Donzi 16 OB Horsepower Questions [Archive]

mattyboy

09-12-2008, 01:55 PM

the OB 16 is really no different from the inboard 16 except plug changes and engine work easy on a ladder than in a bilge especially with a v8 16
I ran with a 230hp johnrude OB 16 all the time the boat was almost identical in speed and handling to my I/O 310 hp 16 he was a little faster on calmer water in rougher water the added weight of a volvo and motor helped the I/O
the classic deep vee hull handling quirks need some time to get use to ,they lean hard in turns( you can put the hand rails under water and if your tabs are set wrong they will stay there while the boat continues to track straight, they re enter pitched to one side sometimes, they porpoise, they chine/gunwale walk depending on the prop, they have little to no storage, they are hard on passengers in rough water they need trim and a level attitude to really run fast, tabs are helpful, the transom can be made strong enough for a 300
they built around 160 something 16 OB's most came in all white with a light blue stripes and all light blue interior
the older hulls pre 1990's are a little different from the post 1990 boats the older hulls are a little wider you ride on a 16 freeboard is low but on an OB not as low as an I/O the 16 is basically a big unforgiving jet ski( not in handling but in the aspect of speed and closness to the water) with the right prop/trim setup can be an agile exilirating ride capable of over 70 mph in the right seasoned hands without the right setupand in unseasoned hands can be a nightmare at just over 40mph
you can keep all of your knowledge of 18 plus years of powerboating as far as docking , tieing off as such but under way the 16 or any other classic hull need seat time to get the feel for the quirks don't treat them like a PWC or they will come up and bite you and your passengers

they are a crowd pleaser at the docks once use to their quirks they are a blast to drive
good luck

Greg Guimond

09-12-2008, 03:40 PM

Any other 16 OB owners out there with feedback for Andy ?

Donzi Racer

09-12-2008, 08:59 PM

Any other 16 OB owners out there with feedback for Andy ?

When I was 15 tender years old, my boat crazy Grandpa and I saw a 1971 Donzi Baby OB sitting at a marina without a motor. Someone had used it one season with a 135 hp merc & the merc was stolen off the back. They spent the insurance money and decided to sell the Baby instead of re-rigging it. We, meaning my Grandfather, bought the boat and put a 115 hp Merc outboard on it. I remember being disapointed because it was not the 150 hp model. Well let me tell you, that boat was a 16 year old kids dream boat. I used to lust after the v-8 18 classics but wow what a ski boat this jewel was. Although skinny as a kid (not anymore) , I could almost steer most any boat I skiied behind, just by laying down hard one direction or the other. Most of my friends had Checkmates or Baha's. The amazing thing about the Donzi was I could lay down on a slalomn ski & not even think about budging the boat with the 1050 lb hull compared to the lightweight hulls of the other boats. Although we used it for waterskiing and taught all the grandkids how to ski behind the Baby Donzi, my Grandpa used to be a small hydro racer and he wanted to get every ounce of speed out of the ole girl. So we started with a stock windshield and an aluminum prop. We got around 53 mph with my skinny 110lbs driving. We got rid of the windshield, 3/8's of a tank of gas, the **** pit cover on with the zippered driver hatch out, & a 2 blade bronze racing prop cupped just so, I could get 55 to 56 depending on the water condition. Now that was 35 years ago and we did not know what a radar or a gps was so it was the boat speedo we were using which was probably more like 50 to 53 mph true speed. Now I believe it was 1975 to 1976, a new outboard motor hit the boat market. Merc 1750 BLACK MAX. Sent chills down our spines, so my dear sweet grand pop bought the very 1st Black Max outboard in North Alabama. I could not sleep waiting on that beast to be slapped on. While the 115-150hp inline 6 was the very perfect power to weight ratio for the overall performance of the Baby. You could do NO WRONG with that set up. The Black Max was a nightmare. Way too heavy for the rear and while the 115 was set on a 1 1/2" step board, they put 6 inches under the Max. Scared the smiling mighty Jesus out of me. The boat was all over the river. They asked us if we wanted a new fangled gadget called a kill switch put on the boat with the extra hp? I said sure, I will never use it but what the hey. Let me tell you I did not leave the dock without that string atached somehow. Well the Max cost about double what the 115 cost and when we could keep it in the water and yes I had them lower the motor back on the hull a bit. Maybe around 2 1/2" step, I could get it to around 57 mph top speed and gave up everything as far as handling, steering, safety, & water skiing. Since we were such early customers and extremely disapointed, the dealership, Merc. Racing, and the merc mechanics went crazy trying to send us props, racing carbs, tuning, and anything they could come up with to make us happier. All I remember was we lived about 10 miles from the marina that had gas on our river. We would go over with the 115 and get gas on the weekend and use the boat all week and then go back the following weekend to fill back up. With the Black Max, we would take around a 1/4 of a tank to go to the marina and 1/4 to get back. Go skiing a few times and it was time to go over again. That summer after the Black Max went on, I washed my grandmothers car every day and mowed the 2 acre yard every few days just to get the gas credit card to try and keep gas in that monster. We never saw 60 mph & 58 mph was about the best we got. I turned 21 years old, bought out my grandfather and took the Black Max off and put back the 115 on the jewel.
Now since then I have had 2 more of the Babies, have one right now with a 200 Yamaha and although it is not super fast it will do just about 60 mph with everything just right including the prop. My advice is enjoy the jewel. For those that have not had one, they do not know what they are missing. If the 150 omc is not too heavy, keep it and maybe put a power jack on it and get Grizz to help you prop it correctly and you should be very happy. I will say the Donzi Babies have come a long way. When I first joined this forum, they were almost not considered Donzi's. Now some of the more experienced Donzi owners on this site look admiringly at these little jewels when they become available. We really enjoy ours and it is perfect for my nephew and neice to learn about the water and be safe while doing it. We did put a full stainless steel transom plate across ours for added strength, thanks to Buizilla. If you can break away, come to Destin area in a few weeks for the Owners Rally and I am sure you will get lots of enjoyment and advise on your little jewel. People that know me, know that I talk like I write, Sorry Guys but these little boats are my passion in life. Please do not tell Rose I said that. Oh yea she already knows. hahahahahahahah The Racer

BigGrizzly

09-13-2008, 09:27 AM

If I had the money, I would do a 16 ob with a 150 Honda. Speed ,handling and most of all fuel economy. I could even be enticed to go with the new Honda 90 Honda. The last test I did on it before I left Honda was out standing. Same speed, lighter weigh and better fuel economy the old 90 Honda.

Donziweasel

09-13-2008, 09:29 AM

If I had the money, I would do a 16 ob with a 150 Honda
Randy, I am surprised, I thought you were a Yamaha man.:)

Donziracer, great story, makes me want a 16 OB.:wink:

BigGrizzly

09-13-2008, 09:55 AM

DW, you missed something. I worked for Honda for 24 years and retired in 2006 and now I go back on the contracting basis. As for Yamaha, my wife did work for them, and they do a good product. Now Precision is owned by them, because they have been looking for a long time to buy a propeller company, and like Honda only want the best. I don't have prejudiced against any body. If it pink with purple poke-a-dots if it is good use it.

Donziweasel

09-13-2008, 09:56 AM

Randy, just kidding, I know you are a Honda man.:wink:

BigGrizzly

09-13-2008, 10:27 AM

Just so you know there is a OB guy that is shooting to break the 80 mph mark, and after talking to him he will do it or die trying. Me I think he is goingto succeed.

Greg Guimond

09-16-2008, 09:56 PM

Only two 16 OB owners on this board?

BigGrizzly

09-17-2008, 09:09 AM

The rest are hiding, I don't know why.

HIGH LIFE

09-17-2008, 09:34 AM

Greg, We should have a rollcall of o/b owners !! DMR161510276 Motor : Mariner 200 White hull w/ red stripe & waterline, original trailer. "HIGH LIFE"

cutwater

09-17-2008, 04:25 PM

Cause we are working with CMI on headers for Verado's so we can sound cooooool too :D :D :D

llllrrriinnggg da da ding ding ding ding... nothing beats the sound of a weed-eater, I mean egg-beater!

Greg Guimond

09-18-2008, 03:27 PM

Does anyone know where this 16 OB went? Sold by Gordon Bay Marina I believe.

Greg Guimond

09-18-2008, 08:06 PM

"MadPoodle" - do you own a 16 OB hull and if you do how is it powered?

mike o

09-18-2008, 09:06 PM

Does anyone know where this 16 OB went? Sold by Gordon Bay Marina I believe.... the old school windshield..:wink:

Greg Guimond

09-18-2008, 09:23 PM

Windshields are as rare as 16's that GPS 80 with current owners!

Greg Guimond

09-23-2008, 07:40 AM

Well at least there are ( 3 ) slow 16 eggbeaters out there ! Makes you wonder if Donzi really built 200 overall and how many are left. Even the guy who started this thread, Andy, is no where to be seen :boggled:

BigGrizzly

09-23-2008, 09:58 AM

I like this post, keep going!

handfulz28

09-23-2008, 10:29 AM

Blue one w/200Merc @$5250
http://staugustine.en.craigslist.org/boa/846368904.html

There was one in Stuart, red with 120 Johnrude that sold for $4200 a little over a week ago. Supposedly it was someone relatively close by. Craigslist ad is deleted but somebody got a great deal on that one.

I live pretty close to Andy. I'll have to get in touch and see how he's making out.

mattyboy

09-23-2008, 11:24 AM

this is the one I know of John Benkcozy sold it I am not sure where it wound up

this was one of the nicest ones I have seen and don't let the engine cowling fool ya it made well of 200 hp

http://www.donzi.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2203&cat=540

cutwater

09-23-2008, 11:33 AM

Holy moly whose Hornet is this???? It's beautiful!

http://www.donzi.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2216&cat=540

Sorry for the hijack, maybe I should ask this in another thread.

mattyboy

09-23-2008, 12:38 PM

that is Pizazz ( sp) it is a bench seat hornet owned by the Friehoffer's ( of friehoffer's bakery) from lake george

Greg Guimond

09-23-2008, 01:19 PM

"mattyboy" - John Benkcozy's 16 O/B was sold by John to a gentleman in PA I believe. I am not sure if that owner still has the boat or is a board member here. It had a unique color scheme that was non stock.

It looks like "High Life" and "MadPoodle" are the only current owners of high powered eggbeaters.

(3) 16 OB's and climbing...............

Any other lurkers out there feel free to chime in !

John Benkoczy

09-28-2008, 01:09 PM

Hey Greg - I did sell by OB to a fellow in PA - not sure if he's on the board. I bought an 18 2+3 last year (former life in Poodle's stable).
Matty - it was actually a 175HP - the 16 Baby is a very light hull - ran about 56 on GPS
JB

Greg Guimond

09-28-2008, 05:17 PM

I thought the 16 Baby O/B ended up in PA John but I was not sure if that owner still has that particular O/B boat. What color is that on your 18 sides? That is a great looking color. Does anyone know what the weight of a rigged 16 O/B is without eggbeater?

HIGH LIFE

09-28-2008, 10:52 PM

Greg, I believe the weight is 1,150#. I think I'll mess around and weight mine with & w/o engine and determine how big my gas tank is, I had it in the garage today and tried to view the plate on the tank. It is located on the section just ahead of the sending unit , under the fiberglass only have 1" space to try to read numbers! HIGH LIFE

Greg Guimond

10-03-2008, 03:29 PM

Tell us what it weighs HIGHLIFE.

Still wondering if ANY board member have seen 16's for sale out there?

handfulz28

10-03-2008, 04:38 PM

Still wondering if ANY board member have seen 16's for sale out there?

OBs? There's been a few links posted in different threads. Are you on the Screamandfly thread with the IO converted to OB?

Greg Guimond

10-05-2008, 08:54 PM

handfulz28

10-05-2008, 10:18 PM

http://www.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=cpboat&itm=donzi&state=&fil=16&ys=&ye=

My preferred search method. One on Long Island and one in North Florida from a couple weeks ago.

I knew you weren't the guy selling the one in the Bahamas, just wondering if you were Greg G.

Donzi Racer

10-05-2008, 10:49 PM

Tell us what it weighs HIGHLIFE.

Still wondering if ANY board member have seen 16's for sale out there?

Not for Sale, but we still have one. White w/lt. blue stripe and 200 hp Yamaha. Can't talk my brother into selling. Tom

mattyboy

10-06-2008, 07:52 AM

No that gentleman is somewhere in the Bahamas I believe. Hard to find info on the eggbeaters which "mattyboy" indicates where less than 170 in total production. Certainly not ultra rare but only three of them on this board. Do you have one? Do you know where one is currently for sale?

Greg ,
as I said not every Donzi owner is a member here , some might be in the registry but don't participate. You also have to take in to consideration the age of these boats I would imagine some have met their demise I know of the existence of about 10 or so boats 3/4 of which I know don't post here.

mattyboy

10-06-2008, 08:54 AM

wonder how this runs??wonder who owns it?? got it in an email
from the maytag man subject "eggbeaters are faster that's no yolk"

BigGrizzly

10-06-2008, 09:01 AM

Matty, I know the answer, ask Greg, that is his 16 with a modified hull. We are in the process of re-propping it now, holding off until spring due to weather. Greg is a super guy, and we need to talk him into going to the Dust Off.

mattyboy

10-06-2008, 09:25 AM

gonna be mid 60's all week in the NYC tristate area plenty of time to get some testing in ;) of course it will be mid to low 30's at night by me
so we took the cig for the last dance yesterday and winterized her oh well
I think Greg emailed me awhile back , I gave him all I had on the OB 16's
highlights
most baby 16 were all white with light blue stripes and interior altho some had red or yellow stripes with white interior and a few had colored sides not sure if this was a cost reduction procedure so that bilt rite didn't need to make RH interiors in multiple colors??
Approx 170 were produced and documented by donzi between 1970 and 1978 this doesn't take into account some prototypes made by the factory before that and the fact that a few more were produced during AMH ownership in the mid to late 90's one of which i think lives in florida now

Greg Guimond

10-06-2008, 04:54 PM

mike o

10-06-2008, 05:03 PM

Did you go look at the one near you on Long Island I Posted for you?

Greg Guimond

10-06-2008, 05:12 PM

Mike,

I spoke to the LI gentleman but not my cup of tea as the upholstery was maroon and not red.

Are you one of the (10) O/B owners?

mike o

10-06-2008, 05:31 PM

Mike,

I spoke to the LI gentleman but not my cup of tea as the upholstery was maroon and not red.

Are you one of the (10) O/B owners?..... Sir, I am not. Last outboard I owned was a MARK 78A, that I restored for a 16' Lone Star. Pretty much a straight inboard guy... till I bought the 95 16. Ist I/O I have ever owned.:cool!::cool!::cool!:

mattyboy

10-06-2008, 09:54 PM

matty,
Obviously not every owner of a 16 is an active participant on this forum. I just want to be sure that you are saying that you know of (10) 16 O/B boats. Is that accurate? Thanks for the clarification.
handfulz28,
The 16 O/B in Florida has been sold, perhaps to one of the (10) folks that matty mentions above, but that is just a guess on my part.
Also, don't always trust what you see in pictures. Graphics and Photoshop are amazing these days and can fool you. Just see the attached!

wtf I don't understand your question and I am always accurate :rolleyes:
yes I know of these boats real donzi ob's

fish's white blue actually fish's mom's boat
Frank C's sons white blue
the long island ob 16 for sale white and red
the toms river ob that just sold white and red
the yellow and white one in Lk george
John b's old boat not sure on original color
the mid 90's Ob in Fla red and white
white and blue OB on my lake with a blue tinted windshield nice boat
Steve Fass's best friend white and blue one in NJ
and the pad bottom white and blue one in florida or where ever that one ended up
and the authenticity of these are easy as most of the ones made were after nov 72 and should have the hin stamped on the back

here's a shot of the lg white and yellow one the only one i have seen in this color but hey with photoshop the sky is the limit :confused:

BUIZILLA

10-07-2008, 06:39 AM

Donzi racer has one
there is another in Pt St Lucie
there is another in WPB
one in the Grove
one in Key Largo

i'm sure i'll think of a few more

mattyboy

10-07-2008, 07:08 AM

photoshop I got ya photoshop right here

is it live or memorex :tongue:

i forgot about this one but then again ya can't count it

Poodle
I am correct about AMH making a few less than 5 OB's????

mike o

10-07-2008, 07:26 AM

Donzi racer has one
there is another in Pt St Lucie
there is another in WPB
one in the Grove
one in Key Largo

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.:kingme::kingme:..Well Here I go again. Im gonna get in trouble:biggrin.::biggrin.:... but besides the red hulled with the (cool windshield)... I pm you about on the west coast (you asked about)..thats for sale again.... low and behold (there a pretty blue hull one In my home - 20 state). Not gonna say the year (might get it wrong:biggrin.:). Now you can own three of u -mmmm (hold ya fire) (NH craigslist)................gotta go back to the canoe shop and work.... cant practice the link thingy (right now). En-:biggrin.::biggrin.:-joy..............

BUIZILLA

10-07-2008, 07:40 AM

one more in Jensen Beach

Greg Guimond

10-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Thanks for all the info guys.......much appreciated.

Greg Guimond

10-07-2008, 10:41 AM

BUIZILLA

10-07-2008, 10:48 AM

there were only 4 in the 1996 run..

mattyboy

10-07-2008, 10:56 AM

the last ob pic nis not an outboard it is an I/O boat that was plugged and bracketed

the early blue was christina blue, i believe in the 70's it was called barbados blue but i will check mini craft should have the gelcote codes

thanks Jim that's what i needed

mike o

10-07-2008, 11:15 AM

Matty, that all blue landlocked hull is very interesting. Do you happen to know what the actual formal name is for the light blue that is most prevalent in the 16 builds? Even better would be the color code and manufacturer.

And Mike O, that 16 O/B in New Hampshire has been for sale for over a year, and at $15,000 ask will still be for sale well after the DJIA falls below 9,000. The gentleman claims it has factory saddle tanks......makes the one on LI kinda attractive. Thats why I stuck it on here, since I saw ya lookin. With the 61 mark 78A with the button throttle(or nice old merc) on the back... be way cool vintage package:worthy:...

Kirbyvv

10-07-2008, 11:19 AM

That yellow OB at Lake George is actually from Brant lake, NY, owned by Linda Lewis. She bought it in FL and hauled it up here to her fathers place a few years ago. I don't think it gets used very often. Been trying to get her to the Dust Off, but she has made a couple of the fall LG picnics.

mike o

10-07-2008, 11:52 AM

http://nh.en.craigslist.org/boa/863972022.html :biggrin.::biggrin.::biggrin.: Thanks Matt.:biggrin.::biggrin.::biggrin.: If there wasnt a wedding in the fam this weekend ... Id running LG this weekend, I would have bought ya a toddy or 2.... Now I'm danger-us.:nilly:

Greg Guimond

10-07-2008, 05:34 PM

Matty,

At the start of this thread you state .......

"I ran with a 230hp johnrude OB 16 all the time the boat was almost identical in speed and handling to my I/O 310 hp 16 he was a little faster on calmer water in rougher water the added weight of a volvo and motor helped the I/O"

Where you referring to John B's boat which actually had the 175 weed wacker on it or were you actually talking about an entirely different 16 O/B with perhaps an old 235 Evinrude on it?

mattyboy

10-07-2008, 08:48 PM

no not john's boat altho I did run with him John says 175 to me it seem to run more like a +200hp he always seemed faster than me, the 230 boat had a much older johnrude than John's on it and is was the white and blue one i mentioned on my lake the owner said it had been worked on and was 230hp the motor was all spray painted white with light blue stripes i have not seen that boat in sometime

HIGH LIFE

10-07-2008, 10:10 PM

The blue boat on the mound looked alot like the DONZI that Sean,on Long Island was selling around the first of the year. Where was this picture taken ? Anyone have a H.I.N. HIGH LIFE

mattyboy

10-08-2008, 07:55 AM

Thanks John just what I wanted to hear I was getting past by a guy who only had 175 hp ;) :tongue: I mean what is 25hp between friends ;)

the blue boat is an early 16 judging by the color( christina blue ) and the lack of clam shell vents it was taken somewhere in your neck of the woods ma,me or I think vermont several years ago

Kirbyvv

10-08-2008, 08:08 AM

John B, where have you been hiding this year?

HIGH LIFE

10-18-2008, 06:06 PM

I was just wondering the difference horsepower rating on a 16 effect speed, 115hp-150hp-175hp-200hp-225hp-300hp...HIGH LIFE

maddad

10-26-2008, 08:29 PM

mattyboy

10-27-2008, 11:04 AM

Mike,

no i don't think so as i recall it didn't have bottom paint but i have not seen it in several years and the motor cowling was all white it had no johnson or hp designations on it

we had a auto body guy very talented tiger o'brein in the lake in the mid to late 70's we had a bunch of carlson glastron guys and checkmate guys have him spray the motor cover to match the boat this donzi had one of those paint jobs on it's motor it all white litle blue pinstripes it was fashionable if you had an eggbeater and didn't have a tiger o'brein paint job you were not hip. the boat lay dormant for along time then as many of the donzi on my lake the owners got to old or past away leaving the boat to their family then they have moved on or sold it the daughter ran the boat for a few years and then it vanished I am still trying to find the minx that was on the lake it was mint and had no thru hull and an anchor shade it came that way from the factory the older couple sold their house and i have not seen the boat since

HIGH LIFE

10-30-2008, 05:12 PM

Anyone know where I could purchase a stainless steel rub rail for a 16' Donzi outboard ? HIGH LIFE

loudpipes2

11-20-2008, 10:17 AM

Been stored since 1990 when i brought it!!!06 put new 04 125 merc. New steering new controls new gages split hull inspected installed new fuel cell boat is the balls runs 55 mph all day must sell needs interior only!!!call mark 603 509 3331

loudpipes2

11-26-2008, 09:12 AM

BigGrizzly

11-26-2008, 10:55 AM

I though they hid that pretty well. I guess Poodle can find anything. I am told in a 24 hour race they stop 4 + less times then the others.

Donzi Racer

01-23-2009, 09:44 PM

Donzi racer has one
there is another in Pt St Lucie
there is another in WPB
one in the Grove
one in Key Largo

i'm sure i'll think of a few more

We also sold a 1974 Baby 16 with a 175 hp Merc to a guy from Jacksonville. It was white with teal stripe. Was a few years back.

Conquistador_del_mar

01-24-2009, 01:36 AM

I was just wondering the difference horsepower rating on a 16 effect speed, 115hp-150hp-175hp-200hp-225hp-300hp...HIGH LIFE

Michael,
Here is one place. If you buy the longer sticks, it has to go common carrier if I remember right. Bill
http://www.rubrails.com/stainless_steel.html

MOP

01-25-2009, 07:23 PM

Hey Matty, any chance this is the spray painted white with lt. blue stripe outboard 16 you're thinking of ?

Mike was that the one that was out in Mattituck?? If not I might be able to get a lead on another one.

Phil

Donziweasel

01-25-2009, 08:07 PM

John, by the look of the invoice, the dealer was trying to cover his ass. No coast guard rating, boat not safe, needs hydrualic or dual steering. Did he give you a bunch of greif about putting the 175 on?

AndyDiSario

03-04-2009, 01:35 PM

Thank you all for your generous advice!

My wife and I have taken out our Donzi Sweet 16 OB Classic just thrice so far. We found it is a wonderful boat, althought there is a learning curve to conquer for sure, foremost for safety and usability. I've added a swim platform, telescoping ladder, anchors, handles, extra cleats and more. Along with a bigger project at the house (building an extra garage), I've concentrated first on just setting the boat up for our use.

Next, I'd like to work on eliminating chine walking at top speed, which is currently a modest 48 mph GPS. The boat rocks port-to-starboard on its chines near the stern at top speed. I've heard a jack plate may help tune for a better ride and less chine walk. I don't know. I will need to try adjusting the trim tabs more, as well as gain more experience, also. If necessary, I will consider adding adjustable aftermarket sponsons, the same as is used in the PWC industry to eliminate severe chine walk.

After that, I wish to go faster, a lot faster. I'm told the jack plate can help with this. Currently, the boat is powered by a 150 HP Johnson V6 driving an as-new three-blade aluminum prop. In the future (way in the future), I'm currently thinking of attempting to sell the Johnson and repower with a more-powerful two-stroke.

As always, I'm open to all your experienced advice.

Regards,
Andy DiSario
11351 Lake Tree Ct.
Boca Raton, FL 33498
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net

AndyDiSario

03-16-2009, 07:52 AM

An update: My wife and I had a wonderful day this past Saturday taking out the Donzi. It was a beautiful day, so we circled the Loxahatchee Everglades rim canal here in Palm Beach County, FL. As is typical in the 'Glades, many birds and gators were to be seen and slalomed around. This Donzi Classic 16 is one sweet ride -- I'm really falling in love with it. It jumps out of the hole (pops onto plane), accelerates, rides, corners, even stops so very well with its deep Vee. It's just that top speed is not there yet in my opinion (47.9 mph on the GPS at very best).

The test of my minor mods and upgrades done over winter proved successful. After quite some tinkering with starting fluid and the primer ball to get the Johnson 150 started, the boat performed flawlessly all day. I was ready to experiment with the trim tabs as needed (which are still new to me), but they really were not required. The objective was to try the tabs to help control chine walking, but honestly the boat did not actually chine walk on Saturday. At present I am at a loss to explain why, as we did experience chine walk last autumn in the Intracoastal.

Anyway, my next objectives will be to install Faria depth sounder and volt meter, then a marine 12 volt outlet (cigarette lighter outlet -- adaptive technology at best). Then, seriously, I want to go faster, much faster.

I'm considering a hydraulic jack plate. I'm told raising the motor so the prop runs half-in, half-out of the water will increase speed drastically, and somehow control chine walking simultaneously (?). Of course, a lower water pickup will be required. This seems most unnatural to me, as I'm bred on PWC where jet pump cavitation is to be absolutely avoided; also, whenever I bring the trim up far to expose the prop on the Donzi or our 18' Stingray OB, the prop begins to cavitate, revs rise, speed falls off, etc. What truly is the advantage of a hydraulic jack plate? How many mph can it give my Donzi? Besides not altering the angle of the boat in the water (as does trim), what are its real advantages? Anyone have advice what to expect with this?

Still, the motorhead in me wants to simply buy and bolt on more power -- a lot more power, fitting a hydraulic jack plate between motor and transom while I'm at it, should I be convinced it too is worthwhile. A powerful 2-stroke would be the choice due to its power-to-weight advantages. My big question: Just how much 2-stroke motor can the Donzi 16 OB handle? Will the transom need reinforcement? How is this done? Anyone know a good OB shop with experience doing this, anywhere near So FL?

As usual, advice is appreciated.

Regards,
Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net

Just Say N20

03-16-2009, 08:27 AM

I ran a 16' Laser (the company name before it went to LTV) with an Evinrude 200. The boat had a pad bottom, or the keel did not go to a point, but was a flat "pad" that was about 8" wide. This gave the boat something to ride on when really moving.

The jack plate does a couple of things. It moves the engine back slightly, giving the engine additional trim leverage. You will be able to achieve the same running angle with less engine trim.

It also gets less lower unit in the water, which in higher speeds (70+ mph) is a major source of drag. A properly designed propeller will actually do very well running in a surface piercing situation. It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the cavitation issue with the impeller in a jet pump.

When I first installed the 200, I was running a "chopper" style propeller. This type of prop has a lot of blade area, decent rake, and mine was cupped along the outside edge to give a little more bite. I had to run a decent amount of trim to get the boat running freely. It ran 74 RADAR mph.

After I installed the jack plate, added a nose cone to the lower unit (I experienced "blow out" at 80 mph, where the lower unit punches a big enough hole in the water as it moves through it, that it starves the prop blades for water, and they begin to cavitate wildly loosing thrust, causing very exciting things to happen quickly), went to a cleaver style propeller which are not usually good at providing bow lift, and raised the engine so when the prop shaft was parallel to the bottom of the boat, the top of the gear housing was even with the bottom of the boat.

This allowed me to have less drag, a more efficient lower unit, and run with less trim which was more efficient. When you trim the engine up to lift the bow, it does create less wet surface, but the thrust is no longer exactly in the direction of travel.

I increased top speed from 74 RADAR mph, to 87 RADAR mph by doing these things.

The concept is the same, but I imagine the results would be less because you are running a deep vee hull without a "pad" for the boat to run on. But the principles are the same.

This is the boat (and me, in 1983!). In the video you can see the engine is up pretty high, and does not look excessively trimmed out, but the boat is running very free.

Hope this helps.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/streb2005/LaserScan60.jpg

http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/streb2005/videos/?action=view&current=LaserFlyBymov.flv

Ghost

03-16-2009, 09:06 AM

That video looks like you've got it dialed in about perfectly, and the surface conditions look about perfect to aerate just enough without bouncing you around. (Though with so little hull in the water, I dunno how much that even matters.)

Just Say N20

03-16-2009, 10:12 PM

One other important issue is steering slop. Hydraulic is the best; no play and no feedback against the wheel. On my outboard I ran dual steering cables, tightened against each other so there was no slop.

With a single cable, the actual cable can move inside the housing from the inside of the bends, to the outside of the bends, and this creates play, which allows the engine to oscillate back and forth, contributing to chine walking.

Sorry if this is "stupid obvious" but it seemed like you are learning about new performance issues with the OB Donzi 16, and the steering thing is pretty basic, and very important.

seano

03-17-2009, 05:45 AM

photoshop I got ya photoshop right here
is it live or memorex :tongue:
i forgot about this one but then again ya can't count it
Poodle
I am correct about AMH making a few less than 5 OB's????

The blue boat is mine. It was originally an I/O that was converted. I was going to sell it, but now I am in the process of converting it back to I/O.

I have had a new interior made for it and have purchased the correct controls. I've also purchased a low-hour 350 mag/alpha package for it. Hope to complete it this year, but it still needs alot of work...

mattyboy

03-17-2009, 08:46 AM

The blue boat is mine. It was originally an I/O that was converted. I was going to sell it, but now I am in the process of converting it back to I/O.
I have had a new interior made for it and have purchased the correct controls. I've also purchased a low-hour 350 mag/alpha package for it. Hope to complete it this year, but it still needs alot of work...

Nice,

great to hear that one more saved ;)

AndyDiSario

03-18-2009, 10:07 PM

Wow,

I'm floored by all the advice from everyone, and much impressed by the wealth of knowledge especially passed along by "Just Say N20". Much appreciation. Your boat is ultra cool and the video at speed is just amazing. Your Laser is so well dialed-in -- very admirable. Here I am now wishing my Donzi 16 also had a flat pad just at the stern keel behind its Vee, so it too had the potential of safely reaching such high speed in the right conditions.

I read and reread your append in order to better digest this clear information. Yours is the best description of jack plate functionality I've read thus far. For example, I hadn't thought before about a jack plate increasing trim leverage. Another good point I now better understand is as you say, "when you trim the engine up to lift the bow, it does create less wet surface, but the thrust is no longer exactly in the direction of travel."

Yesterday, I called a trusted marine mechanic, Steve in Fort Lauderdale, of http://www.powerboatservices.com/

I explained what fun my wife and I are having with this little Donzi. (OK, I readily admit, I'm the one who is the performanc junkie, which applies to all my vehicles.) I explained the objective to eventually go a lot faster, all the while maintaining control and limiting chine walking also. I wish to exceed the speed I enjoyed back in 1995 racing my Yamaha WaveRaider 1100; this PWC rode and handled terribly, drenched its riders in any chop, offered miniscule storage along with a ton of other user-unfriendly characteristics, however, it reached 62 mph in glassy water rising up onto a notched step at jet pump. This was a speed unheard of with PWC of the era.

We agreed my Donzi is not currently proped correctly, as the 150 HP Johnson reaches only about 4800 RPM at top speed of 47.9 mph in the best, calm water conditions (ripples), using its current aluminum prop. So naturally a new, well-tuned SS prop allowing the Johnson to reach maximum RPM of 5500, along with what I've learned about a jack plate should increase speed. However, I explained my ultimate objective is to reach *a lot* more speed, so I asked the same repower questions, of which I wrote in my first append. Ideally, I'd rather expend resources ($, time and effort) in the first place towards the ultimate objective.

Starting with the very basics, how much power can it handle? How much weight can it handle? Is it necessary and possible to reinforce the transom to repower with more motor?

Steve estimated my Johnson's weight at 350 - 375 pounds. I assumed a 2.6L 200 hp E-Tec at 419 lbs. was a reasonable maximum; nevertheless, Steve suggested a big block motor instead may be feasible and the best choice. Me being the same guy I've always been, I'm interested in the most bang for the buck and biggest bang for the pound (power-to-weight ratio), within practical maximum limits. Naturally, I must avoid adding so much weight that the outboard well swamps excessively should throttle need be abruptly cut!

That lead me currently towards looking at (wishing for) the Mercury Optimax 250 2-stroke -- 250 hp, 3032 cc and 505 lbs. Sound crazy?

I expressed wonder whether my boat could actually handle the weight. Steve suggested just to begin by seeing how the boat sits in the water with me stepping out over the transom. (I weigh nearly 180 lbs.)

Soon we will have the boat out in the salt water next. Gaining more driving experience and trying this little weight test will be my next objectives.

I tried uploading a few photos, taken courtesy of the prior owner. Note the 175 engine cover is not original.

Andy DiSario

Planetwarmer

03-18-2009, 11:40 PM

Put a Merc 2.5, hydraulic steering, and a jack plate on it.:superman:

BUIZILLA

03-19-2009, 07:54 AM

200 XS and a jackplate

what year is it?

BlownCrewCab

03-19-2009, 08:34 AM

Put a Merc 2.5, hydraulic steering, and a jack plate on it.:superman:

Growing up we had a 16 Manta (same as a 16 Donzi) after we sold it the guy put a 2.4 merc on it, Steve Curtis was the only one who would run it wide open. when we asked him how fast it went he said he didn't know because the speedo stoped at 75mph, but it went allot past 75.

AndyDiSario

03-19-2009, 09:55 AM

Buizilla,

The boat is a 1972.

Yes, the 200 XS with jack plate does look as though it could be a reasonable, slightly-lighter compromise than a 250, though I'd choose the 225 XS over it due its exact same weight as the 200 (497 lbs dry).
-------------

Madpoodle,

You're right. I see specs now that the 300 is listed as the same 505 lbs, though earlier thought I'd seen it listed a little heavier. With an increase from 3032 to 3160 cc, it'd be the torquier choice. Hmmm, very cool. No replacement for displacement, right, bud?

I do need to at least consider fuel range though, as a lower, but still-significant priority, because we often use our boats to cruise and tour many miles; my darling wife will not be too impressed if I need to constantly refuel, quickly exhausting any reserve I can carry, then frequently hunting for marinas. I know a four-stroke inherently offers superior economy, however I am not willing to consider its weight penalties. Instead, I'm hoping a modern direct-fuel-injected 2-stroke is the way to go.

You see, there are never-ending and ever-increasing bans, restrictions and general foolish, toylike-treatment by others applying to PWC in our area. I could write an article about the stupid accidents and incidents my wife, buddies and I have personally attempted to prevent, witnessed, been victim of and yes, rescued the seriously-injured parties and their cracked PWC. I am attempting to gently move my wife away from our current 2004 Waverunner FX160 HO to the Donzi Classic as our regular sport-boat of choice. Note the Waverunner FX is good for 58 mph GPS in calm water.

My wife is a tough sell, as she positively loves the FX, far more than any of the seven prior PWC we've owned over the years. Indeed, the FX is a quiet, smooth-running, efficient, reliable machine. We've used PWC for nearly two decades now as sport-touring boats, with bow- and stern-tubs stuffed full of cooler and boating gear, as well as dry-bags for more storage strapped to their boarding platforms. Now it's time for a change, and I see the Donzi Classic hopefully as the replacement. Pardon, I've diverged.
--------------------

Planetwarmer,

Yes, the boat does have hydraulic steering.

About the 2.5 Merc EFI race motor, !*What Is This Motor*!? The HP #s from 2.5L displacement are incredible. I've just recently been seeing it on the web. Could this motor really be usable for high-performance, sport recreational use? Could it possibly be durable and reliable? What's with the "race fuel" I've seen listed in its specs? Truthfully, I wish to run on fuel available at any local gas station and marina, meaning 87 octane regular is preferred; I'd perhaps consider using 93 octane premium, carrying octane booster for marinas which do not sell it, but that's it.

-Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL

fogducker III

03-19-2009, 10:27 AM

If you go for the 2.5L Merc, see if you can find a Bridgeport, a "real" one.........:wink::yes:

BUIZILLA

03-19-2009, 10:58 AM

a 2000 year 225 ProMax weighs 392#.. :pimp:

Greg Guimond

03-24-2009, 07:41 PM

I tend to think that it would be hard to beat a clean late model Promax 225 given the reasonable weight. Next in line would be the 200xs if you could find one, but that motor is 435lbs. When you get to that weight, the small block ETEC makes a nice option all around at 416lbs and with the good old flag graphics.

AndyDiSario

03-25-2009, 05:23 PM

Gentlemen,

I am beginning to see the light as to just how important it is to keep weight at the transom down for this boat, thanks especially to Greg's shared experiences, and others also. Current #1 motor of choice then would be the Promax 225X, perhaps with a manual jack plate to allow some adjustability, without the weight and complexity of the hydraulic unit. I will let these ideas gel.

------------------

A message to Donzi Racer (Tom): I received your phone message and tried calling back a few times without success nor ability to leave a voice message. Also, I'm not certain I have your correct email address. My wife and I were out of town when you called, and during some of the boating events for which you invited us. Thanks anyway. Contact me any time you wish.

Regards,
Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net

JustMercMe

03-26-2009, 03:14 PM

Planetwarmer,

Yes, the boat does have hydraulic steering.

About the 2.5 Merc EFI race motor, !*What Is This Motor*!? The HP #s from 2.5L displacement are incredible. I've just recently been seeing it on the web. Could this motor really be usable for high-performance, sport recreational use? Could it possibly be durable and reliable? What's with the "race fuel" I've seen listed in its specs? Truthfully, I wish to run on fuel available at any local gas station and marina, meaning 87 octane regular is preferred; I'd perhaps consider using 93 octane premium, carrying octane booster for marinas which do not sell it, but that's it.

-Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL

Andy, I would stay away from the 2.5 EFI Race Motor(260, 280, 300) if your looking for reliability. They typically have to be re-rung every 75 hours and the rings are not cheap. The lowest octane fuel recommended is 93 octane with lower compression heads. The Merc Racing 2.5's are prepared to turn close to and sometimes over 10 grand on a tach....I would love to see what one would get a 16 OB to but for the boating your doing I would not reccomend it.

A used ProMax 225 might be something to look into. They are pretty reliable if kept stock. 93 octane is a must though. I reccomend it for any 2-stroke Merc really.

BUIZILLA

03-26-2009, 04:45 PM

how solid is the transom?

AndyDiSario

03-30-2009, 02:44 PM

Tom (Donzi Racer),

Please tell me everything you can about your Donzi 16 powered by 200hp Yamaha. How is it set up? Do you use a jack plate? What's the weight of the Yamaha? What prop do you use? What pointers do you have? Does/did the boat chinewalk at or approaching 60 mph, and if so, how did you address this? Was the handling affected by the Yamaha's weight?

Based on your experiences and had it to do over, would you choose the same setup again?

You can contact me directly and/or post here, keeping others informed as you wish.

Mattyboy,

Tell me more about this 16 O/B with pad bottom you mention. Can this be done to my boat? In other words can the U-shaped keel just at the stern be converted to an 8" pad bottom for more stable high-speed running in calm water, similar to what "Just Say N20" mentions on his Laser? Can if be done with little or no disruption to the Donzi's superb rough-water ride and performance?

Anyone else have suggestions on this matter, or is it too crazy or risky?

JustMercMe,

Yes, I see the 2.5 Merc EFI Race Motor indeed would be over-the-top for my wife and my recreation running of our boat. You are right! I do want something left factory-stock internally and reliable.
(P.S. Nice thumbnail, by the way. )

Buizilla,

I believe the transom to be sound and stock, and will ensure the marine mechanic verifies this. I've heard of using a stainless-steel reinforcement plate for the transom and would be interested in doing so during a repower. Sounds like a great idea, as long as there are no major drawbacks.

------------

By the way, indeed, I am looking into a factory-stock Mercury Promax 225X at present.

Thanks again to all,
Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net

AndyDiSario

04-06-2009, 01:20 PM

Some pics from this past weekend. Included is one of my boat being towed back to the ramp by our pal with his 18 Classic, after we had too much fun and ran out of fuel!
-Andy

BlownCrewCab

04-06-2009, 01:40 PM

Judging by the pic's a big Black Outboard would look good on there. Probably pick up a bunch of speed to boot.

AndyDiSario

04-14-2009, 09:12 AM

An update.

My wife, Fern and I took the Donzi out on Saturday into choppy Intracoastal waters, visiting the ocean also, but only briefly. On Sunday, our Easter plans were canceled due to the host's illness, so my wife, Fern suggested we drive over to Tampa, FL and check out / buy the Mercury Promax 225X for sale there. I jumped at the offer, knowing her help as backup driver and close-eyed buyer would be well appreciated.

I am now the proud owner of a 2002 Promax 225X, which I dropped off yesterday with Steve at http://powerboatservices.com/. The entire motor appears in as-new, perfect condition. After looking it over carefully, Steve proclaimed "It looks like it's never been run."

At present, the Donzi still sits in my garage, awaiting the next step, bringing the boat to Steve's shop within a week.

I've been advised, and have decided to sell the Mercury Sport Master gearcase (ratio 1.87:1) from the 225x Mercury Promax, including its special flushing attachment. I'm aware these should be in demand and have good value. Pics attached. Excellent condition.

I'll be in the market for a standard Torque Master gearcase, and am willing to trade down (with reasonable cash) the Sport Master for a 1.87:1, excellent-condition Torque Master that bolts straight onto the Promax.

Thanks again to all, and especially, Tom and Greg for all the good advice.

Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net

AndyDiSario

04-14-2009, 10:18 AM

Also for sale is a 1990s-vintage 150 HP Johnson V6 Outboard, including controls and hydraulic steering, still mounted and functioning on our Donzi.

This motor powers the Donzi 16 to 48 mph top-speed on the GPS in ideal conditions, turning only 4800 RPM with an aluminum, fair-condition prop (included). I feel a little more could be coaxed out of this motor simply by SS-repropping it, jack-plating it, etc. It is a carburetted 2-stroke running on regular fuel and pre-mixed TCW-3. Pics attached. Note the cowling is not original; the motor is indeed a 150 hp.

Mod. #J150STLACA
Ser. # R7816936
Includes Seloc service manual

----------------

Here is my ad for the Johnson in Craigslist:
http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/1122863716.html

I did a compression test yesterday. It has 110 PSI even in the three starboard cylinders.
It has 100 PSI in two port cylinders, and 95 PSI in the third (bottom) cylinder. The spark plugs all came out looking clean and running healthy (unlike other 2-strokes on which I've worked in the past).

The motor does run strongly, without stalling. Also in comparison, for some reason it runs cleaner, with less smoke than the 1997 Force 4-cylinder on my Stingray bowrider, also pre-mixed at 50:1 TCW-3.

I'm assuming this motor has some useful life left before a re-ring would one day be worthwhile.
Opinions?

-Andy

Just Say N20

04-14-2009, 10:35 AM

Fun times ahead.

I'm curious as to why you decided to swap lower units. I was thinking that one of your reasons for purchasing more horsepower was to gain a higher top end speed.

Granted, I'm not sure you will be attaining speeds that will allow you to realize big benefits from this lower unit, but I also don't know that it hurts. Is there a down side to the performance of this lower unit, or lack of prop selection?

The engine does look super clean, as does the Johnrude 150 you are selling.

AndyDiSario

04-14-2009, 11:11 AM

Just Say N20,

I was advised by Greg and Tom who own and have much experience making this little model go fast. (I sure hope they don't mind my mentioning their names directly.) There have been other people making good points also.

The Donzi 16 Classic with its 24-degrees of deadrise and U-shaped keel at the transom is no racing bass boat. It has no flat-pad at the stern. The Sport Master lower unit has a low-water pickup and is a great candidate for a jack plate and running the OB high with the prop in surface-piercing mode. I'm told the Sport Master's real advantages come into play in this mode, at around 80 mph.

However, best as I can understand at present (and am told), the Donzi 16 Classic is not well suited to running 80 mph as can be done with a bass boat in calm water. It can be a real handful with that kind of speed! Truthfully, Fern and I do enjoy a little flat water occasionally, but most of our boating life is spent in the Intracoastal, Atlantic Ocean, Biscayne Bay and the Keys, for example, where choppy water and slower speeds are common-place.

At slower speeds with the lower unit submerged and cavitation prevented, say 70 mph and below, I'm told the Sport Master simply creates more drag, and the Torque Master will work fine.

Remember this Promax came off a 20' Bullet Bass boat owned by a senior citizen, Al who has stepped way down to a John boat so he can still launch and fish FL's inland water's without his son, Wayne's assistance. As I understand it, with Wayne driving, the Bullet was claimed to reach 90 mph.

I was willing to try the Sport Master on the Promax myself first, then decide, because nothing beats experience. However, talking with Steve yesterday, we discussed the "fat" prop shaft of the Sport Master meaning I'd be investing in a hub and prop that cannot be reused with a Torque Master. Thus, I assume I'm better off investing in as close to the desired end result as possible.

Your opinion?

Still open to advice.
Andy

Just Say N20

04-14-2009, 11:42 AM

I love it when someone makes an INFORMED decision.

I agree with what you have been told, and kind of hinted at some of those things in my previous post. I wasn't trying to play any kind of devil's advocate, I wondered how you came to that conclusion. You are more realistic than I am.

Without a pad bottom, you will not reach the speeds where you can benefit much from the original lower unit. I don't know how it would create more drag at below 70 mph speeds, but I have only personal theories on it, rather than actual experience. If someone with experience says this, I'm cool with that, if it is someone I trust (while I have never personally met BigGrizz, I would accept his advice on prop selection without question. He has huge personal experience, and from all indications is very trustworthy.).

The different diameter prop shafts also are a consideration.

I am excited to hear about the changes you get after installing the new engine. While top speed is usually the number that people want to know about a boat, unless you are a racer, that usually isn't the most important number. You spend very little time at WOT as a percentage of time running the boat. Sure, it's a blast, and a big number is impressive, but to me cruising speed is more important. Last summer I was out on a friends Classic 22, and his boat cruised at 47 mph @ 3,000 rpms. That was jaw-dropping impressive to me. 47 mph is a pretty good clip for most water conditions, and it was effortless at 3,000 rpms. All day long, with minimal effort. The new engine should raise your "effortless" cruising speed nicely.

Now, having said all that, has anyone suggested a potential new top speed?

I would guess 55 - 57 GPS mph when all the set up and prop selection is done. I would also think you would be able to cruise nicely in the mid-40s without beating on the engine. And, from my personal experience, outboards take running hard all the time a LOT better than V8s do. I have run all my outboards at 90% for long periods of time without even thinking about it, without any trouble at all. I can't say the same for long term 90% running with a V8.

Enjoy the journey!
Bill

Donzi Racer

04-14-2009, 12:04 PM

Some pics from this past weekend. Included is one of my boat being towed back to the ramp by our pal with his 18 Classic, after we had too much fun and ran out of fuel!
-Andy

BOY that is a good looking Boat! Will be soooooo much better with a black motor hanging off the back. With the right prop and a gal dern power jack plate, I say well over 60 mph.

Guys, I have no idea how the sportmaster would work with a power jack plate, but wouldn't it make since that before trading out or buying & selling lower units, would a jack plate get that Sportmaster prop down in the water lower when needed for a non cavitating ride? Then when you really want to pour the coals to it, it is there? I keep thinking about what a ss drive accomplishes on the 18 foot Donzis with alpha drives and 5 to 7 mph is a shame to throw away if it would work out the same on the Pro-Max. As we all know 5 to 7 mph can cost a small sometime huge fortune to accomplish. I have seen the ss on a 18 LE in super rough conditions and it simply did great. I am not sure we are talking apples to apples with the ss and the sportmaster drives but they sound similar. Also with the power transom jack plate seems like it would give you more access to make it do what you needed in any water conditions. If I am off base here with my thinking let me know. We also have a little 16 OB & thinking about going with a jack plate so any advise would be appreciated. As usual, my 2c. Tom

BlownCrewCab

04-14-2009, 12:48 PM

I think on a 60 mph (standard X Dim) boat the standard gear case is faster, The Sport Cases have more Square Inches of metal surface to drag through the water. When you really start Honkin and water pressure increases greatly then the sport Cases start to shine because of their shape. But for a regular application it's un-needed/wanted.

HIGH LIFE

04-15-2009, 11:56 AM

Hi Andy, Congradulations on new motor !!! Your boat should definetly pick up some MPH, with the right prop of course. I regards to the lower unit-- the Torque Master is designed for boats with heavy loads. The Sport Master features less frontal area which reduces drag and provides increased waterflow according to Mercury o/b brochure. Are the prop & driveshafts stainless steel or hardened steel... Check out Scream & Fly--Tech Talk regarding problems w/ lower units like these. Michael "HIGH LIFE"

AndyDiSario

04-15-2009, 02:48 PM

Donzi Racer (to Tom, in Post #104),

Q1: What is the Alpha SS drive on an 18' Donzi? Is that a stainless steel prop on an 18 I/O lower unit? Please pardon I'm still new to Donzi ownership.

About the power transom jack plate on the 16 Classic outboard, Greg shared wisdom with me to be *very* careful about weight on the transom. As you've noticed with the Black Max years ago, too much weight can seriously harm the Classic 16's desirable characteristics. You mentioned problems with handling, steering, safety, even water skiing disadvantages.

Q2: Do you know how much the Black Max weighed? Any other pointers as to why the handling, usability and fuel economy were so adversely affected on the 16 Classic?

I'm told a jack plate significantly alters handling and ride characteristics on our Donzi 16 Classics. Some of this is intuitive: trim leverage, weight distribution, gearcase drag and cooling-water flow with the motor raised, etc. I'm still on the fence as to whether, or when to eventually try one, however I do know it is best to minimize motor offset and weight. This means at best, a lighter, simpler manual jack plate would probably be the better choice. At least a manual unit retains capability to dial into (bolt up or down to) a "sweet" spot for the day or weekend's conditions.

With that thought in mind, if it does turn out a jack plate seems worth trying, I'm currently thinking the lightest unit could be the best starting point, if not at present, eventually. Following are specs on competing jack plate products. All are manual products, except the CMC Auto plate listed here for comparison.

CMC manual - 39 lbs shipping weight, 5.5" offset.
CMC Auto - 55 lbs total, about 50 lbs on the transom, 5.5" offset.
Bob's Machine Shop - Std MJ5, for up to 200 hp - 19 lbs, 5" offset.
Bob's Machine Shop - Heavy duty MJ5H, up to 300 hp - 27 lbs, 5" offset.
Rite-Hite - up to 300 hp, shipping weight 34.5 lbs.
TH Marine - JP-6HP, approx. 40 lbs, 6" offset.

So, at present, the BMS unit looks to be the least extreme, with the MJ5H being the hypothetical best choice for my boat. Perhaps the MJ5 could be a good choice for your 200 Yamaha (?).

Best regards,
Andy

AndyDiSario

04-26-2009, 10:13 PM

I feel it's probably time for this to come out -- why I've joined the club and camaraderie of Donzi ownership, which I'm truly enjoying so far. My responses here are prompted by statements from Tom, quoted here. (Thanks, Tom).

-------------

>"Most people use a boat for 1 or 2 purposes and I have talked to you enough that you will use it 4,5 or more different ways depending where you are and who is with you. "

Yes. Maybe more. I look at the Donzi as a replacement for our Yamaha Waverunner FX160HO Cruiser (and its 7 predecessors), which is easy to tow, launch, use, a ton a fun, inexpensive to operate, a general barrel-of-monkeys on the water, except... without the severe restrictions on PWC, and with more capability as a pleasant side-effect, also.

You see, over the last 19 years, my wife, my friends and I have taken PWC all over FL, from Key West, to most of the Keys, to virtually every waterway in So. FL maybe 1000 times, to Biscayne Bay, boated through St. Lucie Canal and the locks to Lake Okeechobee multiple times, (towed to) the Gulf annually, most of the east coast, to my sister's house in St. Augustine, and much more. Ocean, Intracoastal, inland lakes and canals, you name it. I want the Donzi to take the place of PWC now, though Fern will need more convincing.

Now we have pals who've moved to North Carolina -- our old Waverunning pals Aaron and Missy, who ride two Waverunners and motorcycles too. PWC are not as restricted in North Carolina. We rode with them on their PWC in their local Carolina lakes -- best lakes I've ever ridden. Still nothing like the clear, clean, naturally-warm sub-tropical salt-waters of So. FL, but very nice. Maybe one day, we'll tow the Donzi there too (as well as take a motorcycle or two on another trip, to ride the Blue Ridge Parkway -- a dream of mine for 30 years now).

>"With the money you are spending, ..."
It's cheaper than buying a Senator. Far cheaper. And legal. You see, I've given up fighting bans, discrimination and prohibitions of PWC. Leading Grassroots campaigns, working with Riva Motorsports to try to fight the bans, writing and calling park officials to explain common-sense, simply fair logic as a tax payer (high-paying at the time too, I might add), and more .. does not work.

It's so bad here, you cannot ride your PWC through the Intracoastal to get from So. Miami to the Keys, simply because it passes through Biscayne National Park. The intracoastal! Set up and reserved by the government. That I feel would be shot down in court but who wants to go through all that expense and hassle? Niether my health, wallet nor marriage can afford that.

I tried a few other boats before the Donzi in an attempt to replace PWC with a small, fun power-boat running free of restrictions. It is the reason we own our 18-foot Stingray bowrider ("A mini-van on the water" I affectionately call it.) I actually bought a sport-boat (a Fantasy F13 powered by an outboard) sight-unseen in desperation, shipping it here from CA. Once we realized what a mistake it was, we sold it without ever taking it out. We tried the CraigCat too -- this one for free -- two-abreast bucket seats on a flat-hulled catamaran powered by an outboard, not a PWC, legal everywhere: http://www.craigcat.com/ (http://www.craigcat.com/) Both turned out to be toys.

In the past, I've looked at jet-boats, but two facts are discouraging: 1. they too are banned in Everglades National Park (I wish to be banned nowhere), and 2. they also turn out as toys. Several buddies have owned less-expensive smaller models than these; doesn't matter -- all discovered many pitfalls:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/boat/products/modeloverview/ls/2008/model_overview.aspx (http://www.yamaha-motor.com/boat/products/modeloverview/ls/2008/model_overview.aspx)

I've thought of temporarilly disabling my PWC motor and bolting on my Minn-Kota electric trolling motor, taking the PWC to whatever FL requires for certification and getting the boat reclassified as an open-motorboat. Legal requirements for a PWC: inboard, jet-driven, ride-on not in. Temporarilly convert it to an outboard and FL would have no choice but to reclassify it. Add nav lights from West Marine too, making it legal to return after sunset too when necessary. All that would draw cops by the scores in the areas we wish to ride. I'd have to carry paperwork to prove it's no longer a PWC. One problem is -- no one else would want to play in this arena -- not even my own wife, due to the Marine Patrol encounters, and friends on other PWC would remain banned anyway.

Another option, I found a PWC advertised in E-Bay that uses an outboard motor, with a wall behind its tandem-bench seat and an empty outboard well, awaiting repower! "Check your local laws. In most areas, this is not classified as a PWC" its ad read. Obviously the seller knew what I was thinking.

It doesn't matter than I carry a Coast-Guard recognized safe boater course card, it doesn't matter that I follow all laws (OK, am careful not to be caught stepping outside any), that our Personal WaterCraft is an ultra-quiet, clean-burning 4-stroke (sounds like an electric motor in the water). In FL, when you're banned, you're banned. Period. It got so bad, we were cursed and thrown out of a Keys marina by the dock-master, while quietly idling in on our 4-stroke Waverunner and politely asking if Fern could use the rest room. Apparently their "No Jet-Skis" rule somehow applies to other brands too. (A Yamaha Waverunner is legally not a "Jet-ski", which is a copyrighted, Kawasaki brand name. Don't get me started.)

I can walk into Riva Motorsports in Pompano these days and buy a factory-stock, warrantied PWC that goes 68 mph (on radar or GPS in magazine tests). My buddy who runs their export business tells me there are off-the-shelf Riva Performance kits to modify a current Waverunner to achieve 80 mph, and their own prototype has reached 85. This is what I've wanted all along -- the V-Max of PWC. (Yamaha V-Max is my power-cruiser motorcycle.) Back in the day (in the 1990s, before the most-severe bans), you'd have to tie me down in order to prevemt me from owning the fastest, most-reliable, most-usable PWC model available (most likely a Yamaha Waverunner):
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/waverunner/products/modelspecs/581/0/specs.aspx (http://www.yamaha-motor.com/waverunner/products/modelspecs/581/0/specs.aspx)

Now, the Donzi is my new love.

I look at PWC as 3rd-class citizens at best. Jet-boats as 2nd class. Open motorboats (prop-boats) such as our Stingray or Donzi are 1st-class. Now, the Donzi has taught me something else. There exists an upper subset of this 1st class, reserved for classic, adored boats for which people have affection, go out of their way to make room for you at the ramp, ask admiring questions about, etc. The Donzi is that way! Much like the 1965 Corvette Sting Ray convertible I restored and drove daily from 1995 through 2005 (pics attached). It brings out the enthusiasm in people -- not just us motorheads, but some common folks you'd never expect. That car made ordinary guys such as myself feel like a celebrity; so far, I've noticed the Donzi Classic is blessed with some of this charisma also.

I cannot imagine what a restored wooden Chris Craft could be like. (Don't want to either, due to maintenance.)

Instead of "! Get the F**K out of here with your damned Jet-Ski!", we get "Nice boat! What year is that?" Yet, we're the same people. Amazing.

Andy

Just Say N20

04-27-2009, 06:17 AM

A remarkable history, with some unfortunate insights into the life of a PWC owner. I had no idea.

But just as interesting to hear your observations on the whole Donzi ownership experience!

Welcome to the club!

(Very nice Vette, too.)

AndyDiSario

04-27-2009, 07:15 AM

Thanks, Just Say N20,

In 19 years of riding PWC as our #1 vechicle sport, one learns many hard knocks. I could tell you many stories about the disasters we've witnessed first-hand with renters, borrowers and new-owners alike. Experienced owners do not do this stuff: major accidents we could not prevent (merely staying far away from the operators as a last resort), cracked hulls, craft floating merely due to floatation foam -- worse yet, getting emergency medical assistance for dislocated shoulders, broken arms, bruised renters floating due to lifevests. And more.

As with other forms of boating, the learning curve is steep, yet these high-performance water-craft look like such fun, unintimidating toys to adults and even children alike! They're a double-edged sword that way. I believe this is the root cause of many of the accidents, the mistakes, and the general-public's knee-jerk reaction to simply ban all PWC. No one takes unnecessary risks to life and craft abusing Donzis as is too-often done daily with PWC.

To me, a PWC is a motorcycle on the water. Yet, no novice even thinks to ask to borrow my 140- (flywheel-)HP, 150 mph motorcycle to do circles around tractor-trailers on I-95. Yet, leave a PWC sitting beached near the ramp with tether carelessly dangling on its lifevest while you park your tow vehicle, come back and find some casual "borrower" joy riding it running circles around open-motorboats in the lake! Yes, it's happened to buddies -- not every day, but it does happen.

I could write an extensive article about these true incidents, no kidding.

Anyway, about 7 years ago, I began to give up, broke down and bought a clean, used, 18' Stingray bowrider powered by a very-basic, 120 HP Force outboard. What a difference, I discovered! In hunting for the boat, I experienced something unusual; I said to my long-time experienced power-boat buddy, Stuart, in my 30+ years of buying and selling vehicles (cars, motorcycles and PWC), I'd never encounterd such a helpful gentleman who sold me the craft (sight-unseen, fron Connecticut to FL). I was accustomed to the more cut-throat world of auto and motorcycle transactions and repairs. "Welcome to boating," was Stu's response.

Now I see the same sort of gentlemen (and ladies) exist with Donzis too. Sure, some of us inevitably have a touch of the competitive, performance-ego thing going (myself included -- heh a Donzi is a high-performance craft, a Stingray is not). Yet, there is good-natured advice and camaraderie around every corner.

Thanks guys (and gals). Sincerely,
Andy

P.S. I'll include a few more photos of my ex-Corvette Sting Ray I'd restored, starting mostly from a mechanical nightmare. It'd been my dream car since playing with Matchbox toys as a boy in the early-1960s.
I hope not to tick anyone off placing car photos in a boating forum, but to me, a classic Corvette shares the same theme as a Donzi Classic.

BigGrizzly

04-27-2009, 08:40 AM

As much as I do not like some PWC, its the rider that causes the trouble, and rightfully so. I have almost been hit several times by DUMB PWC riders mboth grownups and kids. PWCs coming out of a cove WFO and not looking. Last summer I saw a guy so drunk he kept falling off and raising havoc around the lake I went over to help and he yelled "YOU DON"T OWN THIS LAKE", I turned around and said drown A... Hole and left. Andy the other problem is you quit fighting for what you believed in, so you are doomed to the bureaucracy. One of the reasons motorcycles are still here is because of companies like Honda Yamaha and others along with the AMA. Thust me on this if these people stopped the lobby, you will not be riding the cycle either. Sorry but that is the way it really is.

AndyDiSario

04-27-2009, 10:16 AM

BigGrizzly,

>As much as I do not like some PWC, its the rider that causes the trouble, and rightfully so

You are correct. My 83-year-old mother-in-law once commented about how dangerous PWC are, according to Ft. Laud. newspapers she reads. "Mom, it's the driver, not the craft causing the danger. The craft themselves, operated properly are quite safe, as compared to other powersports and most sports activities in general. For example, would you rather fall down onto the street, be tackled onto a hard field, or fall over into the water?" I respond. "Well, of course!" she tells me in no uncertain terms. She tells it like it is, and I got the impression I practically insulted her common sense. She knows zip about boating, yet with age, comes wisdom. I wish the remainder of the general population understood this wisdom.

>Last summer I saw a guy so drunk he kept falling off and raising havoc around the lake I went over to help and he yelled "YOU DON"T OWN THIS LAKE", I turned around and said drown A... Hole and left.

When I see this sort of thing, I cringe, my blood-pressure involuntarilly rises (I suffer severe hypertension), I do everything in my power to prevent disaster, hurting someone and thus ruining our sport (most often in vain and frustration).

I once gathered a few PWC riders to rescue a marine patrol, pulling him out from a soft-bottom ungrounding outside the ramp channel. No big deal, but Marine patrols, dressed in their uniforms and carrying guns do not get in shallow water to pull boats free. Afterwards, I asked him a favor. "Can you please stop PWC operators from riding fast near swimmers along the beach? They will not listen to me." This is my pet peeve. "They're supposed to idle 300 feet off shore," was his response. "You know that and I know that, but they do not, nor do they listen to me. Can you please enforce this?" I pleaded.

Outside the life-guarded beach swim-areas, all boats (even amazingly, PWC, at least until they are banned there next) are permitted to idle right up to the beach -- a huge priviledge in most of Palm Beach County, FL. (Note: this does not apply to the actual city of Boca Raton, though.) However, I've seen PWC operators abuse this priviledge by showing off, riding backwards (crashing into and damaging a buddy's anchored, new PWC once), even slaloming around swimmers in the water very close to shore! "Please don't do that!" I beg. "We have the entire ocean to go out with unlimited space out there alone to cut loose." The response: laughter, "They look like coconuts floating in the water."

They're talking about human heads!! Up goes my Blood Pressure.

I fought, struggled and complained for over 10 years. I remain behind the PWC Manufacturers Association and the AMA of course, too. With motorcycles, there remains more fight left in me, however it is not needed, as motorcycles have now become mainstream, trendy and popular, especially so with middle-aged guys like myself! (I've been riding for over 30 years, when nearly all motorcyclists were looked at as outlaws and Fern and I did deal with some discrimination when we were young, but not anymore. Now, wer're trendy! ;-)

However when it comes to PWC in So, FL, sadly ... A Wise Man Knows When to Admit Defeat. In 02/1999 the worst of the bans came as a devastating surprise when we were banned from Biscayne National Park, our favorite local ride to the Keys. Fern, my buddies and I used to lead groups of 20 - 30 riders down there on weekends, to tour Bayside, So. Miami, Stiltsville, Boca Chita, Elliott Key, Sands Key. We'd launch into the Intracoastal in So. Broward or No. Miami, then ride the water down to the Keys. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. The Keys are sub-tropical boaters' paradise. "Key Biscayne National Park is within sight of Miami skyline, yet world's away." - http://www.nps.gov/bisc

There are more-wonderful places in the Keys still, but none other where you can tow there and then back home in the evening after a long day on the water, then sleep restfully in your own bed at night; no resort stay required. (Our pals lived in southern Palm Beach and Northern Broward counties.)

I nearly died, mostly from over-reacting to work-related stress 4.5 years ago. I'm retired now; I've faught my fight for PWC and lost. There is no fight left in me for PWC.

I may be putting too much pressure on this transition and it may be premature to predict, but I'm hoping upon hope the Donzi is our renaissance to a whole new way of small, sport power-boating. Our little 18' Stingray bowrider is a wonderful boat on its own, don't get me wrong. It has opened many new horizons for Fern and me to take along several friends or family and go long distances as 1st class citizens, on the water as a group in relative comfort for an entire day of water-adventure. It is the mini-van of the water, with three rows of seating, a center back-to-back double-bucket seat folding out to a lounge which I've slept on under the stars, and more. With its shallow 19-degree semi-Vee hull that flattens out around mid-ship, it does handle calm ocean days well, however most of the time I am backing off the throttle for an easy ride. It's no slouch, but indeed, it's no sport-boat.

Attached is a 2004 Islamorada(Keys) picture of yours-truly, PWC-experienced, but open-motorboat novice and his better half when I was just attempting to learn to dock the Stingray. Fortuntately there were no other boats to maneuver around 'cause I was doing a goofy job of it at best. :-)

Whereas I see the Waverunner as a motorcycle on the water (right on down to its handlebars and tandem seating), the Stingray as a mini-van, I see the Donzi as a Corvette.

Andy
561-479-0578
Boca Raton, FL

BigGrizzly

04-27-2009, 06:40 PM

I am sorry about the wise man and defeat. I have a problem it. This is principle. That is what this countru was built on now we have get it back.

AndyDiSario

04-27-2009, 09:02 PM

BigGrizzly,

I agree in principle, and fought long and hard to achieve what God has given me the opportunity to accomplish in life. Did so for 45 years, however when the stress of overachieving and struggling without restraint for success throughout life, in my career, and for what I know is right so-very-nearly killed me, I had no choice but to back off. Spend 2 months in a hospital mostly unconscious and near death due in no small part to a stress-related illness, undergo multiple brain surgeries, then struggle for over a year trying to find some recovery and piece together a sample of what was one's old hard-charging self; one has to learn to back off and choose one's battles wisely.

Because of the brain surgeries and some loss of equilibrium, when the docs learned from my wife of my lifestyle, they forbid three things:
1. Mr stick-your-thumbs-in-it and try-to-fix-evey broken thing in site: No more working on roofs. (I used to repair my own roof after most every FL windstorm, even helped a buddy for a day or so reroof his house.)
2. Love of powerboating and sports cars -- These are OK, but never can I scuba dive. The pressures would ruin the brain surgery coils.
3. 30 years of motorcycling -- No more motorcycling.

It took about a year, but my response was the doc is not the police and he cannot take away my license, thus he cannot tell me what to do; two out of three isn't bad. I put on my Snell-rated full-face Shoei helmet and rode our boring, silly bicycle around our 2-mile outside block to prove I could still do it. Hated it, with cars whizzing by, no horn, no acceleration, no power, not even mirrors. (Heh, I'm a motorhead, not a bicycle-head.) Then, I swung a leg over my Yamaha V-Max and cautiously relearned to ride my motorcycle. I also ride a Honda Valkyrie trike these days (joined by my wife who to date will no longer ride long-distances touring on two wheels as we did back in the day).

Let's imagine something for a moment. I often wonder what would happen if motorcycles were not invented and developed before or about the same time as automobiles over a century ago? What if motorcycles somehow never existed until today? Do you think in today's litigious times, any company would have the chutzpah to produce, market and warranty such dangerous, inherently-unstable vehicles? Of course not! Lawyers would have a field day. It's only because of the long, continuous storied history of motorcycling in this country that our beloved motorbikes indeed exist today.

I've truly digressed stepping over into motorcycling (you mentioned the AMA, right?), but I can think of no other sport where the motor is more the very-essence, the very persona of the machine. In fact, it is its first name.

-Andy

Donzi Racer

04-27-2009, 11:40 PM

Well Andy & Randy, I do believe we have found someone that writes longer stories than DONZI RACER! I did not think that was possible. Well Andy, I am ready for a ride when you get the Baby back. Tom

PS- I am sorry for the short reply but I am overwelmed. ahhahahahaah T

BigGrizzly

04-28-2009, 08:19 AM

Andy I am with you on this. I worked for Honda corporation for 24 years and in dealers 20 years before that and I too can no longer ride and race either. I keep the 1000 Hurricane and my old CR750 in the garage so I can remember and deram of yesteryear. We still have our 16 Donzi we got in 1966 and the Corsican and Criterion. I figured I have another 8 years to really enjoy them. So it is not that you gave up but rather it was the end of that ERA and time for someone else to take over.

AndyDiSario

04-28-2009, 09:10 AM

Tom,

>I do believe we have found someone that writes longer stories

Oops. Yes, yours-truly can get wordy that way.

"Talk is Cheap. Good Handling costs $29.95." Anyone else remember that popular ad in Road & Track for anti-roll bars in the 1970s?

>Well Andy, I am ready for a ride when you get the Baby back. Tom

You got it, bud. I think it's cool you're a fellow Floridian, making it much easier to meet one day; you can drive my boat too, and I'm sure I'll learn more from you about Donzi, based on your experience. Remember, I'm still new to this -- ownership of a Donzi, and open motorboats (prop-boats) in general.

----------------

An update to my earlier post, #99 on 4/14: I've decided to at least try the Sportmaster gearcase, maybe one day taking advantage of it using the smallest, lightest jack plate suitable for my boat. Perhaps I'll use it to advantage next winter to run the Everglades again. I've learned the many 'Glades canals in Broward have no speed limits; in contrast, Loxahatchee here in Palm Beach is beautiful, yet posts a 35 mph limit and the canal does hide submerged, shallow stumps. Maybe that Sportmaster could come in handy next winter! :-)

You see, my buddy, Stuart owns an 18' Donzi Classic with 350 I/O. Earlier this month, he, my wife and I visited Loxahatchee and had lots of fun. Because the entrance ranger told me their law enforcement has been "pared to the bone, with patrol resources spent looking mostly for poachers," I told him the only thing I poach is eggs for breakfast. The ranger laughed, then away we went!

(See post #97, from 04/06.)

Stuart's Donzi is quite faster than mine on top end (with the Johnson, at least). We had lots of fun, idling by fishermen, then, ahem.... being sure not to poach anything! ;-) With a buddy nearby, I took unnecessary fuel range risks (still learning to fill the tank fully and trust the gauge), and needed a tow on the way back to the ramp. WOT sure burns more fuel than casual cruising! No kidding, huh?

On the return tow, along comes a Wildlife Officer who received several calls and was searching for two red boats racing. Imagine that! Many fishermen, seeing the Donzis encouraged us to "hit it" after we respectfully idled by, but some folks (maybe folks fishing along the shoreline?) made the calls. We were detained and both asked to produce necessary items -- vests, fire extinguishers, registration, you name it. FL has a *very* strict marine patrol. Then, having not caught us red-handed, the officer had no choice but to let us go, though he did snicker, asking if I ran out of fuel from all that racing?

Next visit there, I took along another motorhead buddy, a serious sports-car buff, Phil who is new to boating. The entrance ranger recognized my boat immediately and warned of calls about racing which came in last time. It was only my 2nd visit there in the Donzi, yet I joked to Phil "You see that about these 'Damned Donzis'? Their reputation precedes us already!"

Imagine that, too.

Anyway, time will tell if I'll indeed want to keep the Sportmaster.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-01-2009, 02:12 PM

I found pictures of potential PWC replacements -- small sport-boats running without FL restriction, that could come close to PWC fun for us. The pretty Paradise F13 is someone else's, a magnificent restoration which is set up (and powered!) the way I had in mind for my own F13 last year; mine turned out to need far more restoration than I'd anticipated, having been purchased and shipped in desperation sight-unseen from CA. To be honest, Fern was floored by the sorry condition in which it turned out, and she was right. I'd taken on a bigger project before (see 1965 Corvette posts -- ohh boy what a task) and I may have been up to the chore to recondition it, however I just was not comfortable inside the boat, feeling cramped. No love, no keep.

Next, the pic of the PWC that's not legally defined as a PWC, ready to accept outboard power, for sale very-reasonably on E-Bay at the time. It looked to be another potential candidate, definitely most-similar to what we are accustomed to with ordinary PWC, right on down to tandem bench seating and individual footwells.

Then, we tried the CraigCat, yet another attempt in vain for us: http://www.craigcat.com/ At least trying this was a learning experience for Fern and me, and cost us nothing!

Now, I'm very glad (thrilled, actually) I own the Donzi Sweet 16 Classic with outboard, instead. It's in a class of its own. Our Donzi has been in the pro's garage for a about a week now undergoing repower, a task bigger than I wished to take on myself. Back in 1990 and 1991, when my Sea-Doo broke yet again (pretty much weekly) and I turned it over for yet another warranted or extended-warranted repair (mostly in vain, but at least not very costly), it was a temporary relief to have the thing out from under my skin. Yes, I missed weekends without trying to enjoy the sport (towed home broken down nearly every time), but I did not miss the craft itself.

With the Donzi, I have to admit, I miss seeing the thing, secured in my garage, awaiting yet another sunny day; it's kinda like I feel when a favorite relative or friend leaves our house, after staying here for vacation. It has gotten under my skin already.

Our buddies Stuart and in turn, his nephew, Mark also own Donzi Classics. They were resposible for introducing me to them. Mark told me he never understood why I'd tried other sport boats to upgrade from a PWC, instead of going straight for a Donzi. The honest answer is I've transformed to an outboard guy now, strongly preferring their simplicity and service access for my own open-motorboat, and I had no idea until learning from Stuart last summer, years ago a Classic was indeed built with an OB.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-04-2009, 10:32 AM

BigGrizzly,

Good luck enjoying the fun vehicles you still can, Donzi included. I wish you well. Good quote, by the way!

---------------------------------

About our Waverunner, after 19+ years and some 2000 hours of riding PWC, it took the 16 Classic to finally convert me. For Fern and me it is ...

The end of an era.

The start of a new one!

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/1185214599.html

After several failed attempts at replacement on my part, thanks to our pals, Stuart and his nephew, Mark for helping me eventually see the light.

I'll always remember this, last summer: Andy, plucked out of the Stingray (turned over to Fern to take over as captain, with guests aboard) and now sitting in the stern for a ride in Mark's 16 Classic, just repowered with a 350, running open exhaust also. "What a cool little boat! What a great ride! What a huge dose of internal combustion! If only they made this with an outboard."
Stuart, "They did."
Andy, "You're sh*tting me!"

-Andy

HIGH LIFE

05-10-2009, 06:28 PM

Andy, How is the motor swap coming along ? "HIGH LIFE"

fast fun 2

05-10-2009, 08:07 PM

that is Pizazz ( sp) it is a bench seat hornet owned by the Friehoffer's ( of friehoffer's bakery) from lake george
Yep. Hasnt seen water in 2 years. :garfield: One of the best rigged Donzis out there, was went through by Kieth Hazel in the 80s :cool!:

AndyDiSario

05-10-2009, 10:42 PM

High Life,

Thanks for the congrats (4/15), by the way; I still need to look further into Scream and Fly. Threre's a lot of great stuff out there on the web concerning small O/B-powered boats!

The motor swap is coming along, albeit slowly. Last I spoke with the marine mechanic, Steve on Friday, 5/8, we were waiting for hydraulic steering components to arrive. Two of the Faria gauges I'd ordered arrived, two more are still in transit.

The Donzi's Johnson 150 sold. Found a buyer for the outboard stand also, but turned him down, as Steve himself can use it.

Meantime, I've kept busy working on our other boats (repairs on the Stingray to use it, clean up on the Waverunner to sell it) and working on our new garage. Took out each of the Stingray and a motorcycle on different days too. Got to dyno-test the V-Max, which kept me happy yesterday! Trying to stay busy otherwise and not get too anxious about the Donzi, which I miss just seeing in the garage!

Still looking for a serious Waverunner buyer, though I have two serious offers on its trailer (which must wait to see first if it is needed), and someone else needs its stand.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-20-2009, 05:20 PM

Gentlemen,

I'd been unable to get ahold of the marine mechanic, Steve for a few days, as he's been out mostly on service calls. Today, I took a motorcycle-ride down to his shop in Ft. Lauderdale -- a good idea.

All four of my new Faria gauges have arrived, which I bought best-price and best-availability from the web. A water-pressure gauge is included. These will complement the four already installed.

Steve eventually returned to the shop, so he and I drew out the best placement and relocation of the gauges on the dash. It should be beautiful, at least to my eye! I can imagine how most women must feel about viewing and displaying jewelry, because round, black-on-white-face analog gauges with SS bezels have always looked so appealing to me, and best of all, they serve far more purpose than mere decoration; they accurately monitor critical functions of high-performance internal combustion vehicles!
http://www.faria-instruments.com/marine/index.php

In my typical form-follows-function opinion, diamond rings should be cheap frivolty, but gauges such as these should cost a fortune! (I'm certainly glad they do not.)

Also, the new hydraulic-steering components have arrived, however, I am disappointed very-little actual progress has been made further on my boat, as Steve and his workers have been busy with bigger, bread-and-butter projects. Good to see the economy is not crippling his business, however, I did ask for a priority increase! In a way now, I somewhat regret having not attempted to tackle the repower myself, however because I am bolting on max. usable HP onto the boat, I really don't want any learning-curve mistakes.

Now, onto a question I'd like to once again bounce off you guys (and gals, if that applies), visited before by me. Sorry, but my lack of experience and indecision truly shows on the matter of jack plates.

I had agreed to try the Mercury bolted right onto the transom as the safest, most-secure mount to begin, as advised by Steve. After all, he is concerned about safety and security for his customer above all else; I don't blame him, and he does not know me all that well, truthfully.

Once I got some more seat time with this platform (boat and setup), it was my intention to borrow a hoist, ask a buddy for a hand and install a manual jack plate myself. Certainly, I can see myself doing this before attempting to run smooth Everglades water again next winter. You see, I bent a skeg and chewed up the aluminum prop on the Johson in Loxahatchee Everglades in Palm Beach, have since learned there are a few submerged stumps, and certainly do not want to do this again to the Promax.

Now, with all this waiting, I'm thinking more and more about the lightest, least-aggressive manual jackplate again, mentioned last time, from Bobs Machine Shop in Tampa. You see, this past weekend I was talkiing with another motor-buddy who previously ran a high-speed bass boat using the BMS jackplate. He too wondered why I'm not using it.
http://www.bobsmachine.com/

I'm just itching for the opportunity to raise and lower the motor using only a wrench -- low for salt-water ocean running, higher for anywhere it could get shallow (and for flat-water speed trials, of course). I have zero experience ever on a boat doing this. Both the Everglades and Keys can get shallow. With the Sportmaster and the pressure gauge, I should have opportunity to plan ahead, tinker and all the while monitor water pressure.

Greg, Tom (Donzi Racer), High Life, Buizilla, JustMercMe, and more:
Do you think the boat can handle the BMS MJ5H, 5" offset, weighing 27 pounds? Am I heading for trouble?

Mercury lists the Promax as weighing 375 pounds. Do you think it foolish of me to consider another 27 to this delightful platform, without at least trying it bolted straight to transom first?

-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-20-2009, 07:01 PM

I would like to buy a copy of this book, reasonably priced. Anyone know of a reprint, paperback or otherwise-inexpensive copy for sale?
-Andy

Don Aronow: The King of Thunderboat Row

by Michael Aronow (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Michael%20Aronow)

http://www.amazon.com/Don-Aronow-King-Thunderboat-Row/dp/0945903227/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242863393&sr=8-1

AndyDiSario

05-21-2009, 10:48 AM

I thought I'd post my Happy Photo, in case you might wonder what my sorry mug looks like! The pretty brunette is my wife, Fern. The blonde is our friend, Millie. Fern and I were privileged to be invited aboard the boat. The location is Lake Boca, here in Palm Beach. The guy with the sh*t-eatin' grin on his face is, well, you guessed it.

-Andy

Just Say N20

05-21-2009, 11:15 AM

Happy looking group.

Did someone steal the flat panel off the radar arch?

AndyDiSario

05-21-2009, 11:32 AM

Sorry, couldn't tell you. Not really sure what type of "flat panel" you refer to -- TV, radar readout, or ?? This boat impresses me as a "yacht", and as you recall I'm an old car-, motorcycle- and PWC-guy.
-Andy

Donzi Racer

05-21-2009, 01:03 PM

Andy, you are killin me. I, like most men, am a control NUT! I want as much control of the performance of my boat as I can get. With the money you are spending on the rig, the motor, and the setup, I would get the best & lightest weight power lift & bolt it on. That way you can make your neccesary adjustments instantaniously instead of getting out of the boat and checking the prop as we used to say when we had to get into the water for whatever reason. The 9 to 10 lbs cannot make more difference than what you will get in return on total performance for that little beast. Get the power unit & be done with it. Now you know my 2c. ha ha Tom

Just Say N20

05-21-2009, 01:06 PM

Sorry, the 47th time I looked at the picture ( :tongue: ), and noticed you were actually on a yacht, I noticed something was missing from the radar arch.

AndyDiSario

05-21-2009, 09:56 PM

Tom (Donzi Racer),

Ok, I don't mean to kill ya! I'm guessing I'm already pushing the limits quite far with the weight and power with which I'm working.

First, yes, good guess: you are indeed talking to a fellow CONTROL nut. Fern could tell you all about it. My take is you don't get to ride high-performance street motorcycles (in dangerous So. FL no less) nearly 30 years without insisting on attempting to control the vehicle and every dang thing around you, defend yourself and your passenger to the nth degree, etc. I insist on direct, immediate control in my vehicles, tools, garages, household, you name it. I hate Microsoft OS, and preferred OS/2 on these toy-computer PCs mostly because MS usurps too much control from the user. I have never owned an automatic transmission in my car nor motorcycle, though that is what Fern prefers in her car. (Yes, I did teach her and several others to drive a manual, ride a motorcycle, shift gears, drive boats, you name it.)

Yes, many of us guys are control fans, but I've found *we're not all the same!* Some are happy to let automatic transmissions, automated GPS'es, power seats, power tops, automated gizmos, women drive the remote, and so much more attempt to make the decisions. Not I! Some guys simply have no real mechanical interest either. And that's OK too. Believe it or not, We Are Not the Norm!

Just another example of insistence on direct control. Most younger guys now like turbos; what's with that? At least on gas engines, Not I! I hate 'em. #1 reason: Turbo Lag. Yech. No direct response, it's not for me. #2 reason: When I worked in the garage, I cannot tell you how many dead turbo'ed cars showed up in the shop, customer could not afford to replace the very-pricey turbo, and just continued driving the car with dead turbo, mandatory low compression engine, slug of a motor, etc.

Yeah, I thrive on crisp, responsive control. It's truly my thing. I'll bet most high-performance vehicle owners agree wholeheartedly.

Now, more to the point. You had put the fear of God, err... weight into me with your Black Max story. You were quite fortunate to have such a kind, fun grand-dad as a kid, and as he has surely passed by now, may he rest in peace. (I myself enjoyed wonderful granddads too, however none was the pure motorhead nor watersports-fan you mention, and that's OK too.)

I'm still waiting to learn the weight of your Yamaha 200, and likely treat that as a reasonable threshold. Just what model is it? I'd like to do some research. You are successful with the Yamaha and I'm just dieing to know some practical weight examples. I really don't want to repeat the Black Max story.

Mercury's Serial # tag on my Promax shows 375 pounds; I sure hope it's true. Yet, the Mercury Racing factory Service Manual I bought (great deal over EBay, by the way) shows under Specs, Standard 20" Shaft Outboard Weight of 428 lbs. Quite a difference. Any idea why the deviation?

In the meantime, one other very-knowledgeable fella, Greg also warned very, very seriously about every pound I add to the transom. Greg, are you there??

And what does that 5" or more of jackplate offset do? Could it cause the boat to porpoise?

I once tried to improve top speed of my 1997 Yamaha Waverunner GP1200, disappointed it was not the top-speed equivalent of its predecessor, the amazing-for-its-era, 62-mph-in-flat-water-only 1995 Waveraider 1100. I enjoyed favortism, short-cut a long line of waiting customers and got one of the first shortened, high-speed aftermarket ride plates from Riva Yamaha. Less resistance = more speed, or so was the theory. I bolted it on, sealed up the jet-pump with Marine Goop and headed out to Biscayne National Park with about 15 other riders for dozens of miles, back in the day, when PWC were legal there. The boat porpoised so badly, it wore out my knees; they hurt for weeks due to just trying to ride it with Fern aboard also for the day, refusing to back down. I still have knee ache, at least partially from that incident.

Now, again remember you are talking (writing, whatever) to a pure novice in this area with outboards, jackplates, propellers and more. I'm thrilled to be learning this wonderful game, yet fully realize There Is No Substitute for Real Experience. Double that now, as far as boating goes. So the best I can do at present, sitting here at my desk is pick the brains of you kind folks who know better.

>With the money you are spending on the rig, the motor, and the setup...

Wasn't it Ben Franklin who wrote "When a man says 'It's not the money, it's the principle,' it's the money"? Well, in this case, it's really not *just* the money.

Now, I'm gonna give you another perspective. No, I am not a wealthy man and value is the name of my game -- Good ole American Bang-for-the-buck. However, remember what I wrote: It's far cheaper than buying a senator! I really mean this.

Here is the competition, as I measure it:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/waverunner/products/modelfeatures/581/0/features.aspx
1.8L, supercharged 250 hp, 68 mph in magazine tests. $13,199 starting MSRP. I've wanted this boat since 1990, If Fern would have let me, I'd have mortgaged the house for it, it's finally available, and thanks to politics, I no longer play this game. With this baby, I'd certainly max-out the extended warranty; at least a supercharger provides direct response, though admittedly, the direct hit of immediate throttle response is less significant with a boat than on a car or bike.

Nonetheless, after all these years, after several failed attempts, I now have seen the light. It is not an oncoming train. It's name is Donzi.

When my wonderful, versatile boat beats this baby and beats it fair and square ("Spanks it real good" as the younger generation says), then I'll be happy. Really, really happy.

That's my 2-cents worth for the evening.
-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-22-2009, 04:43 AM

Just Say N20,

Glad you enjoyed the photo. I know I sure did(!). So much so, it is my PC desktop background, and is posted in my garages.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

05-22-2009, 10:38 AM

Here I go again pushing the limits.
This has nothing to do with Donzi, except there were many at this event and this pic was taken on their turf (err.. water, as it will). I've read the forum rules and if anyone finds this offensive, please post notice here, or email me directly. I will immediately remove it.
Here's a picture of our unofficial Columbus Day Regatta Queen, Photo Contest winner 2006, taken in Biscayne National Park, Key Biscayne, at what I feel is one of the coolest boating parties on the planet, here in sub-tropical paradise; it's an entire 3-day weekend of thousands of boats and their crews relaxing, playing and partying like there is no tomorrow, for a Marti Gras-like celebration on the water.
If you can ever make it here over Columbus Day Weekend, bring beads to share, and a squirt-gun to defend yourself.
Enjoy! (Or complain if you must.)
-Andy
DiSario@bellsouth.net

LKSD

05-23-2009, 09:56 AM

Here I go again pushing the limits.

This has nothing to do with Donzi, except there were many at this event and this pic was taken on their turf (err.. water, as it will). I've read the forum rules and if anyone finds this offensive, please post notice here, or email me directly. I will immediately remove it.

Here's a picture of our unofficial Columbus Day Regatta Queen, Photo Contest winner 2006, taken in Biscayne National Park, Key Biscayne, at what I feel is one of the coolest boating parties on the planet, here in sub-tropical paradise; it's an entire 3-day weekend of thousands of boats and their crews relaxing, playing and partying like there is no tomorrow, for a Marti Gras-like celebration on the water.

If you can ever make it here over Columbus Day Weekend, bring beads to share, and a squirt-gun to defend yourself.

Enjoy! (Or complain if you must.)

-Andy
DiSario@bellsouth.net

nice! & Enjoyed.. No complaints here :)

AndyDiSario

05-23-2009, 11:42 AM

Okiedokie.

I stand corrected.

If I'd found something written specifically prohibiting it, I wouldn't have posted it in the first place. Perhaps it's one's definition of "family friendly."

I will play Devils' Advocate here just for grins. In all of Europe, as well as South Beach Miami, and clearly-marked areas of Haulover Beach in Broward, this is accepted, common behavior. Funny, I've seen lots of children at these beaches and they act just as normal, healthy, well-adjusted children do and as children should, play in the surf, build sand-castles and are totally unfazed! It's the adults who seem to sometimes have hangups!

Oh well, that's the American Puritan way. Still, a great country, best on Earth, in my opinion.

By the way, you are fotunate my friend to have lived here (I assume you mean FL, "Just North of Cuba") all your life. Everyone should have the opportunity to live where he/she wishes, at least in adulthood. The US provides us that great opportunity. Anyway, I in contrast to you, grew up until age 14.5 years old, when my family migrated here, from NJ -- yes, even Newark, NJ. No offense to our fine friends in the NE, but for me, FL is Pure Paradise (excepting during hurricanes, of course).

I'll add that if anyone wants the photo directly, simply email me. No big deal, really.

Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
DiSario@bellsouth.net

AndyDiSario

05-27-2009, 09:56 PM

Update: My current jack plate choice is the BMS Ultra HD, at 37 lbs. on the transom:

http://www.bobsmachine.com/

-Andy

AndyDiSario

06-29-2009, 02:11 PM

Currently, the boat is rigged with the Mercury Pro Max 225X, new hydraulic steering and BMS 4" hydraulic jack plate. The motor starts and runs, so far in the shop only. Specs show maximum RPM is 6800. We're looking for a prop now. Suggestions appreciated.

First advice is to use at least a 24" pitch (from Michael of the Registry). The mechanic, Steve tells me a square hub assembly is used; we'll need something used to try to start with and all he has available is a 21. Seems this will be much too low a pitch, but obviously, I have no experience here.

(Greg, Tom, are you there?)

Regards,
Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
DiSario@bellsouth.net
561-479-0578

AndyDiSario

06-30-2009, 10:55 AM

Tom (Donzi Racer) recommended previously:
>get Grizz to help you prop it correctly

Grizz, any prop advice?

-Andy

BigGrizzly

07-01-2009, 11:14 AM

Ok get me a base line like Scott said, type and make of prop. The problem is all the 16 OBs, have different engines, so every one is different.

AndyDiSario

08-10-2009, 02:32 PM

Update: the boat is home now. I've spent quite some time sorting out several items, a bit much to list now. Steve (the mechanic) did a fine job of getting the majority of mechanical basics sorted out quite well, however his technician did leave quite some electrical/gauge work to sort out, still in progress.

Took it on vacation to Captiva a little over a week ago, taking it out in the Gulf and Intracoastal over there (west coast). I was ultra-careful not knowing the powertrain, the limits of this beast, and especially the often-shallow-inside waters, using a borrowed prop.

Then, took the boat out this past weekend for the better part of a day in known local waters (finally!) with my wife, Fern and good buddy (and wealth of boating knowledge), Stuart.

This boat accelerates like none other I've ever experienced. Finally, I own a boat which can (almost) be compared to my Yamaha V-Max motorcycle in acceleration! Of the various components, it's the lift plate that impresses us (all of us) the most. It's simply amazing. Drop it down for a most-impressive holeshot. Cruise at an easy 30 mph at middle RPM in relatively-calm water, without touching the throttle, then lift the motor all the way up and watch the revs rise a little and speed increase up to 7 mph! Bravo!

Still wasn't able to get top-speed mph even with the 21" pitch prop, as I was careful not to scare my wife too badly, who calls this a "white knucle ride." I did see Yamaha FX160 (my last Waverunner) top speed numbers on the GPS at 56 and approaching 58 mph. There was lots of room left I felt in better conditions with more RPM, even that with the 21 prop.

Next objective will be to equal and hopefully better my old Waveraider 1100 top-speed numbers in the low 60s (63-65 mph readout in glassy water only, but in pre-GPS days using only a goofy water-wheel speedometer).

Then, I'd next like to equal and hopefully better the latest supercharged / turbocharged PWC which show up to 68 mph stock on the radar/GPS in mag reports.

After that, the sky's the limit. We'll see.

I have lots of small projects to do to the boat remaining, and unfortunately, our house also, which is currently undergoing major interior renovation (my wife's project really, as I'm much more of a garage guy); still, I get stuck as Mr. Fix-it of last resort around the house and the Honey-Do lists and construction people's work items for me kept getting in the way of my preferred vehicle work and activities.

As far as the Promax 225, we love its smoke-free operation, so much better than our old premixed OBs -- the Donzi's ex-Johnson, and our Stingray's Force.

Still, a high-priority item at current will be to quiet down that noisy Promax! It's way too loud for my wife, a bit much for my passengers I suppose, and even started to annoy me. I love the motor as it offers the most power-to-weight that can be bolted onto the transom (even better than my second choice, the pricey, 200 HP E-Tec), and it's bang-for-the-buck value is great too! Still, I gotta quiet this thing down.

Current thinking is much of the noise is due to that ultra-lightweight engine cowling, completely void of any insulation. Greg suggested using:
http://www.dynamat.com/ This could be a real good alternative, I hope.

Another question: Does anyone know if I can purchase a quieter engine cowling for the Promax 225X, leaving me to sell the stock ultra-lightweight one? It'd surely be heavier, but a few pounds shouldn't make that much difference -- could be worth it.

-Andy

"All things in moderation. Too much of anything is no good, well ... except ... horsepower and garage space."

fasttrucker

08-10-2009, 09:51 PM

have you gone on the www.screamandfly.com site its an outboard boating site,out of long is.ny area.They know outboards.I just bought a 16 outboard with a johnson 200hp outboard.picking it up next sunday.So Iam no help to you right now,my 16 comes with cmc manual jack plate and foot trim.Ill post pictures and my plans soon.good luck.

AndyDiSario

08-12-2009, 11:36 AM

Fasttrucker,

Thanks. Very cool. Best of luck with your 16 outboard. Do keep me appraised. If my very-limited (but slowly growing) knowledge about this boat can be of any use to you, don't hesitate to contact me.

I have browsed ScreamAndFly before. Is there any way to "Search" the forums for information, such as in the Donzi Registry? Do you know, does one need join as a "Team Member" in order to post?

Regards,
Andy DiSario
Boca Raton, FL
DiSario@bellsouth.net
561-479-0578

AndyDiSario

08-22-2009, 01:15 PM

I'm considering the competition, 200 hp Evinrude E-Tec vs. my Mercury Promax 225X.

The E-Tec brochure shows its 200 hp, 20"-shaft, 2589 cc outboard weighs 419 lbs.

I have a question regarding the Promax'es weight. The motor serial number tag shows a weight of 375 lbs. In post #99 is a photo:
http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54091&highlight=16+outboard&page=7

Yet, the Promax Service Manual shows in Section 1A - Specifications an outboard weight for the 20" standard shaft model of 428 lbs. Which is correct? Could it be the serial number tag weight does not include the Lower Unit, which is a Sport Master gearcase, in this case? Just guessing.

Accordingto Buizilla, "a 2000 year 225 ProMax weighs 392#." Ours is a 2002 year; should this be close?

As I recall, it was mentioned to me once (by Greg, I believe) a Promax indeed weighs right about 375 lbs on a fish-hook.

Just trying to compare apples to apples. Reason I'm interested is yesterday, I bought Dynamat insulation to help quiet down the Promax. If this does not work out, I would then consider selling this otherwise-wonderful Promax and looking for an E-Tec. Surely, I want to know what to expect if downgrading (in power) to the 200 HP E-Tec. Truthfully, if the Promax serial number tag is indeed correct (375 lbs), based on my experience now with the boat, it's very-likely not a good idea to add another 44 lbs to the transom in order rig an E-Tec, regardless of HP. Given this is the case (the Promax weighs 375, and a 419-lb E-Tec is indeed too much weight), the E-Tec is ruled out as a power choice, as the most-powerful model under 419 lbs is the 115 hp V4 at 369 lbs.

Looks like I better get to work quieting down that Promax!

-Andy

BUIZILLA

08-22-2009, 01:45 PM

get a 200 HO

fasttrucker

08-22-2009, 06:57 PM

yes e-tec 200 ho is factory tuned and makes more hp then 200.also has the faster/high performance lower unit iam told.Maybe faster then your pro-max?

BigGrizzly

08-23-2009, 08:33 AM

Then you have to drive it ant that might not be as easy as you think, fun is gone.

Greg Guimond

08-23-2009, 09:20 AM

The Promax line of motors was Mercury's BEST for power and reliability before the direct injected XS motors came along (except for 2 years, mentioned below). They started in 1994.

The 150, 200, and 225 Promax motors are all 2.5 liter with the 'laser' injection system. They don't really turn much more rpm than the standard 'fishin' motors. A standard 2.5 engine rpm range tops out at 5800, while the 225 promax was rated for 6400. They also aren't higher compression than the standard fishin' motors. They have the advantage of solid engine mounts. Therefore, all things being equal, a Promax will last every bit as long as a standard 200 horse 2.5 fishin' motor. The Promax line is basically a standard motor with minor tweaks and assembled by the Mercury Racing guys.

There was some problems with the '98 and '99 motors burning up out of the factory. Mercury tried to lean up the programming for emissions and many motors fried without Mercury or Rapair updated ECU. Your 225X avoids all that.

Now, one more thing. Make sure it's a Promax. I can't count how many ads I've read where a motor is mis-named. Last thing. The pointy nose cone thingy is most likely slowing that boat down with a 225X Promax.

When you started out the goal was to take the 16 and "hot rod" it. The 225x is the best for that goal IF the goal has remained. They do not have an open exhaust, are the lightest option in a "newer" motor weight wise and the noise you are talking about can be dealt with if you spend a bit of time with qualified stereo accoustics shops. I would pursue this option before re-rigging for an E-TEC 200 HO that will be heavier, more expensive, and slower.

AndyDiSario

08-24-2009, 10:56 AM

Buizilla,

Nice thought, however Evinrude lists 509 lbs for the 200 H.O. V6. at 3279 cc -- too heavy for the boat.

-Andy

fasttrucker

08-24-2009, 12:03 PM

My 16 project is in trouble this hull needs a lot of work!The sides are weak also. To do it right,the deck+the floor should come off.The motor should come off and the gas tank removed.Then I should redo the transom again even tho it was done when the guy installed the jack plate.It would make a nice donzi sport boat.If anyone wants to take over.....I have spent $5000.00:wink:so far.Iam going to list it for sale here and on e-bay,but first Iam going to take a week off it and think about it. :confused:

AndyDiSario

08-24-2009, 01:10 PM

Hello Greg,

A 200+HP Optimax or Yamaha, as well as *most* other direct-injected 2-strokes are heavy, much too heavy for the Classic. I asked the marine mechanic why so many modern EFI 2-strokes outweigh the Promax. After all, we're not talking 4-stroke OBs, nor much-heavier I/Os here. I understand things like titanium rods and shorter piston skirts reduce weight in some racing motors, but what gives? The skinny: Direct injection is no free lunch, even discounting cost and complexity. One significant reason is a compressor is required to attain ultra-high DI fuel pressures. The Promax gets by with an ordinary electric fuel pump. That's when the light-bulb came on in this dim brain: KISS.

For power-to-weight in an efficient-EFI, idle-oil-smoke-free, still-durable 2-stroke, it seems nothing but nothing beats the Promax; I sure wish it were not so noisy, even at the expense of some performance and weight.

No wonder why the EPA shut it down (as I'd assume, absolute emissions were the cause of the demise of the Promax). All good things must come to an end.

I have a call into Mercury Marine at present. Does the Promax 225X indeed weigh 375 lbs as the serial tag shows, or instead 428 as the Mercury Racing Service Manual, specs page 1A-1 indicates? I'll post Mercury's response.

On maximum RPM, the manual and serial number tag do agree -- 6500, with limiter kicking in at 6800 (pg. 1A-1 again). I'd realized (via reading and thinking, not my own $ that time), a rev-limiter is a very-good thing in a high-performance motor, be it in a boat, car or motorcycle. Believe it or not, back in the day (early-mid 1990s), it was the in thing to modify PWC to the max (pipes, carbs, total-loss ignitions, delete water-boxes, remove rev limiters for higher RPM), then attempt (in vain) to "let off" the throttle in time during cavitation or when jumping waves to avoid over-reving. How stupid. As if a human operator (the owner, or worse yet, a thrill-seeking borrower) would react in time!

I really appreciate your advice in leading me to the Promax. Thank you. It fit my initial requirements to a "tee" for best reliable power-to-weight that can be bolted onto the transom of the Classic. I was concerned about durability and learned the Promax can hold up fine for our semi-frequent recreational use, and my-only-occasional WOT blasts.

If you reference prior posts, you will indeed see this motor is a Promax 225X, with pictures and serial number tag included, model year 2002, serial OT430255.

Fern absolutely loves the smoke-free operation and easy starting. No more premixing, smoke-screen idle in minimum-wake zones, people choking with a tail-wind or starting-cold only with starting fluid. For some reason, this old ex-mechanic gets unusual looks from people's faces when, after priming, I turn on the ignition, pull the cowling, rig up a temporary fast-idle wedge into the linkage, if no one is available to turn the key to "start," hot-wire the starter relay, all the while spraying the carbs with starting fluid (only with top-cylinder lube added, of course), in order to get our Stingray's Force 120 started cold. This boot-straps the Force, or our ex-Johnson also into running every time -- sure beats running down the battery in vain.

However, I grossly underestimated how noisy this Promax Racing Motor could be! I'd actually guessed it would be a tad quieter than the Force 120 or Johnson, as after all these run open carbs and a simple manifold. I promised Fern it would be virtually smoke-free, reliable and more efficient too, as it is. I warned her it would not be E-Tec or 4-stroke quiet, but should be instead what we're used to with the Force (or Johnson), hopefully a tad quieter. "A real good compromise for our performance craft," I assumed. "You want a family-friendly, quiet, ultra-low-emissions, lower performance E-Tec, save up for one on our family craft (Stingray bowrider). "Jack this sucker up and this one will be my rocket ship in flat water," I thought. Boy did I understimate one thing! Missed it by this much -> " " <-.

I bought a racing motor. I was concerned what disadvantages to a high-performance, recreational user that might mean. Turns out I got what I paid for.

Yesterday, I carefully listened with a stethoscope while Fern slowly drove the boat. My worst fears were confirmed. Most of the noise is intake roar coming straight out the intake air ports in the cowling, not coming through the lightweight plastic cowling itself. I don't see that Dynamat insulation on the cowling will address the root problem here.

The Mercury Marine Racing tech person I consulted last week said there was nothing I could do to quiet the noise. It's intake roar coming from the air plenum. I was not happy to hear his advice. Apparently, he knew what he was talking about.

>"The noise you are talking about can be dealt with if you spend a bit of >time with qualified stereo accoustics shops. I would pursue this option >before re-rigging for an E-TEC 200 HO that will be heavier, more >expensive, and slower."

Please, can you elaborate. I started out last week at "Speed and Truck World" in Ft. Laud. buying Dynamat Extreme Trunk Kit and Dynamat 1/2" foam, still unopened in the box. S&T's insulation "expert" also mentioned a bed-liner by LineX products that could potentially be adhered to the outside of the cowling to provide extra insulation, if need be. Still, I believe this would not address the root cause -- the intake plenum's roar coming straight through essential motor air inlets.

Regards,
Andy

fasttrucker

08-24-2009, 01:30 PM

The 175 pro xs is the lighter motor.I was reading about it on scream+fly.That would work nice, maybe a little less hp but better fuel mpg for sure.I know less noise on this opti-max.

BUIZILLA

08-24-2009, 01:35 PM

the 175 ProXS is about 190-192 hp...

straight from the Merc house mouth

AndyDiSario

08-24-2009, 03:47 PM

Oh no! What a drag.
I hope things work out for you somehow. I'm no help, of course. That's over my head.

One thing I myself have adopted via necessity from such episodes is to try to learn from everything in life, even the lessons I wished did not occur, pick myself back up and try again, older, achier and hopefully, just a little wiser. Don't give up your dream. In my own case, just refer back to pictures of the '65 Corvette which suffered about a 5:1 failure:success rate, and the very ongoing discussion over my Promax, just for example. I picked up a quotation about such matters from an old buddy, Leo: "Fall back and regroup."

By the way, I've grown accustomed to using Craigslist.org for buying and especially, selling items. Nearly all ads are free and it works like a champ! I've found buyers for over a dozen items there recently for both myself and buddies too. Craigslist, like the Keys and Peanut Island is a gift -- too good to be true, at least until some @#$*x&% figures out a way to take 'em away from us. (Locals will understand the two locations.)

Andy
Boca Raton, FL

AndyDiSario

08-24-2009, 04:52 PM

Buizilla and fasttrucker,

About which Mercury 175 Pro XS do you refer? Was there one built a few years ago with better power-to-weight? Mercury shows a dry weight of 431 lbs for the 175 hp model:
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/optimax/twofiveliter_specs.php

Best quieter motor I see out there is the E-Tec 200 hp small-block at 418 (web site), or 419 (brochure) lbs:
http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/

I did browse scream and fly, but apparently have missed something. Can you send the reference?

-Andy

BUIZILLA

08-24-2009, 07:34 PM

the Etec 200 small block is a good choice at 431, then you have the bada$$ 175 ProXs with a sportmaster lower that's rumored 190hp... advantage Merc, but I am an Etec fan so it's a toss up

Greg Guimond

08-24-2009, 09:37 PM

Andy,

Before you go p_ _ _ing money away I would have a chat with Wildman over on SnF as to what might make sense with Mercury.

As to a re-rig with the ETEC, if you want a no noise option the ETEC small block is a great motor .......you can't hear the thing.

Or you could give your wife a set of foam ear plugs ............WHAT?

What prop do you have on that eggbeater and what RPM/GPS?

AndyDiSario

08-25-2009, 12:44 AM

Greg,

As far as the money, you are right; high-performance never comes cheaply. However, I must repeat a prior quote: This is cheaper than buying a senator. Far, far cheaper. No kidding. For the first time in my life, we have a sporty powerboat I love which runs free of restrictions! The Stingray is good, don't get me wrong, but I can never get too excited about a mini-van, whether it floats or simply rolls down the road.

This is more wonderful than one might imagine. This is our very-favorite sport -- small, high-performance powerboating, and even my wife is beginning to get it (Donzi vs. Waverunner). I'll never own another PWC. For 19.5 years, even our motorcycles did not compare with our love of this water-based power-sport.

As far as ear plugs with the Promax, we've used both foam roll-up ear plugs and sound-deadening ear-muffs. Simultaneously. Twice. I'd indicated this was no permanent solution, but simply an attempt to verify everything else was right with the Donzi (spot-on, actually), before investing further resources to proceed.

Last time out, we used only the muffs. Either way, it's so annoying to us, and the Bilson sound-deadeners still are not all that effective. Yes, I'm a performance junkee. Still, I wish to hear my passengers squeal with delight when I open the throttle, not stick our heads in a boilermaker.

I actually appreciate a bit of exhaust tone in our fun vehicles as long as it does not alienate (annoy) non-enthusiasts who then react by joining together to ban you. But, that's about enough and exhaust noise is not the issue here. This thing makes a racket as if your head is stuck in the crankcase and the motor is running its last few RPM without oil. Now I understand a race motor, though reliable, stout, efficient and durable, remains just that. You see, we both love reasonable peace and beauty of our water environment.

Another subject: One thing I've learned is the lift-plate is much better than sliced bread. And that's only the beginning...

-Andy

AndyDiSario

08-25-2009, 08:10 AM

I forgot to answer your questions:
>What prop do you have on that eggbeater and what RPM/GPS?

Currently we're using a Merc. Marine Mirage Plus 21P stainless prop. It's borrowed from Steve, the mechanic, in order to get some seat time, before committing to something much taller. We could not find anything used and taller locally to try.

I also bought a new, Quicksilver 23" pitch aluminum prop to have as a spare, and hypothetically to use next winter to try running the Everglades again. The Quicksilver remains in the box, unused. It is the tallest aluminum prop that fits the Sport Master prop shaft. Steve told me I should be able to adapt it to another motor, if need be.

I have not yet done maximum speed and RPM trials, still gaining seat time and experience. I do not attempt this with my wife aboard, as I make it a point to never scare passengers. Still, we did see 56-58 mph GPS already, which is nearly 10 mph faster than the best I could squeak out of the Johnson. Also, the acceleration is astounding -- "Acceleration is exhilaration."

I understand there should be much more to be found with experience and tuning, as time passes. I'll update as that occurs.

-Andy

BUIZILLA

08-25-2009, 08:56 AM

I don't think the rake angle or round ear design on that aluminum prop is going to work out for the best..

AndyDiSario

08-25-2009, 09:54 AM

Greg,

Any pointers navigating SnF? It's truly rich in detail. How does one search the fora, for example to find Wildman? Do you know how to get in touch with him -- email or phone #?

Thanks,
Andy

AndyDiSario

08-25-2009, 11:02 AM

Buizilla,

Yes, you are correct. The aluminum prop became a best-case shot at something affordable that could get us along, down the water if need be. Also, I will need a sacrificial wheel to run next winter in the Everglades, at least if we aim to launch here in Palm Beach, where I've learned (the hard way) when the winter water-table is low, a single submerged stump near the ramp bends your skeg and sacrifices your prop, but is still better than breaking your lower unit. Probably next winter, I'll stick to the Broward Everglades, abundant with nearly-endless deep-water canals, which have no speed limits, and to the best of my research are free from obstructions.

-Andy

fasttrucker

08-25-2009, 11:13 AM

Greg,

Any pointers navigating SnF? It's truly rich in detail. How does one search the fora, for example to find Wildman? Do you know how to get in touch with him -- email or phone #?

Thanks,
Andy]He has a web site,go to scream+fly, then go motors for sale then scroll a couple of pages till you find him,then send him a pm.or call him at 1-386-761-8050,his name is randy.

fasttrucker

08-25-2009, 11:20 AM

Taking the donzi to the shop tomorow,then Ill give up.:yes:

AndyDiSario

08-25-2009, 04:38 PM

fasttrucker,

Thanks for the leads to Randy. I called him. His shop is located just south of Daytona, about 200 miles north of my home.

Good luck with your boat, even if you must sell. Don't give up the dream, though.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

08-26-2009, 06:00 AM

>Before you go p_ _ _ing money away I would have a chat with Wildman over on SnF as to what might make sense with Mercury.

Unfortunately, Wildman Randy agreed with the Mercury Marine Racing tech contact, as well as my own stethoscope. There is nothing I can do to quiet the Promax. He offered to take it as a trade-in towards a quieter Pro XS, which should be a direct replacement, retaining nearly all other parts in place. "Save sales tax with a trade-in," was his suggestion, and my own experience in the past with such vehicle-related transactions. I like the idea, however the best 2.5L power-to-weight I see with the Pro XS / Optimax is 175 hp : 431 lbs.

The E-Tec offers 200 hp : 419 lbs, however requires more conversion effort and expense.

I'm willing to hunt for a carburetted 2.5L 2-stroke with equal or better power-to-weight than the E-Tec, as long as it has trustworthy, variable-oil-injection (Fern and even I am now are sold on this), runs quieter and is in excellent, dependable condition. New or slightly-used. Any suggestions? Carburettors offer the advantages of tried-and-true dependability, simplicity, light weight and lower cost. If it's easier to cold-start than my Force, which I admit could be modified for easier priming, that's a big advantage too.

When I started out hunting for this boat, I made major effort to find the best small sport-boat platform of any brand available that runs free from PWC restrictions. I looked at many, many alternatives to the Donzi, a few mentioned in my prior posts. I kept looking at other candidates even after buying the 16 Classic, while waiting for it to be shipped to our house from NJ. "You bought the Donzi, why are you still looking?" my buddy, Stuart asked.

"Because I need to ensure I've chosen the best available platform, 2nd-to-none. If something better appears, I'll sell the Donzi here in the FL market now, then start over. Five years from now, I don't want to have invested major resouces into this boat, then kick myself saying 'I wish I'd started with a xxxx' ." This lesson I've learned from the '65 Corvette Sting Ray, which looking back with hindsight in its case, was the ideal make, model, year and body I craved, but not the best physical example to begin the long, painful, expensive restoration which I undertook. Not to mention the money, I put endless blood, sweat, fears and tears into that car -- nearly ten years worth. At the time, my eyes glazed over with 30 years of pent-up, youthful lust, my brain, ego and soul were frustrated by my current torque-less 4-cylinder sports-car (Miata), and I followed my heart a little too much when I started on that one in 1995.

-Andy

BUIZILLA

08-26-2009, 06:10 AM

the best 2.5L power-to-weight I see with the Pro XS / Optimax is 175 hp : 431 lbs.

the 175 ProXS is about 190-192 hp...

straight from the Merc house mouth

then you have the bada$$ 175 ProXs with a sportmaster lower that's rumored 190hp... I knew there was an echo in here...:wink:

AndyDiSario

08-26-2009, 06:36 AM

Any authoritive documentation that the 175 ProXS makes 190-192 hp?

smallblockford

08-26-2009, 12:19 PM

Any authoritive documentation that the 175 ProXS makes 190-192 hp?
i have heard guranteed 10 percent over hp rating from my merc rep but have never seen it proved

smallblockford

08-26-2009, 12:23 PM

i would look for a 2.4 tuned had one on my stv 15 offshore tuner, 30 over, reads, ported. power to wheight was great put out 280 hp i believe when it was done
screamed out to 7600 rpm

just be carefull they can be tempormental and have it built right or they will come apart

AndyDiSario

08-26-2009, 04:33 PM

2002 Mercury Racing Promax 225X Outboard For Sale. Like-new cond. - $6495

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/1343859018.html

If anyone can post a link to this on Scream and Fly, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Andy

AndyDiSario

08-26-2009, 04:53 PM

Just Say N20

08-26-2009, 05:34 PM

It would be very interesting to have the capability to actually figure (using Rootsy type MAC-Daddy forumlas) what the precise difference is in the way a 16 floats with 419 lbs of outboard hanging 4" off the back, versus 900 lbs of SBC sitting 10" in front of the transom, and then whatever effect the outdrive has in this scenario.

Surely, someone on this site has that capability. Figuring gas tank volume is about as far as I can go :biggrin:.

AndyDiSario

08-26-2009, 08:37 PM

Just Say N2O,

Wow, I do believe there's someone out there with at least the interest (and capability too) in practical math applying to vehicles as myself (a good amount of interest, a little capability, in my own case).

Key question remaining is: What's the true weight of the Promax, 375 lbs as indicated on the serial number tag, or 428 lbs, as documented in Mercury's own Service Manual? In nearly all other cases, I believe the factory manual as Gospel, however we're talking a Mercury Serial Number tag here, not someone's claim in a magazine article or worse yet, advertising.

Why am I so interested? Probably it's obvious, but if the manual is correct, the boat handling, ride and splashwell water-take-on effect of the E-Tec's weight is a drop-in, as compared to Mr. Promax. Otherwise, I'm dealing with another 44 lbs of E-Tec hanging the same 4" off the transom.

Gotta try compare apples to apples.

I'll call Mercury again and try to get to the root of it.

Still yearning for a lead to a lightweight, quiet Mercury to compete (power-to-weight, again) with the E-Tec, new or used, EFI or carb'ed. That'd make for an easier and less-costly replacement.
-Andy

AndyDiSario

08-27-2009, 05:44 AM

Anyone know of a way to retrofit a reliable, modern variable-oil injection system to this motor?:
http://www.outboardexchange.com/200_mercury/index.html

This motor should run at the same volume (noise) level as an ordinary, non-race two-stroke, correct?

Can trustworthy oil-injection parts from my Promax or another Mercury be used? I was hoping to retain the very-clean Mercury remote oil tank along with its custom oil-fill port and cap Steve installed in my Donzi anyway.

-Andy

Greg Guimond

08-27-2009, 07:42 AM

Best option would be a 2000 or 2001 Mercury 200hp EFI. Talk to Wildman to see what he has but remember that the Mercury's will be more noisy then an ETEC anyway you slice it and at idle there is no comparison.

AndyDiSario

08-27-2009, 08:40 AM

I've spoken with Mercury Marine Factory Technical support, a helpful fella named Jason. Jason put me on hold a few times to ask in-house experts my questions. Their answers are crisp.

Jason confirms the Promax Racing motors are extremely loud, nothing can be done to silence them, and he prefers not to use them in recreational boats.

The Promax 225X weighs 375 lbs without the gearcase (as I suspected but did not let on). It indeed weighs 428 lbs with the gearcase, as the Mercury Service Manual indicates. (Confirming this information helps tremendously with my hypothetical apples-to-apples comparisons.)

Unfortunately, there is no way to retrofit a contemporary, reliable variable-oil injection to an older Mercury Marine 2-stroke outboard, such as the 1992 - 2000 200 hp 2.5 liter I mentioned in Post #177.

I asked my last resort question about the older 200 hp motor: Can the original oil-injection be restored, properly-maintained and trusted on this older Mercury motor? Jason's answer is he always recommends removing older oil-injections and running premix, otherwise (apparently-frequent) failures result in seized powerheads.

Remember our objective is to replace our prior smoke-free 4-stroke electric-motor-quiet Waverunner with the Donzi. That's when Fern, and I too will be happy.

Best options for repower remain:
#1. E-tec 200 HP at 419 lbs.
#2. Mercury 175 hp Pro XS / Optimax at 431 lbs.

-Andy

fasttrucker

08-27-2009, 12:16 PM

Current choice to repower is the 200 hp small-block E-Tec at 419 lbs, simply because it has the best power-to-weight in a quiet outboard.

Some one please shoot darts at this idea if you can. Any negatives?

Can the Donzi Classic 16 OB handle 419 lbs OK with that wonderful BMS 4" jackplate in place?

Is a low water pickup required with an E-Tec and the jackplate?

E-Tec (or otherwise) experience and advice appreciated.

Regards,
Andy
Your jackplate should handle the e-tec.Did you reinforce the transom with 3/4 inch marine plywood,like they did to my 16?Also I would get the e-tec H.O. model that has a speed/low water/lower unit/factory tuned unit.Have you added a water pressure line/gauge to your dash,I have one.

AndyDiSario

08-28-2009, 01:37 AM

(First an email CC sent to Greg about a 2000 Mercury 200 EFI, OI on 8/27)
====================================

As usual, Thank You!
I'm researching it.

The motor has been rebuilt, including new pistons and rings. The price is $5000.
I'm told it is oil- and fuel-injected and the oil injection on this 2000 model can be trusted.

I'm hoping I don't really need a low-water pickup, even though I will retain the BMS liftplate.
I've noticed I run nowhere near surface piercing mode with the Donzi, but
just being able to raise the motor on demand has so much benefit. The water pressure gauge should tell me immediately if I've raised the motor too much, right? Your opinion?

Still, if I need to send the gearcase to BMS for low-water conversion, I will.

More later,
Andy

=============================================

Also, I'll research to find out more about this rebuilt Merc, for example:

Q1. Weight? I assume it's about 400 lbs, but will find out for sure.

Q2. I assume this motor should run at about the volume level of the Force in the Stingray, or the ex-Johnson in the Donzi -- maybe 1/3 the noise of the Promax'es deafening roar under throttle. Both these are typical 2-stroke volume, but never objectionable. Jason of Mercury Marine indicated this about ordinary (non-race) Mercuries -- they're nothing like their race motors. I'll call again to confirm.

Though louder than a 4-stroke or E-Tec, this Mercury should be standard (non-race) 2-stroke tolerable, right? I think I'll take Fern out in the Stingray again soon, ask her to sit in the stern wearing one of my respirators in order to minimize its oil-smoke effect, then go cruise some long Broward Intracoastal canals (which are mainly minimum wake on the weekends). This should simulate sitting in the back of the Donzi with an ordinary OI 2-stroke.

Q3. Indeed, the oil injection is trustworthy and variable-rate, correct? This should be similar to the wonderful OI in the Promax, which is 99% oil-smoke-free at low speed (longish minimum-wake zones and flushing in my driveway or garage being prime examples)? From everything I've heard, read and learned, I should be able to trust its reliability and the Guardian system to control and warn of such failures in worst-case.

Q4. Warranty?

Q5. Is low-water pickup really necessary to enjoy the liftplate for my use? Case in point -- The Promax is currently mounted on the 2nd-lowest motor-plate mounting hole, bolted to the lift plate. I feel it could be raised one bolt-hole, 3/4" to mid-position, thereby gaining 3/4" in the highest lift-plate position, and giving up just 3/4" of down position. I've been reproducing this 3/4"-from-bottom lowest setting as a hypothetical lowest setting, by repeatedly running hole-shots there and trying ocean chop both with and against the current. The idea is to see if there is any difference between the 0" and 3/4" setting. I cannot find a difference between 0 and 3/4" position so far. Raising the motor one bolt-hole to middle position would benefit the highest, 6" setting by making it effectively 6 3/4".

What I've noticed is I run nowhere near surface-piercing mode, and I doubt this is feasible or beneficial to my boat. In position #6 at present, the prop and ventilation plate remain buried in the water, at least when I idle in neutral and drift out of the channel and walk back there into the splashwell to check it out. Obviously, on plane this will change some. Next time out, I'll have my mate drive on a light plane, setting 6 while I sit on the stern bench and check it out further.

All the while, the very-useful water pressure gauge indicates good pressure at all lift-plate settings. When driving and especially, when lifting the motor, I keep one eye on that gauge, as I'm still climbing the learning curve here, for sure. If I should see water pressure fall off, I intend to immediately drop the motor and revs, and investigate the root cause (motor too high, clogged intake, whatever). Many posts back, one of you guys advised me the most-critical gauge to add was not my assumption of the depth gauge (of which a Faria is also now in place), but instead the water pressure gauge (another Faria added). You sure were right.

Anyway, today in visiting Steve's shop, Powerboat Services, I checked out a center-console boat running a T-H Marine liftplate (the brand commonly used there). I would have chosen the familiar T-H myself, except that it places too many components (i.e. weight) on the transom, as compared to the BMS. Anyway, this boat used conventional water pickup above the nosecone, just like my direct-transom-mounted Force. I'm wondering if for my use (limited but not extreme lifting), this is all I really need on the Donzi with its deep-Vee, meaning the Sportmaster is not really necessary; this was indicated to me several months ago (I think by Greg). TBD...

==============================

So why don't I just go for a new E-Tec small-block 200, as if one need ask?

Was it Ben Franklin who wrote, "To really get a man's attention, hit him in the pocketbook!"? A small-block E-Tec costs about $14K plus a new control box. Also, a new trim gauge and its sender, a new high-tech tach must replace my beautiful white-faced, SS-bezeled, analog Farias. Plus labor. I'm figuring maybe $17K!, less whatever I get for the Promax.

Then, although appearance takes a far-back-seat to performance, safety, function, comfort and usability in my book, I admit those beautiful Faria gauges are pure jewelry to my eyes. Although it is no show-stopper, nothing Evinrude produces could equal that extensive set of beautiful, matching Farias. "Bling," Steve calls them. Plus the form-follows-function theme I live by is at peace in that these gorgeous Farias are so practical also, monitoring critical boat functions.

OK anyway, an E-Tec is not as expensive as buying a Senator (see my prior posts if you wish), but still some serious bucks. In comparison, a clean, used non-racing OI Merc should be a direct, easy drop-in and cost no more than the value of my Promax.

I like the Pro XS, a more-practical modern refit than the E-Tec, however remember, its maximum 175 hp : 431 lbs does not compete for me. I'm already conceding to give up my 225+ hp due to that loud engine; I don't want to be opening the throttle of the boat for the rest of my ownership (hopefully, a good, long time), wishing I had at least 200 hp.

Fern and I very-recently have added an extra garage to our house, and are now completing extensive interior remodeling (over 1000 sq. ft. of new tile replacing dozens of broken, lifting, unavailable ones, and complete brand-new kitchen to the max for Fern). When a woman says "This kitchen is so inconvenient," it translates to "I want a new house." That was pretty-much the case for our first house. Fern finally got me to move after trying for years by eventually finding my weak point, exclaiming "You need more garage space!"

Now, in this case, our 2nd- and final-house, it was more like "This kitchen is so ugly." A wise husband (still struggling with that one) who'd rather live in peace out in his garages with his vehicles at least takes note.

Yes, I recently sold our Waverunner, its trailer, stand and spares, one old motorcycle, various unused spare vehicle parts, plus my beloved 1993 Yamaha V-Max motorcycle. Still, I'm hoping a nearly-new Harley Sportster (1200 model, of course) is in my not-too-distant future after hopefully recovering from house and Donzi expenses. Get the picture, here?

-Andy

AndyDiSario

08-28-2009, 02:44 AM

BUIZILLA

08-28-2009, 07:01 AM

why are you so worried about 20# give or take?

fasttrucker

08-28-2009, 10:36 AM

fasttrucker,

Yes, the BMS jackplate can handle far more weight and HP than my little boat.

I'm glad to hear your transom is reinforced. How are you doing with the boat, by the way?

I asked for my transom to be reinforced. It now has a beautiful custom, complete, 1/4"-thick wrap-around metal plate. It is non-corroding (alum. I believe, or possibly all-stainless -- a magnet does not stick). It wraps nearly from the splashwell floor, around and over the top of the transom and down almost to the keel, with hole drilled for the scupper. It is powder-coated white. Also, there are a pair of additional, horizontal aluminum reinforcement plates which span the mounting bolt holes on the front side of transom.

About the H.O. E-Tecs. They're too big and heavy for the boat! According to Evinrude's brochure, H.O. small-shaft (20") E-Tecs displace 3279 cc and weigh at least 509 lbs.

About the water-pressure gauge, good question. Yes, as I wrote in the prior post, this Faria gauge is the most-critical instrument on the dash. Makes me wonder how I got by without one on powerboats all these years (19.5), though none other featured a liftplate.

Regards,
-Andy
Wow,I would like to see a picture of your transom and jackplate,You must have spent some real money on it.Iam unsure about my transom work,It looks strong.When we pull the floor out, ill know for sure.I think I have a newer omc pressure gauge,ill check and take a picture.If the evenrude H.O. is out I would go with the mercury 175 pro-xs.That other outboard that your looking at sounds like it would work just fine. My sweet 16 is at "The outboard shop" awaiting its return.Iam at a crossroad and if everything is ok with my 200 johnson.Then, when I sell my 2002 22zx.Iam going to go ahead and fix my fiberglass work,then buy a new trailer.My dream of getting this all done for under $10,000. is most likely a dream.If I can get this donzi safe and running well then, I plan to keep her as my second boat for a long time.If not Ill sell it.

Dredgeking

08-28-2009, 11:38 AM

OK, so how much hp can I stick on the back of a 16' OB? Can I throw a new 350 on the back?

BUIZILLA

08-28-2009, 12:12 PM

OK, so how much hp can I stick on the back of a 16' OB? Can I throw a new 350 on the back? sure, just don't put it in gear.. :nilly:

Dredgeking

08-28-2009, 12:36 PM

I believe you have never have too much power, but you can use too much power. What if I only run the 350 at 1/2 throttle :wink:

zelatore

08-28-2009, 12:54 PM

I believe you have never have too much power, but you can use too much power. What if I only run the 350 at 1/2 throttle :wink:

Can you use the other half of the power to run a really, really, REALLY big bilge pump to keep the ass-end afloat at anything less than full-plane?

fasttrucker

08-28-2009, 01:37 PM

OK, so how much hp can I stick on the back of a 16' OB? Can I throw a new 350 on the back?
I was told my 1979 johnson 200hp could be made into a 300hp racing motor that would run for a short time and then blow-up.You could do that.:bonk:

Dredgeking

08-28-2009, 01:50 PM

If I put a 350 on the back, you know I'd need to add nitrous. Might as well go big.

AndyDiSario

08-28-2009, 10:09 PM

Buizilla,

I cannot say I understand the reference to 20 lbs difference. The Promax weighs 375 lbs on the Serial Number Tag, but is shown as 428 lbs Outboard Weight with Standard 20" shaft in the Mercury Service Manual, page 1A-1. My wild guess was that the Serial Tag did not include the gearcase. Mercury Technical Support finally conclusively answered my question as to the difference, with contact to their local Mercury Racing expert, and no hints from me about my novice guess. Once in a great while, one shoots from the hip and guesses corrrectly. Shoulda guessed a lotto number instead, huh?

E-tec 200 2.5 is 419 lbs, is ultra-quiet for a 2-stroke, but is one very-X-Pen-Sive conversion!

Clean used, late-model standard Merc 200 (with variable-OI, either EFI or carb'ed) should hopefully bolt right on, using all my current Mercury-compatible components, and cost about what my pristine Racing Promax is worth (maybe a tad less if I'm really lucky, but I've probably already exhausted my luck supply this year). A standard Merc should have a standard-two-stroke noise level. Sound like a safe assumption, guys? So far, I see pre-Optimax/ProXS Merc 200 weights of V6 motors in the low-400s, much like Mr. Promax 225X. Hopefully, these Merc. 200 2-stroke weights on NADA include the gear case:
http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-24-38-5692-0-0-0&l=1&w=24&p=38&f=5694&gc=MR&gtc=OB&m=0013&y=2004&ml=M

I've learned from those wiser, more-experienced folks in the know about this little Donzi OB platform (Tom, Greg and Michael) to stay away from heavier 3.0L motors. Even the Speed-is-King Allison bass and "sport" boats prohibit 3.0L OBs on their longer boats:
http://www.allisonboats.com/bass_boats/xb2002_index.php
http://www.allisonboats.com/sportboats/xs2003_grandsport_index.php

I've used this under-440-lb, no-3.0L rule-of-thumb when considering powering my own shorter Donzi, also. The Donzi 16 Classic may be more ocean-worthy with deeper Vee and more freeboard, but 16.5' is still just that.

Thus, in using the Promax with that wonderful 4" BMS hydraulic jackplate (37 lbs on the transom), I feel indeed it is unwise to add more weight onto the transom. Already, the water-line when floating in neutral has moved up nearly 3" from the position of the direct-transom mounted Johnson 150 V6. Backing up with 2 or 3 passengers (two lightweight adults, myself middle-weight), a little gear and full tanks wets the splash well with an inch or so of water, nearest the transom especially. Fortunately, the water runs right out the scupper on plane. I don't wish to test any more weight back there.

Refer to Post #4 on Page #1 of this thread by another friendly gentleman, Tom regarding adding too much Black Max weight onto the transom in the 1970s. (Tom, I hope you are doing well. Are you out there?)

As for me, I want it all -- to have my cake and eat it too: as much HP, acceleration, speed and handling as possible, reasonably-light weight, decent efficiency, useful small-boat utility and comfort, relatively-smoke-free operation, PWC ease of use but without the restrictions, form following function, tolerable noise level, you name it. A good, friendly, high-performance fun platform for up to four people. A wife who finally admits 100% it indeed was time to give up the PWC sport which I turned her on to back in 1990 that she ended up loving perhaps more than I.

You only live once.

-Andy

BUIZILLA

08-28-2009, 10:16 PM

you'll do more damage to the transom towing with a tilted up 150 than a lowered 225... there was a 175XS for sale on S&F recently... plug and play

AndyDiSario

08-28-2009, 11:32 PM

fasttrucker,

The 4" BMS HD hydraulic jackplate with gauge costs $979 plus $31 shipping. I originally wasn't going to spend this much. I had decided I needed to be able to lift the motor from inside the boat in the water (not just set its height easily on the trailer to guess on a "sweet spot" for the day). Due to the shallow water common here, many times in the past we've dragged the Waverunner out of accidentally entering shallow water. So, the BMS Versajac was my first choice with capability to adjust in the water with a wrench, and later one day convert it to auto hydraulic operation. Then, digging into my soul, two things convinced me to change my mind and go for the hydraulic unit initially.

1. We sold our premium, 3-seater 4-stroke Waverunner FX160 HO Cruiser for this boat -- the end of an era; stop being cheap. As long as my boat can handle it, hydraulic operation and a gauge are what I really wanted all along.

2. The real clincher: The manual BMS Versajac puts virtually the same weight on the transom as the hydraulic unit! You see, because the hydrualic one locates its oil tank and pump remotely down in the hull. It's far-different from the locally-familiar T-H Marine unit that way with all its integrated components tidily placed on, but weighing down the transom; the BMS is a better design for our little boat.

http://www.bobsmachine.com/

The transom reinforcement was done down at a specialty metal shop Steve works with in Ft. Laud, for only a few hundred dollars, including georgous powder-coating. (This is a nit, but even the white powder-coat color matches the Donzi's stripe and upholstery -- something my color-matching-theme fan of a wife appreciates ;-) Either way, well worth every penny. Being an old mechanic myself many, many years ago, I appreciate good custom metal-work and design; this is an elegant work of art.

As far as your crossroads, I sure hope it works out for you.

Pictures of the boat coming. Fern is the photo-bug in the family; I deal with photos sometimes, but am not persistent nor consistent with 'em. As all of you can relate to, it's motorsports that are my passion in life...

-Andy

AndyDiSario

08-28-2009, 11:35 PM

Dredgeking

08-29-2009, 02:13 AM

Dredgeking,

Yes, as with garage space, there is no such thing as too much HP. However, weight is another matter. (If you're awake at all by now with all these latest and initial weight-watching appends in this thread, that 2nd sentence is unnecessary.)

Good luck,
Andy
561-479-0578

Let me have a little fun with this thread. If not the 16, then I'll try and find a 14 to mount a 350 onto. :wink: Or how about the 22 OB with twin 350's and NOS? Now that may be a something better to pursue.

Greg Guimond

08-29-2009, 07:42 AM

From the weedeater bible...........

"what else do we judge when it comes to outboards? Running quality, for one. In this category, Evinrude wins. The E-Tec’s quiet idle coupled with its open exhaust sound at full speed is a great combination. We really enjoyed the E-Tec’s "quiet-as-a-whisper" idle, and the recorded numbers bore that out; the Evinrude scored best in both decibel readings whether the meter was at the transom or in the operator’s lap. All three engines scored about the same at midrange cruise. At the transom while at cruise speeds, the Yamaha was loudest by far on the db (A) scale, but it didn’t sound that way to our ears. While it recorded 106 decibels at the transom, within one of the Merc, the Evinrude sounded the meanest and the most pleasing to the ear."

Greg Guimond

08-29-2009, 09:12 AM

Or a really trick set-up......who needs trim anyway!

Merc 200 XS 2006 Optimax. Serial #1E001791
Offshore Short shaft 15" with heavy duty transom bracket.
Has Sportmaster gearcase with the fat 1.25" propshaft.
Compression is 130 psi on all six cylinders.
Motor has low hours.
Brand new water pump and spark plugs.
Motor still has warranty until 12-31-2010.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this motor. (minor scratches here and there)
This is truely a turn key motor. Bolt on and go.
INCLUDED ITEMS:
8 pin wire harness with key switch
new 2.5 gallon oil tank
hub adapter for a merc prop
boat mounted hydraulic trim pump with hoses.
Motor stand in the photos is NOT included (its not mine).

Greg Guimond

08-29-2009, 09:14 AM

You could always sell your X to Poodle, then he would have twin eggbeaters to put on the back of his 96 with the bad transom :shocking:

fasttrucker

08-29-2009, 08:01 PM

AndyDiSario

09-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Missed It By That -> <- Much

AndyDiSario

09-03-2009, 12:23 AM

Missed It By That -> <- Much

AndyDiSario

09-03-2009, 12:26 PM

fasttrucker

09-03-2009, 12:51 PM

fasttrucker,

How's your project going? If, as I'm doing with my Promax 225X motor (due only to non-PWC-like OB noise in my case), you decide to bail and try again...

There is a real-sweet sounding 1976 Donzi Classic 16 OB with 200 Mariner for sale up in Mass. It's owned by one heck of a friendly guy, Michael who from what I've learned over the phone, takes a lot of pride in his boats and equipment. Should you wish Michael's contact information, just give me a holler.

Andy
561-479-0578
DiSario@bellsouth.net
Oh-No,Iam Keeping the sweet 16.:shades:I took the donzi to "The Outboard Shop".I posted that they found the problem.It was not the top mounts but the clam shell assembly.It connects to the steering.They got the power head off and took off the head gasket off and replaced it.The motor checks out fine.The issue of getting the parts?If he cant get them.He can cut out the clam shell assembly out of the parts motor.Ive not gotten it back yet.So this donzi project may take me a year or two to finsh it. I dont have to buy a new motor and Iam re-doing a used trl.The fiberglass shop and repainting is next.

fasttrucker

09-03-2009, 12:55 PM

Your donzi is nice.I see trim tabs and a swim platform did you install these?

AndyDiSario

09-03-2009, 02:15 PM

FYI: Price of immaculate Promax 225X reduced to $6495. Ref. Post #172

fasttrucker,

Thanks, I love this boat so far. It is my pride and joy, excepting the motor-volume issue. I won't stop until my wife loves it as much as do I, and finally admits it was every bit worthwhile replacing my-once and her-still beloved Waverunner.

The Donzi came from its prior, NJ owner with the trim tabs. Other than topping up the fluid, I've had to do nothing to 'em! I'd never driven a boat with tabs before, so I added a small dash label to remind myself how they work. I'm so forgetful! They do work well, and are handy for unbalanced loads in this small narrow boat, however, I do not use them much.

In contrast, the lift plate as you've likely read, after much research, I pushed hard for (against my mechanic's advice first in concept, then in manufacturer). I'd originally intended to just add a jackplate myself after the boat was rigged, asking for "extra rigging," as suggested by Greg. Eventually, after much waiting, persuasion and research, I had the BMS 4" hydraulic lift plate and its gauge installed from the get-go. These are flat-out wonderful!

The swim platform and its all-critical ladder were my initial #1 pre-req: It had to be feasible before buying a Donzi Classic. None of my local Donzi buddies have them (yet) and I fully consider no ladder to be a show-stopper. My opinion is severe here. Though I am eternally grateful Donzis and similar boats exist, I see a fatal flaw on many. Sorry, but I do not believe the Coast Guard should permit boats to be produced without a safe way to climb back in the boat from deep water, with zero planning or setup required. The manufacturer should have been responsible, mandated by the law.

You go out alone, you fall in (or your anxious kid suddenly jumps in without your permission as was the very-stressful case that happened to two different buddies -- once way out in the ocean!), you need a safe way to re-enter the boat. No questions asked. No pre-installation of a ladder (stored from the cabin or wherever) before entering the water in advance required.

We added or improved ladders on all three of our powerboats --Waverunner included, years before selling it.

In the case of the Waverunner, I was too big (and not well enough at the time) to fit down into the small hull's stern in order to install the internal ladder reinforment wedges and 5200 the holes, below the waterline. Believe it or not, Fern volunteered to do that part! I have a picture of her down in that hull, with only butt and legs sticking out the top, though for some reason, she does not enjoy this photo! I took the photo for my buddy, Leo who was surprised years earlier to find a woman helping me work on her car. "Heh, it's my car!" was her response. Good thing for digital cameras, because in the old days the photo lab would have had the police knocking down my door because the Waverunner photo looks fully like someone was murdered and shoved down into my little boat!

I would not have bought the Donzi if some sort of ladder were not feasible. It was my first and foremost project. If I failed, I planned to tow the boat to a Ft. Laud. yacht fitter, open my bank account and beg if necessary for them to work on my dinghie to have something custom made. If that failed also after repeated attempts, I'd have sold the boat.

Fortunately, that was not necessary, as I was able to do 98% of the work myself, for little money too. I tried, then returned all sorts of possibilities, and ate a little shipping costs where necessary. Garelick was a close 2nd choice and is similar to this AFI small-outboard platform. I had a local welder heat and bend the railing to conform to the transom, then I drilled, 5200'ed and installed it myself with SS through-bolts and internal SS washers wherever possible (otherwise, I used heavy SS self-tapping screws where no interior access was feasible). I was generous with the 5200. Then, I chose a swing-down, telescoping three-step ladder. Fern, my guests and I love the thing.

It's good and hot here about 9 months a year. Everyone wants to get in the water and swim.

After installing this ladder to the Donzi, I removed the Stingray's narrow-width two-step ladder to which I had added a goofy, plastic additional step (making three) from the boat's higher, built-in swim platform. I filled the factory holes and started over, installing a 4-step version of this wonderful swing-down, telescoping ladder. Two plus one steps were never quite enough anyway.

The Donzi transom reinforcement was another of my initial requests, but I did not stick to my guns on that one. I was originally told the aluminum bolt-hole spanning reinforcment plates would suffice for strength and these were commonly used. Remember I am new to this -- first time.

After first rigging with Mr. Promax, it was determined better reinforcement was indeed necessary, so off came the motor again, and Steve got made and installed the most-beautiful custom metal-work reinforcement I've ever seen. I'm thrilled with the end result there. Bravo!

You may have surmised by now that yes, I confess to being a died-in-the-wool performance junkee, but even before that, safety is first.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

09-03-2009, 02:22 PM

fasttrucker,
I am glad to hear you have a plan and path to getting your Classic back on the water one day. Good luck! Keep us appraised.
Regards,
Andy

fasttrucker

09-03-2009, 02:59 PM

fasttrucker,
I am glad to hear you have a plan and path to getting your Classic back on the water one day. Good luck! Keep us appraised.
Regards,
Andy
Thanks,I can continue to use her untill the fiberglass shop gets her.I wanted to get the outboard issues resolved first.I felt that the hard pulling to the right had to stop.For safety. I might install a hdy.or a double cable steering.Iam waiting to see how she steers after they put in the new clam shell asmbly.Iam going to add a swim ladder like you did but,Iam starting to Running low on cash.Need to sell my 22zx.Did you buy your donzi from frank in nj?

AndyDiSario

09-04-2009, 10:00 AM

Dredgeking,

For my boat, I've followed the same "Warning" Allison posts for its faster, longer high-speed bass and "sport" boats: 440 lbs max., no 3.0 liter motors. http://allisonboats.com/

In my simple mind, this aligns with the good advice of those in the know about out Classic 16 OBs. (See original posts to this thread.) I am appreciative to these folks.

Now to play devil's advocate, though. (It's your money.) I spoke with "Wildman" Randy of http://liberatorfl.tripod.com/
This friendly fella is over-the-top, in a good way, my opinion. He mounted a Promax 225X like mine onto a Paradise F13! I owned an F13 once, briefly, but cannot imagine that. Randy told me he'd rig a Promax 300 on my boat. No thanks; I cannot imagine the boat being usable to us that way. Though impressed, I left our conversation feeling Randy is not callled "Wildman" for nuthin'.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

09-04-2009, 10:02 AM

(deleted as redundant)

AndyDiSario

09-04-2009, 10:26 AM

>Did you buy your donzi from frank in nj?

No, the Donzi came from a friendly fella, Glen, who restored the boat for his wife as her dream-boat, living on an Intracoastal canal, in Tom's River, NJ. Glen kept the boat period-correct; I looked at that as a good starting point (platform), as I'm more of a performance-junkee with the Donzi.

It is my impression Glen's wife realized how much work it is to hook up the boat from the garage, plan, tow to the ramp, launch, park, and attempt to enjoy the boat for the day, then retrieve, clean and park. To that I add the usual maintenance work. My impression is perhaps she chooses more classically-feminine pursuits.

Same thing occured to us when I offered to keep the Waverunner for Fern.

I'm a FL boy now, but 35 years ago, I lived with family when really a boy in northern NJ. We had relatives from Tom's River also. Small world.

Glen sold the boat reasonably to me, as he needed the garage space for faster projects. Glen is into racing "NJ Skiffs," flat-hull 16' race boats with mid-mounted big-block Chevy for power, exhaust stacks straight up, and two bucket seats behind the motor! My kinda guy. Did real well racing it.

Like myself, Glen is a fellow Corvette enthusiast too, earily similar in model choices to my own Corvettes I've owned. Similar generations. Same manual transmissions, similar color choices and more. Key diff: Glen is a coupe guy; I was a coupe dreamer as a boy in NJ. Now, with FL in mind, I stick with roadsters.

As I said, small world.

-Andy

RPD

09-07-2009, 02:45 PM

WOW .... I just read this whole thread that's been going on for a year ... I haven't been on the registry in a couple years because no one was interested in OBs back then, only John B was on the site... Greg was just getting his at that time, I think, .... we have communicated a couple times by email ....
I have had my 16OB for 19 yrs and I absolutely love it as much today as I did 19 yrs ago... I'm the third owner, it was originally built for Larry Hollis in central Florida ... I repowered it a few years ago (maybe 8) with a Yamaha Vmax 150 ... I considered the 175 Vmax but they stopped making it about the time I was repowering and, anyway, in those days I wanted to be sure I remained on the power curve for skiing ....
Now days, most of my Donzi use is at night, or just before dark, going out to dinner, etc, .... don't have a skiing partner ....
Anyway, here is some insight .... the 150 with the prop I have is incredible on acceleration ... I cannot hold onto a wide open hole-shot .... top end is in the low 50s .... BUT, one rarely runs top end and, for me, it's usually the water conditions that limit speed.... the Donzi is a wonderful boat in a light chop, which is what I usually am dealing with ... last Tuesday night, I was coming back from dinner, running in the mid 40s in one to one and a half foot chop, thinking, there's not another 16 footer in the world that could run that speed in that water with as little drama as the Donzi ... (but I'm preaching to the choir) .... I have come across the bay with so much air time that the motor overheated, all the while feeling in control ...
the Vmax is about 445 lbs and I wouldn't want any more weight on the transom, but it handles that OK .... it's as low as I would want it, not worried so much about the stern wave when dropping off plane, that's predictable, rather what about if I had engine problems in the bay with, say, a two foot chop? .... I did have the hole for the control cables closed up and rerouted through the forward end of the motor well through a rigging tube as they do on most modern boats .... thus the motor well is completely sealed .... I have thought of having this motor converted to the 175 now that I'm not skiing but probably won't ...
My first experience with a Donzi 16 was in 1965 ... it had a 165 hp straight 6 inboard driving through an Eaton outdrive, trim control was by wrench while on the trailer .... since that 165 was rated at the motor, and my 150 is rated at the prop, I figure it's about comparable .... the first 16OB I ever saw was in an OMC (I've forgotten whether it was Johnson or Evinrude) brochure in the early 70's, it was pulled up on the beach with the motor tilted up .... looked real good!
I, too, wanted to get my Donzi to go faster and faster .... then I realized that's not it's forte .... the Donzi is designed to go very fast in all water conditions with safety, stability and control, and thus faster on average than many other boats that boast a higher "top" speed which they can only reach in glassy calm conditions .... it's the overall balance that makes a classic Donzi a Donzi !

fasttrucker

09-07-2009, 02:50 PM

Ive only had it out one day since I bought it and I love it.Hope to get it back for next weekend!

AndyDiSario

09-08-2009, 10:01 AM

RPD,

It's a pleasure meeting you, another fellow Classic OB - loving Floridian! Feel free to look us up sometime, come visit, c'mon over for dinner and/or some boating, etc.

I'm hooked on this little boat so far. It's so much better than our Waverunner in every way but one (noise of the Promax)! Fern and I took out our Stingray (the floating mini-van) yesterday; aside from enjoying that boat to meet friends out on the water, my main purpose was to learn from "Follow the Sun" as a testbed, stethosope in hand while Fern drove. Q1: What can I do to copy the Stingray's (somewhat-)quieter Force 120, so we can keep the Promax on the Donzi? The Donzi is my first-love in vehicles these days.

I ended up deciding to work on quieting down the Force also!

Andy DiSario
DiSario@bellsouth.net
561-479-0578
11351 Lake Tree Ct.
Boca Raton, FL 33498

P.S to fasttrucker: Keep at it, and let us know how you're doing.

RPD

09-10-2009, 05:12 PM

Andy:

Thanks for the invitation .... but since I'm about 650 miles away from you, as far as possible while staying in Fla, it probably won't be anytime soon.

Took my Donzi out to dinner last night, light chop, beautiful evening, Navy out on the bay practicing helicopter landings.... I was the only boat in the anchorage by Hooter's (I'm not a Hooter's fan but they have the best anchorage and they are faster and cheaper than the others there) ...

I've been thinking of your noise problem and have some ideas, not that they are necessarily good.... I'll put my thoughts together and post them soon.

Cheers,

Bob

Greg Guimond

09-10-2009, 05:20 PM

RPD,

19 years is a long time and a lot of fun! The eggbeaters are coming out of the woodwork now........! I "jacketed" up and ripped down into the East River from CT shore over Labor Day. Grizz's Turbo prop provides a lot of comfort in the handling department when you need to work though Hell Gate with a point and jump approach :eek:

AndyDiSario

09-10-2009, 09:53 PM

Well guys,

I've done some research and searched my soul. I'll never own another motor quite so fine, with so much power-to-weight as the Promax 225X. "You sure you want to sell this thing, Andy?" I ask myself.

I was told the motor cannot be silenced by those in the know (Mercury Marine Tech Support, Merc. Racing, my mechanic, local Merc. dealers, etc).

Merc. Marine Racing indicated the noise's root cause as the air intake plenum (after that, I assume the motor's mechanical racket itself), and indeed it appears as so. I try to look at the bright side: At least there could never be a worn, loose valvetrain with sticky or solid lifters in there!

Greg suggested Dynamat, I assume on the inside cowl -- a fine idea which can very-well be helpful. That said, my stethoscope did not indicate the non-insulated plastic cowling was the source of noise entering the cockpit.

Instead, noise exits the cowling where air enters. A good buddy, and very-knowledgable boater, Stuart suggested what had only once just crossed my mind. Modify the intake path through the cowling.

My current plans are to first try everything practical to bring the Promax down to acceptable noise levels: Use a grommet and insulate the rigging where it currently enters the pan wide open, thereby blasting noise straight forward. Plug the side-mounted, forward-facing air intakes which work like megaphones towards the cockpit. Instead, vent the same amount or more air through the upper rear of the cowl, entering into the same large, internal baffle. Direct the noise rearward. Mercury Racing has already done this to an extent, by fitting small, low-mounted factory slits venting into the rear of he cowl. If need be, I'll extend the new rear ports further back slightly with PVC tubing in order to move the noise further rearward.

Afterwards, if the stethoscope proves noise now exits through the unlined, plastic cowl, apply Dynamat to the inner cowl front and sides.

Maybe Dynamat the air plenum itself also.

Anyone ever find success installing an air filter or flame arrestor on an outboard? This can only help -- quiet noise, and also protect the throttle body and air plenum, just in case something is accidentally sucked into the motor. It surprises me outboards apparently use no real air filter nor flame arrestor, such as do all other vehichles on which I've worked. Only an open Cover Assemby protects the Throttle Body and Air Plenum on the Promax 225X. Likewise, the Force 120 uses only covers on its carburetors. I'm wondering if a free-flowing K&N marine flame arrestor could not be a worthwhile addition somehow, assuming clearance can be found, such as: http://www.knfilters.com/marine/boats.htm

Still open to suggestions as to quieting the mighty, roaring Promax.

Andy

-After recent years wondering what all the squawking is about over Feminist Rights ("We all can vote. We all can work. Enough already -- Viva la Difference!" I say), it has finally dawned on me there exists an equal-female-rights topic which I strongly agree. Women should have the *Exact Same Rights* as men to go anywhere we can with our shirts off!- (It's hot here. I stay cooler and save energy by choosing to wear a shirt only if necessary.)

Greg Guimond

09-11-2009, 09:38 AM

Be sure in your quest you don't cook the motor .............

AndyDiSario

09-11-2009, 10:28 AM

Okiedokie, buddy.

A good point too, because the coolant temperature sensor, currently attached to the top of the starboard cylinder head, under the plastic Cover Assembly is failing. It's a new sensor Steve attached with an adhesive similar to Marine-Tex, I'm told. It worked only briefly. A disappointment to me, and the only remaining problem of several minor, but annoying gauge issues which I haven't fixed directly (myself). I will need to fix this, given the Promax stays.

Q1: Greg, do you have a coolant temperature sensor?

Q2: If so, what sensor do you use, where and how is it attached to your Promax 225X?

I do rely religiously on the water pressure gauge, which as pointed out (by you, or another helpful fella) many posts back, indeed is the most-important gauge. With a thermostat now on the motor, we can no longer verify coolant is peeing out 100% of the time, and go back there to feel its temperature anytime, as before.

That being said, as far as airflow, it is one of my many endeavors in life. Just this AM, I was saying to Fern the worse garage I ever worked in was huge, had only one single-car entry and one exit door. You were supposed to attached a single, round exhaust outlet hose to the car exhaust in order to run and tune the car in the garage -- this being back in the 1970s with many 1960s cars on the road and no emissions controls! (To this day, FL gave up requiring or inspecting for emissions controls, even on newer cars.) Anyone see what's wrong with this picture? What do you do about: Dual exhaust? Rectangular tailpipes? Exhaust leaks? Hated that shop (for other reasons too). Felt like I was stuck in the middle of a hot, muggy, polluted cave. Working in two garages concurrently at the time (then an eager 19-year-old), I quit the stagnant one and returned instead full-time to the one with far-better airflow.

I've strived to maintain and improve airflow in my own house garages, attic, vehicles, you name it. Even inside, in the winter when we open up the house, once again airflow dominates. Every door has a holder to keep it open and let the wind rip through.

And you wanna talk of our love of convertibles?

Back to boats. I once drilled large holes in the hull sides of my little, sit-down Jet-Ski, about a foot or so above the water-line. Routed interior plumbing all the way up, then all the way down inside the hull, to let plenty of air in, but never more than a cup-full of sea-water in, which ran right back out onto the footwells. Even when that little boat capsized (once in a while), less than a pint of sea-water entered the hull, eventually being sucked out by bilge pump. All this to improve airflow, with K&N installed onto the carb, if I recall correctly. Did it work? Yes, but performance increase was negligible at best -- I still couldn't keep up with those dang Sea-Doo's of the era.

Come to think of it, those air-inlet holes sure increased motor-noise level too, exiting right out the hull sides, a few feet from our ears.

Maybe we're on to something with a way to quiet the Promax...

Back off the water now, take a look at the vents in the hood of my 1965 Corvette Sting Ray if you wish, many posts back. They were real, to which I added stock interior rain grooves, letting air in, but keeping water out of the carb. I loved that relatvely-rare hood, even though the far-more-popular and aggressive Stinger fake-scoop hood often emulated from the big-block 1967 Sting Ray always looked cobbled to my eye, and worse yet, is non-functional(!)

Indeed, airflow can be considered one of my middle names. Just ask my wife.

-Andy

AndyDiSario

09-11-2009, 11:20 AM

You picked a hot (well, cool) topic.

I've added exhaust fans to all bathrooms, strategically placed near the shower, where we try to limit hot, humid air added to our rooms ... and placed near that other necessary bathroom device too. They're switched on with point-of-use, spring-wound timers. (Set it and forget it.) The timers are labeled "Exhaust Fan," because our guests visiting from the North incorrectly assume the timer switches are for bathroom heat lamps (useless here, refuse to have any). Each fan vents into the attic. I bought the most-powerful ones available from Home Depot. The attic vents well into the outside air. Just replaced about a dozen roof/attic soffit vents, in fact.

The main garage vents into the attic too. Garages have wall fans and plenty of ventilation.

There's a ceiling fan in every room now, too.

I once refused to buy our first house in 1986 because, standing in a model home, I asked for a window in my garage, just as was shown in the brochure. "How much for this option -- a window in the garage?" I asked. "You cannot get a window in the garage," was the answer. "It's right here in the brochure," I pointed out. "That's an artist's rendering," was the response. "Let's go," I said to Fern.

Airflow is crucial.

Andy

AndyDiSario

09-11-2009, 11:40 AM

Come to think of it...

Those hood vents on the Sting Ray (the car, not the boat) let out the most amazing, gorgeous, deep intake roar when you stuck your foot in it to open up the Holley 4-barrel. Every motorhead who drove or rode in the car noticed it. So unusual, as compared to modern cars!

Once I swapped out its sidepipes and converted to dual exhaust with Flowmaster mufflers, that 350 Chevy's little roar was never objectionable. In that case, it was wonderful, affectionately drawing myself and motor-buddies to the car.

But the root cause of the intake acoustics emanating into the cockpit remains the same.

-Andy

RPD

09-12-2009, 08:46 AM

Well, Andy, it seems you're on to the same ideas I was going to mention ....

It is unlikely to be mechanical noise as the block, crank etc are basically the same as stock, except maybe forged crank, pistons, etc ... so more likely it's intake noise or simply a megaphone effect as you said ....

The housing for the midsection of the motor is probably identical to the recreational motor, it makes no sense that they would have a special casting for this .... so see if you can find a cowling for a recreational Mercury from about the same year and see if it fits ... if it does, try to borrow it for a weekend to see if it helps with the noise .... that should give you some direction ... you could then buy one or modify your current cowling ...

bill44

09-12-2009, 09:34 AM

Andy rather than speeding a ton of money on the engine, ( I think that you're trying to reinvent the wheel) why don't you invest in a really good "ipod" for your wife to use while you are out boating? This might save you some money and just maybe your wife might appreciate it ( the "ipod" I mean)
Just a thought.
Bailey

fasttrucker

09-12-2009, 01:56 PM

I think you should just live with the sound.My old 200hp 1979 johnson crossflow has over the water exhaust.Its loud but the sound is behind the boat, as you go.This is my second boat and I plan to keep it as my second boat,like you.So,unless you have a lot of cash to buy a different motor,I would stop thinking about it.When I come down to fla this x-mass thru new years we should run out together.Iam planing a Donzi Run.

horsepower ranch

11-15-2009, 03:31 PM

Well guys,
I've done some research and searched my soul. I'll never own another motor quite so fine, with so much power-to-weight as the Promax 225X. "You sure you want to sell this thing, Andy?" I ask myself.
I was told the motor cannot be silenced by those in the know (Mercury Marine Tech Support, Merc. Racing, my mechanic, local Merc. dealers, etc).
Merc. Marine Racing indicated the noise's root cause as the air intake plenum (after that, I assume the motor's mechanical racket itself), and indeed it appears as so. I try to look at the bright side: At least there could never be a worn, loose valvetrain with sticky or solid lifters in there!
Greg suggested Dynamat, I assume on the inside cowl -- a fine idea which can very-well be helpful. That said, my stethoscope did not indicate the non-insulated plastic cowling was the source of noise entering the cockpit.
Instead, noise exits the cowling where air enters. A good buddy, and very-knowledgable boater, Stuart suggested what had only once just crossed my mind. Modify the intake path through the cowling.
My current plans are to first try everything practical to bring the Promax down to acceptable noise levels: Use a grommet and insulate the rigging where it currently enters the pan wide open, thereby blasting noise straight forward. Plug the side-mounted, forward-facing air intakes which work like megaphones towards the cockpit. Instead, vent the same amount or more air through the upper rear of the cowl, entering into the same large, internal baffle. Direct the noise rearward. Mercury Racing has already done this to an extent, by fitting small, low-mounted factory slits venting into the rear of he cowl. If need be, I'll extend the new rear ports further back slightly with PVC tubing in order to move the noise further rearward.
Afterwards, if the stethoscope proves noise now exits through the unlined, plastic cowl, apply Dynamat to the inner cowl front and sides.
Maybe Dynamat the air plenum itself also.
Anyone ever find success installing an air filter or flame arrestor on an outboard? This can only help -- quiet noise, and also protect the throttle body and air plenum, just in case something is accidentally sucked into the motor. It surprises me outboards apparently use no real air filter nor flame arrestor, such as do all other vehichles on which I've worked. Only an open Cover Assemby protects the Throttle Body and Air Plenum on the Promax 225X. Likewise, the Force 120 uses only covers on its carburetors. I'm wondering if a free-flowing K&N marine flame arrestor could not be a worthwhile addition somehow, assuming clearance can be found, such as: http://www.knfilters.com/marine/boats.htm
Still open to suggestions as to quieting the mighty, roaring Promax.
Andy
-After recent years wondering what all the squawking is about over Feminist Rights ("We all can vote. We all can work. Enough already -- Viva la Difference!" I say), it has finally dawned on me there exists an equal-female-rights topic which I strongly agree. Women should have the *Exact Same Rights* as men to go anywhere we can with our shirts off!- (It's hot here. I stay cooler and save energy by choosing to wear a shirt only if necessary.)
Andy-
What is the latest on your motor? I recently bought a 16OB and will use it in the keys. I am probably going to put a 1995 175 Mariner I already have on it. Your thread has been very helpful.
Bill

RPD

11-15-2009, 08:04 PM

Horsepower ranch, you'll love your baby 16 ob ..... As for your question, anything over 150 hp is ok and obviously, the more the faster .... I get 56-57 with a stock 150 and prop not optimized for top speed, fasttrucker gets 60+ from 200 and whitenblu gets 70+ from 240 hp (from a modified 150) ....

Andy, where have you been? What kind of numbers have you turned in?

fasttrucker

11-16-2009, 10:34 AM

I havent heard from andy in awile,I heard a rumor that the mad-dog guy is setting up a 16-outboard to go 80+,but hes gone from this site.

Greg Guimond

11-16-2009, 07:45 PM

Donzi 16's don't go 80 :wink:

fasttrucker

11-17-2009, 12:38 PM

Donzi 16's don't go 80 :wink:
I know of some with sterndrive that go over 80.So a outboard could also,put a 300xs on it and find out!

Greg Guimond

12-13-2009, 06:20 AM

Trucker, who has a 16 that goes over 80 ?

fasttrucker

12-13-2009, 10:32 AM

Iam not sure.Is geo still here he might know.Maybe doc dan knows. we cant ask madpoodle now.There was a guy in del. that used to go to the poker runs and the hometown rally.he had a really cool high hp 16.Ill post it on performance section at the other donzi site,maybe we will find out.There was talk............

AndyDiSario

12-19-2009, 12:25 PM

Hi guys,

Please pardon it has taken me so long to respond. Been busy with other tasks, enjoyed the So. FL boat parade (in Broward) aboard our friend's Hatteras, plus suffering flu symptoms at present.

With the Johnson 150 HP motor on my Donzi 16 OB, I saw absolute top-speed of 48 mph GPS in ideal conditions. It took everything that motor had to approach this speed.

With the Promax 225X, it is easily approaching 60 mph now. However, the motor is not prop'ed correctly yet. It has only a 21 pitch 3-blade SS prop on it now, borrowed from my mechanic buddy. Eventually, I will prop it in the 25 pitch range.

I read somewhere the Mercury Racing Promax 225X really makes closer to 240 HP, so it has been banned from 225 racing classes. I believe it. This motor really flies for its power-to-weight ratio. Cool.

I have a buddy (a marine patrol officer, no less) who owns a Hydrostream sportboat that can reach 85 mph in perfect conditions, with no passengers! Though most of the Intracoastal where we ride is Resume Normal Safe Operation, we have witnessed him doing 78 mph GPS in a 25 mph zone of the Intracoastal! Wow. I could not keep up with him then. Nice, huh? Still, it blows me away the difference in quality and ride between the Hydrostream vs. the Donzi. Also, the Hydrostream is not ocean worthy. It (the Hydrostream) even leaks a little, taking in water. Yech. The Donzi is very ocean-worthy, on all but the windiest, stormy days. We feel the ocean ... she is such a beautiful creature. No boat I will own will be unfit for decent days in the ocean. The Donzi rides so well. Even my galvanized trailer is vastly superior to his painted one.

I have made major strides in quieting down this noisy Promax 225X. I have added many, many coats of Quiet Car, Quiet Coat to the inside of the cowling, even the lower cowling pan. The motor has gained a little weight, consequently. Also, once I read the Quiet Coat product is fire-proof, I went ahead and applied coats right onto the root cause of the noise -- the intake plenum.

Then, I reengineered the intake tract. My Promax 225X no longer breathes through air inlets pointed straight at the cockpit like megaphones, which emanated a near-deafening roar. I measured the surface area of the forward-facing intake scoops, plugged these up (temporarilly at present), and drilled twice as much surface area into the rear of the cowling, which uses the exact same interior diverter pan to allow air to enter, but water to flow down and out. There were already small vents there, however now there are many.

The motor now breathes through the rear of the cowling, just like my old Force 120 engine on my Stingray. What a difference!

We did see progress in quieting it down. One more test ride, and I will be ready to pull the cowling, mask it off, and drop off the cowling at a buddy's shop to fiberglass over the stock intack scoops, then paint them black. I've done this sort of work myself before, however my young buddy and his partner have a shop, and do it better still. I'm sure they will give me a good deal. After that, I hope to add flame ornaments to the thing also, just for grins.

I expect to see high-60 mph in ideal conditions, when the boat is propped correctly. I did add a hydraulic lift plate, so that I can put the motor down for great ocean hook-up and hole-shot, then lift it up for an extra 6-7 free mph in calm water, or should I find myself in shallow water.
This lift plate is better than sliced bread! (Remember, I'm an old PWC guy, now converted. We do accidentally end up in shallow So. FL water more often than I'd care to admit.)

I love this boat. My wife, Fern calls it a "White knuckle ride." I call it an "E-ticket ride." There are small emblems added to the cockpit as such. It's official name now (on port, starboard and stern) is "Damned Donzi," named after Aronow's awesome little race boats of similar hull design that eventually kicked the butt of Bertram's much-larger craft in offshore ocean races of the 1960s.

This Donzi indeed is a handful to drive fast, keeping me very busy. I expect I will need to address chine walking better in the future. It keeps me so busy and occupied to extract maximum performance from it. Fun stuff, mainly, though I must be careful not to scare my wife silly. Next time I take it out for performance testing, I expect to exclude her, at least once, for this reason.

Good luck to all of you. This beautiful little boat is my first (vehicle) love now. More so than my Stingray bowrider (the floating minivan I call it). More so than my motorcycles. More so than my Corvette convertible.

To me, the Donzi is a Corvette for the water.

Life is good.

Regards,
Andy
"There is no such thing as too much horsepower, or too much garage space."

fasttrucker

12-19-2009, 02:29 PM

Andy,have you checked out my new to me lavy craft tunnel boat? The thread is on "talk about other boats section" You and I are brothers we both own 16 donzi outboards and now we both own 225 efi promax motors!Iam waiting on new pictures of this project,I dont have any pictures of the pro-max yet.My lavy is estimated to go low 80,s on the gps.Iam picking it up 12/26/2009.

AndyDiSario

12-19-2009, 06:55 PM

Fasttrucker,

What cool boats you own and mastermind!

You have struck a chord. Thank you so much for mentioning me as a brother. It means world's more to me than you could possilby imagine. We lost my only brother, Bob, my best man, I was his best man, my best friend of 45 years to cancer four years ago. I, our family and even his old buddies yearn for him daily.

Anyway, that Lavy craft tunnel boat looks simply awesome! Thanks to Greg's lead, I bought my Promax 225X from a fella in St. Petersburg who was seriously into tunnel boats and Mercury racing power.

Where do you live? Are you a southerner also?

Andy DiSario
11351 Lake Tree Ct.
Boca Raton, FL 33498
DiSario@bellsouth.net
561-479-0578

Greg Guimond

12-19-2009, 07:59 PM

Andy,
Post up a couple of pictures with that re-worked cowl for the 225x. Sounds like the approach worked nicely!

AndyDiSario

12-19-2009, 08:57 PM

Okiedokie, however let me finish it first. The primitive plugs I installed in the stock air inlets (just pieces of wood) are currently only duct-taped in place. It does seem to work, however is quite ugly at present.

When I am done, I want it sexy and beautiful, just like the remainder of the boat.

Flu and cooler weather have us off the water this weekend, plus with boating-unfriendly family coming soon for Christmas, it will be a coupla weeks before I can do the final test, then get the cowling finished by our buddy.

Lastly will be those flame decals.

For now, just picture closed-cell foam sealing the open rigging as I tried, but could not find a standard grommet and rigging tube to seal up the Promax 225X. Plus, there are duct-taped stock air inlets, about 30 round holes drilled neatly in the cowling rear, and maybe 5-10 pouds of Quiet Coat on the inside.

As you can imagine, it ain't very pretty at present, just functional.

-Andy

Just Say N20

12-19-2009, 09:41 PM

Trucker, who has a 16 that goes over 80 ?

Not to steal his thunder, but a new board member Fluffy Foo-Foo (I think) bought that amazing, supercharged 16. It was posted that the previous owner hit 92 mph with it.

Greg Guimond

12-19-2009, 10:31 PM

Check the thread .........

Long winter....just wonderin'...

AndyDiSario

12-20-2009, 04:02 PM

OK,

How in the world does he keep it in the water? How does he keep it from chine walking? Inquiring minds need to know.

Is it the increased weight of the I/O (sterndrive) configuration that prevents chine walking? My marine mechanic buddy calls this phenomenon "rolling," but it sure feels like chine walking to me. If weight is the issue, I was thinking about adding ballast tanks I could fill on demand to my own boat when necessary.

With PWC, sponsons solved the problem of chine walking, which initially occurred at just 50 mph on the 1992 Sea-Doo XP. Back then, I witnessed the problem both before and after the sponson solution and was positively amazed.

I had experimented with aftermarket, adjustable upgrade sponsons on my 1995 Waverunner 1100, and these also were quite effective, even better than the stock sponsons.

I am hoping to get enough seat time tweaking trim tabs in order to address chine walking on the Donzi. Still, those trim tabs down sure seem to slow the boat down; I am still working on finding the sweet spot.

Nevertheless, if chine walking persists, I still haven't ruled out the possibility of buying the largest PWC sponsons available, and somehow mounting them low enough on my Donzi to touch the water at speed. It sure worked with PWC.

Right now, I have other issues to sort out, but the chine walking really scares my wife, and often keeps me busy attempting to control it.

-Andy

Just Say N20

12-20-2009, 04:33 PM

Andy, I have not seen this 85 mph Donzi run, so I can't answer your question.

I also don't have any personal experience at going over 60 in a 16, YET!

My 16 with a 310 hp SBC and a trim-able Volvo 290 outdrive is reputed to go 62 on GPS running one of BigGrizz's famous Solas props. My understanding is that these allow the boat to run very flat, I'm guessing with the "hook" part of the bottom (outside chines turn down the last foot or so) not in the water to minimize the chine walking.

Parnell's 16 ran 75 last summer with a broken motor. He has found another 100 hp, so he should be even better now. His boat also runs very flat.

This goes against the conventional "go-fast" wisdom of running a pad bottom boat fast, where you trim it up big time to minimize the wetted surface.

Your idea about adding "chines" to the bottom, like you did with the PWC sounds interesting. From the way you do things, if anyone can figure it out, it will be you.

I wish I had more personal experience I could relate.

fasttrucker

12-20-2009, 05:05 PM

Maybe you need to change the trim tabs to a k-plane design or a racing design.The bennets are not designed for high speed use.

Ed Donnelly

12-20-2009, 05:42 PM

I wonder if rocker plates might even be better than K-Planes ??...Ed

Greg Guimond

12-20-2009, 06:08 PM

On Donzi 16 O/B's produced in late 1971 through 1974, the hull of these boats were NOT CORED. They did have marine plywood &/or balsa stringers & bulkheads but NO coring. The method of hull manufacture was multi layers of hand laid up fiberglass over gel coat and into which the stringers and bulkheads were placed and then glassed over and glassed into place. The inner cockpit liner was placed into the hull and the deck was fastened on top and all 3 parts were secured by fiberglass straps and where appropriate screwed together. Donzi boats tend to be a bit heavier than most as they were overbuilt. This multiplies the chine walk if you have the wrong lower.

Donzi 16's DO NOT GPS 80mph ........btw

Greg Guimond

12-20-2009, 06:15 PM

And another mint example of the 16 OB .............

Greg Guimond

12-20-2009, 06:42 PM

And here is an old note from a guy who claims he DID break 80 ......

one of the original 200. 1974 owned since 85 and gone through several
times. currently rigged with 96 200 evinrude.less than 100 hours on
entire motor. not ported but the 3.0 has 2.7 heads and 225 carbs. bobs
nosecone and torque tamer. multiple props for different running. 4 blade for violent hole shots and acceleration. 26 raker for fuel economy and 26 chopper for the rooster tail from heaven. 100% predictable on any pump gas. hydrolic steering. 32 gallon tank custom mounted. transom redone and psychotically reinforced. foot pedal. march wheel with CRT. custom made B brackett. white with blue stripe,blue interior. almost prefect condition boat. tonneau cover and custom full cover. brand new $3500.00 south florida trailer custom fabricated with 18 poly rollers. boat is incredibly stable at all speeds. no chinewalk. 82mph on gps. (with me only, almost empty tank and a little tailwind) 76 every time with passenger and full tank. very unique and possibly the fastest and most stable baby in existance. pampered garaged covered doctors toy. 12,500.00 miami hardly ever come to this site

AndyDiSario

12-21-2009, 06:18 AM

Fasttrtucker,

That's a good story. Sorry things did not work out so easily with your ex, but it's honorable you attempt to see your daughter. Your new wife and son sound like good companions. I've noticed people who divorce, then remarry tend to get it 100% right the second time around. If she lets you get away with that interesting string of Donzis and the tunnel boat also, you got a winner there! Good luck and keep on truckin'.

As for myself, I was born in Camden, NJ in 1959, lived in the historic, beautiful town of Medford until age 7 (on up to 7 acres of land!), but then my dad died of cancer, and we were forced to move back to Newark, NJ -- one tough place to live. We lived with relatives as seven people in a one-bedrrom, one-bath apartment for awhile, then moved right nextdoor to our own tiny appartment. There were bullies, projects, riots, and one generally tough area in Newark in the 1960s. The family's love was great, but otherwise it was pretty much hell on earth.

Then we moved to Maplewood, NJ, a nearby suburb. A little better, but still nothing all that special.

Then, in 1973, magic happened and my family moved to Sunrise, FL. I have not left So. FL for longer than a week or two, since, settling in Boca Raton, with my wife, since 1987. It's paradise here. Water, water everywhere (including our backyard). Warm, tropical water, often clear, frequently calm. The Keys are nearby, the Atlantic is a few miles from our house, there are ramps available for free or low money. Parts of the Intracoastal are Minimum Wake, yet others reveal every boaters' four favorite words: "Resume Normal Safe Operation." The ocean of course, has no speed limit. Even the Everglades is surrounded and traversed by deep canals that we can boat through in the winter (when no one wants to swim anyway), and watch the alligators, thousands of migrated birds and widlife, mostly at full throttle. We can literally boat 12 months a year now that the PWC are gone, anytime there is no storm nor rain.

One day, I hope to add an airboat also to our fleet so we can blast right through the sawgrass of the everglades also. There are camps and sights galore out there.

My wife's family and friends are nearby, just one county away (20 minute car drive). Yet we live in a peaceful surrounding isolated in West Boca on small man-made lakes (electric motors only on our own little lakes). I keep adding garages onto our home and currently can fit up to eight cars, if four are small, four are large. (I don't do this, preferring to complement our two cars with motorcycles, motorboats and a small workshop instead.)

Come and visit sometime. If the weather is good, we'll take you (or any other kind folk from the Donzi Registry) out for a boat ride and tour. I cook a mean BarBQ also.

Your pal,
Andy
561-479-0578

AndyDiSario

01-03-2010, 04:39 PM

Just Say N20,

Thanks so much for the compliment -- means a lot to me, though I can only say you overestimate me.

Anyway, best of luck with your 1968 Donzi 16 Ski Sporter, and do give me a call if there is some way I can try to give you a hand, share my limited advice, or whatever.

Regards,
Andy
Boca Raton, FL
561-479-0578

===================

Small Motor Vehicles with Big Motors are my passion in life.

"You can have only one woman, but you can have all the motor vehicles you can afford. (Plus one never gets jealous of another!)"

"There is No Such Thing as Too Much Horsepower, or Too Much Garage Space."

----

1972 Donzi Sweet 16 Classic OB with Promax 225X - the "Corvette on the water."
1997 Stingray 181RS bowrider with 120 Force OB - the "Mini-van on the water."
(Nearly-)countless string of PWC, each with the biggest motor available at the time, now gone; Banned!!
1994 Corvette Convertible 6-Speed (red, present daily driver).
1965 Corvette Roadster 4-Speed, (mainly-)self-restored, ground-up, daily driver (painted red, sold in 2005).
1971 Corvette Coupe, 4-Speed (sold in 1990).
1968 Triumph TR-250 (reconditioned it, drove it as daily driver, 1977 - 1980).
Honda Valkyrie 6-cylinder trike (present).
Four Yamaha DP bikes, one remaining with me, others in hands of friends.
Yamaha V-Max 1200, main bike ride for 16 years (sold recently to yet another new friend).
Harley 1200 Custom coming in the near future.

- Thanks for listening.

AndyDiSario

01-03-2010, 09:53 PM

RPD

01-06-2010, 04:12 PM

Andy: Look at your boat's bottom. The inner strakes end a couple feet forward of the transom. When you are running fast with the motor trimmed out to raise the bow, you have only a smooth, convex surface on which to run. Your outer strakes are out of the water because at high speeds the lift raises you up. If you trim your bow up then little, if any, of the inner strakes are in the water. Thus you are skimming along on a spoon. As soon as anything, motor torque inclulded, knocks you off balance then you rock to one side until there is enough lift, from the chine or outer strake, to stop you. Then you rock back. Therefore:
1. Donzi's run best in a relatively level attitude. This, however, does leave more of the hull in the water and slows you down.
2. Some propellers will likely cause more chinewalk than others, so experiment.
3. Properly located trim tabs can be adjusted to give increased lift with less roll than the chines or strakes. This, too, will probably slow you down.
4. You could have a good fiberglass man extend your inner strakes to the transom so that they are always adding stability. This, too, will probably add drag and slow you down. Also, one of the reasons the inner strakes end ahead of the transom is to give a smoother water flow to the propeller. I don't know if it really matters.
5. Adding a sponson, if properly placed, will also probably help limiit the chinewalking, but if it does, it will also probably slow you down.
Bottom line is: the beauty of a classic Donzi hull is the overall balance in it's performance. It's usually fast, but not usually the fastest boat for the size, weight, and horsepower. It is usually a soft riding and dry boat, but comfort is not it's primary goal. It usually handles very well. Overall, it does everything well with class!

Bamboo Loui

01-07-2010, 09:04 AM

RPD-- that was an excellent explanation and description of what happens on a Classic when trimming out. Also explains in laymans terms what I experienced when I first bought our boat. I was over trimming to obtain max speed. Now I have added steering and will do a ton of prop testing to minimize the described effects.
One thing though, some Classic hulls do seem to like being being trimmed more than others. I think this is still a mystery.

HIGH LIFE

01-10-2010, 05:22 PM

Instead of trimming an outboard or sterndrive out, won't it be more efficient to use a jackplate. Raise the prop shaft up, reducing wetted surface, with the thrust going parallel to the keel. "HIGH LIFE"

mattyboy

01-10-2010, 06:42 PM

Fasttrucker, and Ed Donnelly,

What is a K-plane design of trim tabs?

What are rocker plates?

What is the theory here, that could stabilize the boat better, prevent chine-walking (or "rolling" as the local expert calls it), especially without reducing speed?

-Andy

k planes are narrow long trim tabs usually used on hi po applications

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160366799679&crlp=1_263602_263622&ff4=263602_263622&viewitem=&guid=1acb89b31260a0e2026608c6ff6ef381&rvr_id=&ua=WXI8&itemid=160366799679

rocker plates extend the running surface of the boat and can add rocker( bow lift) or hook( stern lift) to the hull. they have a focrum and the tab or plate actually bends

http://www.arneson-industries.com/page.php?type=products&id=rocker

Greg Guimond

01-10-2010, 07:00 PM

Speaking of K-Planes, did Mercury ever make a small set of 150 K-Planes?

handfulz28

01-10-2010, 07:32 PM

Speaking of K-Planes, did Mercury ever make a small set of 150 K-Planes?

Yes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercury-Keikefer-K-Plane-150S-Trim-Tabs-Boat-Tab-NEW_W0QQitemZ180434508850QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBoat_P arts_Accessories_Gear?hash=item2a02bc1c32

Greg Guimond

01-10-2010, 07:42 PM

I just saw those.........large bank! But that is what I had in mind. What actual model were they called?

Greg Guimond

05-11-2010, 07:02 PM

I always wondered how fast the 16 OB Baby COULD go? I think that running the 16 flat, even though more wet, would actually increase speed. If Ed D broke 100 mph with his, I wonder if he has kept any photos of it underway and what the attack angle was. I bet it was darn flat and that the gas tank was in the bow and not mid cockpit. Just my .02

Just Say N20

05-11-2010, 07:42 PM

Ed put a flat pad on his keel to give it something to ride on, so it really wouldn't be very helpful in predicting how a hull with a rounded keel would ride.

Greg Guimond

05-11-2010, 07:56 PM

Ed broke 100mph with that right? And Parnell has the fastest "stock" 16 bottom at 81.

Just Say N20

05-11-2010, 08:31 PM

Currently, I believe there are 2 "stock" bottom 16s running over 80. Parnell with 500+ hp and an SS lower unit, and Younger with big hp and a Blackhawk drive.

Fluffy Foo Foo recently acquired a 16 that has been seen running in the mid-80s by previous owners. He is wisely getting a feel for the boat, before attempting huge numbers, and joining the 80+ club.

Rootsy's 16 also ran over 80.

The thread with the speed records on it is for current member's rides as they run today.

I believe Ed will always have the fastest 16 at over 100, and GEOO will always have the fastest 18 @ 123 or so.

Greg Guimond

05-11-2010, 08:42 PM

Interesting, maybe Ed will see this and post up his best speed

Greg Guimond

07-11-2010, 02:12 PM

Anyone know where Fluffyfoofoo has been? Curious how he is doing with his 16

Greg Guimond

07-11-2010, 02:28 PM

Getting close to the "club" ...........

Just Say N20

07-11-2010, 08:15 PM

Great number!

Congratulations :yes: !

AndyDiSario

09-14-2010, 10:16 PM

A quick update.

Quieting down of the Mercury Performance 225X to acceptable levels is done.

Current project is to tame strake-walking (port/starboard rocking/rolling). This continuous sideways dance seems to appear based on speed, motor height, prop selection, water conditions and especially, weight added to the boat. Motor trim and trim tab position are irrelevant. If I lower the tabs, the result merely is planting the bow down and strake walking initiates at the same speed.

Strake walking occurs worse with the jack-plate full down. Raising the motor to highest position helps but certainly does not cure the problem.

Previously, I called this tendency "chine-walking," however, truthfully, the boat's chines are nowhere near the waterline while on plane, instead riding about 8 inches above the water. This eliminated the possibility of attempting to cure the problem using sponsons installed along the chines, similar to those which are common to PWC. This was pointed out and confirmed by a buddy, Stuart taking a photo of my boat at speed, quite some time ago.

The boat is rocking left-to-right and back again repeatedly on its keel, from strake to strake apparently. The deep Vee hull gives a relatively-good ride in the ocean. Still, with the combination of a keel which never flattens out, good speed potential and light weight as compared to the I/O boats, this phenomena significantly limits top speed and puts an end to the fun. Also, it scares my wife, Fern.

Thanks to the patient and generous suggestions of Greg G., I have been experimenting with various props which seem to help a little. Still, by far the biggest prevention to the problem has been weight added to the boat.

Absolute-best GPS top speed so far has been a one-time max of 64.5 mph with a nearly-full fuel tank and over 600 lbs passenger weight (including myself). This was with a 21" pitch 3-blade Mercury Mirage prop at 6500 RPM redline; by going to a taller pitch and a 4-blade prop, I expect more speed and control of the rocking; experimentation has thus far shown a 4-blade prop gives just a little more control, however I have not yet been able to try a pitch greater than 21".

To be continued.
-Andy