Fresh water aquariums

[onesubdrvr]

I'm starting to get a little frustrated,...

I've got a 10 gallon aquarium that I bought for my 8 year old for her birthday.

Many things have changed since I had my 1st aquarium as a kid.

Anyway, I set it up per the instructions, and kept having cloudy water, so after the 2nd week, and nearly all dead fish, I did a complete water change. Rinsed the gravel and all plants and decorations, etc.

1 week later, 5 more dead fish.

Finally, did a couple of 25% water changes, and bought proper water testing equipment. Also added air stones. So now I've got the filter (sized 20-30 gallons), 3 air stones, and every chemical available. I keep testing the water (twice a day as I don't want to keep killing fish), and my Ammonia and Nitrites continue to be WAY high (10ppm Nitrites), it says safe is .5ppm. I keep adding ammonia reducer, but can't seem to get it to come down. Ammonia is still in the "stressed" area.

I don't know what to do at this point. The last week has given 2 20% water changes, 2x daily water checks. Fish all look healthy, but the others did before they died too.

Thanks for any tips
Wayne

[Donziweasel]

Wayne,
I use to work in an aquarium store(don't ask) and have a 120 gallon tank. I think I can help. When you first set up an aquarium, there are three types of filtration, 1. Mechanical-removes large particles and debris. 2. Chemical- removes hard metals and chemicals like chlorine and the most important in your case 3. bilogical. When a fish craps, it is almost pure ammonia. In established tanks you have bacteria which break this down to nitrites and then nitrates, which are harmless.

In a new tank, it takes time to establish this bacteria. It is called cycling and takes a month. First- limit the tank to 2-3 fish at first. Second- make sure they are fish you can afford to lose in case they don't make it through the cycling process. Expect 1 to die, but they may all make it. 10 gallons is a small tank and only a few small fish can live in it. Something like 5-6 tetras sized, 2-3 molly/ sword tail sized, 1-2 bigger fish. Keep the temp at 75-78.

What is happening is that you are probably putting in too many fish. The ammonia levels are getting to toxic levels becuase there is not enough bacteria and killing the fish. Once this is broken down, it is nitrates which is fertilizer. That is creating the discoloring.

Change water once a month, but no more that a 1/3 or you will kill bacteria. A suggestion, a 10 gallon tank is not a very stabil tank. Since you have the filtration, think about a 20 gallon tank. It won't have such drastic effects if something happens and is easier to maintain, plus you can have more fish. What do you have for filtration? You should not use many chemicals at all. A little chlorine remover when you change water, perhaps a little carbon in the filter. Don't worry about PH for the first month, it will fluctuate drastically. It sounds liek you are using too many chemicals. An established cycled tank should be very low maintenence.

I will PM you my number, call me if you need to.

John

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w190/johnnyalltrans/aquarium.jpg

[onesubdrvr]

Wayne,
What is happening is that you are probably putting in too many fish. The ammonia levels are getting to toxic levels becuase there is not enough bacteria and killing the fish.
Probably too many fish, you figured a decent pet store (not a big chain), would have thought to mention to me to start with just a few instead of a tank-full. As I said, it's been YEARS since I had mine, and I did ask the question,.. oh well, we're down to 4 right now, we'll go from there.


Change water once a month, but no more that a 1/3 or you will kill bacteria.
10-4, I knew about the bacteria thing, but after doing some reading and asking questions, I was given the impression that once my Nitrites and Ammonia got that high, that I needed to change it, give it a day or two, check again, and change again if necessay.

A suggestion, a 10 gallon tank is not a very stabil tank. Since you have the filtration, think about a 20 gallon tank. It won't have such drastic effects if something happens and is easier to maintain. What do you have for filtration?
OK, I've got a Marineland Penguine 200 filter with BioWheel, has a cartridge filter that has the mechanical (foam), and chemical (carbon) filters packaged as one, and the "bio" wheel. Hell, with the money I've spent this far, a 20 gallon aquarium will be the least of my worries lol.

You should not use many chemicals at all. A little chlorine remover when you change water, perhaps a little carbon in the filter. Don't worry about PH for the first month, it will fluctuate drastically.
Ok, I'll stop with the stabilizers / etc., and just check the levels 1 a day, until the fish either die, or the water works it's way to normal.


John
Thanks again John!
Wayne

[Donziweasel]

No problem man. Nice filter for a 20 gallon. Tank is not expensive, about 50.00. Light and lid more. Don't change the water for a month. You can add some if it gets low. Put the carbon in only for three days after a water change and then remove it. It loses it's properties and will release hard water and bad chemicals back into the tank. Just use to get the water right after a change. Sounds like you are back on track.:) PM'd you my number, if you have any more problems, give me a shout.:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

Thank!! much appreciated

Wayne

[mrfixxall]

By chance did you reseal the tank? i did it once and kill all my fish,special sealer for fish tanks:bonk:

[onesubdrvr]

Nope, brand new tank,.... thoroughly rinsed, and wiped with a paper towel before setting up.

Thanks for the idea though!

Wayne

[cutwater]

DW, you are a P-I-M-P! :cool: You dropped that on us real science-like!

[Donziweasel]

..........:cool:

[jl1962]

Wayne -

I had guppies as a kid and they were indestructable......So I got a 10 gallon tank and 8 guppies for my son last month. 5 fish (the males) were dead in 48 hours. The water may not have cycled yet but after the first week, the fish stabilized and had babies - now I have about 15 - 20 guppies.

My question is this (DW please chime in): I have well water, pH is good but carbonite hardness is quite high. I replace about 10% of water every week -
should I use: tap water, distilled water or bottled water?

The fish seem to have settled in (about three weeks now) although the water is pretty cloudy.

Thanks-
Jay

[Donziweasel]

If you are very worried about the hardness, and it is only a 10 gallons, a couple of 2 liter jugs of supermarket spring water is fine, plus, there sould be no chlorine in it, a bonus. You would be suprised how many fish are prefectly happy in really hard water. Our water is superhard and I do nothing to it. Guppies are pretty hearty fish, platy's, zebras, tetras, headlight/tailights, will do well in about anything. Catfish and loaches don't do very well in hard water.

[onesubdrvr]

Day 1 update,

No chems added,

test revealed that Nitrites and Ammonia have come down a little, but still in the stress areas, but I'm not concerned.

PH is low,... very low, but you did say it would fluctuate a lot

Water is getting cloudy now - is this the bacteria you mentioned?

Anyway, as I said, no more chems until the fish die, or the water stabilizes ;)

Wayne

[Donziweasel]

Give it time. There should be bacteria in it from the first round of fish if the gravel stayed moist. Tank might be ahead of schedule. You might be getting some nitrates and a slight algea bloom. Check your mechanical filter and rinse it. Any casualties? Carbon also clarifies water as well as removing impurites AND it will raise the ph some. Might want to replace it. Still sounds like you are on the right track. The only chemical to use right now is possibly a half dose of Stess Coat for the fish if you have any. If not, your still fine. How long are you leaving the light on a day and is it in direct contact with sunlight?

[jl1962]

I think the cloudy water is OK - my fish seem to like it.

DW - that's a nice tank!

[Donziweasel]

Thanks! Worked in the largest fish store in the SE when I was in Highschool. Learned a lot. Had fish off and on over the years. Got the 120 2 years ago. Watching the fish mellows me out after a frustrating day at work, especailly in the middle of a Wyoming winter. Boo Boo gets pissed if I don't keep it clean though!:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

Give it time. There should be bacteria in it from the first round of fish if the gravel stayed moist.
The gravel did stay moist,.... but removed from the aquarium and rinsed :(

Tank might be ahead of schedule. You might be getting some nitrates and a slight algea bloom. Check your mechanical filter and rinse it.
just replaced mechanical filter this weekend, but have plenty of spares if you think I should replace it again. Nitrates tested good.


Any casualties?
Not today :wink:

Carbon also clarifies water as well as removing impurites AND it will raise the ph some. Might want to replace it.
Again, the carbon in in a plastic frame with the mechanical filter around it. I have plenty of them if you think I should replace it, but as I said above, I just did it this weekend.

Still sounds like you are on the right track. The only chemical to use right now is possibly a half dose of Stess Coat for the fish if you have any. If not, your still fine.
Thanks, I don't have any, but there I'll pick up a little tube this weekend

How long are you leaving the light on a day and is it in direct contact with sunlight?
The tank is not in direct sun-light, and the blinds are closed during the day. Only window in room is on South side of house, so it get's very little lite as it is. Light is on for approximately 6 hours per day (night-light for the 3 year old) No discoloration or apparant growth on glass, gravel or plants (plastic) or rocks.




Thanks again for your help :yes:
Wayne

[Donziweasel]

Perfect! Even if the gravel was removed and rinsed, some will survive as long as it did not dry out. Leave the old carbon in for another day or so then replace. Should start clearing in another 3-5 days. Should be crystal by day 7.

Watch the fish, stress is what causes ick. If you see any white spots on the fins, let me know. I will walk you how to get rid of it without killing the fish.

[onesubdrvr]

Ok, I've got a funny question,....

Filter manufacturer says filter should be replaced once a month,... will it ever get to that point? Is it just that it's a fairly new aquarium? I mean hell, I don't mind, I'll replace 'em once a week if need be, just wondering.

The fish don't seem stressed, but active. They don't seem annoyed with each other or anything, but must say they are very active. No white spots as of now, but will keep my eyes open for it fer sure ;)

Thanks again, I'll post little tidbits every day incase you catch something screwy that I can catch a little earlier.

Wayne

[Donziweasel]

All they mean is the carbon/mech cartrige. 6 pack should be about 10.00. Bio wheel should never be replaced or cleaned really. If you get a bunch of algea on it, just scrape it off.

[onesubdrvr]

today's update,

Water more cloudy :(

Changing filter shortly though

Chemicals good, Ammonia still in stress level, ph still low, Nitrites OK,

Fish seem happy,....

More later, gotta re-boot, system working slow

Wayne

[Donziweasel]

Sounds good, any casualties? If the water does not start clearing by Friday, we will try something else. Change the carbon today and leave it in till Friday.:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

Sounds good, any casualties?
Nope, no casualties today, course the last one looked GREAT the night before it died ;)

If the water does not start clearing by Friday, we will try something else. Change the carbon today and leave it in till Friday.:wink:
Sounds good, on mine, the filter and charcoal are attached to each other, so what I've done is take one filter, empty the charcoal out of the plastic cage, and will put it in on Friday


Thanks again ;)
Wayne

[onesubdrvr]

Daily update - day 3

Changed the carbon last night, water is still cloudy today.

All chemicals are OK, Ammonia have finally come down to the good range (under the stress range), but Nitrites are still high at 5ppm

Fish are all still alive, but the Gourami looks like he's missing some scales, and is hiding in one of the pots in the aquarium. All around the top of the head back to the dorsal fin, and down a little on both sides. Seems healthy with that exception. The Platy, the Tiger Barb, and the bottom feeders are doing OK

We'll see what tomorrow brings, I don't think it looks good for the Gourami, but we'll keep an eye on him.

Wayne

[Donziweasel]

If I had known you had a Guarami, I would have probably told you that is the fish you will probably lose. Hate to say it, but he will probably not make it through the night. Keep an eye on him for ick. It can be transfered to toher fish. They are pretty, but not real hearty for tank cycling. Platy and Tiger barb should make it fine. Good choices.

The tank is in the second stage. Bacteria has built up to a point where there is enough to break down ammonia into nitrites and keep ammonia levels low. You are over the first hump. Once nitrites start coming down, tank should begin to clear. Good job!:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

If I had known you had a Guarami, I would have probably told you that is the fish you will probably lose. Hate to say it, but he will probably not make it through the night. Keep an eye on him for ick. It can be transfered to toher fish. They are pretty, but not real hearty for tank cycling. Platy and Tiger barb should make it fine. Good choices.
I didn't think he was going to make it this long honestly,.... he's been around for a while, and has certainly seen mucho shock about now, me messing with the chems, water changes, etc. If I loose him, so be it, the Tigers seem to have better personality anyway :wink:


The tank is in the second stage. Bacteria has built up to a point where there is enough to break down ammonia into nitrites and keep ammonia levels low. You are over the first hump. Once nitrites start coming down, tank should begin to clear. Good job!:wink:
Well, if it weren't for you, I'd never gotten this far as I would have continued to mess with the chems and doing 25% water changes, which would have stopped the process. Thanks for all your help



Thanks again!!
Wayne

[Donziweasel]

No problem. Now when are you going to deliver the tank and pic up your new Donzi?:smash:

[onesubdrvr]

No problem. Now when are you going to deliver the tank and pic up your new Donzi?:smash:
:nilly: where are my keys?!?!? I'm on the way :hyper:

If it were only that easy,... but I can't take the tank away from my angels :angel: :wink:

Wayne

[onesubdrvr]

Daily update - Morning of day 5

Day 4 was a recap of day 3, cloudy water, all chems OK, with the exception of Nitrites, Total Alkalinity and PH

Day 5 is looking promising, water is beginning to clear noticibly, all fish still alive :) though what ever is on the Gaurami isn't promising, it hasn't spread, but it looks really bad, like I said, it looks like he has lost scales, but not sure what it really is, the close I look, it may be some kind of skin or something growing.

Water test this morning:
Nitrates 20ppm (good)
Nitrites 2.0ppm (stress, but down from a high of 10ppm)
Total Hardness 75ppm (soft, but good)
Total Chlorine - 0
Total Alkalinity - very low at 0ppm
ph - pretty acidic at somewhere between 6.2 and 6.8

So things are looking good, I think we are pretty much in the clear, but will have to wait the weekend to know for sure.

Wayne

[onesubdrvr]

Day 6

Water is crystal clear :yes::)

chems the same as yesterday

Nitrates 20ppm (good)
Nitrites 2.0ppm (stress, but down from a high of 10ppm)
Total Hardness 75ppm (soft, but good)
Total Chlorine - 0
Total Alkalinity - very low at 0ppm
ph - pretty acidic at somewhere between 6.2 and 6.8

But, the Guarami and the Chinese Algae eater died,... I expected the Guarami would die, but thought the algae eater was OK. In all fairness, these fish took a chemical beating the past couple of weeks, and I'm surprised they made it this long.

Other fish (2 platy's, Tiger Barb, and some other bottom feeded), all look very good.

So, I think we're good, if everything still looks good next week, I'll add another fish or two.

How often should I do partial water changes? I thought I read somewhere 10-15% weekly?

Thanks again for your help, it's been quite the learning experience for me, but when I set up my big tank in MY bedroom, I'll be better able to handle the challange.

Wayne

[Donziweasel]

Great Wayne. Glad to hear it cleared. Change 20%-25% of the water once a month. You can add if it gets low due to evaporation. Change the carbon cartridge when you do the water change. Remove it 3 days later. You can always cut a little slit in the top and pour the carbon out if you want to use the foam part for mechanincal filtration. Just rinse it before sticking it back in. Nitrites will continue to drop. You are over the hump.

The rule of thumb is 1 fish per 10 gallons, but this is not really accurate. It has more to do with filtration. Just add fish slowly. Check the ammonia levels after adding to make sure your filter and bacteria can keep up. Sounds like you have a bigger filter than "recommended". Good. 4-5 is probably max for fish for that tank.

Guaramis, bottom feeders, and catfish are not good fish for cycling, but will probably do fine now.

Now the big question, how does your daughter like it?:wink:

[onesubdrvr]

Great Wayne. Glad to hear it cleared. Change 20%-25% of the water once a month. You can add if it gets low due to evaporation. Change the carbon cartridge when you do the water change. Remove it 3 days later. You can always cut a little slit in the top and pour the carbon out if you want to use the foam part for mechanincal filtration. Just rinse it before sticking it back in. Nitrites will continue to drop. You are over the hump.

The rule of thumb is 1 fish per 10 gallons, but this is not really accurate. It has more to do with filtration. Just add fish slowly. Check the ammonia levels after adding to make sure your filter and bacteria can keep up. Sounds like you have a bigger filter than "recommended". Good. 4-5 is probably max for fish for that tank.

Guaramis, bottom feeders, and catfish are not good fish for cycling, but will probably do fine now.

Now the big question, how does your daughter like it?:wink:
She loves it! She (I bought it for the 8 yo), shares a room with the 3yo, and they both just love it, perhaps the 3yo a little more.

The Tiger Barb is the 3yo's fish, she calls it stripey,... the others are still unnamed.

I think they will like it even more now that it's clear, and should prove to be pretty trouble free.

Yeah, the filter is rated for 20-30 gallon tanks, I took the original filter out when problems started as I thought filtration may be a problem, especially with the # of fish.

You've been a great help, and just wish people at the local stores could have shed 1/2 as much light on the situation. It's quite frustrated, especially since one of them was an aquarium ONLY shop,... Oh well.

Thanks again for you help, maybe I'll get a chance to snap a couple of photos soon.

Wayne