Shortened Alpha.....

[Donziweasel]

I know that there are alternatives for Bravo's, from IMCO shorty to Konrad. How about Alphas? Any options other than a SS?

[mrfixxall]

you can shortin it your self,only around 1/2'' or so or get a ss drive..

[cutwater]

I know that there are alternatives for Bravo's, from IMCO shorty to Konrad. How about Alphas? Any options other than a SS?

You could PM trippledigits. I think he had a few extras, some assembly required :wink:.

Seriously, though, it would AWESOME if Sterndrive Engineering made an Alpha shorty... Does anyone here have any pull at SE?

[maddad]

Some say yes, some say no, but they're saying it alot.http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167397&page=43

[handfulz28]

Some say yes, some say no, but they're saying it alot.http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167397&page=43

44 pages as I type this....is there a Cliff notes version?

For all the people that this guy gets all riled up, nobody has the stones to just find him at his shop, bolt on one of his drives, and see what happens. The guy is a total clown when it comes to online forums, but I'd like to think that at a minimum, he's got a shortened Alpha that doesn't blow up behind "higher than stock" power.

There's a couple of (old) threads here on Donzi.net on what it would take to "shorten" an Alpha; ironic since I was just searching on this topic last night. The consensus was that it was way more involved than it would be worth. But it's all just conjecture until somebody actually goes out and tries to bolt something together.

The original goal is to replicate an Alpha SS. Lots of conjecture says a "CLE" lower unit could be used; I've searched a lot, and I never came across anyone that said "I did it, it works/doesn't work." Is there truly no lower unit that is shorter than a standard Alpha and that will bolt up to the Alpha upper? Even if it needs minor modification.

Then there's the shorter vertical shaft. How different is this shaft from say, an alignment shaft? If people are machining alignment shafts for under $50, how much more effort ($$) does it take to replicate the NLA shaft? Or whatever shaft would be necessary to make the elusive shorty lower work on a standard upper.

If someone did have an "in" at SEI, what do you think the market would be if a shorty Alpha became available?

[MOP]

Rootsy had a CLE case mated to his, the main difference was the ring around the trailing edge of the gear housing which Rootsy ground off.

[Donziweasel]

Supposedly, double digits went through 100's of drives developing his. The "secret" according to him was a blend of 5 oils for the drive lube, yeah, right. I will say his boat went 80+. Don't know if he had an alpha on at the time or not. If he did, he had over 500 ponies running through it.

Still, he lied so much and was so offensive, I would never give him 3000.00 for one of his Frankenstien drives. To this day I have never heard of anyone running one of his drives. Of course he says he sells them to everyone, but he also said his boat went over 100 mph on pump fuel.

If someone actually developed a Alpha shorty that could handle 500+ hp, I think there would be a market for it.

[Planetwarmer]

Sorry for my ignorance, but why do all of this work to an Alpha? is there some advantage over a Bravo?

Just curious because I have an 87 22C with the stock (only year) 454 mag and an Alpha 1.

[osur866]

FWIW I think an Alpha behind 500 hp is a ticking time bomb, I'd think at some point the cost of replacing or rebuilding an Alpha to handle this kind of hp is not cost effective over time, my .02 Steve

[handfulz28]

Sorry for my ignorance, but why do all of this work to an Alpha? is there some advantage over a Bravo?

Just curious because I have an 87 22C with the stock (only year) 454 mag and an Alpha 1.

I won't go so far to call them advantages, but the Alpha takes less HP to turn and has a smaller hydrodynamic footprint than a Bravo.

Alphas are typically installed with a "conservative" X dimension. There "may" be benefits to raising the level of the propshaft relative to the bottom of the boat. Anything that may reduce the drag through the water might help with top speed, mid-range, and fuel efficiency.

The market for a shorty Alpha wouldn't be 500hp. It's small blocks under 400hp and maybe even V6-powered boats that might be in the market for a replacement anyways or are looking for something to differentiate themselves from the pack.

If SEI can offer a complete replacement drive with a 3 year no questions warranty for $1300 MSRP, there HAS to be a business case for a shorty Alpha.

[cutwater]

The market for a shorty Alpha wouldn't be 500hp. It's small blocks under 400hp and maybe even V6-powered boats that might be in the market for a replacement anyways or are looking for something to differentiate themselves from the pack.

If SEI can offer a complete replacement drive with a 3 year no questions warranty for $1300 MSRP, there HAS to be a business case for a shorty Alpha.

100% right on. Think about this PlanetWarmer - How many small block/Alpha combos have been produced in the last 30+ years? (e.g., most 16 and 18 classics are in that category). What are the most straightforward ways to pick up speed? 1) Build a monster engine (expensive, and then you have to worry if the Alpha can handle it?) 2) Switch to a high-perf drive plus engine work since the bigger drives are usually less efficient (labor intensive and costly).

With an Alpha shorty, you could swap the drive w/o transom work, build a nice 383ci/400hp (no prob) and have a killer combo...

At least that's what I dream about, anyway :wink:

[Rootsy]

MOP,

I had an Alpha SS upper... NOT an alpha upper... The CLE OB case will bolt to the SS upper only. The aspect ratio is different between the alpha and SS lowers. Width is more or less the same but length is different. the CLE / SS gearcase is longer than an alpha and the SS upper is different in that aspect to mate to the CLE / SS lower.

No reason you can't cut apart an upper and lower and remove an inch or so from each. Just hope you are handy at making jigs, knowledgeable at machining and welding and skilled with a TIG.

As far as making shafts for 50 bucks... you couldn't stress relieve and heat treat the shaft for $50 let alone buy the material, turn it on a lathe and cut the splines and keyways... In a "production" environment sure, $50 bucks would be doable if you were making a hundreds of thousands a year, maybe millions... A one off would be most likely $1200 - $1500 item from scratch, with a supplied blueprint. Then there's the metrology of an existing shaft to figure out what material it's made from and what heat treatment it is subjected too.

[cutwater]

As far as making shafts for 50 bucks... you couldn't stress relieve and heat treat the shaft for $50 let alone buy the material, turn it on a lathe and cut the splines and keyways... In a "production" environment sure, $50 bucks would be doable if you were making a hundreds of thousands a year, maybe millions... A one off would be most likely $1200 - $1500 item from scratch, with a supplied blueprint. Then there's the metrology of an existing shaft to figure out what material it's made from and what heat treatment it is subjected too.

So how soon can you start production?? :wink: :propeller:

[Greg Guimond]

I just want to know if your 16 ever hit 80 on GPS with 400HP in the bilge?

[handfulz28]

MOP,

I had an Alpha SS upper... NOT an alpha upper... The CLE OB case will bolt to the SS upper only. The aspect ratio is different between the alpha and SS lowers. Width is more or less the same but length is different. the CLE / SS gearcase is longer than an alpha and the SS upper is different in that aspect to mate to the CLE / SS lower.



Did the CLE case bolt on without (major) modification? Or did you have to replace parts such as the vertical shaft? Is the bolt pattern the same between standard and CLE/SS?

Thanks,
Michael

[Trueser]

This is where when you see a SS drive for sale you buy it.

[Rootsy]

I just want to know if your 16 ever hit 80 on GPS with 400HP in the bilge?

81.3 GPS... best I ever saw out of it...

The CLE lower and the Alpha SS upper bolt together without issue. The CLE lower had an Alpha SS vertical shaft in it. The pinion bearing and needle bearings are the same from the Outboard to alpha gearcase. The bearings for the propshaft as well as the gears and internal shifting assy were different than the alpha. When I rebuilt the CLE I had to open the relief in the gearcase to accomodate Alpha pinion gear. I used Alpha gears in the lower on the SS vertical shaft and the CLE propshaft. The bearings, races and thrust washers / spacers were the hard part to get right in order to set forward and reverse gear locations correctly. I also had to do some engineering on the shift assy in the propshaft as it is different than an alpha. I'll have to think on that a bit to remember exactly what I had to do.

Essentially, If you take an CLE outboard case it will bolt directly to an Alpha SS upper housing with ZERO modifications. If you have an alpha SS vertical driveshaft you can install it in the CLE case and transmit power from the upper to the lower.

Hell the water pump housing, plates, gaskets and impeller are the same.

BTW, the CLE also needs an Alpha SS shifter dog... The shifter dog that goes on the gearcase shift shaft is darn near NLA or enough $$$ to make you choke...

The CLE will also need to be drilled and C-bored for the oil passage. Someone before me had already done this a long time before I owned it or GeneD owned it. I am in full belief that my old SS (now belonging to Foster - unless he sold it) is an original SS prototype.

I know the gearcase was an OB CLE case from a Mod VP Outboard because it had the serial number stamped into it. The upper was also very early as it had the locations of the wear pads cast into it with the drill points but the holes were not drilled and tapped to attach the wear pads.. which BTW are NLA

[handfulz28]

Thanks Rootsy for sharing that info. I know it's not all the detail, but it's all very much appreciated.

Does the SS upper bolt to a standard gimble ring? From what little I've seen in the parts diagrams, am I correct in thinking the SS is of the Gen I vintage? I still don't know enough about the differences between I & II but that might be something to consider if developing a complete replacement drive.

I still go back to the theory that if SEI can replicate a standard Alpha, and now Bravo and outboard lowers, the possibility is there to profitably offer an "alternative" Alpha.

[Trueser]

Does the SS upper bolt to a standard gimble ring? yes,

[Lenny]

Too much "NLA" for me. Thank goodness I have a brandy new "spare" upper/lower SS for the one on LE.

Sternjack should be on in a week or less. :D

Testing to follow.

[Planetwarmer]

If the SS is so great why doesn't Merc still make them? Or even instead of the Alpha?

[VetteLT193]

If the SS is so great why doesn't Merc still make them? Or even instead of the Alpha?

It is great for certain boats... small performance boats. Blackhawks were had an almost identical market (+ a few more HP:eek!:).

The number of these boats in new production is extremely limited. SEI has a much better marketing chance because of their low prices and the longevity of performance boats Vs. standard boats. Meaning, almost every Donzi classic that was built is still around... but a similar sized and vintage bayliner, regal, etc. are mostly in the dump, so the aftermarket has a higher saturation of performance boats Vs. standard boats than initial production.

[Rootsy]

Yes the SS bolts directly to a Gen I transom assembly. It will bolt to a Gen II but the bellhousing either needs to 1) be replaced with a Gen I or 2) the Gen II bellhousing will need some machining, epoxy work and a Gen I shift shaft.

The remote gear oil tank of the Gen II will be useless....

[DickB]

Here's a project with a DIY shortened Alpha:
http://www.rlcpe.com/images/projects/tripple_digits/project_trippledigits.html

[ky-donzi]

http://www.rlcpe.com/images/projects/tripple_digits/project_trippledigits.html

I assume that this is the "tripple digits" of boating forum fame?