distributor curved, carb set-up and tuned and initial run-in all on a dyno. No sense saving skimping on dyno time to save $500. I would rather have the motors perfect and bullet-proof than face the pain of an engine-out service in 200 hours. Plus, my fat ass does not do well bent over an engine room stuck out on the ocean when it's 100 degrees outside!

Donzigo
11-23-2008, 09:46 PM
I sent you an email and called you too. As Cuda said, I have been where you are going. the bottom line is going to be this: "Do you want a Donzi with classic lines that will be in style for years to come; or, do you just want to go for a boat ride in just any other good boat?"

Let's talk when you can.

The Hedgehog
11-24-2008, 07:50 AM
If you mean period correct gauges to be black, you may want to check out CP. They are blowing out their Hardin Marine gauges for aroung $150 a set. I have seen them in person and they have nice fit and finish.

If you are going back with VDO I dunno.

LKSD
11-24-2008, 05:55 PM
A real glass man (preferably one who knows and loves Donzis) should not cost more than $100/hr in any market. Here at the SC Coast $50 should be enough. The problem is finding a meticulous and diligent man. I even considered renting a space and hiring a glass guy and a helper.

The (hopeful) up-side is that the hull bill be "1987 factory spec" and perfect, with no weak links.

Can anyone here vet this theory and advise?



Just my opinion, but I disagree. You should try not to always determine what someone should make based on occupation or car they drive. There are a lot of things and expenses that go into determining ones labor rate that many overlook.

You shouldnt always base what he drives on what he is charging you. It isnt good to assume, we all know what that means... lol :) My wife reminds me of it all the time.. :angel:.. For example I have some nice toys to enjoy, but people dont always stop to think or remember that I also have other companies beside my shop.. And my wife is an only child and only grandchild that comes from a family that was also very business oriented that had more than one business as well.. Needless to say her family still spoils her.

Sorry to get on the soap box a bit, but some stuff like this upsets me a bit when I see someone profiling business owners that may be like myself without knowing all the details..

Dont get me wrond there are DEFINITELY people out there that are rip offs, but not all of them are.. You just need to do your homework & ask questions that you may have.. :) If anyone shop is telling you that they are doing the work at cost or for free, They are fools or liars and in either case RUN.. As nobody goes to work for free. Just remember everyone needs to make money.. ;)

One other thing I would like to convey is that Just because there are some that are cheaper per hour does not mean that the one who charges more per hour is expensive. Hourly rate is only one thing that should be considered when choosing a shop.. Cheaper isn't always better. Efficency, Knowledge & quality determine if the person is really worth the price.. Sometimes by spending more up front you spend less overall and can enjoy your project. :convertib:

Just some other food for thought to help & forewarn you.. I would personally be afraid of anyone charging a labor rate of 50 per hour for work that needs to be done right, especially on a boat like that. When it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Actually the John Deere dealer here charges more per hour for lawnmower repair... :eek:


Also... As Trueser said it would be easily over 200 to pop the deck on that and go thru that type of work properly.. ;)

I wish you the best in your endeavour & hopefully you will get your boat ready to enjoy for the summer.. :)

:kingme: Jamie / Lakeside

Trueser
11-24-2008, 08:16 PM
Also... As Trueser said it would be easily over 200 to pop the deck on that and go thru that type of work properly.. ;)

I wish you the best in your endeavour & hopefully you will get your boat ready to enjoy for the summer.. :)

:kingme: Jamie / Lakeside

Thanks that just made my day. I can not imagine how many hours that just Matt and I had on the Z29. The glass guy most likely was over 400 easy. Would I ever do it again? NO way. We still have some odds and ends to finish up the Z29. I have a friend that was willing to give me a 27 Magnum that needed to be redone. Instead I turned it down and decided to enjoy life on the Scorpion. Matt also has an attached garage that has both boats tucked away and warm. This gives us a whole winter to get stuff done.

It's hard to explain the amount of work needed to restore a 30' boat with twins. That and you have to buy two of everything!

A 22 on the other hand, I will most likely do another one down the road.I really miss my 22.

Good luck on your journey

Likety-Split
11-24-2008, 08:38 PM
Richard, and all you great guys on the board;

Thanks so much for the helpfull input. It looks like (thanks to Richard's 2 1/2 hours of expert guidance), that the hull is going to make a 550 mile trip to W. Fla. for a stint at an esteemed artist in 'glass.

To fix my hull to factory-perfect specs, I will probably have not much more than the hull's value in 'glass costs. Not bad considering 22 years of flex and rot.

The other stuff is easy to quantify: add up all the known costs, doubble them, pass-out, then start writing checks!:mad:

LKSD
11-24-2008, 09:14 PM
Richard, and all you great guys on the board;

Thanks so much for the helpfull input. It looks like (thanks to Richard's 2 1/2 hours of expert guidance), that the hull is going to make a 550 mile trip to W. Fla. for a stint at an esteemed artist in 'glass.

To fix my hull to factory-perfect specs, I will probably have not much more than the hull's value in 'glass costs. Not bad considering 22 years of flex and rot.

The other stuff is easy to quantify: add up all the known costs, doubble them, pass-out, then start writing checks!:mad:

Yes, unfortunately it sometimes almost seems as if you need an open check book on some projects and there can be suprises in some projects.. However doing the right boat no matter the expense can be a very worthwhile and fulfilling experience.. Again assuming that it's the right boat for YOU.. Just take your time and enjoy the project and dont be afraid to tailor it to you along the way.. The Z's are a good hull and a worthy boat of a project for the right person. They are definitley still a classy ride in my opinon.. :) Jamie / Lakeside

LKSD
11-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Thanks that just made my day. I can not imagine how many hours that just Matt and I had on the Z29. The glass guy most likely was over 400 easy. Would I ever do it again? NO way. We still have some odds and ends to finish up the Z29. I have a friend that was willing to give me a 27 Magnum that needed to be redone. Instead I turned it down and decided to enjoy life on the Scorpion. Matt also has an attached garage that has both boats tucked away and warm. This gives us a whole winter to get stuff done.

It's hard to explain the amount of work needed to restore a 30' boat with twins. That and you have to buy two of everything!

A 22 on the other hand, I will most likely do another one down the road.I really miss my 22.

Good luck on your journey

No problem & youre welcome. It sometimes doesnt take long to get a lot of time wrapped up in some projects when doing it right. And if updating anything while doing it the time can seem to almost be overwhelming. However as you know & as I mentioned before the right person redoing the right boat for themself can be a beautiful thing. No matter whether doing it yourself or having someone do it to the way you want it.. :) I think it to almost be a form of art these days.. :) Jamie

gbsjr
11-25-2008, 07:33 AM
I think your getting a deal,,, 4 or 5 years ago my Dad paid 11K to have the stringers and bulkheads replaced in a 1994 288 Baha cruisers weekender up in Ohio.

About the same time 175 a foot was quoted to re-gel my '74 Hornet, not including stringers and transom.

Even so thinking 100 per hour is outta line,, break it down,,, shop cost, the helps cost,,, one guy isn't going to do it, 4 men will need 160 hours for a standard work week.

Compaired to a plumber, thats cheap.

The Hedgehog
11-25-2008, 09:25 AM
I have done a couple of projects that are up there with buying a new boat in expense. They were well worth it in the end.

gbsjr
11-25-2008, 03:52 PM
It all comes to a matter of choice,,,,

just a boat and just some one your seeing,,,,, like a boat and a wife,,,,,,, do you have a keeper or a beater?????

Donzigo
11-25-2008, 08:57 PM
Eric,

Boats don't have intinsic values for being "period correct" things like cars do. You are better off going for the later model gauges as well as any other equipment. The old stuff really is just "old stuff" that has been replaced by better "new stuff". Livorsi gauges are so muvch better than the 20 year old VDO stuff.