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DonziJon
10-22-2008, 06:42 PM
I have NEVER owned a gun. I am considering the purchase of one very soon for the protection of my home. I'm thinking a 12 Guage Pump Shotgun might be the answer. Reason being... a 12 Guage Pump has a certain "Intimidation Factor".

Any Ideas out there?? John

mike o
10-22-2008, 07:37 PM
:biggrin.: not in the house, make a bloody mess. 40 caliber is just fine.:biggrin.:

Rootsy
10-22-2008, 07:59 PM
longer the barrel, the easier it is to disarm you... inside of 21 feet an assailant can be on top of you before you can use a firearm.

A quality defensive handgun and some instruction on how to properly use it. Secondary self defense classes and or training is also important. A lot of people will say get a shotgun but IMHO it isn't what I want to have in my hands when things go bump in the night. It has it's pluses and minus' but tends to tie up both of your hands. I prefer a good handgun, with appropriate defensive ammunition in one hand and a small bright LED light with a momentary button in the other.

Personally, I carry, more or less daily an S&W M&P 40 Compact. When I have retired for the night it resides in the headboard of the bed... Along with my S&W Ladysmith J Frame revolver, chambered for 357 Magnum. I also am a bit of an overachiever and residing also within reach once out of bed is my Model 87 Featherlight Ithaca 12 ga. wearing a short ported slug barrel. There are 5 rounds of 3" 00 buck in the shell holder on the butt stock. At point blank range it will cut a clean 6" diameter hole through plywood.... or drywall...

But opinions are like bungholes... everyone has one...

Donziweasel
10-22-2008, 08:09 PM
Handgun like Rootsy said. I have a .45 revolver next to the bed, a 9mm under the bed. Even Boo Boo has a Titanium .41.

DonziJon
10-22-2008, 08:40 PM
I'm not lookin to Kill anybody. I figure one shot over their shoulder through the screen door ..(BIG Whoa Factor...Noise, Fire, and Smoke) and an imediate Kachunk from my pump action for shot two....which will be closer to the target if thay don't Stand Down...(I love those military terms) will leave the Perp ready to move on to easier pickins.

Can't believe I said that. That's CRAZY ..................A Crazy man with a gun.......Let's get outa here YO... Postal John

Rootsy
10-22-2008, 08:47 PM
I'm not lookin to Kill anybody. I figure one shot over their shoulder through the screen door ..(BIG Whoa Factor...Noise, Fire, and Smoke) and an imediate Kachunk from my pump action for shot two....which will be closer to the target if thay don't Stand Down...(I love those military terms) will leave the Perp ready to move on to easier pickens.
Can't believe I said that. That's CRAZY ..................A Crazy man with a gun.......Let's get outa here YO... Postal John


Don't take this the wrong way Jon. I am being absolutely serious here... If you are going to use a firearm in self defense... you MUST be absolutely cold heartedly ready to take a life. If you are going to introduce a firearm into a SD situation you pull that trigger, aiming at center of mass, until the threat ceases. Whether that is the aggressor lying dead or wounded in front of you or running away down the street.

Stray lead "over the intruders shoulder" is lead that may possibly hit an innocent bystander... bullets can and will pass through walls...

If a perp attacks you with intent on harming or killing you or your loved ones... Why would you want to allow him the opportunity to prey upon other innocent people in the world?????????

In a self defense situation there are no "warning shots"... period. If you must draw your weapon, it is time to use it... because you are in immanent danger of life and limb... If you are not willing to accept this... you have no business employing a firearm in your life for such situations...

get a ball bat or pepper spray... or a big dog with an intimidating bark...

Self defense and firearms are not a matter to be taken lightly. This is one of the most serious decisions anyone can make in their lives. As serious as a heartbeat. Employing a weapon in any situation short of immanent threat of life and limb will likely result in you spending significant time in both criminal and civil court... 5 to 6 figure legal bills and very possibly time in the gray bar hotel...

BlownCrewCab
10-22-2008, 08:52 PM
My wife has a "PinK" .38 Special (Made by Charter Arms) in her car, a stainless .38 Special (Taurus) on her side of the bed, and I have a Ruger SP101 .38 special on my side of the bed, the 12 gauge is in the next room unloaded in a gun rack.

Donzi Vol
10-22-2008, 09:08 PM
Don't take this the wrong way Jon. I am being absolutely serious here... If you are going to use a firearm in self defense... you MUST be absolutely cold heartedly ready to take a life. If you are going to introduce a firearm into a SD situation you pull that trigger, aiming at center of mass, until the threat ceases. Whether that is the aggressor lying dead or wounded in front of you or running away down the street.

Stray lead "over the intruders shoulder" is lead that may possibly hit an innocent bystander... bullets can and will pass through walls...

If a perp attacks you with intent on harming or killing you or your loved ones... Why would you want to allow him the opportunity to prey upon other innocent people in the world?????????

In a self defense situation there are no "warning shots"... period. If you must draw your weapon, it is time to use it... because you are in immanent danger of life and limb... If you are not willing to accept this... you have no business employing a firearm in your life for such situations...

get a ball bat or pepper spray... or a big dog with an intimidating bark...

Self defense and firearms are not a matter to be taken lightly. This is one of the most serious decisions anyone can make in their lives. As serious as a heartbeat. Employing a weapon in any situation short of immanent threat of life and limb will likely result in you spending significant time in both criminal and civil court... 5 to 6 figure legal bills and very possibly time in the gray bar hotel...

Rootsy, you took the words right out of my...well my typing. As rough as it sounds, you must be ready to kill if you're ready to pick up that gun. I don't have a carry permit, but I darn share have a pistol in my bedroom. I figure that if someone has the stones to break into my home, then they're probably ready to harm/kill me first.

As for what to buy, I would go with a handgun. Think about it for a second. If you're talking home protection, you're probably talking a distance of 15 yards max (more likely to be 5-7). 6-10 rounds should be enough to complete your mission with some proper training and practice (of course with a pistol you can have all the extra magazines you want:yes:). In my opinion, shotguns are cool, but a little much for the living room.

Good luck with your choice!

-David

DonziJon
10-22-2008, 09:13 PM
Don't take this the wrong way Jon. I am being absolutely serious here... If you are going to use a firearm in self defense... you MUST be absolutely cold heartedly ready to take a life. If you are going to introduce a firearm into a SD situation you pull that trigger, aiming at center of mass, until the threat ceases. Whether that is the aggressor lying dead or wounded in front of you or running away down the street.

Stray lead "over the intruders shoulder" is lead that may possibly hit an innocent bystander... bullets can and will pass through walls...

If a perp attacks you with intent on harming or killing you or your loved ones... Why would you want to allow him the opportunity to prey upon other innocent people in the world?????????

In a self defense situation there are no "warning shots"... period. If you must draw your weapon, it is time to use it... because you are in immanent danger of life and limb... If you are not willing to accept this... you have no business employing a firearm in your life for such situations...

get a ball bat or pepper spray... or a big dog with an intimidating bark...

Self defense and firearms are not a matter to be taken lightly. This is one of the most serious decisions anyone can make in their lives. As serious as a heartbeat. Employing a weapon in any situation short of immanent threat of life and limb will likely result in you spending significant time in both criminal and civil court... 5 to 6 figure legal bills and very possibly time in the gray bar hotel...

Not taking it the wrong way at all Rootsy. I know you're serious. I'm half serious myself. I try to look at the bright side.

A number of years ago, there was an incident in the Bahamas on a Yacht. I was keenly interested in such things because at the time I did a bit of offshore sailing myself.

A sailboat was putting along minding it's own business when a suspitious gunboat (or whatever) came up alongside the sailboat brandishing firearms and indicating they wanted to board. The yacht owner was at the wheel and his wife was down below ...out of sight. She got out a long gun of some kind and popped out of the fore hatch with the gun and was instantly blown away by the "pirates".
So you have to weigh the odds. Postal John

cutwater
10-22-2008, 09:44 PM
Well said Rootsy.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-23-2008, 01:57 AM
I have NEVER owned a gun. I am considering the purchase of one very soon for the protection of my home. I'm thinking a 12 Guage Pump Shotgun might be the answer. Reason being... a 12 Guage Pump has a certain "Intimidation Factor".

Any Ideas out there?? John

In my case, the most important thing I want if an intruder breaks in my house is to get him (them) out - preferably with no loss of life. Figuring the intruder does not want to be maimed or killed, I believe in letting him know that I have a weapon. There is no more sure fire way of doing that than loading a pump or automatic shotgun with the distinctive sound they make. That being said, I keep a Colt Python 357 loaded alternately with birdshot and high grain hollow points in case things get ugly. Quite honestly, an alarm system should be the first step for both fire and intrusion protection followed by the weapons one feels safe handling. By the way, my insurance company reduces the premium by 10% since I have a fire/intrusion alarm system. My two cents, Bill

Cuda
10-23-2008, 06:54 AM
Don't buy a gun, unless you're willing to use it.

A girl I'm seeing in Ocala said she is afraid of guns, and it she owned one, it wouldn't be loaded. I can't think of a better way of getting shot, than pulling an unloaded pistol. I had to pull my 38 on three punks about a month ago, and up until then, I didn't think it would be hard to kill somebody. It's not hard to kill someone with a gun, it's hard to decide to kill them or not. I decided it wasn't that hard, and they got the message. I haven't seen them in my neighborhood since.

Cuda
10-23-2008, 06:59 AM
In my case, the most important thing I want if an intruder breaks in my house is to get him (them) out - preferably with no loss of life. Figuring the intruder does not want to be maimed or killed, I believe in letting him know that I have a weapon. There is no more sure fire way of doing that than loading a pump or automatic shotgun with the distinctive sound they make. That being said, I keep a Colt Python 357 loaded alternately with birdshot and high grain hollow points in case things get ugly. Quite honestly, an alarm system should be the first step for both fire and intrusion protection followed by the weapons one feels safe handling. By the way, my insurance company reduces the premium by 10% since I have a fire/intrusion alarm system. My two cents, Bill
I keep five hollow points in the Python by my bed. If I need to use it, I assume things have already gotten very ugly....................for him. I keep the hammer on an empty chamber.

Cuda
10-23-2008, 07:02 AM
With all that being said, a 45 ACP would be my pistol of choice. Like Elmer Keith said, a big bullet lets out a lot of blood, and lets in a lot of air. If I pull a gun in my house, someone is dying, and it isn't going to be me.

Donziweasel
10-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Joe, strange you should mention that. My .45 is a Taurus revolver that shoots ACP .45 ammo. Always available and cheap. Nice gun, built in muzzle brake.

BUIZILLA
10-23-2008, 07:50 AM
I don't own a hand gun.. did once, but it was stolen from my locked truck... I do have a hidden loaded rifle... with a scope... :kingme:

And, I do, however, have good hands, and will power to live.... in fact I removed someone's eyeball from their socket once in a tussle... choked another until unconcious,,,, pulled another by their hair, through a car window, until the glass shattered,,,, and there's more... :yes: :wink:

and you all thought I was meek... :eek:

if backed in a corner, I KNOW i'll survive...

Rootsy
10-23-2008, 08:01 AM
two words.... Masaad Ayoob...

ky-donzi
10-23-2008, 08:57 AM
I have two comments.

(1) DO NOT EVER SHOW A WEAPON unless you are willing to use it... if you are not willing to use the weapon chances are it will be takin from you and used against you. So if you point a gun, you have made the commentment to use it, if you don't like that commentment then buy a tazer.... I have never been in the position to have to pull out a weapon and I am so glad of it

(2) if you feel you need a weapon, this is by far the best defense weapon I have seen, I own this very weapon, not for defense as much as it is a hellva snake killer too
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=201&category=Revolver

Very easy to draw, and no real aim is nessary.... just point in the general direction and fire.... for those of you that might not know .410 is a small shotgun shell and spreads when fired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5GepjBRsM

RedDog
10-23-2008, 09:27 AM
get both - pistol and shotgun.

And just as important, spend a LOT of time at the range practicing with the pistol. I have been shooting since I was a little kid and still can't shoot a pistol worth a crap.

PS - get a pistol with plenty of caliber. If it's one you will only keep at home vs concealed carry, go with a .45 ACP. Don't fool around with a .380 or smaller for your home gun.

Depending on what I am wearing, I carry a STI 1911 in 45 ACP or a Kahr in 40 S&W. Both inside the waist band (IWB)

BigGrizzly
10-23-2008, 09:31 AM
That Taurus the Judge has been on back order, they have a 3 inch magnum version too. Every time I can get one I run out of money again. Btw with the 45 long colt it is fairly accurate. I did forget to mention, my nighttime is a colt 1911, my carry is a Taurus 40 and the wife's is a model 29 S&W. She never has it loaded or handy, she expects me to do the bump in the night thing.

mrfixxall
10-23-2008, 10:03 AM
just make sure you DONT get a 60 cal..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYtN3RIpvPY

Ranman
10-23-2008, 10:15 AM
I've been reading on this lately and there are lots of opinions on home defense. It seems there are pros and cons to both handgun and shotgun options. Handguns can overpenetrate, long barrel shotguns can be cumbersome in close quarters You just need to read and decide for yourself. I was considering this item with the pistol grip stock and fore end. Short and reliable. Seems like a good chioce if you want to go the shotgun route. Does anyone want to comment on this as a home defense option?

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/premier_dealer_exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot.asp

These are the comments I read about this one:

This shotgun will only cost you somewhere between $250 and $400 depending on where you find it. But it's amazing for home defense. The overall gun is short. Having personally handled them their amazingly manuevarable. They are about half the length of a regular shotgun but with all the power and still 100% legal.
And its an 870 pump, which means that its just about the most reliable thing ever.
It's actual purpose is to be used by police and military in close quarters... Nuff said.

Conquistador_del_mar
10-23-2008, 10:41 AM
I have two comments.

(1) DO NOT EVER SHOW A WEAPON unless you are willing to use it... if you are not willing to use the weapon chances are it will be takin from you and used against you. So if you point a gun, you have made the commentment to use it, if you don't like that commentment then buy a tazer.... I have never been in the position to have to pull out a weapon and I am so glad of it

(2) if you feel you need a weapon, this is by far the best defense weapon I have seen, I own this very weapon, not for defense as much as it is a hellva snake killer too
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=201&category=Revolver

Very easy to draw, and no real aim is nessary.... just point in the general direction and fire.... for those of you that might not know .410 is a small shotgun shell and spreads when fired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H5GepjBRsM

I think I will get one of those as a replacement for my Python loaded with birdshot and hollow points. That is the very concept that I have employed for at least 20 years, but that gun was not available. Close encounters, especially at night in a panic situation, I think that gun would be perfect. Thanks for the link!! By the way, all my guns are in my bedroom including the gun case - no reason to allow anyone access before me - lol. Bill

Rootsy
10-23-2008, 10:57 AM
I've been reading on this lately and there are lots of opinions on home defense. It seems there are pros and cons to both handgun and shotgun options. Handguns can overpenetrate, long barrel shotguns can be cumbersome in close quarters You just need to read and decide for yourself. I was considering this item with the pistol grip stock and fore end. Short and reliable. Seems like a good chioce if you want to go the shotgun route. Does anyone want to comment on this as a home defense option?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/premier_dealer_exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot.asp
These are the comments I read about this one:

I reckon my opinion of long guns such as scatter guns and AR's in a home defense situation comes down to training both with the weapon as well as secondary training such as hand to hand self defense, etc. The fact is a long gun can be much more easily taken from you in close quarters combat and used against you. It's length lends itself to much greater leverage capabilites. Now I know you are a big fellow but if you are wrestling around with someone who is 200 lbs and has their hands on the middle of that shooter then it isn't much good except as a club or an object to hit the assailant with or to block his attack.

In most self defense situations the encounter is close... as in reach out and touch someone close... A handgun, with a short barrel is effective because you can maneuver it and you have much greater control of it. If you lose your weapon to the assailant you may as well say your prayers...

Now if someone was in the home and were outside of the range where they can get a hold of your long gun... then the scatter gun or a short carbine are the way to go probably...

But in the dark, is it what you want? both hands tied up to control the weapon? Especially if your weapon is NOT equipped with a light?

Scatter gun at PBR is more or less a meat grinder... you take one COM and you are probably going to be pushing daisies....

Overall in a Self defense situation my beliefs still stand... If I feel the time has arrive to use a firearm defensively.. then it's time to reconcile that I am going to have to kill someone because it is either going to be me or them... Otherwise it stays in the holster... This is a split second decision... to be taken as seriously as a life and death situation...

Don't get trigger happy and become this guy....

http://www.mlive.com/grpress/news/index.ssf/2008/10/alleged_shooter_of_pranksters.html

BUIZILLA
10-23-2008, 11:11 AM
this is interesting

in my mind, it begs the question

are some of you that paranoid that you have to have 3 weapons at your nightstand disposal, before you go to sleep?

Rootsy
10-23-2008, 11:13 AM
this is interesting
in my mind, it begs the question
are some of you that paranoid that you have to have 3 weapons at your nightstand disposal, before you go to sleep?

Safe is full.... :mad:

Want to buy a couple of guns?

I have to start making room for my ultimate home defense weapon....

Well it would have been state of the art for self defense Circa 1770 or so, anywho....

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(eoqveijsz42vsqjfd4hvd255))/imgPart/bucks-county-longrifle-parts-list_1.jpg

txtaz
10-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Safe is full.... :mad:

Jamie you need one of these. 39826
Of course you need to build the room around it and they come in different colors. We have a red door.
My personal choice is a Glock 40 and a 3.5" 12 gauge mag. Both semi auto.
The first thing is prevention: I would start with a complete home security system with LOUD horns. Use plenty of signs and stickers on the window. Have keyed locks installed meaning you need a key to open them on either side. Put glass break sensors in all rooms. Put the keypad somewhere visible from a front or back main window. Advertise you have an alarm. This will stop 99% of ever having to use a gun.
However if you choose to arm yourself you must educate yourself. Go to a shooting range and practice. Learn how the gun works, learn how to clean it and learn how to store it. Also you need to make the decision to use it before being in a situation that you may need to. A lot of people are killed by their own guns.
Da Taz<---I live in Texas. We shoot first and then ask questions so make sure you call before showing up.

roadtrip se
10-23-2008, 02:33 PM
I wonder how many people's pets die from the shot of a wigged-out, half comatose homeowner mistaking them as an intruder?

I grew up bird hunting in fields and marshes of the midwest, so I am not anti-gun and support the right to bear arms.

I do scratch my head when I find out that someone has an arsenal of personal protection in their homes. How much of this stuff do your really need? Are you expecting a siege?

We had a very difficult neighbor situation back in Texas for awhile. I contemplated getting a Glock, but frankly I didn't want to take time out of my fun schedule to keep up with it at the shooting range. My neighbor did see me carrying a golf club quite a bit. Out to get the mail, chipping around in the front yard, at the garage door or the hot tub, checking the irrigation control box, cooking at the grill, and he knew I didn't and still don't play golf. Made the point.

Rootsy
10-23-2008, 03:22 PM
I wonder how many people's pets die from the shot of a wigged-out, half comatose homeowner mistaking them as an intruder?
I grew up bird hunting in fields and marshes of the midwest, so I am not anti-gun and support the right to bear arms.
I do scratch my head when I find out that someone has an arsenal of personal protection in their homes. How much of this stuff do your really need? Are you expecting a siege?
We had a very difficult neighbor situation back in Texas for awhile. I contemplated getting a Glock, but frankly I didn't want to take time out of my fun schedule to keep up with it at the shooting range. My neighbor did see me carrying a golf club quite a bit. Out to get the mail, chipping around in the front yard, at the garage door or the hot tub, checking the irrigation control box, cooking at the grill, and he knew I didn't and still don't play golf. Made the point.

What does "Need" have to do with it... Last time I checked we were still a semi-free country...

So why do you "need" three boats? Are you anticipating a flood?

Besides, 50% of what I own are heirlooms from generations in my family that have passed on to the happy hunting ground in the sky...

DonziJon
10-23-2008, 03:31 PM
My first thoughts relative to home protection was protection against roving punks, ...more than one, ie a mini mob, just out looking for amusement. They don't really start out intending to raize hell but they DO have a need to impress their cohorts how tough they are as individuals. Maybe it's a Sport to them. They're not professionals. Just killing time before or after midnight basketball.

In the Navy we used to carry a nightstick when on Shore Patrol. Some guys had their own personal sticks in which they drilled out the business end and "loaded" it with a piece of drill rod to add a little kick. I think it was "illegal" but some did it anyway. The idea was to swing it horizontally so as to whack the assailent in the arm hard enough to break it, thus discouraging any further effort on his part.

You could also "Thrust" it like a sword into the chest but that could lead to more serious injurys which... purely from a self defense point of view was not necessary or desirable. Postal John

Donziweasel
10-23-2008, 03:39 PM
As stated, I own 3 handguns. I use them in a dual purpose mode. The backcountry behind the Lazy P is Grizzly country, as well as wolves and mountain lions, plus crazy old mountain men. Both Boo Boo and I carry revolvers above .40 calibre when in the backcountry for safety. The 9mm is just for fun. When we are not in the backcountry, the handguns are near our bed for protection.

For me it is kinda like 4wd. I will probably never have to use them in my life for any type of protection, but the one time I might, I would rather have them then not.

If anything, when in the backcountry, it gives me peace of mind. I simply feel better knowing I have the ability to defend myself if needed.

Taurus .45- 700.00
Box of ammo- 20.00
Peace of mind- priceless

BUIZILLA
10-23-2008, 03:58 PM
I don't intimidate easily...

but I find this whole macho scenario of packing a 9mm to fetch a gallon of milk just a tad silly... :nilly:

txtaz
10-23-2008, 04:03 PM
I do scratch my head when I find out that someone has an arsenal of personal protection in their homes. How much of this stuff do your really need? Are you expecting a siege?

OK bucko, some of us have many guns. I collect them. My Dad collected them. My Grand father collected them. Some dating back to early 1900's. It's ironic, I use guns to protect my guns and a Fort Knox safe.
Arsenal? Start with a long gun, shift to a hand gun as they get closer. If you have missed them by then, well you pretty much should have done more training.
DonziJon, When I was in Maine this spring, there was a ship up from Norfolk. Their shore patrol carried hand guns. Shows you how things have changed.
Da Taz<---Target shooting is the best. Show me a thug at 1000 yards, I'll tag him. It's legal here to protect other peoples properties as well as your own with deadly force.

Donziweasel
10-23-2008, 04:24 PM
but I find this whole macho scenario of packing a 9mm to fetch a gallon of milk just a tad silly...

I don't take my guns to get milk. I take money to buy the milk with.:biggrin.:

Ghost
10-23-2008, 04:49 PM
I don't take my guns to get milk. I take money to buy the milk with.:biggrin.:

:rlol:

DonziJon
10-23-2008, 06:56 PM
I don't intimidate easily...
but I find this whole macho scenario of packing a 9mm to fetch a gallon of milk just a tad silly... :nilly:



Buiz..I don't care what anybody says...You have a really nice butt there.....:worthy:...Postal John

Donziweasel
10-23-2008, 07:00 PM
I never knew Jim was so shapely. Boo Boo is jealous.:biggrin.:

ChromeGorilla
10-23-2008, 07:11 PM
My fav is the Glock subcompact .45's Nice small package with plenty o' punch. G30 or G36. I have yet to find a nother pistol that fits as nicely in my hand as these 2.

JimG
10-23-2008, 08:05 PM
Can one have too many guns? Or too big a truck?

I don't think so, scooter...:biggrin.:

roadtrip se
10-23-2008, 10:48 PM
What does "Need" have to do with it... Last time I checked we were still a semi-free country...
So why do you "need" three boats? Are you anticipating a flood?
Besides, 50% of what I own are heirlooms from generations in my family that have passed on to the happy hunting ground in the sky...

fine. No problem with collecting and cherishing heirlooms. Having more than one loaded and ready to shoot within easy reach of the bed stand, well maybe that there is a different discussion which was the point of my original post.

As for three boats, nope. Two, yes. The 18 went bye-bye when we decided to pursue something a little friendlier and more comfortable for friends and family. The SE is still in the stable, so I guess we could out run the floods.

zelatore
10-24-2008, 12:10 PM
Again, I'm late to this thread.

My personal home-defense gun choice is a pump action shotgun - your choice of gauge - with a short barrel. I've got a simple Mossberg 12 gauge in the bedroom right now.

We have some small caliber handguns and I would just love an excuse to buy that 357 Smith I've always wanted, but that's the wrong choice for this application.

We also have a rifle in the house, but again, wrong tool for the job.

Any good size handgun or rifle will have far too much penetration power for use in an urban environment. Think about it - most interior walls are nothing but a couple layers of drywall. My air rifle can punch through that. Exterior walls aren't much better. Assuming you miss (and statistically, you probably will) you're not only going to hit what's on the other side of the wall (your kid or wife maybe?), but with a high caliber handgun or rifle you could easily punch right out of your own house and into your neighbor’s house. That's not a chance I want to take.

A shotgun on the other hand has some advantages. First, in a quite house in the middle of the night the sound of racking the slide is loud and quite intimidating in it's own right - and with any luck that sound alone (and who doesn't recognize that sound?) will signal the bad guy to get the hell out. Second, if you use the gun in a house there is far less chance of over penetration. Yeah, it'll shoot through drywall, but with light shot it won't blow through the drywall, the wood siding on the outside, and into the house across the street. And lastly, it's easier to hit something with it than a handgun. Even trained men like cops seldom hit the bad guy in a fight; with your adrenalin going full-bore, a civilian's chances of actually hitting the bad guy are slim, even if you practice regularly (as you should) and are a good shot. Yeah, cops carry handguns as their personal weapon, but when the sh!t gets deep and they have the chance, they’ll grab that shotgun in the trunk before going into a hostile building.

I've heard people complain about the lack of range of a shotgun, but in your home how far are you going to shoot? 10 feet? 20? At the ranges you'd actually use the thing in home defense, a 20 or 12 (heck probably even a little 410) gauge has plenty of knock-down power.

One last note, I've found that women are often more willing to shoot a bad guy than men. First, women have it drilled into their heads from a young age that bad guys are out to get them...from purse snatchers to rapists. Second, guys tend to think more macho and feel like maybe they can take the bad guy without shooting or other BS while the women just want the guy down NOW.

ChromeGorilla
10-24-2008, 12:53 PM
Oh I forgot.... two insane dogs....:nilly: The second someone is in my yard, the dogs know it. And they don't like it. And if it's night time and they hear anything... they're going bezerker let alone the chime my alarm system makes whena window or door is opened... dogs could be in the deepest REM sleep ever till that lil chime goes ding....:yes: then their on full alert...:eek:

And just incase the fool still tried coming in with dogs growling and showing teeth... I gots a .45 waitin...

zelatore
10-24-2008, 01:07 PM
Damn, Don you typed my response word for word.. :eek: :)

Just trying to save your fingers from all that tiring typing. I figure they must be getting tired from changing sig line pics all the time...:wink:

mjw930
10-25-2008, 07:38 PM
I'm late to this party but I gotta throw my 2 cents in. I too could be considered to have an arsenal simply because I collect guns. I also enjoy shooting as does my wife and her parents, we make trips to the range a family affair, sound red neck enough for ya :)

I have the Taurus 4510 (Judge) in the nightstand loaded with alternating 410 #6 and .45 long Colt. The wife has her Walther PPK on her side, both are loaded with no empty chambers, hers is "cocked and locked". In my office desk I have a Colt 1911 Officers Lightweight (special edition, one of only 500 made) that is also cocked and locked. In the cabinet over the fridge is where my carry guns are, a Kahr PM9 and a Keltec P3AT. In the fire safe, which weighs 600 lbs and is bolted into the slab, are probably another dozen guns of various caliber and configuration from a US Shooting Team Ruger MKII 22LR to a custom Springfield 1911 along with the requisite plastic guns like the XD40 or the really cool XD9 V10 compensated (shoots flames out in the V shape the end of the barrel when you use +P ammo).

To make sure I know what I'm doing I took the time to learn how to handle the guns and make sure I shoot every one of them that I assign to protection duty regularly to stay familiar with them and to insure they are functioning (go bang when you pull the trigger). In fact, my father-in-law is helping me with combat shooting techniques. It's real interesting to see how difficult it is to be accurate and fast in combat situation. BTW, my father-in-law is retired NY State Police and was a sniper in Vietnam. I couldn't ask for a better teacher.

Am I paranoid, no. Do I want to make sure me and my family are protected, ABSOLUTELY! (BTW, no kids in the house and when nieces and nephews visit ALL guns go in the safe).

I also live by the rule that if someone is in my house uninvited, regardless of the time of day or night I assume they are in the process of committing a felony. The first thing they will see when I confront them is the barrel of a gun and if they make any move other than to exit they will be in a serious world of hurt. Remember, my gun will be drawn and pointed at them, not at my side or pointing up in the air. If, when this encounter happens, I see they have a gun then there will be NO hesitation, I WILL get off the first shot.

Sorry if this offends the senses of some but if you watch the news you know it isn't just a matter of living in the wrong neighborhoods anymore, **** happens everywhere.

Cuda
10-25-2008, 08:45 PM
Joe, strange you should mention that. My .45 is a Taurus revolver that shoots ACP .45 ammo. Always available and cheap. Nice gun, built in muzzle brake.

I've always been a wheel gun man myself. I've never had a revoler jam. I can't say the same about autos. The 45 ACP doesn't have the penetration of a 44 mag, but it WILL penetrated skin, muscle, and break a few bones, and it doesn't have near the recoil of a 44 mag.
I'm going to check in to that gun. Excellent choice, and simple to use under pressure. They don't have a safety, or a slide to fool with, just point the barrel, and pull the trigger repeatedly, until it clicks.

BUIZILLA
10-25-2008, 08:50 PM
good to see you checking in Joe..

Cuda
10-25-2008, 08:56 PM
I think I will get one of those as a replacement for my Python loaded with birdshot and hollow points. That is the very concept that I have employed for at least 20 years, but that gun was not available. Close encounters, especially at night in a panic situation, I think that gun would be perfect. Thanks for the link!! By the way, all my guns are in my bedroom including the gun case - no reason to allow anyone access before me - lol. Bill
I have a pistol within arms reach of the three most likely places I might be in the house. Next to my recliner, next to my bed, and the 44 mag that's sitting right now under my feet at my computer. I'm not sure the bad guy will be patient enough to allow me to retrieve my pistol.

The double barrel 20 guage by my sliding glass doors to the back yard, is actually to deter gators, intent on making a snack of my lab, or mocasins, because the are the most onery snake on earth.

Cuda
10-25-2008, 09:30 PM
Can one have too many guns? Or too big a truck?
I don't think so, scooter...:biggrin.:
Or too much money?

When I hunted a lot, they people argued all the time of using too much gun. The answer was, "At what point did the round fail in killing the animal".

That being said, a hit with a 22, beats a miss with a 44.

Cuda
10-25-2008, 09:31 PM
I don't intimidate easily...
but I find this whole macho scenario of packing a 9mm to fetch a gallon of milk just a tad silly... :nilly:
I don't imtimidate at all.

As we say when hog hunting, go ahead and catch, because I don't bay.

Cuda
10-25-2008, 09:37 PM
[QUOTE=BUIZILLA;473555]
and you all thought I was meek... [/BQUOTE]




I never made that pontentially fatal error in judgement. :eek:
I'm just some dumb, not plumb dumb! :)



I remember on another site someone was calling you little man, I pointed out the fact they must not have ever met you.:eek:

Ghost
10-26-2008, 12:12 AM
This seems like another subject where everything is a tradeoff. A lot of people here know a great deal more than I do on this subject, but I had a few thoughts.

I can see Roadtrip's point about safety, and I don't doubt that groggy or startled people have accidents. I don't know how many pets have ever been killed by accident. This also seems like it might happen. (I've never heard of an incident, but where I live it seems less likely than other areas, and I doubt many would publicize their mistakes anyhow.)

I can also see Cuda's and others' point about having multiple weapons distributed through the house, loaded. I don't know how much time one typically has when a weapon is needed, but I bet it is one of those things where it is less time than you even expect, and availability would make the difference between life and death. Does that make for more chance of an accident? No doubt. Does it increase the probability of being able to protect yourself? No doubt there either. Hence what I said about tradeoffs.

I do know that the two times in my life that I have been attacked (neither time did I have a handgun) I was thankful for a little common sense preparedness that made ALL THE DIFFERENCE in a scenario where time to respond was short. In one case, my car doors were locked the instant I sat down, nearly a reflex for me, and when about 8 guys jumped out and tried to pull me from the car, all I had to do was get the key in the ignition and start going. But if the door locking hadn't been a habit, I'd have had no chance.

The other time I was in a vulnerable place and knew it, and thought about what I would do if something happened. When it did, I knew where I would go and moved without hesitation. Another second and I would have already been hit over the head with a bottle.

So, the idea of having multiple loaded guns around the house makes very good sense to me, and the locked safe when kids are around seems like a good approach too. An alarm system also seems like a good idea to me. Again, a few extra seconds might mean a whole lot.

As for what to choose, I think wheelguns are so simple and so reliable and so easy to inspect quickly (loaded or not, no confusion about a round in the chamber versus the magazine), they seem ideal. IF you can shoot them. Sadly, my experience is that I can be pretty reasonable with a semi-auto pistol like a Glock or a 45 ACP. But for some reason, the heavy double-action of a revolver has me spraying wildly. Short of a lot of time at the range, it seems like I'm better off taking my chances with a jam and a gun I can actually aim. Another tradeoff.

Given the choice, I think I might grab a nice short-barreled pump shotgun over any of the pistols.

Anybody have thoughts about a .410 or other small gauge shot pistol? (I gather from some of the posts that people load shot into some of their pistols anyhow, alternating with std rounds. That's interesting--didn't even know you could do that.)

I once saw a wacky, lanky 6'5" ish guy at the skeet range shooting consistent 22s to 24s with a .410 pistol. It was pretty amazing, to me anyhow.

Cuda
10-26-2008, 01:54 AM
So, the idea of having multiple loaded guns around the house makes very good sense to me, and the locked safe when kids are around seems like a good approach too. An alarm system also seems like a good idea to me. Again, a few extra seconds might mean a whole lot.

As for what to choose, I think wheelguns are so simple and so reliable and so easy to inspect quickly (loaded or not, no confusion about a round in the chamber versus the magazine), they seem ideal. IF you can shoot them. Sadly, my experience is that I can be pretty reasonable with a semi-auto pistol like a Glock or a 45 ACP. But for some reason, the heavy double-action of a revolver has me spraying wildly. Short of a lot of time at the range, it seems like I'm better off taking my chances with a jam and a gun I can actually aim. Another tradeoff.

Given the choice, I think I might grab a nice short-barreled pump shotgun over any of the pistols.

Anybody have thoughts about a .410 or other small gauge shot pistol? (I gather from some of the posts that people load shot into some of their pistols anyhow, alternating with std rounds. That's interesting--didn't even know you could do that.)
.
There is no doubt, that if I had kids, or kids were here often, I would change the places I'd keep a pistol, but that's not the case for me.

I high grade auto that doesn't jam would be a decent choice, but unless you keep it cocked and locked, there are a lot of things to do, in a very short period of time. under stress. I haven't owned any high dollar auto's, but I've had every singe auto I've owned, jam on me at one time or other.

The problem with a short barreled pump, is where are you going to keep it, safely, but still in immediate reach? I I KNEW the bad guys were coming ahead of time, my weapon of choice would be my 12 gauge short barreled shotgun, loaded with #4 turkey shot.

I can shoot six rounds from my 44 at a fairly rapid rate, and not miss a human sized body from any distance that I should be shooting them from. If there far enough away that I might miss, I shouldn't be shoting them anyway, unless it's to return fire.

The problem with small caliber pistols is, it gives the bad guy a chance to shoot back. The .45 ACP is a proven manstopper, even over the more sexy .40 Glock.

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 07:16 AM
Joe,
If you are interested in either revolver, here is a little info and some pics. I agree with you about the wheel gun, never seems to jam, double action, no safety, although I keep it in a holster with a hammer guard.

Mine is a model 455, and as you know, shoots .45 ACP ammo. Boo Boo's is a .41 mag Titanium model 425. Both guns look really similar. If you notice, at the end of the barrel is 4 small holes in a black indention on each side that act as a muzzle brake. My .45 has no kick or muzzle rise at all. Of course the magnum has more kick, but is still very controllable, especailly for Boo Boo. Hers weighs 1/4 what mine does due to the Titanium frame. Got hers for 525.00 and mine for around 500.00. I highly recommend either, plus the reviews were excellent on both.

Also is a pic of the each guns ammo side by side. Just plain good, reliable, protection.

Good to see you back. Boo Boo says hello.

Rootsy
10-26-2008, 07:37 AM
Something for you holier than now Elitists....

pj4yUpR1PB0

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 07:37 AM
I would like to say there is another reason to own multiple guns, pleasure. I simply like guns. They all have different characteristic and I like mastering each one. It takes self control and training to become proficient with any gun. I am not gun crazy, and not a collector. I have 4 handguns, 3 shotguns and 2 rifles. I like shooting all of them. After a hard day, sometimes a little skeet shooting with the shotguns puts me back on an even keel, especailly if I hit 5 out of 5 all day. I also like range shooting with my rifles. How many times can I hit the 1ft x 1ft steel plate at 500 yards with different grain bullets. Some days, I like to shoot my handguns. One thing I enjoy is going back and forth between the 9mm, the .41 mag, and .45. Each shoots different and I like to unlaod the 9, then jump immediatly to the .41 and then the .45. See how quickly I can adjust to each gun. I like to practice. One reocurring theme in this thread is practice. I agree. If you have a gun for protection and can't hit the broad side of a barn, then it isn't much good.

I am not a collector, not a gun nut, and don't know that much about different manufactures (of course I know calibres), and not paranoid. I like to sport shoot and hunt. I keep the revolvers next to my bed, why?, because why not? Don't have kids yet and that is as good a place to keep them as anywhere. They are in drawers and not visible.

One thing I would like to say, if you are looking at guns, go for a revolver if you choose a handgun and CLEAN it! Automatics, of which I own 2 (9mm and .380) can jam, even Glocks. Auto's have more moving parts, are harder to break down and clean, and can jam. I have had a model 17 and 19 Glock 9mm. The 17 jammed one time when I was target shooting on a very dusty day. Plus, get quality ammo, and clean again. There is so much bull **** cheap ammo on the market right now. Gun powder is caustic and will pit your barrel, even coated ones, losing compression over time. Also, can jam actions, slides in Autos, and if not cleaned and shot for long periods of time, can jam a bullet in the barrel, which is dangerous as hell.

boxy
10-26-2008, 08:54 AM
Something for you holier than now Elitists....



Rootsy, what message are you trying to get across with this clip?
I am assuming the speaker is a DEA agent, and if so, the only message I get is that if a trained professional can't be trusted to handle a gun safely in a room ful of children, how the hell can most of the American public?

I've got another question, but I will put that in a seperate post.

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 09:00 AM
Maybe the point is- Don't preach safety, preach AND practice it instead.

boxy
10-26-2008, 09:02 AM
Here's my question ......

In a State where a carry permit is required, or you are simply allowed to have a concealed weapon, are there restrictions attached to that permit/licence similar to other State sanctioned permits/licences?

You can not have care and control of a motor vehicle with BAC exceeding certain levels, if you do, you can lose your Driving permit/licence.

Is there a similar requirement attached to Carry/Concealed Permits?
If not, why not?

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 09:10 AM
Steve, I think it is State to State. I have a concealed permit. Mine was issued by Teton Co. WY. Got it after Alltrans, Inc. started catering to high end clients, escpecailly Prince Al_waheed and Rupert Murdock. Worth 5 billion and over a billion respectively. I drove them and they had an entourage of security. I started thinking, if someone starts shooting at him, his security will try and protect him, not me. Who the hell is going to protect me, the driver? So, I applied and got mine. Never use it except when dealing with potentially high profile and controversial clients.

I can carry it wherever and whenever I want, even intoxicated, although I would NEVER EVER do such a stupid thing. There was an added bonus. When buying any gun, you have to fill out a form and be approved before purchasing. Everytime I had to wait 3-5 days. Now, I don't have to apply anymore and can purchase a gun anytime just by showing my permit.

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 09:14 AM
Almost forgot, it was very easy to get. Filled out a 9 page application and it took 3 months to be approved. They did ask why I wanted it in the application and I put something like- "Business requires providing transportaion for high end, possibly controversail clients that provide thier own security. In a possible life threatening scenario, there would be no protection for the contrated transportation provider".

Rootsy
10-26-2008, 09:33 AM
Boxy,

My point was... don't preach to me what I should and should not be doing when the person preaching is an idiot who has no business handling let along preaching... Live and let live. I will do as I please in my home, you do as you please in yours.

As far as carry permits, etc. I have a Michigan CCW. Michigan is a "Shall Issue" state. Meaning, if you do not have any disqualifiers (and the list is long) then the state MUST issue you a permit. You must take an NRA pistol safety course (somewhere around $100 - $150), fill out the Michigan State Police application, get fingerprinted, have a passport photo taken, give the state $105 and in a month or so you'll get your permit having passed an extensive FBI criminal and mental background check.

CCW laws vary from state to state and many states have reciprocity with each other. When in another state you MUST abide by THEIR rules. There is NO national "CCW law". All CCW laws are left to a state by state basis. There are only 2 states in the US that don't allow CCW on some level... Illinois and Wisconsin.

In Michigan there is a ZERO tolerance policy on alcohol and firearm possession. If you are in control of a firearm you cannot exceed .02 BAC. Whether you are concealed carrying or open carrying... Hunting or shopping... doesn't matter.

Open carry has more restrictions as far as transporting in a vehicle, possession as well as "gun free zones"... CCW holders may possess the pistol registered to another person, may carry in more places than an unlicensed person and may carry in a vehicle. Whereas someone who does not possess a CCW in Michigan can ONLY possess their own registered handgun unless in the presence of the person who actually owns the handgun... Possession of long guns are not restricted... They must have their weapon cased, unloaded and transported in the trunk of a vehicle. They also may not carry in a bank and other places (A CCW holder may carry in a bank).

Open Carry and CCW is forbidden in the dormatory and classroom of a college or university as well as at establishments that make 51% or more of their money from alcohol sales through consumption (bars etc). The list is more encompassing these are just two prime examples.

Seeing that I am close to Ohio as well as Indiana I must be knowledgable of their CCW laws also. Indiana is no biggie.. they are more liberal with firearm possession than Michigan. Ohio on the other hand has some differences. Before they passed their state wide CCW legislation a couple of years ago with pre-emption you had to know the laws of specific cities, etc. Such as Toledo which did not allow you to carry "Saturday Night Specials" which are pistols with barrels less than 2".

Ohio up until this year required you to carry a loaded weapon either on your person or in a locked compartment in your vehicle if you had a CCW. A PITA really, especially if you are in a vehicle... the last place you want to have your weapon is in your holster... on your person. Not only is it uncomfortable but it is inconvenient to access should you need it in a carjacking, etc. They have since changed this law and you may now carry how you want in a vehicle.

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Our permits are similar Jamie. No governenmt building, place where government is being conducted, education center (all schools and colleges), bars, places of worship. Can be revoked if you are convicted of a controlled subtance crime or a crime where alcohol played a factor.

Here are the States that recognize Wyoming CWP and the one's Wyoming recognize-

Alaska, Alabama, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas and Utah

Rootsy
10-26-2008, 12:06 PM
Goes back to my past and predictable behavior experience with the Joe Man, don't like what I state? Fine. Argue your point. But no, we go personal, start throwing names around, and behaving exactly like the ignorant, arrogant jack ass that you accuse me of being. This time with a few threats mixed in for effect. Give me a break. I am not impressed. Bring it if you got it. What a schmuck.
One more time. I own shot guns. I have hunted off and on for close to forty years. My only point was and still is that I don't see the benefit of making my home into Fort Knox. What I never stated was that someone else should not have the right to do so. If that makes me an elitist, and a a thousand other personal ephiphets, have at it and to each your own.

See tripper, that's the great thing about this country that we call the United States... We're all entitled to our opinions, we can all believe what we wish... just so long as it does not encroach upon or suppress the beliefs and thoughts of another... and vice versa...

BTW, I had a little incident a couple of Christmas' ago in a dark mall parking lot that still makes me weak in the knees and sick to my stomach... thankfully it ended without any incident... But it makes one think that it is better to be prepared than not... for that if and when situation...

To me carrying a firearm and keeping one for the most part close at hand in the middle of the night is akin wearing life preservers in the donzi...

Lenny
10-26-2008, 12:36 PM
One thing, and I won't get into this any further, when you are travelling to the PNW and THEN over the line in the next few weeks, DO NOT BRING your handgun(s).

You will basically be staying on that side of the line.


OVERVIEW OF CANADIAN GUN LAWS
YOUR RIGHTS IN CANADA

First and foremost, remember that the US Bill of Rights ends at the US/Canadian border. Canada is an independent and sovereign country; the US constitution and US laws have no force in Canada.

There is no equivalent to the US Second Amendment in Canada. Nor is there an equivalent to the US Fourth and Fifth Amendments; Canadian firearms laws permit warrantless searches and seizures and compulsion to testify against yourself, overriding language to the contrary in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

REMEMBER
There is no Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Canada
Your RKBA rights cease the moment you step foot across the border!


Canada has a parliamentary "majority rules" democratic system; if the majority decides that a right does not exist, that right does not exist. The Firearms Act was passed by the majority in the Canadian Parliament. Canada does not have a US-style independent executive or court system that can block or overrule laws based upon overriding constitutional principles. The executive (called a Governor-General, effectively a viceroy) in Canada is an unelected figurehead who rubber-stamps "Royal Assent" to laws. Although technically Canadian courts can declare a law unconstitutional (they declined to do so on the Firearms Act), Canada's constitution gives the federal (or any provincial) government the power to overrule a decision by the Supreme Court of Canada that declared a law unconstitutional.

Civil rights in Canada are granted by Parliament in a law called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Many of these rights are similar to rights found in the US Constitution (including the Bill of Rights). However, note the various "notwithstanding" clauses, such as section 33, which give the Canadian federal and provincial governments the power to ignore these rights at their choosing.

The bottom line is that in Canada, what Parliament says, goes. Government in Canada has far more power than in the US.

Behave yourself. Don't expect to get away with US-style civil disobediance against a law that you oppose, and expect to win in court. You are a guest in a foreign country, and while there you are obligated to obey that country's laws.

CANADIAN GUN LAWS

The good news is that Canadian law allows non-residents to bring ordinary long guns into Canada with relatively little difficulty, for hunting, competition, transport to Alaska, and protection against wildlife in remote areas.

However, all firearms of any kind must be registered and persons in possession of a firearm must be licensed; you should expect to be asked to display your licence and registration certificate, and expect to lose your firearm if you can not do so. The registration certificate would be either a Non-Resident Firearms Declaration or a regular registration certificate. If you have a Temporary Borrowing License or a Non-Resident Firearms Declaration, this serves as your temporary firearms license; otherwise you must have a Possession-Only License (POL) or a Possession and Acquisition License (PAL).

Contrary to what many people have said, and signs posted at the border say, it is possible to bring handguns into Canada, including to transport them between the continental US and Alaska. It requires considerable advance planning and preparation, but it can be done. Signs that say "handguns are prohibited in Canada" are wrong.

The easiest way to understand Canada's gun laws is to think "New York City style." That is: classification of firearms, licensing of gun owners (this includes buying ammo), registration of all firearms, additional restrictions on handguns and certain long guns including how they may be transported and carried, and some guns banned entirely.

Canadian firearm owners are licensed with either a Possession-Only License (POL), or a Possession and Acquisition License (PAL). Non-residents are eligible to obtain a PAL. In addition, there are two special licenses for short-term visitors, the Temporary Borrowing License and the Non-Resident Firearms Declaration.

Firearms are classified into one of three categories: non-restricted, restricted, and prohibited. There are regulations for transport, storage, and display of firearms in each of these three classes.

CLASSES OF FIREARMS

PROHIBITED FIREARMS, DEVICES, AND WEAPONS

Prohibited firearms, devices, and weapons are:
full-automatic firearms
sawed-off rifles or shotguns with barrel length less than 457mm (18 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short barrels
sawed-off rifles or shotguns with overall length less than 660mm (26 inches); this does not apply to firearms manufactured with short stocks or short barrels
handguns with a barrel less than 105mm (4.14 inches), except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
handguns in caliber .25 or .32, except certain specifically listed competition handguns which are restricted
silencers
large capacity magazines for a semi-automatic center-fire firearm. What constitutes "large capacity" varies; as a general rule, the maximum capacity is 5 rounds for long guns, 10 rounds for handguns "commonly found in Canada", and 5 rounds for handguns "not commonly found in Canada." Magazines for rimfire cartridges, the 8-round clips used in the M1 Garand, and 10 round Lee Enfield rifle magazines are exempted by name from this prohibition.
any of a long list of firearms specifically listed as prohibited. With few exceptions, if it has a remotely military appearance, it is prohibited.
replicas of firearms
any type of Taser or other firearm that discharges a dart or other object carrying an electrical current.
tear gas, Mace or other gas, or any liquid spray, power or other substance that is capable of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person
any type of stun gun or other electrical charge device of length less than 480mm
a large additional class of prohibited weapons, such as nunchakus, switchblades, brass knuckles, etc. which are not discussed here. Read the list here if you care.
That's right, you're not allowed to use non-lethal means of self-defense in Canada. This would seem to ban pepper spray for use against bears, but apparently there are some forms of bear spray which are legal for use in Canada.

There is a ton more info out there, but I would just leave that thing at home. :yes:

On a side note, I (we, Deneen and I) do not lock the house, do not own, (or ever have) a gun, but have a 120 pound American German Shepherd. (my 5th German Shepherd.) So, if any of you want to break in, just leave the weapons at home, no need for tools, just bring brisket and biscuits. :)

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the info Lenny. Trust me, if I won't take a gun to get milk from the store, I definetly would never bring one into Canada. I don't carry it much, only when working with high profile clients or in the backcountry. JH has very little crime, if any. I don't lock the house, my car, etc.... either. Never had a problem in 16 years of living here. Sound like Victoria and JH have a few things in common.

Cuda
10-26-2008, 06:03 PM
Joe,
If you are interested in either revolver, here is a little info and some pics. I agree with you about the wheel gun, never seems to jam, double action, no safety, although I keep it in a holster with a hammer guard.
Mine is a model 455, and as you know, shoots .45 ACP ammo. Boo Boo's is a .41 mag Titanium model 425. Both guns look really similar. If you notice, at the end of the barrel is 4 small holes in a black indention on each side that act as a muzzle brake. My .45 has no kick or muzzle rise at all. Of course the magnum has more kick, but is still very controllable, especailly for Boo Boo. Hers weighs 1/4 what mine does due to the Titanium frame. Got hers for 525.00 and mine for around 500.00. I highly recommend either, plus the reviews were excellent on both.
Also is a pic of the each guns ammo side by side. Just plain good, reliable, protection.
Good to see you back. Boo Boo says hello.
I think the 45 ACP with a muzzle break would be the nearest I could think of as a perfect pistol for home defense. I have a Mossberg shotgun I use to turkey hunt, and duck hunt. I can shoot high brass 3.5 inch #4 turkey shot, that kicks no worse than my 870, which I've owned since Moby Dick was a minnow. I also have a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun. 16.5 inch barrel with a muzzle break. I can shoot factory loads that are made for the weaker "trapdoor" models, with one hand. The muzzle break makes that much difference. I've also loaded my own up to near 454 Weatherby pressures, and I'm sure I would't like shoothing them without the muzzle break. Even with the muzzle break, you won't be shooting a them a box at a time, unless you have masotistic tendincies!:eek:

With the break, the ACP doen't have much more muzzle rise than a 22 mag pistol.
Like you said, good quality ammo makes a difference with the cleanliness of the round. Use cheap ammo, uspecially with unjacket rounds, and you can plan on a couple hours of good clean fun when you're done shooting. Another good thing about a 45 ACP, is you won't have to take out a second mortgage to buy a lot of rounds. The less expensive a round is, the more likely you are to practice with it.




Tell Boo Boo I said hey back. :)

Cuda
10-26-2008, 06:06 PM
Why is Boo Boo using the pistol that will kick at least twice as hard as the 45? Especially since it is lighter? ;)

Donziweasel
10-26-2008, 06:22 PM
Wieght on her hip when riding or walking in the backcountry mainly. She only weighs 120. The weight of my .45 is uncomfortable for her, although it doesn't bother me. One of the main reason I got her the Titanium. I wanted a solid gun that hit hard and was lightwieght for her. She can control it really well too with the break. Too be honest, when I go in the backcountry without Boo Boo, I take her Magnum sometimes.


You are also right about the ammo. .45 very inexpensive, especailly compared to a box of Boo Boo's hollow point .41 mags.

roadtrip se
10-27-2008, 12:52 PM
See tripper, that's the great thing about this country that we call the United States... We're all entitled to our opinions, we can all believe what we wish... just so long as it does not encroach upon or suppress the beliefs and thoughts of another... and vice versa...
...

Roots, thought I would attach these just for the record and to give you a chance to brush up. I find it entertaining that Amendment I, together with the right to free speech, comes BEFORE Amendment II, with the right to bear arms. While we all know that ultimately the right to free speech is in the hands of the moderators here, I would appreciate the opportunity to express a view which just might be different from yours, and not have you and others insert words into my arguement that were never there.

Oh and Joe, last time I checked there are typically more than one chamber and one bullet in most modern handguns that I have seen unless of course you are Deputy Barney from Mayberry, so having a half dozen loaded guns around the old domiclie seems and is excessive. As for your expression and use of your right to free speech, I think a little less elixer might help next time as you lost me in the first sentence and I probably will never take anything you have to say again here as anything more than the ramblings of someone with some serious issues to resolve. Get help, you appear to need it.


Bill of Rights

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Rootsy
10-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Roots, thought I would attach these just for the record and to give you a chance to brush up. I find it entertaining that Amendment I, together with the right to free speech, comes BEFORE Amendment II, with the right to bear arms.
While we all know that ultimately the right to free speech is in the hands of the moderators here, I would appreciate the opportunity to express a view which just might be different from yours, and not have you and others insert words into my arguement that were never there.
Oh and Joe, last time I checked there are typically more than one chamber and one bullet in most modern handguns that I have seen unless of course you are Deputy Barney from Mayberry. As for your expression and use of your right to free speech, I think a little less elixer might help next time as
you lost me in the first sentence...
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Todd,

God created all men... Samuel Colt made them equal...

Just remember... The only thing standing between your rights and the Government turning you into a surf are 80 million armed citizens and a lingering sense of liberty...

Why don't you give yourself a history lesson. If you do you'll quickly learn that the numbering system of the Bill Of Rights has absolutely no bearing on order of importance...

continue Grasshopper...

osur866
10-27-2008, 01:06 PM
This is getting crazy, all I really learned from my father was "if you shoot him make darn sure he falls through the window and lands inside the house instead of landing outside" :biggrin.: Steve

roadtrip se
10-27-2008, 01:14 PM
Todd,
God created all men... Samuel Colt made them equal...
Just remember... The only thing standing between your rights and the Government turning you into a surf are 80 million armed citizens and a lingering sense of liberty...
Why don't you give yourself a history lesson. If you do you'll quickly learn that the numbering system of the Bill Of Rights has absolutely no bearing on order of importance...
continue Grasshopper...

I just looked out the window and I didn't see any little black helicopters, so I think we are good for today. Funny thing, we did see quite a few this late summer including a couple of gun ships looking for the annual pot crops here, and I didn't like it one bit. The guns hanging off those things did look like something with a little more caliber than I have in my gun stash for hunting.

I never inferred that one bill of right had precedence over another. It just happens that the right to free speach comes before the right to bear arms in the order. Fact, not part of your suggested history lesson.

ChromeGorilla
10-27-2008, 04:36 PM
Oh...you could always get an attack Poodle or 2... just ask Catch22 about his dads poodles....:eek: ...or maybe they just didn't like Yankees down there in dem parts...

Not quite as lovable as our resident Poodle....:wink:

Cuda
10-27-2008, 06:09 PM
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Exactly what part of that is unclear to you?

Cuda
10-27-2008, 06:27 PM
Oh I forgot.... two insane dogs....:nilly: The second someone is in my yard, the dogs know it. And they don't like it. And if it's night time and they hear anything... they're going bezerker let alone the chime my alarm system makes whena window or door is opened... dogs could be in the deepest REM sleep ever till that lil chime goes ding....:yes: then their on full alert...:eek:
And just incase the fool still tried coming in with dogs growling and showing teeth... I gots a .45 waitin...
My home protection system is quite similar to yours. My dogs never yap, unles there is a reason. Luckily, so far the reason has been a possum, an armadillo, or a cat.

Cuda
10-27-2008, 06:53 PM
I'm late to this party but I gotta throw my 2 cents in. I too could be considered to have an arsenal simply because I collect guns. I also enjoy shooting as does my wife and her parents, we make trips to the range a family affair, sound red neck enough for ya :)

I have the Taurus 4510 (Judge) in the nightstand loaded with alternating 410 #6 and .45 long Colt. The wife has her Walther PPK on her side, both are loaded with no empty chambers, hers is "cocked and locked". In my office desk I have a Colt 1911 Officers Lightweight (special edition, one of only 500 made) that is also cocked and locked. In the cabinet over the fridge is where my carry guns are, a Kahr PM9 and a Keltec P3AT. In the fire safe, which weighs 600 lbs and is bolted into the slab, are probably another dozen guns of various caliber and configuration from a US Shooting Team Ruger MKII 22LR to a custom Springfield 1911 along with the requisite plastic guns like the XD40 or the really cool XD9 V10 compensated (shoots flames out in the V shape the end of the barrel when you use +P ammo).

To make sure I know what I'm doing I took the time to learn how to handle the guns and make sure I shoot every one of them that I assign to protection duty regularly to stay familiar with them and to insure they are functioning (go bang when you pull the trigger). In fact, my father-in-law is helping me with combat shooting techniques. It's real interesting to see how difficult it is to be accurate and fast in combat situation. BTW, my father-in-law is retired NY State Police and was a sniper in Vietnam. I couldn't ask for a better teacher.

Am I paranoid, no. Do I want to make sure me and my family are protected, ABSOLUTELY! (BTW, no kids in the house and when nieces and nephews visit ALL guns go in the safe).

I also live by the rule that if someone is in my house uninvited, regardless of the time of day or night I assume they are in the process of committing a felony. The first thing they will see when I confront them is the barrel of a gun and if they make any move other than to exit they will be in a serious world of hurt. Remember, my gun will be drawn and pointed at them, not at my side or pointing up in the air. If, when this encounter happens, I see they have a gun then there will be NO hesitation, I WILL get off the first shot.

Sorry if this offends the senses of some but if you watch the news you know it isn't just a matter of living in the wrong neighborhoods anymore, **** happens everywhere.
The only thing different at Chez Cuda, the muzzle of my gun would be the last thing they'd see on this earth.

Cuda
10-27-2008, 07:02 PM
As it was stated in the vanacular of the old west; a .45, beats four aces every time.

Trueser
10-27-2008, 07:26 PM
At this point I would say pull the plug?

8 posts in a row has to be a record.

And for the record I do own guns and none of them are ready to go. I think allot of this depends on where you live.

We have a long winter ahead of us. Can we just get along?