Thinking ahead - need advice

[Conquistador_del_mar]

I will be having to fabricate an engine hatch and a few other pieces on my upcoming project. Does anyone have a recommendation on the core material I might use? I want the parts to be light weight, but strong and preferably rot resistant. Is this as good a choice of materials as any of you have used? Bill

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=1586&familyName=Divinycell+H80+Grid+Scored

[gcarter]

Divinycel has been around for decades. I've not used it but have been tempted to. The reason I haven't is doing repairs, I wasn't sure it was wise to change materials from the original.

[Marlin275]

My brother used Divinycell to build my Dads trimaran.
It was the best stuff around 15 years ago.

[mike o]

I have some if you want to see some.. I would not use the scored type in the hatch. Google airex, or go to composites one web and look under core materials. Id use lantor soric (2mm) in my canoes to stiffen the floor. Really stiff and uses hardly any resin.. Its an infusion core from the aerospace ind. I can send ya some of that also. I can show you how to use it without infusing it. The hatchs have some pretty big folks standing on them and have to be beyond stiff. OEM probably has plywood, looks like what was used in my 95 16 (not sure) and inexpensive. Plus they float so I have read here....

[gcarter]

OEM are end grain balsa and core-mat.
Nothing to write home about......

[MOP]

Being an old USAF air frame repairman there is nothing that holds a candle to honey comb, our air craft of all types depend on it. It is the lightest strongest and most ridged of all, if it were not the aircraft industry wound use foam cores. We have a project going at the yard right now on a big cat where added strength is a must there are using Nida-Core it is needed to put up with two 1,200 HP blower engine. I have worked with quite a few types this stuff is unbelievable.

Check it out this is the marine stuff: http://www.nida-core.com/english/

Phil

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Divinycel has been around for decades. I've not used it but have been tempted to. The reason I haven't is doing repairs, I wasn't sure it was wise to change materials from the original.

Thanks, George
In my case I will need to fabricate floors, bulkheads, and an engine cover so I was hoping to find an easy to use, strong, and light weight material that would be better than the plywood or balsa wood core materials. I am only starting to do some research.


My brother used Divinycell to build my Dads trimaran.
It was the best stuff around 15 years ago.

Has the trimaran held up to the point where you would highly recommend using Divinycell?


I have some if you want to see some.. I would not use the scored type in the hatch. Google airex, or go to composites one web and look under core materials. Id use lantor soric (2mm) in my canoes to stiffen the floor. Really stiff and uses hardly any resin.. Its an infusion core from the aerospace ind. I can send ya some of that also. I can show you how to use it without infusing it. The hatchs have some pretty big folks standing on them and have to be beyond stiff. OEM probably has plywood, looks like what was used in my 95 16 (not sure) and inexpensive. Plus they float so I have read here....

Thanks for the offer, Mike
Since I have to make the floors and bulkheads using a flat core material, I would not use the scored Divinycell for that - only the engine cover that has an arch or contour in it. Why would it not be the right choice for the contoured engine cover?
I saw that two types of Lantor Soric is available:

Two styles of SORIC are available:

Soric° SF has smaller honeycomb cells for greater conformability and higher quality surface finish.
Soric° XF with larger cells and channels for increased resin flow.

Soric° is not meant for use as a print-blocker in hand lay-up applications.

Which one would be your recomendation? Any other information about it would be appreciated. What is meant by the last line? Also, does the term infusion mean the penetration of the resin into the core material when applying the fiberglass? Bill

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Being an old USAF air frame repairman there is nothing that holds a candle to honey comb, our air craft of all types depend on it. It is the lightest strongest and most ridged of all, if it were not the aircraft industry wound use foam cores. We have a project going at the yard right now on a big cat where added strength is a must there are using Nida-Core it is needed to put up with two 1,200 HP blower engine. I have worked with quite a few types this stuff is unbelievable.

Check it out this is the marine stuff: http://www.nida-core.com/english/

Phil

Phil,
Thanks for the information and link. It looks like that material would work great for the floors and bulkheads - in particular using the finished sheets:

http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=NIDA_H8PP_finished

It also looks like the Nidacore honey comb core would work great for the curved engine cover. Do you think the finished sheets would be strong enough on their own to make floors and bulkheads or would more layers of fiberglass be necessary? Cool sounding material. Bill

[mike o]

The soric absorbs the resin only in the hexcell part of the material thru infusion, one has more (smaller) hex cells, so it contoures alittle better. I used coremat for 15yrs and swithched after r and d-ing the soric by hand..... Infusion is where the resin is sucked in under vacuum from the stern to the bow for example, so when the resin reaches the bow the complete laminate is saturated with resin and the flow is turned off. Then you increase the vacuum to remove the exess resin. The non hexcell part of the soric absorbs only enough resin to bond to whats above and below(about 10%) so it cant delaminate. Soric has a different top and bottom side to it .I have all kinds of stuff here at the shop I can send so you can have it in your hand...I might have some nida core around. I build really thin hull in my boats. Which actually is alot harder than big boats really. They have to as light as possiable aprox 50 lbs (16' long, 35" beam), be really stiff in the floor (2, 400lb dudes sitting in the seats)... and not break when grandma drops it off the car in the driveway... Dont get me wrong ,the forces of a big block 22c airborne landing back on the water is a huge force.... but the laminate isnt 1/16' thick like mine. Big boats, you can make as heavy and thick as you want.... all the cores have there attribiutes. A 13' boston whalers stiffness is from all the foam in the floor. There hulls are pretty thin glass wise. I know you restore some nice stuff down there. Im not sure what you doing right now . I thought you would like so have some in hand samples of some of this core stuff... If you like, before you went out and bought some thing that might not work or be hard to work with ect. This stuffs not cheap.
Everybody sends me samples of all this stuff. I can send you some. The bottom line.... is in older boats where the old school materials where used in the hulls... the weight you would save trying to new school a few parts is not gong to save you much in the net gain. And, considering the learning curve useing these new cores in(core)ectly and having a failure which would suck big time. Theres a million ways to build anything. The high tec stuff is in the infusion - vacuum bag aircraft industry... which is cutting edge and has ended up in my smallboat boat building industury for 20 years. Its because there small and the rd mistakes are small $. The hi-pro boats have been looking at these methods where folks will pay the $$..... but the pleasure boats, where folks go to a boats show and look at the price tags, are more competitive between a sea ray or a 4 winnsfor example. The difference between having cracks in the engine compartment or not in a 22c is $30-40 in materials in (there) to over build.. I think DWIGHT, AIR 22 is REALLY smart to beef UP his stringers (for example) with the power up grade on his boat (:wink::wink::wink::wink:). You, can just change to a vinylester resin without any cores and gain alot of strengh also with biaxes (Mr C knows!!!).... then theres epoxy ect, ect. Pm me your address. Ill send you some stuff. If I was ever gonna buy a new 22 classic with the big power...I would upgrade to their high end hull construction for sure. Regards. Michael,, ps. ya do some kool stuff, own so kool boats..:wink:
rangercanoe.com is my stuff... pic's of a r+d hull of military S glass, skin coat (no gel) tinted epoxy transulcent hull 40 lbs

[Conquistador_del_mar]

The soric absorbs the resin only in the hexcell part of the material thru infusion, one has more (smaller) hex cells, so it contoures alittle better. I used coremat for 15yrs and swithched after r and d-ing the soric by hand..... Infusion is where the resin is sucked in under vacuum from the stern to the bow for example, so when the resin reaches the bow the complete laminate is saturated with resin and the flow is turned off. Then you increase the vacuum to remove the exess resin. The non hexcell part of the soric absorbs only enough resin to bond to whats above and below(about 10%) so it cant delaminate. Soric has a different top and bottom side to it .I have all kinds of stuff here at the shop I can send so you can have it in your hand...I might have some nida core around. I build really thin hull in my boats. Which actually is alot harder than big boats really. They have to as light as possiable aprox 50 lbs (16' long, 35" beam), be really stiff in the floor (2, 400lb dudes sitting in the seats)... and not break when grandma drops it off the car in the driveway... dont get me wrong the forces of a big block 22c airborne landing back on the water is a huge force.... but the laminate isnt 1/16' thick like mine, you can make as heavy and thick as you want.... all the cores have there atribiutes. A 13' boston whalers stiffness is from all the foam in the floor. There hulls are pretty thin glass wise. I know you restore some nice stuff down there. Im not sure what you doing right now . I thought you would like so have some in hand samples of some of this core stuff... if you like before you went out and bought some thing that might not work or be hard to work with ect. This stuffs not cheap.
Everybody sends me samples of all this stuff. I can send you some. The bottom line.... is in older boats where the old school materials where used in the hulls... the weight you would save trying to new school a few parts is not gong to save you much in the net gain. And, considering the learning curve useing these new cores in(core)ectly and having a failure which would suck big time. Theres a million ways to build anything. The high tec stuff is in the infusion - vacuum bag aircraft industry... which is cutting edge and has ended up in my smallboat boat building industury for 20 years. Its because there small and the rd mistakes are small $. The hi-pro boats have been looking at these methods where folks will pay the $$..... but the pleasure boats, where folks go to a boats show and look at the price tags, are more competitive between a sea ray or a 4 winnsfor example. The difference between having cracks in the engine compartment or not in a 22c is $30-40 in materials in (there) to over build.. I think DWIGHT, AIR 22 is REALLY smart to beef UP his stringers (for example) with the power up grade on his boat (:wink::wink::wink::wink:). You, can just change to a vinylester resin without any cores and gain alot of strengh also with biaxes (Mr C knows!!!).... then theres epoxy ect, ect. Pm me your address. Ill send you some stuff. If I was ever gonna buy a new 22 classic with the big power...I would upgrade to there high end hull construction for sure. Regards. Michael,, ps. ya do some kool stuff, own so kool boats..:wink:
rangercanoe.com is my stuff... pic's of a r+d hull of military S glass, skin coat (no gel) tinted expoxy transulcent hull 40 lbs

Mike,
What great information! Since I used to do fiberglass repair work, I can say that almost every repair I had to do (short of a crash) was due directly to the manufacturer's oversight or lack of materials used. Like you said, a very small amount of money up front in the manufacturing would prevent most of the rot and cracking problems. Most people would be shocked at how poorly so many understructures and floors are built!
I spent some time looking at your website. You build some great canoes! I used to go to Quetico Provencial Park in Canada every summer to go canoeing in the wilderness for up to 30 days at an outing starting in 1966. It was always a pleasure to rent the newer and lighter weight canoes as they progressed the technology since we had to portage as much as 2 miles on some of the portages between the lakes. You get to understand the many subtle differences between canoes when you travel a few hundred miles in all kinds of wind and water conditions. I have an old Sawyer racing 18' canoe right now that has a fairly radical bow and stern, but it would not be a good choice in Canada with the low freeboard. If you have any interest, I could send you a picture of it. I digress (as usual).
You make a good point in that my learning curve might not be well spent since the weight savings on the older boats would not be much overall, but I do like to experiment and learn new technologies. OK, I now see that infusion is using the vacuum bag method that I have seen on TV's show "How is it Made" or something like that (my fiance and I love that show). I think I would still like to try using some of the newer materials to get my feet wet. I will PM you my address. You are going over the top. Thanks, Bill

[MOP]

Phil,
Thanks for the information and link. It looks like that material would work great for the floors and bulkheads - in particular using the finished sheets:

http://boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=NIDA_H8PP_finished

It also looks like the Nidacore honey comb core would work great for the curved engine cover. Do you think the finished sheets would be strong enough on their own to make floors and bulkheads or would more layers of fiberglass be necessary? Cool sounding material. Bill

It is very good for floors & bulkheads, but like Poodle said care needs to be taken with all coring where you will be attaching things after the build.

[Marlin275]

Has the trimaran held up to the point where you would highly recommend using Divinycell?



The boat was sold to an individual that has sailed it constantly in Florida and the Bahamas and with minimal maintenance.
I have heard of no material problems.
Great technology!

[BigGrizzly]

MikeO, looked at your web site. Really good stuff. Artisans are not dead

[Conquistador_del_mar]

The boat was sold to an individual that has sailed it constantly in Florida and the Bahamas and with minimal maintenance.
I have heard of no material problems.
Great technology!

That is a good testamonial - thanks.

[Marlin275]

Bill,
I checked with my brother about the materials to make sure
I was giving you the right advice and here is his reply:

Any of the more modern foams ( Divinycell, Airex, or Klegecell ) would be better than antique plywood.
These foams are best used with unidirectional glass and epoxy resin.
And there are 1000 other variables that enter into a proper dissertation on modern lamination.

[Conquistador_del_mar]

Bill,
I checked with my brother about the materials to make sure
I was giving you the right advice and here is his reply:

Any of the more modern foams ( Divinycell, Airex, or Klegecell ) would be better than antique plywood.
These foams are best used with unidirectional glass and epoxy resin.
And there are 1000 other variables that enter into a proper dissertation on modern lamination.

Thanks for the information and confirmation. I will be ordering some core material fairly soon so I wanted to get my ducks in a row. Right now I am awaiting some samples that MikeO has generously volunteered to send to me. Bill

[mike o]

Thanks for the information and confirmation. I will be ordering some core material fairly soon so I wanted to get my ducks in a row. Right now I am awaiting some samples that MikeO has generously volunteered to send to me. Bill :yes:. I mailed several core samples, a few test panels, plus,:wink:..... on monday.:yes:

[Conquistador_del_mar]

:yes:. I mailed several core samples, a few test panels, plus,:wink:..... on monday.:yes:

Mike,
I can't thank you enough! It looks like I will finally be able to learn and use a much better technology in core materials.