boat or car ??

[zelatore]

This weekend was our last track day of the year with the BMW club. Back to Sears Point (Infinion Raceway for you newbies).

There was a 'chance of rain'. Uh, yeah. Chance of a couple inches of rain! The first of the season. Saturday started with light rain but not too bad. I left my street tires on and hoped it would clear so I could put on the R1's. Nope. Instead it got worse. Much worse. They ended up cancelling half the sessions as there was so much standing water it was down right scarry. Sliding is one thing - hydroplaning toward the wall in 12 is quite another.

[zelatore]

Sunday looked better. We had spent Saturday night at a local hotel drying everything out (btw-Dr. Dan's cooler bags work as well at the track as they do in the boat). It had rained off and on all night, and we had light rain in the morning sessions but it was very minor and the standing water/flowing rivers of mud were gone with a dry line begining to form. I decided to break out the R1's even though the have basically 0 tread. My first session was an excercise in tip-toeing around. I don't think I ever got my foot to the carpet. Turn 2, a right-hand turn at the top of the hill over a crest, was particularly touchy. Even at 2000 rpm in 3rd gear you had to _just_ breath on the throttle or the rear would step out.

[zelatore]

By the afternoon sessions on Sunday, things had pretty much dried out. Only a few puddles and they were easily avoided. Pretty much back to the standard dry line.

This is the second time I've driven Sears (this is the first year I've gotten back on track after about 10 years lost in the wilderness). For whatever reason, I really suck at this place. Maybe it's too much of a rhythm track for me as it’s always moving with no real straights, maybe it's just a mental block, I don't know. I think I did maybe 2 good laps all day. Still, that won’t stop me from heading back there again in the spring.

Of all the tracks we ran with the club this year (Sears, Laguna, and Thunderhill) I really have to vote Thunderhill my favorite. In the past, I’ve run at Mid-Ohio, Nelson Ledges, Gratten, Gingerman, & Road Atlanta. Although those were a long time ago and with a much slower/lower tech car (Alfa Romeo GTV6) I’d say Thunderhill was as much fun as any of them.

Next year I’m going to try to run Reno-Finley Raceway with the Reno chapter as well.

Of course, this poses the ultimate question: how to allocate limited resources of time and money…more toys for the car (check out that body roll!) or more toys for the boat (hello? Mr. Whipple? Is that you?)

[zelatore]

Of note, on Saturday we didn't have any big problems. There were maybe 4 spinners, but nobody hit anything. I think everybody was timid enough in the downpour to just take it easy.

Sunday wasn't so good. Mixed conditions are the worst, and toward the end of the day a nice Z4 put two wheels off in 10 (THE corner on this track) and ended up flat-siding the entire driver's side of the car on a tire barrier. We had 2 or 3 others put cars off the track, but no other damage.

[BUIZILLA]

is that a paddle wheel shift?

[zelatore]

is that a paddle wheel shift?

no.

Correction: NO!

On track, I like the idea of the SMG transmission, or other automated manual transmissions. But not so much in day to day driving. Not only do they take some of the fun out of driving, but even the latest generations are still having issues with things like parking-lot maneuvers or up-hill starts from time to time. They are much better than they were only a few years ago, but not to my taste. And they cost more.

But they are faster and easier on the track.

As for automatics that can be shifted manually via paddles or a lever - NO NO NO! I’ve never driven one that was worth a crap! Soft, sloppy, delayed shifts, occasional up-shifts on their own...Even the latest of these still take me back to driving my '79 Regal turbo and 'manually' shifting the old turbo-350 through the gears.

Of course, looking at the pics, I guess I can see why you asked. In one pic I've got three fingers from my left hand loose from the wheel and I'm only holding on with my thumb and first finger. I can't say I did that on purpose, although that shot was from my first session on the "slick" tires ( http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+R1 ) so everything was VERY light touches. I've always tried to avoid the death-grip on the wheel, and I suppose this was an unconscious attempt to get some feel.

[mrfixxall]

Did you do the upgrades on it yet? exhaust & chip is soppose tobe good for a xtra 100 hp:wink:

[handfulz28]

In one pic I've got three fingers from my left hand loose from the wheel and I'm only holding on with my thumb and first finger.

Ahh, the beauty of power steering combined with a confidence inspiring platform. :yes: Not to mention it was probably a lower risk corner than others I bet. I've got in-car video of me doing the same thing, with my pinkies off the wheel like I was drinking tea.

As for car vs boat, the boat is a better bang for the buck as far as variable costs go. Perhaps more money upfront, but otherwise you're pretty much only paying for gas while you use it. Add up what you spent for hotel, track fees, tire costs, time spent traveling for the weekend. It's a completely different reward being on-track vs on the water; you can't put a price on that. But as $$$ per hour are concerned, the boat is probably easier on the wallet than track days.

[zelatore]

Did you do the upgrades on it yet? exhaust & chip is soppose tobe good for a xtra 100 hp:wink:

Nothing yet except the wheels and tires. I'm running the BFG R1's, 245/40-18s on Breyton Race GTS's, 18x8.5" I forget the exact numbers, but I dropped close to 10 lbs a corner from the stock staggered wheels and Bridgestone run-flats. Those things are H E A V Y! Plus I went to a 'square' set-up to help eliminate some of the stock understeer and let me rotate tires for track use.

(oh, and I run a set of Hawk pads on the track but might try something different next year)

Since it's a daily driver with about 20K on it just this year, and we only plan to keep it for 100K/5 years, I don't want to put too much into it that I can't get out when it's time to move on. The next improvement will likely be adjustable camber plates for the front. Fairly cheap, and once I get them dialed in I'll be able to self-adjust the front camber to about -3* for track days then take it back to maybe -.5* for the street. BMW, like most manufacturers, sets the cars up for a lot of understeer in stock form.

I may do the software update as well, but if I do I'll have to upgrade the oil cooler. Theoretically the '08s don't need it, but running at Thunderhill in 100+ degrees I overheated the oil with the stock motor. And really, the car makes a ton of power as-is. Yeah, more power is always good, but really it's not needed on the track since this isn’t wheel to wheel racing. I'd get more use out of it on the street probably. Heck, in a drag race this thing's already faster than any of the M3's up till the V8 cars. I'd kill to have this motor in a Z4 coupe body!

[FISHIN SUCKS]

I have always wanted to run Laguna and Sears, but the farthest West I have made it was Las Vegas in '04 (took 2 1st's there so it was worth the trip).

Is that what everyone is running is R1's in your class? I can remember running on those things in the mid '90's and they sucked for tire wear (constantly rotating). With any luck, they re-engineered the things, cause Hoosiers are expensive. I switched to Hoosiers and never went back although I did drive another guy's car on Kumho's race tire and felt like I was on marbles.

I am with handfulz on the boat or car thing, but my thing is that I got tired of sweating my brains out at a hot track (Sebring is extremely hot in August)and kept thinking I could be in a cool refreshing lake instead! Besides, Barbi and the kids would rather stay at home than go to the track so I was usually just with my club members. But with you, you are always around the boat scene, so the racing thing is probably a nice break for you. I see two numbers on the car, so does that mean your better half is into it as well:confused:? If so, that helps when it comes time to feed the car more $$$.

Good Luck Don and remember, 2nd place is the 1st Loser:wink:, be fast or be last!

[zelatore]

I'm not racing the BMW; it's just track time to go out and play. Yeah, there's some rivalries among friends, but it's always kept on the back burner or the club will loose it's insurance.

When I had the Alfa I used to do some time trials; best I managed was 2nd in class at the AROC nationals at Mid Ohio. I don't remember what year that was, but it was 10-12 years ago.

Back then I ran BFG Comp TA R1's. They're long-gone now, replaced by the G-force TA R1. I just got them this summer and haven't put that much time on them since I only got out 4 times this year. They've held up pretty well so far, and stick like crazy on a big heavy car like this. A lot of guys are running Kuhmo's for track tires, although some of the Porsche guys have been running Michelin’s Pilot Cup R-compound tire. It's big money though, so most guys aren't using it.

A friend of mine used Hoosiers (I really want to use Hoosiers since I'm from Indiana, but couldn't make a case for it this time) and loved them on a G35. He got a lot of time out of them and had nothing but good things to say about them.

And yes, Michele drives too. This is her first year, other than a few laps she took in my Alfa way back when at Nelson Ledges. She's been running in the slowest novice group, but she's getting to where she's one of the faster cars in the group and will probably move up a level next year. I don't know if she wants to move up or not as she's not exactly seeing the red mist or really pushing the car, but last weekend she started complaining about being held up by slower cars. That's always a good sign...:wink:

[FISHIN SUCKS]

Definitely a good sign! I wish Barbi would show an interest, but I can't even get her to go down the dragstrip, let alone an autocross or road course. My parents raced in the 70's and my mom even held track record in her class at Road Atlanta (name retired, never broken) and set the drag record in '75 (record broken in '77).

Ah yes, Nelson Ledges. Unfortunately the track needs a resurface, bad, and has for years. But with all the homeowners around there now, so many restrictions have been imposed that the track owners I think are just milkin it for what it's worth. Heck, when I showed up there in '06, I forgot my mufflers and almost didn't get to run. I was definitely the noisiest one there, but they figured one car out of about 70 total would be okay, I guess.

[mrfixxall]

Zelatore, does the name mike besic ring a bell to you? alfa tech that ran the salt flats in a alfa..

[zelatore]

Oh yeah, I know the name Besic Motorsports. He's based in the mid-west as was I at the time.

He's turned out some impressive pieces. I seem to recall he was big on turbos at the time; I suspect he still is.

I seem to recall running at a national convention at Road Atlanta and following him around in a morning warm-up. There was a slower car in front of us, and since this was just the first outing of the day for practice there wasn't supposed to be any passing. Mike got fed up and passed him - I was just a green kid, so I figured 'hey, it's go time!' and stood on it too. At the end of the session, the stuarts had words for both of us.

The guy builts art.


And Nelson Ledges needed paving 12 years ago! But it was a cheap track for a small club to rent. Do they still run the 24 hrs there?

[FISHIN SUCKS]

You know, I am not sure if they still do or not. Something tells me they do.

Corvette Cleveland has always held an event there for years every Memorial Day weekend dating back into the 60's. Barbi got some videos and pictures of me there that are pretty cool (if I may say) from turns 9-11. She even got a video of my donut I delivered up comin out of 10 :nilly::bonk:(oops). I had heard that they had put pylons up where the potholes were, but I never saw them when I was there. Must be management invested in some bags asphalt patch:lookaroun:

Say Indiana boy, did you ever run Putnam Park? Great track (1.8 mile, 10 turns), been there since '91 I believe. The layout is very similar to Roebling Road only Roebling is flat. Ever since IRP was bought by NHRA or IHRA, they have let the road coarse go to pot so now we all run Putnam.

[zelatore]

I never ran Putnam even though it was the closest track to me - actually it was the only track in the state at the time (may still be).

Mostly I was running with the Alfa club, who didn't have an Indiana chapter. I belonged to the Louisville chapter, which was small, and ususally ran with the Detroit or Ohio chapters.

Speaking of Corvettes - man, those things are fast. There are always a few Z06's that come to the BMW events out here (along with all sorts of other hardware as well - everything from Aston's and Ferraris to a Skyline).

I recall the first 'vette I got to see on-track with me at Gingerman; it as a GrandSport C4. And he hauled a$$ around our little Alfas.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

You would be right Don, Putnam is the only active road course left in Indiana. The only other tracks that are close are Mid Ohio, Gingerman, Grattan, Gateway, MIS, and Nelson Ledges. Mid Ohio and MIS are so expensive that it is tough to get a sanctioned event there and have a club actually break even.

I have never run with any Alfa's on road course, just parking lot crap. And, sorry if I offend, but I hate running in SCCA events. Maybe other regions are better than the one I am in, but these people literally have no clue:nilly: how to organize an event and yet they have been doing it for years. Mind you, this is auto-x stuff where you only get 5-6 runs in a full day with maybe 70 drivers. Take an NCCC (Nat'l Council of Corvette Clubs) event and we'll make 14 runs in 3/4 of a day with the same amount of drivers. Okay Don, I'm done venting. Hope I didn't offend ya, I still want to go on a boat ride when I hit the bay next time:).

[mrfixxall]

Oh yeah, I know the name Besic Motorsports. He's based in the mid-west as was I at the time.
He's turned out some impressive pieces. I seem to recall he was big on turbos at the time; I suspect he still is.
I seem to recall running at a national convention at Road Atlanta and following him around in a morning warm-up. There was a slower car in front of us, and since this was just the first outing of the day for practice there wasn't supposed to be any passing. Mike got fed up and passed him - I was just a green kid, so I figured 'hey, it's go time!' and stood on it too. At the end of the session, the stuarts had words for both of us.
The guy builts art.
And Nelson Ledges needed paving 12 years ago! But it was a cheap track for a small club to rent. Do they still run the 24 hrs there?

I know mike really well,his shop is across the street from mine..when i get the big boats here and i fire them up he always comes running over to see what im working on:) i dont know if that race is still going on,ill ask mike..

[zelatore]

Maybe other regions are better than the one I am in, but these people literally have no clue:nilly: how to organize an event and yet they have been doing it for years. Mind you, this is auto-x stuff where you only get 5-6 runs in a full day with maybe 70 drivers.
What SCCA region are you in? My brother is in Ft. Wayne, and used to occasionally come out to a local SCCA autocross, but he's pretty much given up on them over the same complaints you had. 4 or 5 runs for a full day; a few 'old timers' who think they own the place, etc.

I have heard much better things from my friends who autoX in the Louisville region though, and also from a friend in Milwaukee.

Me? I just get lost in all those cones. Although I did have an instructor at a BMW driver’s school ask if I was an autocrosser because he thought I was ‘always wide open or full stop’. :bonk: (I do sometimes suffer from a lack of smoothness)

[BigGrizzly]

Well ZEL, I have only run Sears point and Laguna on motorcycles but my old rider Greg Smrz's son does the car thing.

[zelatore]

(now stop thinking dirty!)

Just got this pic and story from a friend back in the mid-west...as he put it, this was a pay-off to haveing an engineering degree...

^^^^^^^^^^
Hey guys,

If someone were to tell you, with a tone of conviction in their voice, that they planned on putting 10 gallons of fuel in a 5 gallon jug, you'd probably.............

1) Think they misspoke, and offer them a chance to correct it.

2) Think they had been sniffing glue. All weekend.

3) Think you were about to witness the first and last attempt of an ill-fated magic trick (grab your camera).

4) Grin politely, nod your approval of their effort, and walk away thinking you just spoke with the dumbest individual you've met in the last 10 years.


Well, over the past month, I got plenty of polite grins when I told people that I was going to the track taking 3 cars loaded on my 2-car trailer. Last Friday morning, I got a phone call from a person who had obvious doubts of my "3 on 2" math. Within 5 minutes, 2 more people within walking distance questioned the "3 on 2" reasoning as the second car was being loaded.

I offer the attached pic to illustrate that an engineering degree is a wonderful thing. Brett Baker, Mike Stoiber, and myself went to Barber Motorsport Park this weekend and ran with the Cherokee Chapter of the Audi Club. And yes, each of us had our own car! :-)

Special thanks to Brett for researching the required vehicle dimensions while Big Red and I ran about the province of Quebec, and for helping me finish the required trailer wiring on Friday morning.

[FISHIN SUCKS]

What SCCA region are you in?
Same region as your brother, Fort Wayne region which is in CENDIV (Central Division SCCA). I live just on the north side of FT Wayne in Leo. Your brother is absolutely right regarding this organization.


I have some avi video at Nelson that I tried to upload, but it's not letting me. Thought you might appreciate camper trailers that have been there forever.