Affected by the 2 big financial bombs?

[McGary911]

Just curious. Anyone else on the board directly affected by the 2 big Wall Street moves (Lehman bankrupt, Merrill sold)?

I'm sure everyone will be indirectly affected one way or the other.

I manage a technical team at ML, and the future is a bit murky right now to say the least. I'm hearing a lot of rumors about the financial side of the house, but zip on technology. I figure I'll keep doing my job, be optimistic, but have my resume ready. I just bought a house too...........

If anyone else is touched by any of this, I hope things turn out as good as possible.

[mike o]

I hope no one loses there job (for any working in financials) during these tough times... Im not sorry at ALL for the oil speculator (:shark:)'s who are taking a good licking, with winter coming up here........

[chappy]

Keeping an eye on AIG, I think they're looking for 20 Billion to keep their head above water.

[BUIZILLA]

I reckon AIG is on their own...

[Donziweasel]

Took a beating yesterday with my stocks, but made most of it back up today. Did not have any direct holdings with any of the above mentioned.

[BUIZILLA]

beating huh...

how about 10,000 shares of Fannie Mae you forgot you had.... until last Monday... :doh: :smash:

[MOP]

Think about the root cause! We have been through two major banking problems, one in the late 80's and now. They both come after deregulation of the banks, prior to deregulation loans were fairly cheap and interest was much higher then today. Deregulation turned the banks into big money makers but also mad millions of people pull the funds out and invest them due to the ever shrinking rates. That is exactly what big biz wanted, your money to work with. Your money did big biz no good gathering interest and dust in the banks, they needed it to grow their biz economy not yours!!!! It is a must to get the banks regulated again the proof of deregulation is upon us again!!!!

[txtaz]

Phil, Are you still using the mattress banking system?:smash:

Da Taz<---Yup we will be hurt because some of our stuff is in Lehmans, Merrill and ING through funds.

[slapshot11]

But seriously Scott, ...what do you really think?


I'm with you brother. I've had it.

[chappy]

i have to agree somewhat with what i think phil is mumbling about..

Lack of government supervision/regulation has once again allowed the banks and investment houses to screw us and the economy. We saw it before with the rtc debacle, we are going to see it again (only worse imo) in the coming months as all the ninja (no income no job no assets) loans default. The banks got greedy, the bond markets got greedy, and now the government (us) is going to have to bail them out again. Yet i'll bet ya none of the bigwigs in the failed banks had to forgo their bonus's this year, and if they are forced out will not have to forgo their golden parachute's..

Imtpoo the entire credit industry is one of the most corrupt, poorly managed business's in our country, yet time and time again they have managed to screw the public and the government, while making billions of dollars doing it.. Imo, f em, foreclose on their mansions, private jets and yachts, empty their bank accounts, and return the money to the government to help bail out their screwup..

My name is scott baxter, and i approve this message :d :d :d

Sign me up for this army.

[txtaz]

The pissy fuzzy one has spoken and I have to agree with him. He consistently has a very good opinion. Now don't go getting a big fuzzy head. :doh:

Da Taz<---Not sure I want to see this months statements.:smash:

[The Hedgehog]

Hopefully most of ML's offices will remain intact . Kind of like when Regions bought MK but on a much grander scale. At the end of the day a good core business still exists. B of A will probably strip down and pair out the derivative mess. I am not sure what is going to happen to the off balance sheet portfolio. It would take an army of PhD's and accountants to figure out that portfolio.

Actually the banks are regulated. I do think that the bank regulators should all be under one efficient regulatory agency. Right now you have the various state reg agencies, Fed, FDIC, OCC, OTS ect all doing essentially the same thing. Yes, some pretty major stuff slips through the cracks. Most of what I do involves trying to keep banks out of trouble and I have seen the craziest things in the last five years. I have found some pretty big problems in banks only to have some state guys come in behind me and say "no big deal." Then the banks thinks I am full of BS. Then the FDIC comes in and hammers them. Then the banks call me back and I have to bite my tongue and not say "I told you so." Guess what, it ends up getting charged off. Not a very efficient process. Then I go into a national bank and find a bunch of mortgage problems that the OTS would have caught or go into a Thrift and look at a bunch of bad commercial credit that the OCC would have been all over.....well you get my point.

Yes, the mortgage companies need better regulation. You should see what happens when a bank buys a mortgage company and they are forced to play under bank rules. Then you have regulators come in and they are not exactly sure how to handle it so they ask for the auditors workpapers which may very well produced by some young CPA who does not know his ass from a secondary market hedging operation.

And for the investment guys, don't get me started on that. I took the Series 7 a couple of weeks ago. I looked around the room and thought about how these guys are going to be on the phone offering up investment advice within 3 months and they don't know their ass from a balance sheet. That is how a CMO with a potential market volatility of 45% winds up in a little old lady's portfolio just because it has the letters GNMA on it. Then I find it when doing a suitability analysis for the bank and bring it up to the Principal's attention and he looks at me like "is this a problem?" To which I tell him "Probably not until it gets into the estate and their kids sue your ass for selling that." But hey, we all have to start somewhere right. So why not start somewhere you can be in the third highest paying profession after taking a one week cram course while Dr's and lawyers go to school for many years.

Oh, and if you want to get real depressed, I can tell about you the garbage that is getting ready to surface in bank portfolios this Fall once they can't hide behind dated financial statements and renewals any more.

Ok, rant over. As much as I hate to say it, we do need better regulation. Yes, the pain is not over, but it will end.

[chappy]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26746909

Interesting.

[onesubdrvr]

Well, my wife is in the banking industry (not any of the big ones thank god, but VP of a local bank), and this whole thing just stinks, it's a bad situation that's just getting worse.

Unfortunately, there isn't a definite fix to any of this, all solutions have ups and downs.

I feel for those directly affected by this, The only way this is effecting me is to the extent of the beating the market is taking, and the effect it has on my 401k, but I don't have anything directly with them.

That all being said, my moment of levity

My big two financial bombs (slowing down the Donzi procurment process),...





Wife




Kids

Just kidding by the way :wink: I do love them! :yes:

Wayne

[Tony]

A unanimous call for more regulation?
Hmmm...kind of contrary to what I read in the "Politics" section.

:beer:

[mjw930]

Just curious. Anyone else on the board directly affected by the 2 big Wall Street moves (Lehman bankrupt, Merrill sold)?

I'm sure everyone will be indirectly affected one way or the other.

I manage a technical team at ML, and the future is a bit murky right now to say the least. I'm hearing a lot of rumors about the financial side of the house, but zip on technology. I figure I'll keep doing my job, be optimistic, but have my resume ready. I just bought a house too...........

If anyone else is touched by any of this, I hope things turn out as good as possible.

Directly effected, no, unless you count the 8% loss in my 401K over the last 9 months. Had I not rebalanced the accounts 3 months ago it would have been closer to 15%! From looking at the funds the absolute best low risk fund is still running at a 3% loss for the year. How about that Bush plan to funnel my social security contributions back into the market? Yep, that would have been wonderful to look at as it tanked along with my existing investments......

Indirectly, yes. Case in point, we had a meeting scheduled Monday morning with the CTO from ML to discuss how we use our own technology within our IT organization (Avaya) and it was canceled (not surprising). The indirect effects will manifest themselves in lost revenue which in turn forces IT to reduce its run rate which in turn puts my job and many others at risk.

[The Hedgehog]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26746909

Interesting.

Damn, that almost created an overdraft in my account:smash:

[f_inscreenname]

Took a small beating with FRE. Went back for more today. I figure it will take me out the hole or ride it into oblivion but the shorts ain't gettin it.:wink:
I also bought a little WM just on the chance it has a chance.

PS Hey Hedge, got any picks?

[handfulz28]

Actually the banks are regulated. I do think that the bank regulators should all be under one efficient regulatory agency. Right now you have the various state reg agencies, Fed, FDIC, OCC, OTS ect all doing essentially the same thing.

Hedge, may I ask what line of business you're in now? I'm a former FRB-Atlanta/Miami bank examiner from the mid/late-90s. Corporate treasury/consulting since then. I would hope things have improved since then, but the reg agencies rarely attract the talent needed to understand what to even ask for let alone understand how to interpret it. Outside of the New York Fed, there were probably very few regulators who could understand what was going on back then.

On the flip side, I met/interviewed with FNMA in 2005 to help with their data integrity. I met a couple of dept heads that were the smartest d*mn people I'd ever met. And it was the first time I'd ever been tested, both initially over the phone and with both dept heads on site, on subject matter relevant to the position. But even though these guys were brilliant, and were surrounded with equally bright and motivated people, the place was in shambles. Just too much complexity multiplied by too much volume for everything to be reasonably valued & accounted for within a regulatory accounting timetable. I'm not surprised at what has happened to them.

Something else comes to mind, that maybe the more "experienced" can shed light on. The S&L "crisis." From the little I understand, a lot of that came about from a change in "regulation" (accounting treatment). And from what I've learned in capital markets, perception changes valuation more than "fundamental" factors more often than not. I'm not sure if it's a media thing, or if it's the level of complexity in market products these days, but a high level view would have someone believe everybody has stopped paying their mortgages. Consequently, nobody wants to own anything remotely related to mortgages and the financial institutions have to take an "accounting" loss. Isn't that what created the S&L crisis in the '80s?

If it's been talked about, I haven't read it, but I don't recall a good discussion on how we went from skyrocketing home values to a global financial crisis in one year. I don't think enough "credit" goes to the rapid see-sawing of interest rates, or at least the speed with which rates were raised. I don't think corporate America was ready to see rates rise so quickly and there just wasn't enough time for the economy to adjust.

I don't think we need more regulation. We need a better enticement to bring smart people to the regulatory agencies in order to better understand risk. No regulation will cure the human nature of greed.

[Lenny]

I reckon AIG is on their own...
I think they will get a "pre-Election bail-out" announced by G.W. and backed by the FEDERAL RESERVE ( on your backs) to promote a "Healthy US Republican Economy" going into a November election with McCain and Palin - Obama/Biden.

As well as drop a 1/2 point on Prime in the next three weeks.

No stones please, just an observation waaaayy North of Miami...

In Canada, we follow your bad news with similar, sometimes more depressing news.

We ride on your backs with about 80% of our GDP going South.

Let's put it this way, Deneen doesn't like waking up right now and it is not JUST 'cuz she married me... ;)

But, our housing Market is INSANE, huge dollars, most offshore buyers buying our land/houses are German, and at the same time, the largest percentage of homes bought today in the USA other than indigenous US is by Canadians. That, and also we hold the record with the highest percentage of Foreign Ownership that paid "CASH" in buying Land in your Country...

Talk about a 180...

Oh, and I know you don't want to hear this, but a buddy of mine is seeing Palins (pre-Senate)advisor here in Victoria, (socially) and she tells stories of when she was promoting her (Palin) on her trek for the Senator position in Anchorage.

She (promoter) lives here now, her vehicles and 2 houses in Corpus Cristie/Padre Island remain,.. but, what stories. :rolleyes: I believe the car(s) have gone out to sea but we will find out shortly.

[BUIZILLA]

As well as drop a 1/2 point on Prime in the next three weeks. they missed their chance yesterday, even Suze was surprised...

[gcarter]

This is a subject I know nothing about. During the S&L debacle I remember seeing some institutions run by some smart people do some things I couldn't believe were possible. Twelve to fifteen years later, I'm still amazed.

Slightly different subject...I read yesterday that during the Clinton years that mortgage eligibility regulations were lowered to entice first time, low income home owners. And that was the catalist for the beginning of the debacle we find ourselves in now.
I know that last year the number of bad mortgages was about 2%, does anyone know what it is now?

[Rootsy]

This is a subject I know nothing about. During the S&L debacle I remember seeing some institutions run by some smart people do some things I couldn't believe were possible. Twelve to fifteen years later, I'm still amazed.
Slightly different subject...I read yesterday that during the Clinton years that mortgage eligibility regulations were lowered to entice first time, low income home owners. And that was the catalist for the beginning of the debacle we find ourselves in now.
I know that last year the number of bad mortgages was about 2%, does anyone know what it is now?

speaking of this...

From the NY Post... A little Fannie and Freddie history....

NY POST ARTICLE (http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/02052008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_real_scandal_243911.htm)

[mike o]

I seem to recall a little while back... that AIG was fined by the justice dept... millions of dollars for ripping everybody OFF. Does anybody know anything about that.....:wink:

[gcarter]

speaking of this...
From the NY Post... A little Fannie and Freddie history....
NY POST ARTICLE (http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/02052008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_real_scandal_243911.htm)
So it was initially a Liberal program..........

Of course it doesn't excuse officers of going off the deep end, but w/the pressure being brought on by the Justice Dept, I can see where there would be pressure to perform.

[Lenny]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/16/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?cnn=yes

a Government run Insurance Company... ???

[mike o]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/16/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?cnn=yes

a Government run Insurance Company... ???...:wink::wink:...OOOOOOOOOOOO :canada::canada::canada::canada::canada::canada::c anada::canada:... HOWS THE REST OF THAT GO.

[zelatore]

I reckon AIG is on their own...


Or not....

[zelatore]

A unanimous call for more regulation?
Hmmm...kind of contrary to what I read in the "Politics" section.
:beer:

I kinda chuckled at this as well...

[zelatore]

So it was initially a Liberal program..........


I knew it! It's always those da#m Liberals!

George, your more than welcome to stop by any time your out here and go for a boat ride, but I get the impression you'd be just as happy to wait for The Big One to set California adrift in the pacific! Now if we can only figure out how to kick NYC and the rest of the North East into the Atantic you'd be set!




(in case anybody can't tell, this post should be taken with a joking tone...)

[MOP]

On CH7 this AM they said the CEO of AIG got a parting bonus 8.5 Mil poor bugger!

[BigGrizzly]

I know a little-very little on this but the wife worked on wall street and was a manager at S&P. the reason they bailed out AIG was because they insure a major amount of banks and savings and loan co. It was to save another panic, and rightfully so. Since the congress is democratically it wasn't a Bush deal. I isn't over yet. side not I do support Scott's views

[The Hedgehog]

Hedge, may I ask what line of business you're in now? I'm a former FRB-Atlanta/Miami bank examiner from the mid/late-90s. Corporate treasury/consulting since then. I would hope things have improved since then, but the reg agencies rarely attract the talent needed to understand what to even ask for let alone understand how to interpret it. Outside of the New York Fed, there were probably very few regulators who could understand what was going on back then.

On the flip side, I met/interviewed with FNMA in 2005 to help with their data integrity. I met a couple of dept heads that were the smartest d*mn people I'd ever met. And it was the first time I'd ever been tested, both initially over the phone and with both dept heads on site, on subject matter relevant to the position. But even though these guys were brilliant, and were surrounded with equally bright and motivated people, the place was in shambles. Just too much complexity multiplied by too much volume for everything to be reasonably valued & accounted for within a regulatory accounting timetable. I'm not surprised at what has happened to them.

Something else comes to mind, that maybe the more "experienced" can shed light on. The S&L "crisis." From the little I understand, a lot of that came about from a change in "regulation" (accounting treatment). And from what I've learned in capital markets, perception changes valuation more than "fundamental" factors more often than not. I'm not sure if it's a media thing, or if it's the level of complexity in market products these days, but a high level view would have someone believe everybody has stopped paying their mortgages. Consequently, nobody wants to own anything remotely related to mortgages and the financial institutions have to take an "accounting" loss. Isn't that what created the S&L crisis in the '80s?

If it's been talked about, I haven't read it, but I don't recall a good discussion on how we went from skyrocketing home values to a global financial crisis in one year. I don't think enough "credit" goes to the rapid see-sawing of interest rates, or at least the speed with which rates were raised. I don't think corporate America was ready to see rates rise so quickly and there just wasn't enough time for the economy to adjust.

I don't think we need more regulation. We need a better enticement to bring smart people to the regulatory agencies in order to better understand risk. No regulation will cure the human nature of greed.

I am a consultant in the banking industry. I specialize in asset quality and interest rate risk management.

We have more to go.

By in large most bank regulators I know are smart folks and saw this coming for years. They don't regulate the mortgage business so there was not much they could do.

[mike o]

On CH7 this AM they said the CEO of AIG got a parting bonus 8.5 Mil poor bugger!... counting it all at his mutli- million dollar waterfront 2nd (or 4th) home in the Hamptons. Nice job if ya can get one. In China he would be :hangum: right after to the 2 guys that tainted the milk..:shocking:I dont understand any of this also. EXCEPT that.........:wink: what everside of the isle your on... WE ARE ALL GONNA PAY FOR IT.

[zelatore]

Oh, I understand the idea of a bail out...that it will cost more in the long run to let them go under because it will cause additional problems.

Still, how on earth can the executives still get bonuses?!?!

Somebody should sick the dogs on 'em! Maybe a poodle.

[mike o]

Oh, I understand the idea of a bail out...that it will cost more in the long run to let them go under because it will cause additional problems.

Still, how on earth can the executives still get bonuses?!?!

Somebody should sick the dogs on 'em! Maybe a poodle.... It would be like YOU putting the big 70'er together upside down and getting a big bonus.:wink:

[zelatore]

... It would be like YOU putting the big 70'er together upside down and getting a big bonus.:wink:

Bonus? What's that? I read about them all the time, but much like some of the other disucssions on this board and/or Bigfoot, I view them purely as theoretical creatures.

I hope some day to see one in person. :crossfing:

[gcarter]

A unanimous call for more regulation?
Hmmm...kind of contrary to what I read in the "Politics" section.
:beer:
Tony, notice I didn't call for more regulation. If everyone did the job they were sopposed to, there'd be no need.
Maybe so many institutions should revert back to what they did better. Maybe that's naive, but things worked better then.
Additionally, if what's in the article Jamie posted is true and lending institutions were feeling heat from the Clinton Judicial Dept. (initially anyway) to make those kind of loans, then the persons and groups involved should be responsible also.
What a great idea!!! Attorneys and Liberal groups being sued!

[f_inscreenname]

-950 points in the Dow in the last two days.........Everyone is effected now.:eek!:

[Lenny]

As far as the 8.5 million parting gift, he obviously was a piss-poor negotiater.. :smash:

I believe Freddie and Fanny were somewheres in the neighbourhood of 24 million (each) but the Feds stepped in and declined the payouts. ( I think that is what I read)

[Ghost]

Sign me up for this army.

Poodle, Chappy, I am totally with you. Would someone show me in the Constitution where the powers being exercised now are described? I want to throw up--pretty soon I won't have the right to.

[gcarter]

I just watched Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi both blame the administration, call for extensive investigation into the problem, and for vigorous new regulations in the banking and mortgage industry.
I seem to remember something.....just a minute...it's coming.........Oh! I remember!
Both of these folks are in charge of the two houses that already regulate these industries!!!!
And, oh yeah, they've been in control of them for about 20 months.
I guess they think I'm stupid or something, but even I can figure that out.

[BUIZILLA]

85 BILLION dollar loan, @ 11.sumthin% for 2 years.. prime + 9% isn't a bad return :cool:

[f_inscreenname]

I’m not saying that some of these folks were a sleep at the wheel but…
All this sub prime crap started with Clinton. It was a way for folks of lower income could buy houses with little or no money down. It may have been all in good intention but its just like the speed limit. If the law says 55mph everyone does 65mph and if the cops never patrol the road you can take that up to 75mph.. It takes is a big accident to get everyone’s attention and slow things back down.

[gcarter]

In all seriousness, I'll tell you how it has affected me and my company.
Sales in July and August were really poor. I decided to ask my mortgage company for an equity loan. Before the downturn, it (my house) was appraised at about $390,000 and I owe less than $30K on it. I'll have it paid off in 18-20 months. Both Elaine's and my credit scores are over 800 points. I assumed (wrongly) that it would be done quickly. The processor sent me a request for tax returns for both personal and our corporation for THREE years. Personal and corporate bank statements for the last two months, and a certified letter from our CPA that all the data was correct.
I decided they were looking for a reason to turn me down rather than approve the loan and sent them an email to that affect.
It's easier to bare knuckle it now than to go through those hoops.

[The Hedgehog]

In all seriousness, I'll tell you how it has affected me and my company.
Sales in July and August were really poor. I decided to ask my mortgage company for an equity loan. Before the downturn, it (my house) was appraised at about $390,000 and I owe less than $30K on it. I'll have it paid off in 18-20 months. Both Elaine's and my credit scores are over 800 points. I assumed (wrongly) that it would be done quickly. The processor sent me a request for tax returns for both personal and our corporation for THREE years. Personal and corporate bank statements for the last two months, and a certified letter from our CPA that all the data was correct.
I decided they were looking for a reason to turn me down rather than approve the loan and sent them an email to that affect.
It's easier to bare knuckle it now than to go through those hoops.

I had a similar situation with my mortgage. The underwriter wanted a repayment plan on how I was going to repay a little $20k CD loan secured over 10X over. Being one that looks at underwriting for a living I had to fight pretty hard not to school them on the whole process. You are right, what you experienced is some sad fallout from this whole situation.

[Lenny]

US press release to Staff... and Canadian press release to Staff...

[BUIZILLA]

I decided Monday a week ago i'd had enough of Smith-Barney and their swan songs, and being worried about ALL the broker groups I decided to move everything to a CFP in Nashville that my BIL used, and he made boo-koo GOOD money with...

in the last 10 days of mandatory paper transfers, our accounts as of last night when everything finally moved over were 85k lighter.... that's an $85,000 hit in 10 calender days that I couldn't do squat about, since the transfer is lost in the accounting shuffle between firms.... I should have sold everything at SB on that Monday and bought 30 day Treasury Bonds, then moved it.... but alas, who knew what would transpire starting the Tuesday of last week until now.... soooo, to be blunt, i'll never see that 85k again.... there goes my next boat, and my daughter's new car I promised her.... :garfield:

[roadtrip se]

I put a deposit on a new boat a few weeks ago. Great deal from a belly-up dealer. Decided to finance it, even though I pay cash typically for my toys, due to a slew of personal reasons.

Jill and I are DINKs and we do okay for ourselves. We are responsible users of credit and have great scores. We have been customer's of Wells Fargo since 1990.

I have a HELOC with them on our current Michigan house. There is a floating portion which we use for small stuff and a fixed option, if you want to lock in a rate. I used this fixed rate option to write the loan for the lake house about two years ago. It was a little higher than a mortage, but not much, and we have paid it down by about half. We are in a good debt to equity position.

I called to get a quote for a fixed rate HELOC note on the boat. 9.25-9.5%,no flexibility. Crawled back into the chair. Tried two times with them on mortgages to get a competitive rate on the Michigan house and then Kentucky, the gory details I will spare here, and fired them today after being put through a ringer of ever spiraling requests and conditions. I have had enough of their dumb demands and treating a savy, good credit worthy customer like doo-doo.

Going a different direction now, but the big banks are running scared...

[chappy]

I put a deposit on a new boat a few weeks ago. Great deal from a belly-up dealer. Decided to finance it, even though I pay cash typically for my toys, due to a slew of personal reasons.

Jill and I are DINKs and we do okay for ourselves. We are responsible users of credit and have great scores. We have been customer's of Wells Fargo since 1990.

I have a HELOC with them on our current Michigan house. There is a floating portion which we use for small stuff and a fixed option, if you want to lock in a rate. I used this fixed rate option to write the loan for the lake house about two years ago. It was a little higher than a mortage, but not much, and we have paid it down by about half. We are in a good debt to equity position.

I called to get a quote for a fixed rate HELOC note on the boat. 9.25-9.5%,no flexibility. Crawled back into the chair. Tried two times with them on mortgages to get a competitive rate on the Michigan house and then Kentucky, the gory details I will spare here, and fired them today after being put through a ringer of ever spiraling requests and conditions. I have had enough of their dumb demands and treating a savy, good credit worthy customer like doo-doo.

Going a different direction now, but the big banks are running scared...

What a coincidence, just bought a house and WF was a finalist for the mortgage. After a LOT of speculation, went with another, glad I did after reading this. Thanks for the confirmation RT.

[Rootsy]

The MSM may call him a kook but in reality he's one of the few with his head screwed on pretty damn straight...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022940.html

[Donziweasel]

Bought 3000 shares of Wachovia earlier this week when it tanked to 9.00. Got mine at 9.40. Sold today for 21.00 on the ralley. Best day I have ever had in the market. Took all my money, and had it wired to my bank. Profit will cover the new 18. Market is still too volatile for my taste right now. I still own a lot of Pepsi Co stock, it has been really good to me over the last 4-5 years. It is my long position and I will leave it alone.

[mike o]

The MSM may call him a kook but in reality he's one of the few with his head screwed on pretty damn straight...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022940.html
There goes the dollar. Is this Monday blacker than black monday?:shocking:This is getting real scary, Ron Paul was the only one that told it like it is.

[Ghost]

There goes the dollar. Is this Monday blacker than black monday?:shocking:This is getting real scary, Ron Paul was the only one that told it like it is.

I'm with you. -Mike

[Lenny]

I put a deposit on a new boat a few weeks ago. Great deal from a belly-up dealer...

You NEED to PM me what you are looking at now :D

[mike o]

700 billion divided by aprox 280 million americans = what we get each.... And we'll get the economy going ourselfs.... Let wall st burn:shocking:... Its our $$$$