hull crack update

[smokediver]

I spoke with donzi customer service and they are NOT going to warranty the boat as it is 4 months out of warranty .. The boat wasn't used by the first owner and it now has about a years use ... I have to say that I am not a big fan right now , lol ... There seems to be a problem and Donzi is aware but are not willing to make things right ... :confused:

[Air 22]

Thats too bad...nothing like helping a customer out huh? Is Donzi not even willing to work with'em ??:confused:
Like ur Avatar...customer is the Penguin being pushed face down...Donzi the Penguin Pushing...:bonk:

[VetteLT193]

Every story posted like this means less sales for Donzi.

[smokediver]

I am not gonna product bash by any means ... I really thought that Donzi would stand behind their products a little better .. If I had put a big power engine or abused it is one thing ...Under 200 hours use with stock power is another .. The factory did offer to fix it at my expense ...

[VetteLT193]

I usually hope for a partial payment type of situation...

Had a '93 Corvette about a year out of warranty but very low miles. The clear coat started coming off the wheels. GM offered to sell a new set to me for 75% off. I thought that was a respectful way to deal with the situation and a win - win for both parties.

[cutwater]

Hate to hear this :frown: But, you have to understand Donzi's predicament... the hull is out of warranty and on its second owner...

I agree though, you would think they might at least split the cost with you or make a good faith gesture of some kind...

[need for speed]

yup they don't wana help i had an issue with them too.. I am no fan of the company just the Boat!!:shocking:

[smokediver]

Hate to hear this :frown: But, you have to understand Donzi's predicament... the hull is out of warranty and on its second owner...

I agree though, you would think they might at least split the cost with you or make a good faith gesture of some kind...
You are right .. It is out of warranty ... I am the second owner and if i were the original owner , i may be treated a little different .... What kinda grinds me is the fact that this has happened to other boats .. Knowing this plus the fact that the boat had 8 hours on it when i bought it last year .. well ... You would think that 4 months isn't really that big of a deal ... I have no problem with pulling the drive and motor and delivering it to the factory and picking it up .... So what are we looking at in labor and materials at Donzi's cost ? Maybe a couple hundred bucks ? It just isn't any way to treat a repeat customer ... IMHO ... Like Charles said .. Love the boat .. Not a fan of the company ....

[Carl C]

There seems to be a pattern of cracking hulls on late model 22 and 18 Classics. Maybe you haven't talked to the right people yet. I think you'll get it taken care of eventually but you may need to take it to the factory. :crossfing:

[MOP]

With such a history maybe their state attorney generals office is the place to start, I believe Fla is fairly strict about boating issues. There has to be enough guys just on this board to back you up.

[smokediver]

With such a history maybe there state attorny genrals office is the place to start, I believe Fla is fairly strict about boating issues. There has to be enough guys just on this board to back you up.
I am not gonna go that route ... I have neither the time or energy lol ... I did write the following letter and hopefully something positive will happen
Chuck ,
As a follow up to our conversation today , I have to tell you that I am really dis-heartened about Donzi Marines' commitment to repeat owners and true fans of the Classics . I could understand if there were hundreds of hours of use or perhaps a more powerful engine installed that Donzi may balk at my request but that isn't the case here . The fact of the matter is that this is not an uncommon problem since Donzi moved the stringers a few years ago . I am not asking for Donzi to ship my boat from Michigan or Missouri as has happened in the past . I have no problem delivering my boat and picking it up . I will even remove the drive and engine .. So now we are at Donzis' cost of materials and labor and that reality is probably a few hundred bucks ... I would like to think that after owning 2 Donzi's for 11 plus years and talking highly of the Classics I am worth a few hundred bucks to Donzi ...
As a side note .. I checked my caller ID and my voicemail and you must have mistaken me for someone else as I did not receive a call from you as you had thought .. I hope we can come to some type of agreement , rest assured I will take my case to the company president .
John W. Taylor

[MOP]

No matter how you cut it it is a design flaw, by spreading the stringers they did two things. The weakened the bottoms by increasing panel width, they widened the stringers to lower the engine with also lowered the drive causing more porpoising!
They do not want to do the job as it is pretty entailed requiring an engine pull the repair and re rig, pretty pricey when given to an outside vendor. Unless you have deep pockets I would raise a big stink if they don't cave in!

[p729lws]

This should be a recall, not a warranty :confused::confused: It's a high performance offshore power boat and the hull fails under normal use on multiple boats??? :confused::confused:

Dan

[John W]

I Just read this thread. I do not ewant to Hi-jack, but this seems to fit. I had this happen to my 04 22, with the 496 ho engine. Donzi did step up, of course I was under warranty. They do have a kit to repair the problem, some glass, some foam radaii, some resin and some crazy primer , that is made in Ohio, is expensive and highly flamable.
Ask for the Kit, perhaps they will send you one.

I was happy with my repairs, but it seems I have a new crack, with gell coat completely falling off the inside of the engine compartment, right up against the port side forward bulkhead. There are a lot of cracks around the stringer were it is glassed to the bulkhead. I hope to shoot some pics tomorrow.
Talked to Donzi, they told me to send detailed pics along with an estimate.
I am now kind of worried the stringer is loose past the bulhead and the liner is going to have to come out to actually see what going on.
Strike two.
Anybody else with a newer 22 classic with the same symptoms?
JW

[Carl C]

My '05 seems to have held up good but I'll take a closer look where you mentioned. I think a lot depends on the glass shop and maybe how early the crack is found.

[yeller]

RickSE had his repaired by Donzi and it cracked again as well. He's had it repaired a second time by someplace other than Donzi. Not sure if they paid the bill or not.

[BUIZILLA]

I have no dog in this hunt, but if this was a passenger car or light truck or aircraft, and the structural frame/body cracked, how would this be handled in automotive circles? is the boat builder world immune from justified correctness here? why does it matter how many owners it has had? if you have a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on a car does it matter if 10 people have owned it?? nope...

[BUIZILLA]

Smoke... what year is your boat and what was the written hull warranty at time of build?

[Carl C]

Smokediver,

I have a good fiberglass technician up here in St. Petersburg. His name is Charles Wilson - GlasPro - 727-341-4321. My guess is that the repair will cost around $1,000 or more. The hours mount up quickly at $50 per hour. He's quite good and does it right everytime.

I'm a manufacturer's rep. and can understand both sides. Our company will compromise on things for the first owner; but, a second owner doesn't have the same clout. If a customer has purchased the boat from a dealer and Donzi wants to keep that dealer happy, for future sales, they might be willing to work something out. In this situation, they would have to stand by the repair and at a loss in money; so, there is no reason to go outside the warranty period. And consider this, if they do it for you, they open themselves up for hundreds of other out of warranty claims; then, the warranty time frame has no meaning and they could become liable for just about anything. On the other hand, your situation is a compelling one.

Richard Aaron
727-867-7020 While Donzi handled my claim very nicely it's not good to see them denying other claims even if out of warranty. There is a pattern here; Maybe even bad enough for a recall. I think it's too soon to talk about litigation but organizations such as BoatUS and the US Coast Guard could force such a recall if Donzi doesn't step up to the plate and fix these boats...............

[mike o]

I have no dog in this hunt, but if this was a passenger car or light truck or aircraft, and the structural frame/body cracked, how would this be handled in automotive circles? is the boat builder world immune from justified correctness here? why does it matter how many owners it has had? if you have a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on a car does it matter if 10 people have owned it?? nope........ Hope ya dont mind my 2 cents, no dog either. Im a small boat builder with a out-side rep and alot of dealers. Its true the dealers have the power to argue sticky issues like this with 1st owners. 2nd owners its different. My wife has lot of customer service experiance, and getting in front of the person telling you NO, is her advice. Its easy to blow somebody off on the phone.
As person building boats for 30 yrs. This is a interesting location where the failure is in the hull on both these 18 shown. Right down the middle pretty much just under the engine. Its not the stringers failing because of the motor weight from the pounding becase then there would be 2 cracks next to both of the stringers if this was the case. Its flexing and cracking right down the middle from a GROSS failure in that (under) built area under the motor. Having a 16 classic and knowing how they ride, plane off and where most pressure is on the hull air out. This section of the hull (under the motor) takes a beating with this hull design ... and there's really no excuse for a failure in THIS SPOT, not that there should be with any boat. But come on.. this aint a bayliner. The boat got 200 hrs on it. I know its out of warranty, but the hull failed while it was under warranty probably. Id drive it down and let then tell you to your face.... How many toyota trucks did toyota just buy back with frames issues that where WAY out of warranty, thousands, and they payed top $ for them too. The good news is, from what I can see, this really ISNT that hard to fix, IF WHAT I can see is all there is. This aint good for a performance boat company... especally this boat, If they cant build this 18 right after all these years, really... wtf, whats that say about the rest of their stuff. And, I wouldnt buy their repair kit, Theres way better chit out here........

[BUIZILLA]

I was NOT aware of a stringer relocation timeline in the 18.... :confused:

Smoke, is that crack visible underneath the hull?

[mattyboy]

on the 18 with the larger 6.2 motors in the newer ones the stringers were moved not sure about the smaller v6's and v8's ????? i am not sure why they were moved?? i am not sure about the x dimension being moved and causing more porpoising??? I think the 496 is an inch or so taller than a 454 or 502 so that might explain why the stringers were moved to make it fit under the hatch???


we have many members here with newer 496ho boats if this is a true defect in all of the boats they should exhibit the same cracks


either way if it is wide spread or limited it still stinks,

[Ghost]

I see both sides of the argument. Have two thoughts. If it's not a one-boat issue, whether it is 10 or 100 or whatever, and with it sounding very much like it probably did happen during the warranty period, my guess is it will be cheaper for them in the long run for them to take care of it, and any others, and have the discussion here in front of the Donzi community end happily. (See also: origins of LL Bean)

Also could not agree more that if there is any way to show up in person and have the conversation in person, preferably where they can see it, I think your odds go way up.

[RickSE]

Smoke,

Keep talking to them; you may be able to work something out, especially being in FL. They're all good guys in Customer Service and want to help but sometimes their hands are tied.

These boats will flex but there needs to be a balance between flex & stiffness. What we're seeing is a struggle between flex and stiffness in this area. These boats are stiff from the stringers out so the flex that is happening in the stringer to stringer keel panel concentrates at the base of the stringers. This factor along with the placement location of the stringers and inner lifting strakes has caused some problems but Donzi's fix does seem to work. I did have an issue after the repair but it was not related to the structure or procedure.

[zelatore]

OK, I'll throw in 2 cents as well

If I wear my official hat as a service manager for a yacht dealer, and I had a problem like this show up just out of warranty even on a one-owner boat, my response would be this: It's not warranty and I can't cover it, but I'll speak to my factory representative and see if they will make an exception. No guarantees, as they are technically not obligated.

Now, I've seen issues like this happen before and Carver has been very good about stepping up and handling the work post-warranty. Times are much tighter for them right now as I suspect they are for all boat builders - I've seen them be much more stringent about the claims I file in the second half of this year. That said, I currently have a boat that's a year out of warranty with a paint failure issue (the paint adhesion on the aluminum arch and trim is failing) where they have made a compromise offer to the owner of approx. 60% of the repair cost. Note this is about a $4000 job. They simply offered to send the owner a check. The owner is trying to get more, but I regard this as more than fair: The failure, although Carver doesn't admit it, is due to an error in application at their end. However, Carver is under no legal obligation to pay one cent. They are doing this out of a sense of fairness, customer relationship building, and PR (or more accurately, avoiding bad PR).

I suppose the moral of this story is this: These sort of situations are strictly case by case. Most manufacturers won't want it publicly know that they made repairs outside warranty to avoid opening the door to every Tom Dick and Harry who has a problem down the road to come to them looking for a handout, but even more so they don't want negative publicity about an honest failure that they refused to cover even if they had the legal footing to do so.

I agree with everybody above - talk to the right people at the factory if you can; if you were the first owner, I'd try to get your dealer to support you in this as well. Whatever you do, don't go crazy or make threats as that will put them on the defensive and you'll get nowhere. I don't know what would happen if you brought the boat down to the plant (not really an option in my business) but if you can set up a face to face meeting with the boat there, I'd say your chances of at least partial coverage go up significantly.

[smokediver]

I really appreciate you folks pointing me in the right direction as far as getting a fix on this ... I spoke to Donzi again today to see if me pulling the drive and motor myself along with taking it there and back would be a good compromise but long story short is they don't want to fix it for free ...
My boat was sold to a guy in Maine in June of 2003 . It had 8.. I repeat 8 hours of use on it up until August of 2007 . I told donzi that i had noticed a small crack back in the summer but didnt think much of it as my 1998 16 had the same crack but it never went any where ... Did the crack , defect whatever you wanna call it happen out of warranty .. I think not . Not a scientist here but i am guessing it was cracked for a while and took a little time to appear . Yes , there is a crack along the strake as well . The boat is a 2003 . I am going to have a surveyor look at it next week and I will decide what avenue to take when i look at the report . Yes I am the second owner but donzi isn't the second builder . There should be a little PRIDE in product , not just money . It boils down to what is ethically right and legally right and Donzi certainly is on the wrong side of doing the right thing ethically and very well might wind up on the wrong side of the other ... I also appreciate all of the folks on here that PM'd me on their problems and in the big scheme of things , my issue is small in comparison to what has happened with others .
I will just say if you own a Classic look real close in the bilge and the strakes and if there is a hint of a crack , get the ball rolling !!!
I am a big fan of the boat !!! Not a big fan of their customer appreciation !!!

[osur866]

John sorry to here the news, I'd try and keep talking to them and see if the will do anything for you Steve

[BUIZILLA]

Smoke... what year is your boat and what was the written hull warranty at time of build?
...................

[smokediver]

...................
Hey Jim .. The boat was first sold in june of 03 .. and had 8 hours of use until aug.07 ...

[BUIZILLA]

John, my question is this > what was Donzi's hull warranty in the 2003 model year?

[smokediver]

John, my question is this > what was Donzi's hull warranty in the 2003 model year?
I am sure it was 5 years as it is now ...:confused:

[RickSE]

Yes, the structural hull warranty would have been 5-years, and would start counting down once the hull was sold & registered with Donzi.

[harbormaster]

A few points.

1). This why I tell everyone to get a marine survey done an ANY boat you buy no matter how new. You need to get a marine survey done and personally get a copy to all the high ups at Donzi and American Marine Holdings.

2). Bad PR - Tell Donzi about this thread on Donzi.net and how it is really bad PR. Ask them how much they spend on advertising, and then tell them how this money is negated exponentially by situations like these. If they step up and help, then you will make this thread go away.
Also tell them that you will do #3 below because you are concerned for the safety of the uninformed 22 donzi owner who rides his family in it.

3) Lastly, if you get no assistance, then get in touch with the Coast Guard/other state & Fed boating safety entities. Make sure they have copies of this marine survey and impress the seriousness of this documented chronic failure.



Oh and one other thing. the 6.2 is the same size as the 5.0 and 5.7 V8's.
same induction etc.. I do not see why they would move the stringers on the 18 for this engine.

[mattyboy]

Harbor has given some great advice there if i might ad to it would be get the contact info and the model and year info of the members here that have had the problem and the dates Donzi fixed their problem any state agency would need some proof that this is occuring /has occured to others in the past and that should do it

[BUIZILLA]

I have a good friend in PA that went through the rusty frame Toyota truck deal... he had way past 150,000 miles, he was NOT the original owner, his truck was worth maybe $8,000 wholesale, maybe.... Toyota inspected it and refused to let him remove it from the dealership at that point. He was pissed he had no wheels as he also used it for snow plowing for extra cash in the winter... Toyo said don't worry... he was worried, he's NOT wealthy... Toyo gave him a loaner truck until a decision could be made.. Toyo came back 2 days later and wrote him a check for over 14k, right at high used retail on a 8 year old vehicle, and offered him dealer cost on a new Tacoma 4wd if he wanted it, he took that cash on the spot and bought another used Toyo truck with it that was 5 years newer...... he was sooooo impressed with the customer satisfaction offer from Toyo that he went back and bought a new Camry for his wife a couple months later. My point here is that Toyo kept a customer in a same brand truck, and got another sale to the same family later on... I don't see Toyo crying for a bailout...

[mike o]

My frame story came from a tennant of mine. 8 yrs out of warranty. Same exact deal with the value with the buyout. Bought it used and they gave him high book and a rental for 5 weeks free, wholesale cost on a new one ...But get this, this truck had typical of all autos around here in new hampshire, a rust bucket from all the salt they dump on the interstates around here (roads are all white from tons of salt) all winter, to get folks the ski areas. Didnt matter, across the board policy. They bang the frame with a big hammer measure it or something and everybody, gets this deal. So he had this truck for 5 years for FREE. Toyota did it on their own. They learned from the firestone tire marketing horror blowning tires deal. Well In the last 2 months as a taxpayer I own a piece of aig - morgan stanley, ect - ect, maybe a car company or 3 and now Im a lobbyist.

[gcarter]

If you're wonder about stringer location, if the engine mounts are bolted to the INSIDE of the stringers, they are further apart.
If they are bolted to the OUTSIDE they are closer together.

[RickSE]

Smoke,

I still haven't figured out if you have an 18C or 22C?

[BUIZILLA]

18C ..............

[Donziweasel]

Alright, my .02. Yesterday, Blister Boat came up in a converstation between me and Lenny. This guy splashed his problem on the web, posted all documentation, and finally got his boat re-painted by Donzi. The reason it worked is because whenever you typed Donzi into a search engine, it came up. Made Donzi look really bad, and it should have, they were in the wrong.

For all of you with stringer crack issues, and I know Smokediver isn't the only one, perhaps this is the way to go.

I will say that I know for the boats under warranty they have done a great job from what I have heard.

I can gaurantee you that Donzi knows about this thread. They read this forum.

Man, what is up with quality control from 2003-2004????? Yeller's deck, and many stinger cracks.

[MOP]

Another point by locating the brackets offset there by moving the mount inward added a fulcrum point, the engine weight pushing downward tends to fex the stringer inwards adding to the problem. Like mentioned above this should by rights be considered a recall not a warranty issue, it is poor thinking upon their part.

Donzi's PR people must or should monitor this and other sites, like any other business one hundred good words will not erase away one bad word!

[Donziweasel]

Phil, a few years ago I posted something about how Donzi customer service had taken care of a problem they didn't have to on a boat. A Donzi customer service rep PM'd me and thanked me for posting what I did. Gave me some rep points too. They read this forum.

[RickSE]

OK, if it's an 18C then I can't add much, just don't know about issues they may have.

Another member here had an issue he was trying to get covered under warranty. He never got full coverage but I do believe got a compromise.

[cutwater]

I don't see a lot of Classics in my neck of the woods, but out of the 4 2000 and up I have seen, 3 have had hull cracks and 3 have/had varying degrees of 'bumps' on the deck. Whoever does quality control there should have been fired a long time ago.

Wow... didn't realize the QC issues were that widespread... That's pretty bad.

[Mr X]

WAY OUT OF HAND and exaggerated
Thank you poodle!!!

[yeller]

WAY OUT OF HAND and exaggerated
Thank you poodle!!!I didn't exaggerate what I've seen.

[Mr X]

Donzi should have to repair the hull regardless of your warranty date. This is a documented problem that is a safety issue. IMO there should have been a recall issued on all the boats. I don't know if a different crew is used to build the larger boats and the Classic line gets all the rookies, but the quality is absolutely horrible on the newer boats. I don't see a lot of Classics in my neck of the woods, but out of the 4 2000 and up I have seen, 3 have had hull cracks and 3 have/had varying degrees of 'bumps' on the deck. Whoever does quality control there should have been fired a long time ago.

Didn't Donzi offer to repair your boat at the factory for you....and you declined to return it to the factory?? And then they shipped you a brand new deck ??
Very interisting........

[yeller]

MP, if you want to pull my posts that's fine. I stated what I've seen. I figured if the hull has the potential to crack right through, that's a safety issue. As far as firing the QC guy, well that's just an opinion.

All in all, what I posted was far less controversial than what I see others get away with.

[yeller]

Didn't Donzi offer to repair your boat at the factory for you....and you declined to return it to the factory?? And then they shipped you a brand new deck ??
Very interisting........NO they didn't offer to fix it at the factory. Who told you that. The brand new deck cost me $4700 and they wanted $2200 to paint the stripe (which I declined). I also have to cover any costs to swap it.

In fact, I originally offered to bring it to the factory, but was told they wouldn't fix it.

If you like, I can you tell you the whole story.

[RickSE]

We need to differentiate between the 18 & 22C, they're not the same issue.

[Carl C]

CarlC for one, never would have found his if he wasn't on this site.

True, I found mine when they were hairline cracks along the strakes because of info posted here. Donzi Marine handled my case well and the boat is stronger than ever.


We need to differentiate between the 18 & 22C, they're not the same issue. Also true.

Should this thread go poof? I don't know but I guess I'd follow MP's advice.

[yeller]

I don't make things up just to stir the pot. What I posted was what I've seen with my own eyes and my own opinion. I figured I'd get blasted for my post because it wasn't praising Donzi. So I deleted my posts and will play by the rules. Others have quoted me, but that's up to them if they want to retract or not.



I wonder, is their warranty transferable to the second owner automatically, or does it have to be registered? In that case, was yours, and also, was John's?It needs to be registered. Donzi cashed my $50 check, so that must mean they registered it.



That said, tossing them under the bus BEFORE you have exhausted your recourse at the factory s NOT the way to get your case heard with a sympathetic ear..If that's directed to me, I never brought up my deck issue on this site. Even though things weren't going the way I wanted them to only a few people knew I even had any problems with it at all. I responded to Mr. X because he implied Donzi sent me a deck for free, which is not the case. If he wants to delete his post, then I'll delete my response.


The deck issue, well I heard differently from the factory, so what is the true story of the repairs?
I'll have to do that one later as it'll take me awhile to type it all out. Do you want me to post it here or do you want it PM'd?

[smokediver]

I posted this really as a heads up to others who may have the same issue . I didn't say anything about a safety issue . I really don't see the harm alerting others to keep a close eye out in their bilge area so IMHO , this post wasn't a mistake . As I said , I am not product bashing . Donzi made it real clear to me on the phone that they were not going to do anything about it,even after I offered to pull the drive and engine and tow it up there ... I guess I can fix it myself but honestly I was really shocked at donzi's attitude towards me and my problem . Especially after being such a loyal owner all these years . The only thing I was happy about was the fact that the engine compartment is a lot bigger in an 18 than a 16 , lol ...
I haven't posted this problem on any other website as I think it is a donzi owners issue .

[Mr X]

he implied Donzi sent me a deck for free, which is not the case.

Maybe they found out you had a supercharger on it by that time :confused:

[BUIZILLA]

this begs the question... there are several earlier hulls, with tons more hours on them, that have blowers and no hull issues... heck Ted, you had one... so why is the blower an issue with a bilge/hull structure problem that only appeared in hulls AFTER the stringers were moved? I don't believe there is even one documented hull issue, regardless of big power, in earlier hulls... once again, no dog in the hunt with me, but i'm EXTREMELY curious..

edit > I never knew the stringers were moved in the 18's either... or were they?

[Mr X]

this begs the question... there are several earlier hulls, with tons more hours on them, that have blowers and no hull issues... heck Ted, you had one... so why is the blower an issue with a bilge/hull structure problem that only appeared in hulls AFTER the stringers were moved? I don't believe there is even one documented hull issue, regardless of big power, in earlier hulls... once again, no dog in the hunt with me, but i'm EXTREMELY curious..
Glad you asked that question Jim, I ran the boat for 2 years with no problems......then I installed the supercharger. It developed hull cracks in those exact spots within the first few runs. Must have been the added torque and running it harder with the added power.
Yes it was still under the factory warranty at the time.....however I had clearly voided it by adding the additional power.
I did not even bother contacting the factory. My fault, my problem, my responsibility to fix it......and I did.

[BUIZILLA]

okay, we're getting somewhere :yes: now, help me out again, are these solid or rubber mount engines in the later moved stringer setup's? i'll esplain something interesting once I get this answer..

[Mr X]

Mine was rubber....and so are the new ones.

[BUIZILLA]

cool, making progress then...

have any 22 repairs involved the 496-375 engines?

are all the cracks on the port side only of every incident?

is there a record of how many 18's have shown this issue?

[gcarter]

The stringers in the 22's were actually moved in the early '90's. There didn't seem to be any pronlems with the 502s. The problems seem to have started w/the 496s and Rick's boat (more ponies).....
Was the X raised or lowered for hatch clearance w/the 496?
I'm really curious if there was a lay-up schedule change in about '01 or '02?

[Carl C]

My cracks showed up first on the bottom of the hull as hairline cracks and a little gel chipping along the strakes. I didn't see any cracks in the bilge. You need to get under the boat with a powerful light and look for them. I'd advise all owners of late model Classics to do so because it is best to catch it early IMO.

[BUIZILLA]

the 502-415's never had an issue right? I don't think 10hp is gonna make or break the deal here... I believe there is more to this that we can learn here, to benefit everyone.... once again, this is NOT a safety issue, by any stretch of the imagination... this is *cosmetic*, but annoying and aggravating nonetheless... look at Chromey's boat, he does NOT baby it.. no issue's there...

the '92 Chris Craft built hull I sold to fuzzy had a thru hull transducer that we removed and plugged, the bottom thickness in that hull was noticeably thicker in every area... I think fuzzy remembers that... the hull was much heavier, I could actually feel a difference towing it than an earlier or later 22 version with the same tow vehicle... i've ridden in Danny's boat enough to know that his is heavier as well.. in fact, I rode in Danny's boat and Sue's Anniv boat on the same lake, the same day, same water, same speeds, and the ride was much heavier in Danny's boat, Janice even commented to me, after riding in both boats on the same day, on what a difference it was....

i've twisted the frame of a car with only 650 hp so it doesn't surprise me that the bottom can flex like that with engine torque pulling up on the stringer, and the water beating like a drum against the bottom... the faster the speeds, aired out, the hull rides farther aft against the afflicted area.. the faster you go, the harder the water hits against the hull, it makes perfect sense to me..

In John's case, IMO, *I think* Donzi needs to man up and fix it at their expense, that is a basic stock as a rock, unaltered, maintained diligently, trailed properly, unabused hull as could be, within the factory HP plate designation limits, his low hours are documented, especially after John offered to remove/re-install the engine and deliver/pickup the hull at the factory...

builder loyalty will see any successful company through the next 2 years, no loyalty will drive that consumer to another brand when the economy improves, and said consumer wants to move up again..

[The Hedgehog]

I have talked to Yeller about his issues and recall that he did keep his issue off the forum for quite some time.

I won't get into his story as I don't want to misquote some things but it is a heck of a story. From what I know of the story he made a pretty strong effort to work things out without airing it out.

I don't know about other issues, but I don't see how the deck portion of the story had anything to do with a blower.

:popcorn:

[Donziweasel]

Deep breaths everyone.

I think niether John nor Yeller went out to air thier dirty laundry but only posted the problems after all recourses had been explored. I think John was looking for advice more than to bitch about it. Yeller didn't even mention his problems for a long time. I don't know the whole story, but from what i have heard, Donzi gave him a raw deal on a nice anniversary boat with the deck issue. I would like to hear the whole story sometime as I have only heard second hand.

Poodle is right about it not being a safety issue, at least not yet. It is athetics, and everyone wants their boat to look as good as possible. No one wants to look at cracks in thier stringers or hull. Even knowing they were there would drive me crazy.

In the end, it seems everyone is right in thier own way. Now, back to figuring out how to get John's boat fixed the most cost effective way. :wink:

[mattyboy]

jim,
you bring up good points there, my point was if this is a wide spread issue it would appear on ALL boats and that would be what 20 to 25 boats a year maybe more right they made 40 40th so there are 40 boats not to mention standard 22s so chromey would have it todd undertaker to name a few and we have a big 22 turn out at the dustoffs most with big stock power it seems to me a REAL problem would be the topic of discussions around the dock


now the people saying this is a safety problem need to calm down a little my 16 had more stress cracks around the stringers to keep a palm reader busy for years the new owner has now beat the living crap out of the boat enough to break the small glass tabs and 5200 bond that the deck as come loose of the hull the stress cracks have gotten worse but have not failed

has there been numerous reports of hull failure???

seems to me in this world of web surfing that a wide spread problem would have come to light with more people coming to donzi sites or sections looking for advice or telling horror stories

again i feel for those effected, but isn't this an open forum for the resonable exchange of ideas in the donzi world i don't think sweeping it under the rug is the answer as long as it doesn't turn into a foul mouth dog pile on the rabitt bash session i mean doesn't donzi have to take the good with the bad??? i mean they use these forums to announce and hype shows and new models, on the flip side if there is an issue that is discussed reasonably and politely isn't that acceptable

[harbormaster]

No one removes post but me.

[SilverBack]

I don't know anything about these issues but as many of you know...I have had plenty of my own. In my case...if I would not have aired out my situation on this site and really on OSO and BF too...I don't think that I would have ever gotten anything done about my problems and I don't think that the registry would have ever gotten the parts that I donated. I think there is also an obligation to help others not to have the same problems that you have had..and if they do to let them know that they are not alone and things that they may do to help themselves. I know that I would not want to be blind to some potential problem that is common because someone didn't want to be embaressed or to embaress someone else.

[zelatore]

the 502-415's never had an issue right?

Oh, I wouldn't say that....

2001, 502/415, less than 200 hrs, stock.

(and no, I'm not planning to contact the factory)

[mike o]

jim,
you bring up good points there, my point was if this is a wide spread issue it would appear on ALL boats and that would be what 20 to 25 boats a year maybe more right they made 40 40th so there are 40 boats not to mention standard 22s so chromey would have it todd undertaker to name a few and we have a big 22 turn out at the dustoffs most with big stock power it seems to me a REAL problem would be the topic of discussions around the dock


now the people saying this is a safety problem need to calm down a little my 16 had more stress cracks around the stringers to keep a palm reader busy for years the new owner has now beat the living crap out of the boat enough to break the small glass tabs and 5200 bond that the deck as come loose of the hull the stress cracks have gotten worse but have not failed

has there been numerous reports of hull failure???

seems to me in this world of web surfing that a wide spread problem would have come to light with more people coming to donzi sites or sections looking for advice or telling horror stories

again i feel for those effected, but isn't this an open forum for the resonable exchange of ideas in the donzi world i don't think sweeping it under the rug is the answer as long as it doesn't turn into a foul mouth dog pile on the rabitt bash session i mean doesn't donzi have to take the good with the bad??? i mean they use these forums to announce and hype shows and new models, on the flip side if there is an issue that is discussed reasonably and politely isn't that acceptable... Not all hulls on boats, will develop the same problems real world. Because of conditions, that is not always the case. My 16 on squam because it has so many islands that keep the white caps to a minimum, would never be subjected to the exact 16 that would live on lake george with all the open water. I e, 3'ft chop like george and champlain gets... So it not that simple. Im not saying anthing about any boat company but MINE... possiable problem with hulls, "maybe" under building for what ever reason, trying new materials, core's, new fabrics, high tec stuff that should be lighter + stronger. Theres has been alot of new stuff with materials going on in the industury last 10 yrs.... But flexing, flexing cause fatique, fatigue causes cracks.. cracks = hull failure over time. Some places faster than others. Not 200 hrs, like the pics shown, sorry, for any reason, ever. The test of time in the real world is the only proving grounds. Anything to become a classic has to have a long live span, right. And if ever theres a problem with my stuff, the first to know aint me. It starts here...

[Carl C]

It's not a cosmetic problem. The cracks will worsen to the point of letting in water and the hull would eventually break up if anyone was stupid enough to keep driving it. The first mention of this was on a thread called "Is this hull failure?". I don't remember whose boat it was but the cracks were really bad. It was a late model 22C. I can't find the thread. It was in late 2006 I think.

[mattyboy]

carl, i am not sure how you can infer that all these hulls will fail to the point of hull break up, has an incident of that ever been documented?

here is the post you mentioned


best i can see was, it was mentioned to test with colored water for hull failure (water intrusion) but no response was given to that test but i am reviewing all threads on this
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062&highlight=hull+failure
mike so a boat that gets beat on gets cracks and a boat that doesn't get beat on doesn't??? doesn't sound like a mfg'r problem but more of a useage problem????

[gcarter]

Here's some sketches that Rick did earlier this year based on his high HP 22SE and my '88 TR with the closer stringers;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32589&d=1194379181

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32671&d=1194546320

Then here's some pictures of the gottom of the '88 TR showing the cracking that took place under the stringers aft of the end of the inner strakes;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32539&d=1194122494

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32540&d=1194122494

And here's Rick R's '95 22, and you can see the engine mounts bolted to the inside of the stringers at the bottom of the picture;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32538&d=1194118888

[Carl C]

carl, i am not sure how you can infer that all these hulls will fail to the point of hull break up, has an incident of that ever been documented?

here is the post you mentioned


best i can see was, it was mentioned to test with colored water for hull failure (water intrusion) but no response was given to that test but i am reviewing all threads on this
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062&highlight=hull+failure
mike so a boat that gets beat on gets cracks and a boat that doesn't get beat on doesn't??? doesn't sound like a mfg'r problem but more of a useage problem????Well, thanks for finding a thread that I've searched all over for, there is a lot of good info there. All I'm saying is that the cracking on the 22Cs is not cosmetic. It keeps worsening.

[gcarter]

I pointed out in my thread these pictures came from, that the outboard edges of the stringers were sitting on the hull bottom like a knife edge with nothing to spread the load out.
I quickly perused the thread Matty posted and didn't notice anyone mentioning that fact. I packed thickened epoxy under my stringers and added large inner and outer radii along with a hefty build up of additional glass.
Bedding the stringers in epoxy during construction costs very little. Adding foam fillets to the bottom of the stringers is pretty inexpensive also. It's got to be a small fraction of what 20-30 repaired hulls cost.

[DonziJon]

Here's a story that has no relation to the story in this thread. It DOES have a relation as to Flex in a fiberglass hull. In 1979 I sailed my C&C 27 (Sail: Built in Canada) to Bermuda and back from Newport. That's 635 miles straight out into the Atlantic across the Gulf Stream. When I got back to Newport, a C&C factory guy was there to meet me. He wanted to know what my experience was making the passage.

During the trip, I spent some time lying on the cabin sole snoozing for 15 minutes at a time while the boat was on "Self Steering"....24 hours a day for over 6 days. I was Solo. While lying on the cabin sole.....I could FEEL the lead keel under me flexing from side to side like a pendulum. I was worried. Nothing happened. After arriving in Bermuda, a week later, I returned to Newport without any damage.

The factory guy explained: YES: We knew that this would happen but we wern't concerned with the 27. We built the C&C 30 and found the same problem...and in that case we had to fix it.

SO: Either the factory knows what's going on and fixes it.....OR.. the owner adds some stiffening on his own without any engineering knowledge, and causes "Hard Spots" and makes a new problem that didn't exist before. John

[mike o]

carl, i am not sure how you can infer that all these hulls will fail to the point of hull break up, has an incident of that ever been documented?

here is the post you mentioned


best i can see was, it was mentioned to test with colored water for hull failure (water intrusion) but no response was given to that test but i am reviewing all threads on this
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47062&highlight=hull+failure
mike so a boat that gets beat on gets cracks and a boat that doesn't get beat on doesn't??? doesn't sound like a mfg'r problem but more of a useage problem????:wink:.. I never used the b word. I was talking of the probabilty of a problem ever appearing in relationship to differing enviroments.:wink: Thanks for adding the info. Ill buy the same yr 18 as you.:wink:

[yeller]

Does no one remember a couple years back of a boat that had severe cracks,....to the point of going all the way through (or very close)? Maybe what I'm remembering wasn't a newer boat and was something different. In any case, the memory of that boat is why I called this a safety issue.

I will modify my comment to agree that smokediver's issue isn't safety issue at the moment, but I believe it could be if left unchecked. If water getting in due to a cracked hull is NOT considered a safety issue.....then I am wrong and this never will be a safety issue.

Why do I think it'll crack right through? I'll leave my boat out of the equation, but from what I've heard from a few owners I've talked to is that the gel on the bottom of their boats was starting to chip away. IMO if the hull is flexing enough to cause the gel to chip away at the 'stress' crack, then the fiberglass is breaking down.


BTW: I will say that my "story" Hedgehog is talking about isn't all about Donzi. Some of it is about the dealer/repair shop I dealt with.

[RickSE]

Donzi found something in a 22C just before they fixed my boat which made them decide to revise the repair procedure. I was very happy when I saw the revision since I felt it demonstrated that Donzi was doing their homework and had a genuine interest in fixing the problem. I also felt that the new procedure was addressing what I saw as the fundamental problem; too much flex in the stringer to stringer keel panel which creates a high stress concentration at the inboard base of the stringers. The high stress at the base of the stringers is also compounded by the proximity of the stringers to the outbaord edge/radius of the inner lifting strakes.

Buzz, I was told that they were only seeing this problem in the HO boats and mine, which is a solid motor mount with no rubber. The port side is taking the brunt of the abuse on these boats.

I have about 60-hours on my repair and it seems to be holding up well. I did have a finish issue that appears to be resolved.

[mattyboy]

George ,
for clarification the diagrams you posted show the inner strake at the transom i know it is not a 3d display but everyone should realize that the strake stops a few feet before transom but the stringer runs all the way to the transom so the cross cut display is correct it just happens a few feet from the transom

[gcarter]

George ,
for clarification the diagrams you posted show the inner strake at the transom i know it is not a 3d display but everyone should realize that the strake stops a few feet before transom but the stringer runs all the way to the transom so the cross cut display is correct it just happens a few feet from the transom
You're right Matty. And actually, the flat area aft of the inner strake is where most of the damage occurs because;
1) The flat area aft of the inner strake is inheirently weaker than the shape of the inner strake.
2) The stringer sits on the outside corner on the flat area aft of the inner strake and the bottom glass is damaged by the impact of the knife edge.

[Air 22]

the 502-415's never had an issue right? I don't think 10hp is gonna make or break the deal here... I believe there is more to this that we can learn here, to benefit everyone.... once again, this is NOT a safety issue, by any stretch of the imagination... this is *cosmetic*, but annoying and aggravating nonetheless... look at Chromey's boat, he does NOT baby it.. no issue's there...
the '92 Chris Craft built hull I sold to fuzzy had a thru hull transducer that we removed and plugged, the bottom thickness in that hull was noticeably thicker in every area... I think fuzzy remembers that... the hull was much heavier, I could actually feel a difference towing it than an earlier or later 22 version with the same tow vehicle... i've ridden in Danny's boat enough to know that his is heavier as well.. in fact, I rode in Danny's boat and Sue's Anniv boat on the same lake, the same day, same water, same speeds, and the ride was much heavier in Danny's boat, Janice even commented to me, after riding in both boats on the same day, on what a difference it was....
i've twisted the frame of a car with only 650 hp so it doesn't surprise me that the bottom can flex like that with engine torque pulling up on the stringer, and the water beating like a drum against the bottom... the faster the speeds, aired out, the hull rides farther aft against the afflicted area.. the faster you go, the harder the water hits against the hull, it makes perfect sense to me..
In John's case, IMO, *I think* Donzi needs to man up and fix it at their expense, that is a basic stock as a rock, unaltered, maintained diligently, trailed properly, unabused hull as could be, within the factory HP plate designation limits, his low hours are documented, especially after John offered to remove/re-install the engine and deliver/pickup the hull at the factory...
builder loyalty will see any successful company through the next 2 years, no loyalty will drive that consumer to another brand when the economy improves, and said consumer wants to move up again..


Errrrr....I have a lil Port-side Stringer prob w my 502 415hp in my 1995 22C.:shocking:.The crack on top side of stringer is approx 16 in long. Its going to be repaired b4 the HP500EFI is installed...I'm going to keep the original mounts but have a longer bracket in between the engine motor-mount and stringer. This is to displace the torque..ie..lifting moment on the port-side stringer is subjected to. How much damage is in there I wont know for sure til its opened up. The starboard side doesn't show these cracks..only hair-line type cracks...but nothing like the starboard stringer. I'm hoping its only stress related damage not a total rot-out...the boat is kept on trailer. The repair shop is familiar with Donzi and its stringer history....and comes highly recommended for stringer repairs...hoping for the best...:crossfing::crossfing:

[gcarter]

Dwight, I think you would be very pleased with the Donzi repair.
It's a welll thought out scheme which adds considerable strength.
With the engine out, it would be easy to accomplish.

[Air 22]

Dwight, I think you would be very pleased with the Donzi repair.
It's a welll thought outs cheme which adds considerable strength.
With the engine out, it would be easy to accomplish.

I can only hope so...:)

[RickSE]

Air 22,

WOW, this will be interesting to see what you find. How far apart are your stringers, 23" or 28"? I'd take George's advice, that 500 is gonna stress your bottom.

My 500 is mounted in with an offshore bracket. I'd suggest this option for a bullet proof setup, but your stringers need to be at 28" and you need a hump in each stringer for the mount.

[Air 22]

Air 22,
WOW, this will be interesting to see what you find. How far apart are your stringers, 23" or 28"? I'd take George's advice, that 500 is gonna stress your bottom.
My 500 is mounted in with an offshore bracket. I'd suggest this option for a bullet proof setup, but your stringers need to be at 28" and you need a hump in each stringer for the mount.


Rick...I will measure the stringer width...The repair shop is going improve the original stringer set-up and really beef-up the entire area..I plan to improve the L-braket system with longer L-Brackets that cover a longer area on each side of stringers...the RED factory L-brackets are 6" I believe..and I plan to use 10" Brackets so to spread out the twisting moment. I have considered the Mercury Racing Bracket and have one to use but have been advised it wasn't necessary if the stringer repair is done correctly:nilly:. If I was always wave jumping or racing then the Racing Bracket was appropriate... The factory rubber mounts absorb most of the engine vibrations etc...
Your set-up sounds great...do u notice anything different from the factory mount sys? ie any vibrations in steering sys or in hull? I have a full hyd steering sys....what to do?? :eek: btw..Im not implying you wave jump or race...I was told unless u drive like that a race-mount was overkill....then again...ya never can be to safe right:nilly::nilly::)

[ky-donzi]

Has anyone connected the port and starburd side brackets togather? Maybe longer "L" brackets and the a connector on the front and rear end of them, looks like that might reduce some of the twisting force

[RickSE]

...do u notice anything different from the factory mount sys? ie any vibrations in steering sys or in hull?

I've never know it any other way since this is how the boat came from the factory, but it's solid as a rock with no ill effects. The motor shakes the whole boat but nothing excessive. I like the setup since I feel it's a little stronger then the standard mounting, but it's also heavier and a lot harder to align the motor. My stringers are also double thickness in the back of the boat.

ky-donzi, this is what the offshore bracket does. The bracket is a steel plate engine cradle that mounts to the stringers via L-brackets, tying the stringers together. The motor then mounts to the cradle with solid mounts.

[Bryan Tuvell 33ZX]

Killing time on Thanksgiving morning (in Kansas no less) and read this thread. 3 Donzi's and the first two had the repeated cracking fairing, I was second owner on the 22ZX and Donzi shipped a new one to Virginia Beach and paid the $3500 bill. When it cracked again the dealer taking it on trade talked to Steve while I was there, they helped him as a dealer. 2nd was the 26ZX, bad cracking fairing, I towed it 800 miles, Steve made it right, no more issues on that boat.

The 2003 33ZX NO ISSUES as of yet, 5 years of a GREAT boat...

Mixed reviews on the company now, unless your buying swimwear! Yet I loved all 3 Donzi's. Would I buy another, doubtful, 38 CIG time when I finally upgrade, lost interest in the ZR Comp's, my woman likes a cuddy.

STAY ON THE FACTORY FOR RESOLUTION....

Bryan Tuvell

PS Kansas is a "different" kind of place! LOL
PSS Steve is sorely missed at Donzi IMHO.

[joseph m. hahnl]

Well I have this to add to the mix. If Donzi has a repair Kit available on the shelf right out of a box:shocking:. Then there is a problem with every one of them that was made in that fashion. It also would be the usage of a manufacturing problem both go hand and hand.
Meaning: The more and the harder you drive the boat, the more it would lead to the inevitable failure Or cracking.

The Kit is a Micky Mouse Fix in My opinion.
It would be better to refit the motor mount to the out side(see my signature:wink:) and put cross member stringers in. This would change the direction of twist (as the older style does) limit the amount of movement and stiffen the flex in the center. Adding more glass and resin and then hiding it under foam doesn't really seem like a permanent fix to me:crossfing:."Fits under the out of sight out of mind":pretzel:

I would really like to see Donzi step up to the plate for there design flaw. Here's More Food: Did they Fix the problem in the new boats or are they still mindlessly building boats that will inevitably fail:confused:??????????AND OR Have they bean counted so much by using inferior resin glass matt or less of it or any thing else to reduce costs,Or even something as simple as the Quality Manager, That it is ultimately ruining the name and reputation of the company

That said: all fiber glass boats crack to some degree over time. I think that 200 hrs would be a bit premature

[RickSE]

...The Kit is a Micky Mouse Fix in My opinion.



The "Kit" is for the 22C's only and it works, adding significant strength to the hull with mini-stringers, fillets and additional lay-up. Donzi did fix or resolve this issue with new boats after they figured out what was going on in late 06'/early 07'. The repair that started this thread is for 18C's and is a different procedure then the 22C Kit. I had (2) local glass guys look at my boat after Donzi's fix, both know their stuff and were impressed with the extent of the repair.

[joseph m. hahnl]

The "Kit" is for the 22C's only and it works, adding significant strength to the hull with mini-stringers, fillets and additional lay-up. Donzi did fix or resolve this issue with new boats after they figured out what was going on in late 06'/early 07'. The repair that started this thread is for 18C's and is a different procedure then the 22C Kit. I had (2) local glass guys look at my boat after Donzi's fix, both know their stuff and were impressed with the extent of the repair.

That's Great I didn't realize the kit was so extensive:eek:. I'm Glad they eliminated the problem for the new boats.:shades:

[Air 22]

Air 22,
WOW, this will be interesting to see what you find. How far apart are your stringers, 23" or 28"? I'd take George's advice, that 500 is gonna stress your bottom.
My 500 is mounted in with an offshore bracket. I'd suggest this option for a bullet proof setup, but your stringers need to be at 28" and you need a hump in each stringer for the mount.


Measured today...Stringers are 28" apart:cool:

[gcarter]

Makes me wonder what the first year was.........we know the '95's had the wider spacing.

[John W]

I had the first repair done about 2 years ago, the cracked stringers and Donzi's repair kit. Now this winter I am winterizing my boat and found these cracks about an inch or so above the port stringer and more cracks where the top of the stringer is laminated to the hull side. I need some input. Thanks.
JW

[gcarter]

John, there doesn't seem to be a large radius layed up on the inside of the stringers.
Did you happen to see the repair done? Do you know wat the lay up consisted of?
I did the same Donzi repair to my TR and I'm familiar with it, and it's my opinion if done properly it'll hold up.

[Donzi Vol]

I just read this thread, and I really hate to hear that you guys have had such problems with these hulls and (even more so) the Donzi company. It amazes me in one way, though. Is it surprising to anyone else that these hulls seem to be failing while many hulls still around from the '60's and '70's are holding strong? I suppose that's why I'm so into the old restored Barrel Backs (enjoyed 3 in great shape, working on the 4th). Sorry...off subject...sorta.

[Lenny]

Is it surprising to anyone else that these hulls seem to be failing while many hulls still around from the '60's and '70's are holding strong?

I can NOT believe the thickness of some of the lay-up areas in my '74 X-18. It is astonishing and this is a non-cored area. I am talking pretty darn close to 7/16"... :eek:

Resin is made from petroleum, maybe there is a co-inky-dink here...

[John W]

They only put the radius where the stringer meets the bottom of the boat. The shopr that did the work actually beefed up the glass on the bottom under the engine. The new cracks are above the stringer on the port side. I am guessing ther should have been radaii installed where the stringer meets the hullside? The pics where the gelcoat is popped out are about 2 inches above the stringer and right up against the bulkhead.
There are a few sress cracks where the reapir was done under the engine , as far as I can see. and I did check on the progess and took some pics as it was being done. So far I have probably put about 25 hours on the boat since it was fixed in october of 2006.
Taking the boat to the shop next week to see that the fiberglass gurus have to say.
Thanks,
John W

[boxy]

That's Great I didn't realize the kit was so extensive:eek:. I'm Glad they eliminated the problem for the new boats.:shades:

Then why don't you edit your original post?

[Carl C]

OK, this thread made me go crawl into my engine room for a close up inspection. I cannot see the area where the stringers meet the transom but the forward area seems to be OK. I was about to report that all is OK but climbed under the boat to closely inspect along the chine/strake and the cracks have reappeared under there. I could not get the digicam to focus on them but there are new cracks under the boat:(. Now I don't know what to do. This thread must not go away and I see no need for anyone to edit their posts. There is a real problem here and a major headache for those who must deal with it. Here are pics of my bilge where this repair seems to be OK. The bottom is cracked again.

[Carl C]

I said in another thread that I thought my boat was worthy of putting $80,000 or $90,000 into but now I don't know. It doesn't seem to be able to handle the stock power. If all of the repaired boats fail again should Donzi have to buy them back? Would I want another Donzi? Right now I don't know.

[chappy]

Hey Carl,

Sorry about your cracks. Just an observation, you may want to re-think the three words you have between your user name and your avatar. If anything ever goes to litigation, it may bite ya in your back side. Unfortunately, even if you change it, I'm sure someone has a printed copy. You know how it goes, "Anything you say, can, and will, be used against you............."

[Carl C]

Chappy, I think most can see that that comment is tongue in cheek.

[chappy]

Chappy, I think most can see that that comment is tongue in cheek.

A lawyer wouldn't. Still sorry about the cracks.

[DonziJon]

This cracking obviously might be a problem. One thing I haven't seen commented on is Gelcoat Thickness. Don't know how many people are aware: Gelcoat has NO Strength whatsoever. It is NOT reinforced with anything. The thicker it is layed on, the more likely it will crack. Years ago many boat manufacturers found this out and took it into consideration.

Also discovered was that the reinforced layup did not have to be as thick as originally thought, so layup thickness got thinner. When you do this it becomes more flexible. If you have a more flexible hull, you had better reduce the Gelcoat thickness as well. Does this make sense? :yes: Just sayin..John

[Carl C]

DonziJon, maybe my cracks are cosmetic gel cracks. I think I will need to make Donzi aware of it and see if it gets worse next season. Haven't really had much time to think about it.

[gcarter]

Here is a picture of the TR on which I did a semi modified version of the Donzi reinforcement;

http://www.donzi.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33365&d=1198627518]

It includes larger stringer base radii than Donzi used, thickened epoxy forced under the stringer bases, one layer of Knytex in the bottom under the radii, additional Knytex on top of the radii, another layer of Knytex from stringer top to stringer top, two layers of 34 oz. woven stitch mat which overlaps at the centerline, and pretty much a repeat on the outboard sides of the stringers.
The Donzi repair doesn't include the outsides of the stringers because they're not accessable. Also, since my boat has the closer stringer spacing, I didn't include the mini stringers used on the later boats.
I've considered including a radius on the inside of the chines.
Also, since I had removed the old small transverse frame, I extended the reinforcement forward about 7' which is considerably longer than the Donzi repair.

[Trueser]

DonziJon, maybe my cracks are cosmetic gel cracks. I think I will need to make Donzi aware of it and see if it gets worse next season. Haven't really had much time to think about it.

Carl,
If you have some stress cracks underneath than you have movement/flexing. If yours is still under warranty? I would make the call.

How long ago was yours fixed?

[Carl C]

Carl,
If you have some stress cracks underneath than you have movement/flexing. If yours is still under warranty? I would make the call.

How long ago was yours fixed? It is still under warranty. I took delivery in spring of '05 so should be waranteed until spring 2010. Repairs were done 2 years ago. I will be calling Donzi soon. There should not be cracks, you are right. Cosmetic or not they should not be there. I wonder if there is a defect in the materials or process used and if these hulls are even repairable? John W's boat seems to be cracked on the hull side. What is going on here?

[dwiggl]

I agree with the gel thickness/laminant thickness - flex comments. We saw a lot of this in my days of fiberglass mfg. for automotive use (over a decade ago). If memory serves correctly, the max gel thickness was 30 mils WET. It would shrink about 10% in the cure cycle.

Where you will find the gel too thick is in the corners where it is hard to apply (spray). You can verify this by using a die grinder with a "christmas tree" shaped bit. Grind into the gel where it is cracked to determine how thick the coating is. Don't go into the laminant, just a little bit of the crack. Then wipe it with solvent and you may be able to see if the crack goes deeper into the glass laminant.

Corners are where you will usually see thick gel, and this just happens to be where flex energy is concentrated. ie:stringers.

That laminant repair that you did looks like super stiff to me! Nice work.
Don

[gcarter]

Something that has occured to me is about the gel on the inside of the hull.....
Maybe if the gel were ground out in those highly stressed areas and the inside of the 'glass were painted w/white Bilgekote instead, much of the cosmetic issues would disappear.
It doesn't have to be gelled inside there.

[joseph m. hahnl]

I saw in that tour video.That the stringers are not made out of wood on the new boats:confused:.
When did they start using foam stringers:shocking:???

May be the stringers have to much flex:eek:!!!!

[DonziJon]

I was just wondering.. Is Gelcoat actually used INSIDE a fiberglass hull to smooth things out? For some reason, and I don't know where I got this from.... I always thought the "finish" inside the hull was Epoxy paint. Would Epoxy paint be more flexible than gelcoat?

I remember decades ago when Imron and Awlgrip were coming on the market, competing with each other for use in painting large yachts, there was discussion as to which one was better suited when used in a flexible situation. A friend of mine actually had a couple of his company trucks painted with Imron and I think it didn't work out to well because of cracking and flaking. Just thinking out loud. :lookaroun: John

EDIT: Now I'm thinking Imron is used for Airplane Repaints.

[Carl C]

It's really hard to get my cam to focus on the cracks but here is one pic. You will need to supersize it. The crack continues up the seam of the strake. Both sides are cracked in the same places where they originally cracked. I really didn't need another headache right now. I don't know what to do now. Can this boat be fixed again after the repair kit has been installed? Any suggestions? I will be calling Donzi but would appreciate any advice first. Donzi customer service has been good to me in the past but I just don't know if this hull is viable. I've also put a lot of work into this boat to get it the way I wanted it. At least it's off season.........

[Trueser]

Carl,
Can you take a picture directly above that inside?

Email me @ Trueser@comcast.net and any other full detail pictures you have.

Thanks

[Carl C]

Carl,
Can you take a picture directly above that inside?

Email me @ Trueser@comcast.net and any other full detail pictures you have.

Thanks I just went out and looked and that would be right near where the motor mount is. I'll have to climb back in the bilge and try to get pics. I have company and can't do it now. Thanks, it might be monday before I can do any more on this. I'm getting ready for a busy (:crossfing:) week-end.

[gcarter]

That crack Carl posted is similar to the cracks I found in the same place on the TR. I found the stringer core was sitting on the lower outer corner, a knife edge. Donzi strongly reccomends that the bottom is opened up and the void be filled before the repair takes place.
If that didn't happen, it would crack again. Also, there is no additional reinforcement on the outboard side of the stringers.

[Carl C]

That crack Carl posted is similar to the cracks I found in the same place on the TR. I found the stringer core was sitting on the lower outer corner, a knife edge. Donzi strongly reccomends that the bottom is opened up and the void be filled before the repair takes place.
If that didn't happen, it would crack again. Also, there is no additional reinforcement on the outboard side of the stringers. Well, I have the new truck. Maybe it should go to the factory. Let's not forget the other folks on this thread who have requested help too. I didn't mean to make this all about me.

[zelatore]

Carl,

I don't know who your dealer is/was or who did the repairs (i.e. if they did it or a 3rd party) but being still under warranty & a repeat of a previous repair, this should be a no-cost to you repair. Period. I'm saying that as a service manager, not as a friend.

Donzi may have an argument with the people who did the repair as to who covers the cost - they could claim the work wasn't done to spec and therefor the contractor should cover it. I could well see a pissing match between those two, but you as a customer should never see that going on. You should be able to call your dealer, drop the boat off, then pick it up finished at the appointed time.

I know it's not your dealer's call as to if this is warranty, but they should be fighting for you. That's what they're their for; that's why you paid them their margin when you bought the boat.

I don't think they would replace the hull - that seems extreem, and since you've made 'modifications' even if they did I wouldn't expect them to cover the cost to make a new one match yours. But there is no way they shouldn't cover a full repair at no cost to you.

[DonziJon]

Carl: Didn't you have a rear end hit while on the trailer a couple of years ago that you had real problems getting fixed. Not trying to stir the pot....just trying to refresh my memory. John

[RickSE]

John W.,
The cracks you are showing appear to be from the rear bulkhead, just behind the rear seat. I have similar hairlines on my port side. I'm not worried, just a hard spot and thick finish where hairlines have formed on the inside, none on the outside of the hull; plus they seem to be stable. Your finish coat looks thick.

In reference to DonziJon's comment,
Gel/finish coat thickness has been an issue on my boat. When I took mine in this last time the repair guy felt strongly that the issue was related to the use of putty under the finish coat in the inner lifting strake area. Sure enough he did find putty when he opened mine up & no structural problems. The finish coat needs to be thin so these things can flex and not generate hairlines. The putty was removed on mine, built up with glass and then a thin coat of gel reapplied. My glass guy said I won't see this problem again. I'm still very happy with the workmanship and effort Donzi put into my boat.

[Carl C]

Carl,

I don't know who your dealer is/was or who did the repairs (i.e. if they did it or a 3rd party) but being still under warranty & a repeat of a previous repair, this should be a no-cost to you repair. Period. I'm saying that as a service manager, not as a friend.

Donzi may have an argument with the people who did the repair as to who covers the cost - they could claim the work wasn't done to spec and therefor the contractor should cover it. I could well see a pissing match between those two, but you as a customer should never see that going on. You should be able to call your dealer, drop the boat off, then pick it up finished at the appointed time.

I know it's not your dealer's call as to if this is warranty, but they should be fighting for you. That's what they're their for; that's why you paid them their margin when you bought the boat.

I don't think they would replace the hull - that seems extreem, and since you've made 'modifications' even if they did I wouldn't expect them to cover the cost to make a new one match yours. But there is no way they shouldn't cover a full repair at no cost to you. I don't know how it can be repaired if the first fix failed after 2 seasons. It seems that there may be a deeper problem. The work I did on the underbow area also could not be a factor. I have to wonder if the lower half of the boat needs to be replaced because of some manufacturing or design flaw.


Carl: Didn't you have a rear end hit while on the trailer a couple of years ago that you had real problems getting fixed. Not trying to stir the pot....just trying to refresh my memory. John Yes, the rear end hit damaged the drive, prop, transom assy etc. but no hull damage. The cracking was found when I went to the shop to look at it because of the original thread on this site. It was in no way connected to the accident. It was the classic cracking along the strake. The mechanical work and Progressive ins was a joke. The glass work was sent elsewhere and seems to have been done nicely. The motor mounts seem to be located directly over the worst part of the cracking. I will crawl back in the bilge monday and inspect further. I'm a retailer and will be busy all week-end. I shouldn't be here now, need to get merch ready. I will be a contortionist and inspect further monday and try to post more pics of inside and out. I know Donzi will repair it but how? Will the whole original repair kit need to be cut out and start over? Will it crack again in 2 years. Would it be cheaper in the long run for Donzi to replace the entire hull bottom? Gas is cheap and I have a new truck. I might be able to bite the bullet and deliver it to the factory. Don't know what to do right now but it needs to be fixed before spring. I plan to get the ball rolling next week. I appreciate everyone's help. Should I move this to a new thread? I didn't mean to 'jack this one.