Spur gear outdrive.....

[gcarter]

I bet this sucker is EXPENSIVE !!!!!!
http://www.weismann.net/Products/wmd.html
But being all spur gear drive means it would have better than 90% efficiency...maybe as high as 97%.
WOW!:smash:
Probably many of you know all about these, but they're new to me.
I LIKE it!

[Conquistador_del_mar]

I bet this sucker is EXPENSIVE !!!!!!
http://www.weismann.net/Products/wmd.html
But being all spur gear drive means it would have better than 90% efficiency...maybe as high as 97%.
WOW!:smash:
Probably many of you know all about these, but they're new to me.
I LIKE it!

George,
That looks awesome! This is the first time I have seen one. Thanks, Bill

[SilverBack]

What is the cost?? Hedge Hog is going to be needing one of these!!!!

[gcarter]

What is the cost?? Hedge Hog is going to be needing one of these!!!!
No idea, but I bet in the $40-$60K range.......
But it's such a great idea!
Why hasn't anyone done that before?

[HallJ]

No idea, but I bet in the $40-$60K range.......
But it's such a great idea!
Why hasn't anyone done that before?

Someone has thought of it. His name is Howard Arneson.

Jeff

[VetteLT193]

Someone has thought of it. His name is Howard Arneson.

Jeff

I was thinking the same thing, isn't that drive basically an ASD6?

[DonziJon]

I've been looking at the pictures on that site and I really can't visualize what the arrangement looks like inside the case. SPUR GEARS? Spur gears transfer power from one paralell shaft to another with straight cut gears.. unless my interpretation of that idea is incorrect. There doesn't seem to be enough ROOM in there for that. Or is it just me.. forgettin somethin? :bonk:

[Forrest]

I was thinking the same thing, isn't that drive basically an ASD6?

Look again, it's not at all like an Arneson. Also, their gear boxes have been around for many years in all types of racing. Be sure to check out their home page, it covers their product and history.

[VetteLT193]

Look again, it's not at all like an Arneson. Also, their gear boxes have been around for many years in all types of racing. Be sure to check out their home page, it covers their product and history.

Some of the arneson's are straight through, but some have a drop in them and some kind of gear case. Here's a link: http://www.arneson-industries.com/products/techSpecsPDF/ASD08DropCtr10in.pdf


As far as I can tell it is the same concept overall, use a set of gears to to lower the prop shaft in relation to the input shaft. I totally understand they look entirely different and will run different because of the size of the drop.

[Forrest]

Yes, in that reguard, both the Weismann and the Arneson ASD-6 do share the drop-box concept. Also, the ASD-6 is also available without a drop box as well.

I would really like to see a cut-away of the Weismann drive.

[DonziJon]

How about "Multiple" parallel stub shafts ... with small gears, each sucessive shaft below the other..from the input shaft ..till you get down to the prop shaft. If you split the case along the vertical parting line ..and pull the back of it off, looking forward, I'll bet you would see four (or more) bored cavities in the front case....one for each little gear on it's own stub shaft....in a vertical line. One turns left, the next turns right, the next turns left, etc. Simple. Does that work? Just wondering. :nilly: John

PS: It might even serve as it's own pressurized lube system from the mentioned "dry sump". The gears would act as the pump.

[gcarter]

While the Arnison drive does use a drop box, or not, it's not an outdrive.....there're similarities, but the differences are bigger.
The single biggest problem w/the conventional outdrive is the two bevel gear sets, and the complexity of the system. The bevel gears limits the ultimate torque and maximum shaft speed of the drive. Also, the bevel gears absorb a lot of power.
The stack of spur gears essentially have no maximum speed so you could use gear up systems for high speeds and reasonably shaped propellors......
If you do choose to go the the Weisman home page, you'll find that these folks are absolute geniuses at transmission design. W/what they know about gear design and materials, I bet they could develop one of these critters for our size boats, and it would be nearly bullet proof.
I still like it.
Ya gotta go and read their history, there ain't anybody they haven't built a tranny for, including Formula 1 and drag cars.

[BlownCrewCab]

I thought the drop box arnesons used chains. About 7-8-9 years ago the first of weismans drives where on Rick Fords Skater Cat. There was an artical in Powerboat Mag, Actually showing a cutaway of the drive and all the gears exposed, You are correct about the stacking of gears, 1 left 1 right etc. the early ones didn't look as nice as the ones now. the huge benefit of the weisman Drive is you can get allot more positive trim, whereas an arneson would put your prop out of the water to achive the same angle (thats why they came out with rocker plates). and an arneson drive when turned far left/far right actually swings up/down because of the center trim cylinder (Think about it) The same circle that the cylinder would make if it was hanging on the transom by it's self and you swung it left and right, so when you you make a hard turn your trimming up whether you want to or Not. Don't get me wrong, I love arneson Drives, I was just pointing out the good/bad of these two units.

[HallJ]

While the Arnison drive does use a drop box, or not, it's not an outdrive.....there're similarities, but the differences are bigger.
The single biggest problem w/the conventional outdrive is the two bevel gear sets, and the complexity of the system. The bevel gears limits the ultimate torque and maximum shaft speed of the drive. Also, the bevel gears absorb a lot of power.
The stack of spur gears essentially have no maximum speed so you could use gear up systems for high speeds and reasonably shaped propellors......
If you do choose to go the the Weisman home page, you'll find that these folks are absolute geniuses at transmission design. W/what they know about gear design and materials, I bet they could develop one of these critters for our size boats, and it would be nearly bullet proof.
I still like it.
Ya gotta go and read their history, there ain't anybody they haven't built a tranny for, including Formula 1 and drag cars.


George,

I was being a bit of a Weis ass!!!!!!! heheheh.:bonk:

I agree, the Arneson is not a typical gimble style outdrive. The Weismann concept however, is way better than the satus-quo Mercury products.

Their concept of power transmission and reduction is far superior to that of the traditional outdrive. Not to mention they now how to dry sump a drive properly.

Mercury products on the other hand, can be found relatively cheap and the brand has been pounded into people's heads for years!

An Arneson or Weismann would be at the top of the list for me.

Jeff

[HallJ]

I thought the drop box arnesons used chains. About 7-8-9 years ago the first of weismans drives where on Rick Fords Skater Cat. There was an artical in Powerboat Mag, Actually showing a cutaway of the drive and all the gears exposed, You are correct about the stacking of gears, 1 left 1 right etc. the early ones didn't look as nice as the ones now. the huge benefit of the weisman Drive is you can get allot more positive trim, whereas an arneson would put your prop out of the water to achive the same angle (thats why they came out with rocker plates). and an arneson drive when turned far left/far right actually swings up/down because of the center trim cylinder (Think about it) The same circle that the cylinder would make if it was hanging on the transom by it's self and you swung it left and right, so when you you make a hard turn your trimming up whether you want to or Not. Don't get me wrong, I love arneson Drives, I was just pointing out the good/bad of these two units.


Blown,

You are close. The Arneson uses a chain or gear depending on what rotation you desire. The older Arnesons have "trim steer". Although not Ideal, it doesn't seem to be too noticeable on my boat at least.
150 MPH may be another story. This issue is fixed by relocating the steering cylinder inner mount. The newest generation design has fixed this.

Jeff

[BigGrizzly]

The Weisemann, is a better trimable than Arneson, remember Geo had to and was one of the first to use the fin over 8 years ago for better trim among other reasons. The Arneson drop box still doesn't offer enough trim for all conditions. Remember Geeo, didn't have a trans. forward, start engine , neutral stop engine, reverse, paddle. This Weismann has the availability of prop shaft parallel with the planing, almost impossible with the Arneson. I really like the idea. These guys have a great rep with racers.

[DonziJon]

I just went to the Weisman Site for a look. WOW! Looking at their early "surface drive" and other stuff, you just gotta have a Big Grin on your face if you appreciate mechanical stuff. :smash: John

http://www.weismann.net/

[gcarter]

I've been looking at their web page.....there isn't a picture of the left side of the drive...all right side. The specs talk about identical steering and trim cylinders.....I was just curious if there was only one steering cylinder.

[DonziJon]

Maybe it's just an "artistic" thing. Ever notice lines drawings of boats/yachts/ships.. always seem to have the bow to the right and stern on the left. It always seems awkward to show it the other way. :wink: John

[gcarter]

Maybe it's just an "artistic" thing. Ever notice lines drawings of boats/yachts/ships.. always seem have the bow to the right and stern on the left. It always seems awkward to show it the other way. :wink: John
John, I worked in a naval architecture office for over five years.....ships ALWAYS sail to the east.

[Boatless]

I'm still confused at how any surface drive can achieve positive trim? Once the propeller is at the surface, there is no means of achieving any more trim as the propeller will be pulled out of the water? I thought an outdrive was anything on the back of a boat that is not an outboard? Oh, and the wiseman is a direct KAAMA drive copy as this is the concept that John Conners and Betty Cook to to the senior Mr. Wiseman to make the gears for. They even used the same boot as a Kaama. Which is a copy of the arnison as they were trying to get around the patent that arnison had at the time. To say they are nothing alike????? unfornatutely they have not proven to be a better mouse trap. been out for many years and no one is running them

[BigGrizzly]

Rocker plates. Rtw if the hull is right trim may not be needed

[BigGrizzly]

Who needs stinking trim

[DonziJon]

Who needs stinking trim

Is that one of those new Bass Boats? You can cookum as soon as you catchum. John: nilly:

[BigGrizzly]

Another one of thoes guys that wanted to do something different. They use to call these things ski boats-not me:doh:

[HallJ]

Does anyone have detailed pic's of a Kamma drive?

Jeff

[Boatless]

Here you go.

[gcarter]

Cuda had a 30' Formula w/Kaama drives and Merc 420s.

Say what you will, the spur gear drives and Kaama or Arneson drives are fundamentally different.

[HallJ]

Any pics of the Kaama's guts?

Jeff

[Boatless]

Kaama took the Arneson drive and tube and added a gear set in order to do a vertical drop. This was the major problem with the KAAMA and the Wiseman.

In order to get around the arnesin patent, Kaama put a gimbal in place of the arnison ball arrangement. Kaama even copied the vertical fin on the arnison. Of course when the boot that Kaama made cracks, the boat sinks where the arnison this is not the case.

The Kaama and Wiseman have a lot of slip with that gear case in front of the drive. Hence the big wedge on the front of the wiseman after the big blob did not work.

[Boatless]

Any pics of the Kaama's guts?

Jeff
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=04728308&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526u%3D% 25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-adv.htm%2526r%3D20%2526p%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50% 2526d%3DPTXT%2526S1%3Dweismann.INNM.%2526OS%3Din%2 Fweismann%2526RS%3DIN%2Fweismann&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

[gcarter]

I've read a few posts on OSO about the lack of replacement boots. If some rubber company were to make an investment in replacement boots, it could possibly make some money for them.

[Boatless]

I've read a few posts on OSO about the lack of replacement boots. If some rubber company were to make an investment in replacement boots, it could possibly make some money for them.

Yea, but how many boots does one have to sale to clear a profit and pay taxes and cover the $40K investment for the tooling?

Just buy a drive that is still being made by a company that is still in business.

[MOP]

Yea, but how many boots does one have to sale to clear a profit and pay taxes and cover the $40K investment for the tooling?
Just buy a drive that is still being made by a company that is still in business.

Next to nothing!!!!!!!!! One of my buddies makes all kinds of rubber goodies for military aircraft and some Navy stuff, his machines are to say the very least extremely complex but so unbelievably easy to reconfigure. He was showing me one afternoon how easy it was, he hopped on his key board mocked up a model punched it in and in a very short time had one to check against the spec sheet. He can make just about anything in very short order, he said he can do a run of a few hundred of one thing then switch to another to get the orders out pronto. Not sure what he would charge to break his schedule and do a few one offs.

[BigGrizzly]

I won't get into it but weisman will have more positive trim then arnesson and more docable advantage than single aenie. Boatless we ALL know you are a arnie supporter and have been ever since Geeo. Personally I would not own one, come to think of it either do you correct?

[Boatless]

I do not own one, never have but I would not say I never would. Just comes done to $$ or lack thereof.

As to your points, docking I don't see how. Single to Single.

Positive trim. Only in theory as the drive is on a gimbal it has the ability to move on a different axis. However, in the real world, the mounting of the drive makes this impossible. When these things, Wiseman and Mercury and others are mounted to get the propeller shaft level or above the boat bottom, there is not a chance to trim upward as it pulls the propeller out of the water in the process, and whats more imporntant is the gear case in the front of the drive gets deeper in the water as you trim it up and thus creates blow out.

This is a very obvious and real point. Look at the new imco scx drive. Its lower gears are larger in diameter than the regular sc drive and thus is 10-15 mph slower than a sc drive unit.

Now look at the diameter of the Wisemann. The nose houses the step down gears. These are obviously larger in diamter than the shaft as as imco has demonstated, get that part of the drive wet and you are going to see some problems.

This is a mute point anyways as wiseman is no longer making these drives the last I heard.

[BigGrizzly]

I am sorry Boatless, But the Imco which I have a lot of experience with when the prop shaft is mounted level with the bottom of the hull, and it DOES have positive trim not much but it does. This is not theory nor Propaganda from the makers but fact and my own personal experience. Please don't say positive is over 15 degrees or something that mundane just to prove a point. Positive lifts the bow, end of story. Yes Arnies are fast on the right hull with the right prop and things. However there are things that are a detriment especially on single engine power, That the Wisemann , Imco shorty have in their favor for most boaters, like slow speed maneuvering, in both froward and reverse. As for the Diameter fo the new big imco, with the 1,000 Hp it is can handle and warrantied for, the pluses far out weigh the minus, compared to the standard one, for big power ( above 800 hp). Does any one realize how much work goes into putting an Arnie on a boat.:shocking: Of course you can just call up your local dealer and pick up the correct prop for it. Even, as good as The Arnie co is, they don't have the answers.

[Boatless]

I am sorry Boatless, But the Imco which I have a lot of experience with when the prop shaft is mounted level with the bottom of the hull, and it DOES have positive trim not much but it does. This is not theory nor Propaganda from the makers but fact and my own personal experience. Please don't say positive is over 15 degrees or something that mundane just to prove a point. Positive lifts the bow, end of story. Yes Arnies are fast on the right hull with the right prop and things. However there are things that are a detriment especially on single engine power, That the Wisemann , Imco shorty have in their favor for most boaters, like slow speed maneuvering, in both froward and reverse. As for the Diameter fo the new big imco, with the 1,000 Hp it is can handle and warrantied for, the pluses far out weigh the minus, compared to the standard one, for big power ( above 800 hp). Does any one realize how much work goes into putting an Arnie on a boat.:shocking: Of course you can just call up your local dealer and pick up the correct prop for it. Even, as good as The Arnie co is, they don't have the answers.

Didn't know that there was no slow speed manuavering on a single engine arnison. Seems that you sell imco???? No bias here.:shocking:

you need to read read the oso and boatfreaks guys that have ran the scx drives who all have experienced the speed drop, then the re rigging of the boat. (yea raise the drives and the engines and change the exhaust for your imco) a guy on boat freaks lost 20 MPH just by installing thescx.

as for propellers, I also read on oso that they now use a standard "bravo" propeller on the arnison. hmmmm, wonder what that will do for reversing when they are no longer restricted to a cleaver propeller??

[HallJ]

You could always run a round ear prop on an Arneson. They give more bow lift.

They have had an adapter to run an over the hub Mercury prop for quite a while.

Installation of the Arneson was quite simple.

If your aim is speed, your propeller is going to expensive no matter what drive you have.

Jeff

[BigGrizzly]

First off compared to an out drive their is a big difference in marina maneuvering. Like I said There is a speed drop but 20 mph is just not true. We haven't experienced more then 3, maybe 4 mpk on 650 hp engines. No I don't sell Imco. I sell Props and do know of the adapter for the square drive props. Geoo had one too. Boatless Have you ever driven a single Arnie in reverse or tried ti dock one? I have and I just don't like it. But what do I know my old Criterion has an out dated TRS and Merctrans with a little 502 in it and my Corsican has an old Volvo290 on it with a 351 Ford Cleveland in it, hardly state of the arts, bit they are boats. Besides I have only been boating since 1960.

[Boatless]

First off compared to an out drive their is a big difference in marina maneuvering. Like I said There is a speed drop but 20 mph is just not true. We haven't experienced more then 3, maybe 4 mpk on 650 hp engines. No I don't sell Imco. I sell Props and do know of the adapter for the square drive props. Geoo had one too. Boatless Have you ever driven a single Arnie in reverse or tried ti dock one? I have and I just don't like it. But what do I know my old Criterion has an out dated TRS and Merctrans with a little 502 in it and my Corsican has an old Volvo290 on it with a 351 Ford Cleveland in it, hardly state of the arts, bit they are boats. Besides I have only been boating since 1960.

Yes, a 25' cat with a 525 and asd6. Docked fine, reversed off the trailer fine and got through the marina with no problems at all. Have you driven a Wiseman with a cleaver or a imco with a cleaver on a single engine application? You might be suprised even more than you think.

I truely belive you are laying more blame on the drive than the propellers. As HallJ pointed out there are other propeller options and as I read on oso, (yea i an internet educated idiot) they have them now with a standard bravo propeller.

So who's propellers do you sell?

[BigGrizzly]

Hav not done a Weisman but plenty of cats and V hulls with Imco shorties as for cleavers, we don't need them we use modern day props. Oh yes I did one with a cleaver and ended up selling him another prop. Lets not blame the prop either. Fact you can turn tighter with an out drive single then a single Arnie.

[Boatless]

Hav not done a Weisman but plenty of cats and V hulls with Imco shorties as for cleavers, we don't need them we use modern day props. Oh yes I did one with a cleaver and ended up selling him another prop. Lets not blame the prop either. Fact you can turn tighter with an out drive single then a single Arnie.

So, I take it you sell all the propellers to all the imco customers and this is why you know so much. about imco only.

I looked (thax internet) and the arnison and the bravo both have the same steering radius. so..:doh:

what does mr. Hallj have to say. After all he is the only one here with experience and he doesn't seem to share your views.

[BigGrizzly]

You are only part right. I actually am good friend with a sew high performance engine builders who like me to prop their boats for them some with stock drives some with imco and there are a couple with Arnie. I also test prop for a fewe prop makers. I use to work foe Honda the manufacturer not a dealer, also testing engines props and doing QC and warranty writing the flate rate manuals.etc. I know that you have fallen in love with the Arnie from the Geoo era, and remember the hook post and several others you were involved in. As for the turning radius with a single, I disagree big time. I will say I have not driven two identical boats one with and one without so I should not say and neither should you. One thing I have learned over the years is that specs. lie. even some of Honda's. I believe almost nothing of what I hear or read and only half of what I see. I am not going to debate this with you because nothing is going to change your mind. I remember the hook post! So this is my last post on this useless discussion.

[Boatless]

And you should re read the hook post. I was 100% correct that Geoo had to remove the hook in his boat’s bottom where as all the resident experts claimed it was b.s. CDMA verified what Geoo did to the bottom of his boat. If you are going to re-read all my old post please comprehend what was written.

Sorry, but one needs facts to substantiate a claim. Else it is b.s.. Don't be a hater, you've made some large claims with nothing to back it up, especially in regards to the claims made for the Wiseman.

[BigGrizzly]

We all read the hook post and it is evident that you don't know the terminology the word hook means. As much as I respect Chris, after his discussion-which talked of inconsistencies in the hull bottom, he said hence a hook, your answer was, what he said. It seems that Chris was the ONLY one who came to your defense. When I talked to Geoo at the boat show the next week the told me there no hook just some une ven bottom places.

[Boatless]

Dude, you've got issues.:shocking:

[BigGrizzly]

Yes I have issues but I have a boat and real life experience!