Shorty Testing, Installation & Questions - 22C

[Carl C]

I'm working on installing the Imco -2" shorty lower on my 22C right now. I hope to get out for some testing tomorrow. I considered doing a one day comparison but really don't need to. Right now I'm running from 73.5 on a really nasty hot and humid day up to 75.1 on a decent summer day. Last fall I was seeing 75.5 on cooler days. My rpms rarely hit 4,800 with the Mercury Racing labbed 28 Bravo 1 so there is room for more rpms and speed. That's my starting point. We'll see what happens. Hotshot already answered my first questions which is that there is no lock tab system for the prop nut so I'll put on some red loc-tite and get the nut good and tight and I'll lose my Livorsi speedo until (and if) I install a pick-up for it. No problem since I now have the chartplotter with gps speedo. I would like to get the dash speedo working again though. I'll post updates as the project progresses.

[BlownCrewCab]

With the prop freed up from being higher & dragging 2" less gearcase through the water you'll probably see more RPM with the same prop. Did your other drive have a nosecone?

[Mr X]

Carl,
don't use any locktite. The 2 cup washers go between the nut and the
thick spacer. You really dont have to tighten it all that much either.

It IS an 1 1/4" propshaft.....right?

[DonziJon]

Carl: I wouldn't use RED Locktite. You would probably have to use a torch to get it off. I might drill the prop shaft and nut and use a cotter pin like in the old days, just for piece of mind. John

[Mr X]

Carl: I wouldn't use RED Locktite. You would probably have to use a torch to get it off. I might drill the prop shaft and nut and use a cotter pin like in the old days, just for piece of mind. John

Don't do that either. That is a tried and true system Mercury uses.
The props do NOT come off!

[VetteLT193]

Carl: I wouldn't use RED Locktite. You would probably have to use a torch to get it off. I might drill the prop shaft and nut and use a cotter pin like in the old days, just for piece of mind. John


I second that. Red loctite is ridiculous to get off. If you feel like using loctite still, use the blue stuff.

[DonziJon]

Don't do that either. That is a tried and true system Mercury uses.
The props do NOT come off!

Is there another name for those "Cup" washers you mentioned? I'm curious as to what they look like and how they work. John

[Carl C]

Well I already used the red loc-tite! Not to worry, I'll be able to take it apart. I've been using this stuff for years. Mr. X, thanks for verifying the washer arrangement; That is how Hotshot's mechanic showed me and is how I did it. It's done except for the cavitation plate extension. Do I need to use this and will it interfere with my future steering install? BCC, no, no nose cone. I'm hoping for a solid 2 mph, rpms closer to 5,100 and a roostertail! Weather permitting, I will test tomorrow for a good run and check to make sure no water is entering the drive. Here are pics:

[smokediver]

those holes on the port side of the skeg .... is that for a driveshower ?:popcorn:

[mrfixxall]

no cavation plate extension = bigger rooster tail:biggrin.:

The ssm #4, the prop sticks way beyond the cavation plate..i would say run it wirh out it and see what happens,worse case you have to bolt it on..drill the holes just in case..

[mrfixxall]

one more thing carl!!! wheres your water pick up? it may be under the point on the nose cone but?

[kd5cue]

using red loctite,,you need torch get off:confused::confused::confused:

[Mr X]

Well I already used the red loc-tite! Not to worry, I'll be able to take it apart. I've been using this stuff for years. Mr. X, thanks for verifying the washer arrangement; That is how Hotshot's mechanic showed me and is how I did it. It's done except for the cavitation plate extension. Do I need to use this and will it interfere with my future steering install? BCC, no, no nose cone. I'm hoping for a solid 2 mph, rpms closer to 5,100 and a roostertail! Weather permitting, I will test tomorrow for a good run and check to make sure no water is entering the drive. Here are pics:
The boat probablly will NOT plane off without the cavatation plate bolted on.
Mine would not.

[The Hedgehog]

Is there another name for those "Cup" washers you mentioned? I'm curious as to what they look like and how they work. John

They have an ever so slight cup to them. If you saw one laying around and did not look closely at it you might not notice it. If you see it laying on a smooth surface of next to a standard washer it is pretty obvious. I don't know if they have a name but Ted's right, they are standard issue for the big shaft and you don't need to worry about them coming off.

I would avoid the locktite. It does not sound fun for prop testing.

[DonziJon]

They have an ever so slight cup to them. If you saw one laying around and did not look closely at it you might not notice it. If you see it laying on a smooth surface of next to a standard washer it is pretty obvious. I don't know if they have a name but Ted's right, they are standard issue for the big shaft and you don't need to worry about them coming off.
I would avoid the locktite. It does not sound fun for prop testing.

Thanks Hedge: I think I know what your talking about. We used to call them "Bellville Washers".. in the machine tool industry. They were designed to give an axial pre-load to what ever was clamped down on them. John

EDIT: They were sometimes even used as a spring. B&S Automatic Screw Machines. Stack em up.

[Carl C]

using red loctite,,you need torch get off:confused::confused::confused: Misconception. It'll take some elbow grease but it'll come apart. Not friendly for prop testing like Hedgehog says but I'm hoping that this prop will be pretty close and will get me through this season. I won't loc-tite it in the future though. Thinking back, I've never had a nut back off to where the tabs caught.


The boat probablly will NOT plane off without the cavatation plate bolted on.
Mine would not. OK, I'll put it on in the morning before heading out. Tomorrow is supposed to be near 90* and super humid. This will be interesting.

Mr. Fixxall, the only water pick-up is at the front bottom of the bullet.

[DonziJon]

using red loctite,,you need torch get off:confused::confused::confused:

YUP: We're talking Locktite #271 and #290. Those are the "Old" numbers. Today they are...in your ordinary hardware store... as often as not called out..generically.. as RED or BLUE "threadlocker". Locktite #242 was the blue. A fastener used with #242 "could" be removed later with a wrench with some effort without heat. The RED needed heat. #290 was the most difficult to remove. Each grade had a different application. #271 was sometimes called "Studlocker". This was nice when you had a stud with COURSE threads that would be screwed into an engine block..where the opposite end of the stud was FINE threads. :nilly: John

[DonziJon]

The cavitation plate bolts are a great place for red loctite.. Maybe even green..

Years ago I think I even saw some PINK. :smash: Not sure though. John

[Carl C]

I want to know why red loc-tite comes in a blue tube now:(. I'll bust out the teal stuff for the cav plate.:cool:

[blackhawk]

I agree on mounting the anti-ventilation plate. You may not get on plane without it.

I think your current prop is going to work well as long as you can still carry the bow enough. If so I am betting a solid 200 rpm and 1.5-2mph gain.

[The Hedgehog]

Thanks Hedge: I think I know what your talking about. We used to call them "Bellville Washers".. in the machine tool industry. They were designed to give an axial pre-load to what ever was clamped down on them. John
EDIT: They were sometimes even used as a spring. B&S Automatic Screw Machines. Stack em up.

Bellville washers. I will remember that and use it when I am trying to sound important. Unfortunately that will probably actually be something that I remember until the day I die now. Answers to the questions to the series 63 test I crammed for and passed last week. Those are as good as gone now!:smash:

[BlownCrewCab]

Yes, Bellville washers when two are mounted "Opposing" are usually used as a spring to maintain a certain preload. Or a single bellville with zero lash and a 1/4 turn of the nut creates the same effect in tighter areas.

Green Loctite is "Wicking" meaning you can put it on after assembly.

Woudn't a nylon Lock nut work?

[p729lws]

those holes on the port side of the skeg .... is that for a driveshower ?:popcorn:

If you're talking about the cavitation plate, then yes, that's for a drive shower. And IMCO is pretty adament about the cav plate being installed.

Dan

[p729lws]

one more thing carl!!! wheres your water pick up? it may be under the point on the nose cone but?

I was wondering that also??? Carl, is the water pick-up in the nose cone? It can be ordered either way...

Dan

[yeller]

Carl, who cares what you use to hold the nut on. Use tar for all I care. :nilly: Just get that damn boat in the water and lets see some results! :yes:
I put my name in the hat for that shorty, so if I couldn't get it, at least give me some info! :hyper: :tongue:

Hope it exceeds your expectations Carl. :yippie:

[Last Real Texan]

The plate is a must....when we tried the shorty on The hedgehogs Green ZX we had problems getting on plane and had to baby it up, even then it would blow out if not careful. I think if we had put it on things could have been different. As for the prop, you should gain about 200-300 Revs with the shorty depending on your measurements before and after and it also depends on how well it still hooks up. I would guess you are going from 8 inches deep to 6 inches deep on the prop centerline, did not look to see what vintage your boat is, if it is newer maybe 7 inches deep to 5 inches deep after the swap. Not sure if you have the Hydraulic steering set up or not but be prepared for more torque feed back the closer the prop gets to the surface. Should perform well and good luck. Keep us posted. I can tell you this be prpared to do some testing with different props, rarely can you just stick a shorty on and run it with good results, maybe if you were over propped to begin with but most of the time it takes another 2 inches of pitch to get results.
Tex

[blackhawk]

Tex, if I remember right the X on Carl's is 14.5" which puts his propshaft at 7.3".

I agree with prop testing but I have followed Carl's prop threads(how can you not :D ) and he is slightly overpropped right now with a labbed 28 Bravo. So, he might get lucky!

[Carl C]

:thewave::thewave::thewave:

:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

76.7 mph @ 4,950 rpm first speed run after 2 practice laps. Backed it up with a couple of high 75s. This on a hot and super humid day when I'd expect to see 74. I went for a pass with max trim (@ limiter setting) and shot a rooster tail a jet boat would be proud of. I also set off the rev limiter horn and went into gentle shut-down! Oh well. I put the cav plate on before testing per you guys' advice. Planing was no problem. Sharp banking turns are still there. I'd say mission accomplished. I'm taking it to Lake St. Clair tomorrow for a good run. Right now I'm very happy, this is the first mod to give real results. Steering will be done this winter.

[blackhawk]

:thewave::thewave::thewave:

:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:

76.7 mph @ 4,950 rpm first speed run after 2 practice laps. Backed it up with a couple of high 75s. This on a hot and super humid day when I'd expect to see 74. I went for a pass with max trim (@ limiter setting) and shot a rooster tail a jet boat would be proud of. I also set off the rev limiter horn and went into gentle shut-down! Oh well. I put the cav plate on before testing per you guys' advice. Planing was no problem. Sharp banking turns are still there. I'd say mission accomplished. I'm taking it to Lake St. Clair tomorrow for a good run. Right now I'm very happy, this is the first mod to give real results. Steering will be done this winter.

Carl, glad to hear it! How much did the ride of the boat change? Did it ride flatter at WFO?

[Last Real Texan]

:thewave::thewave::thewave:
:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy:
76.7 mph @ 4,950 rpm first speed run after 2 practice laps. Backed it up with a couple of high 75s. This on a hot and super humid day when I'd expect to see 74. I went for a pass with max trim (@ limiter setting) and shot a rooster tail a jet boat would be proud of. I also set off the rev limiter horn and went into gentle shut-down! Oh well. I put the cav plate on before testing per you guys' advice. Planing was no problem. Sharp banking turns are still there. I'd say mission accomplished. I'm taking it to Lake St. Clair tomorrow for a good run. Right now I'm very happy, this is the first mod to give real results. Steering will be done this winter.
SWEET:rock::rock::rock::rock:

[ITTLFLI]

Thats great!

[Mr X]

Carl, what was your total MPH gain ?

[cutwater]

Good stuff, Carl!

[zelatore]

Excellent. Now the question is ..... how are you going to get to 80? :propeller:

[SilverBack]

Carl......That is great!!! You deserve to have a mod go right and get some solid gains!!! You need to think about the IMCO setback with the 3 inch rise before you buy your steering. I think I gained as mush speed from raising the prop with the extension box and shorty as I did by adding HP. Plus the rooster tail just gets bigger when you go with the raised extension box.

[Carl C]

I just washed and waxed the boat for tomorrow. I pulled the prop (so much for red loctite being permanent!) and pulled the drain plug to check for water, there was none. Just for kicks I put a dial indicator on the big prop shaft. Runout was almost zero.

Blackhawk, my testing today was limited and I didn't notice a lot of difference except for the speed and rpm gain. After tomorrow I will know a lot more.

Mr. X, I gained at least 2 mph and 250 rpm. Maybe more.

Don, 80 hell! My goal is 88-90! That will be when I repower in the future. Steering is next.

502Stang, I'm tired. Let's save the set-back talk for another day!:alligator

[chappy]

I just washed and waxed the boat for tomorrow. I pulled the prop (so much for red loctite being permanent!) and pulled the drain plug to check for water, there was none. Just for kicks I put a dial indicator on the big prop shaft. Runout was almost zero.

Blackhawk, my testing today was limited and I didn't notice a lot of difference except for the speed and rpm gain. After tomorrow I will know a lot more.

Mr. X, I gained at least 2 mph and 250 rpm. Maybe more.

Don, 80 hell! My goal is 88-90! That will be when I repower in the future. Steering is next.

502Stang, I'm tired. Let's save the set-back talk for another day!:alligator

Change your sig buddy.:cool:

[zelatore]

Carl sounds like a happy camper. :hyper::hyper::hyper:

[DonziJon]

I just washed and waxed the boat for tomorrow. I pulled the prop (so much for red loctite being permanent!) and pulled the drain plug to check for water, there was none. Just for kicks I put a dial indicator on the big prop shaft. Runout was almost zero.

Blackhawk, my testing today was limited and I didn't notice a lot of difference except for the speed and rpm gain. After tomorrow I will know a lot more.

Mr. X, I gained at least 2 mph and 250 rpm. Maybe more.

Don, 80 hell! My goal is 88-90! That will be when I repower in the future. Steering is next.

502Stang, I'm tired. Let's save the set-back talk for another day!:alligator

Carl: Nice to see you back from the Great North. We missed you. Now it's time for a blower. :smash: John

[BigGrizzly]

This is a good start and good information for shorty on a stock boat. Congratulations. You will learn to drive another mile or two and hydraulick will help here too.

[yeller]

Glad you like it Carl. Keep us posted on how the next run goes. :yes:

[Carl C]

77.5 @ 5,000

Lake St. Clair was rough with steady 2 footers and 3s too. In the past I've found good water deep into Canada by the Thames River. It worked. 6" ripple. I ran 2 mph faster than my best ever and I did it with full fuel and on a hot day and wasn't even on the ragged edge (close though). I waved hi to our Canadian friends and bye to all the black flies for some rough water fun. I wasn't about to flip the boat but it seems to run a bit flatter and better in the rough. I definately didn't hurt anything with the shorty. My mid-range is stronger than ever. The boat accellerates like a rocket. The high banked turns are higher and the rub rail is getting dipped! I ran the boat a good 4 hours today. I need the steering real bad now and want to get the dash speedo working.

[tamburello]

Sounds like the shorty was a good investment. That's a nice speed bump. It's been fun reading your well documented series of upgrades.

- Jeff

[blackhawk]

Carl, glad to hear you cracked 77! Didn't someone predict a 200 rpm gain with an additional 1.5-2mph? :D

Have you though about a GPS speedo? CPPerformance has some decent deals on Autometer kits. My GPS gets tough to read at speed so I am thinking about biting the bullet.

[zimm17]

Congrats- another shorty owner on the forums. Too bad I'm sitting here pumping water out of my oil pan on a nice day...

Ashame I had to read two pages of loctite debate too- this would have made a good archive post for the imco shorty.

Next up- hyd steering

[BigGrizzly]

Nice going I foresee another couple in the future, good job and good luck.

[Carl C]

Thanks everybody. You know, this forum makes it all possible. This is my first IO and I would be fairly clueless if not for you guys. I posted a thread about shorties and the next thing I know I've got one sitting in the kitchen! Any collection of microprocessors is no match for the collection of minds with real world experience that are right here. I bow before thee..:worthy:

[Dr. Dan]

:smash:Carl thats great.... I highly recomend a Good GPS Speedo... its gotta be the most fun piece of equipt. in my boat...as well as the recall switch.

Now why do some hulls do good and others don't do squat with a shorty? I know of a member here who will go nameless that ran a shorty and a ton of Props for a season or more and got no gain....WTF?

Course it coulda been the color of his boat too... it was Revlon Red?

Keep at it Carl...I am gonna have to sell my boat so I can keep up with all the Speed Demons here.

Be Safe...

Doc :wink:

[ky-donzi]

Very impressive. Are you still using the Bravo 1 prop?

[Carl C]

I already have two GPS' on board and kind of like the stock Livorsi. The optimistic readings look good to unsuspecting riders too:wink:. If it's just a matter of mounting a pick-up tube I'll probably do that. Ky-Donzi, yes, my 28p Bravo 1 from Mercury Racing seems to be working well. Thanks Doc, I appreciate all you've done for me. Why don't Imco shorties work on all 22s? You got me. I'm gonna have to talk to Hot-shot about why he saw fit to remove it from his boat, which is really sweet. BTW, I'm sure there is more speed to be found with my set-up after I install the steering. Blackhawk, my gains exceeded your prediction! I hit 77.5 when, pre-shorty, It would have taken all I had to hit 75. And this was on my second time out with it.:smash::eek!:

[ky-donzi]

kind of apples and oranges but that is about the same increase in speed that I got from a procharger on a 18ft with a 350 mpi.

It would be intresting to see how the shorty compaires to HP. I guess I went from about 330 at the crank to 450 at the crank, just a good guess. In turn, about 5 mph gain.

You however don't have to worry about blowin your engine as much as I do, and I believe you probably got the speed cheaper than I did.....

[blackhawk]

I already have two GPS' on board and kind of like the stock Livorsi. The optimistic readings look good to unsuspecting riders too:wink:. Blackhawk, my gains exceeded your prediction! I hit 77.5 when, pre-shorty, It would have taken all I had to hit 75. And this was on my second time out with it.:smash::eek!:

Ah I forgot the speedo on Classics is out there for all to see. It's nice to have an optimistic speedo then! :D

I knew you'd gain at least 1.5mph, I'm glad you got more!

[Mr X]

Carl,
no need to mount a pickup on the boat.
If you drill the Imco shorty in the correct spot with the
correct size drill bit, the speedo will work again.
Contact Imco for the details.

[Carl C]

Carl,
no need to mount a pickup on the boat.
If you drill the Imco shorty in the correct spot with the
correct size drill bit, the speedo will work again.
Contact Imco for the details. OK, thanks.

[Carl C]

Just an update. Today I hit 78.5 on gps and smoked a Sunsation on Lake St. Clair. Today was cooler and dry and that's a full mph than my previous best! We made a run to Lake Erie and back too. Ran the boat a good 5 hours and I love this shorty.:thumbsup:

[The Hedgehog]

kind of apples and oranges but that is about the same increase in speed that I got from a procharger on a 18ft with a 350 mpi.

It would be intresting to see how the shorty compaires to HP. I guess I went from about 330 at the crank to 450 at the crank, just a good guess. In turn, about 5 mph gain.

You however don't have to worry about blowin your engine as much as I do, and I believe you probably got the speed cheaper than I did.....

I still think that you have more.

[Dr. Dan]

:smash:Yep lets see... remove drive shower an gain 4+ mph per Rooster Boy and buy a labbed $1000 Bravo One and gain 7 mph per Johnny Revlon...so lets see...hmmm that should put you in around 89 mph...

Byron ya better sharpen your pencil Brotha... cuz Carl is gonna get ya.... Todd no worries... he already passed you and me.

Doc of Slow Boats :wink:

[RedDog]

Dang - I've been shopping ebay for motor scoots and should be focusing on shorties! I'm getting left behind in my ol' slow 22...

Good news Carl - keep it up. Let's see:

Cuddy (???) cabin under the bow - great initiative
CMIs - yep, first class bling and setup for future mods
IMCO shortie - showed the doubters up
what's next? Or what did I miss?

[Mr X]

Stop running it untill you get external steering.

[Carl C]

Byron ya better sharpen your pencil Brotha... cuz Carl is gonna get ya.... Todd no worries... he already passed you and me.

Doc of Slow Boats :wink: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:I doubt that, but I'm coming for y'all.:nilly:


Dang - I've been shopping ebay for motor scoots and should be focusing on shorties! Or what did I miss? You might be on to something. You didn't miss much, just little stuff like the exhaust tips, spark arrester, labbed Bravo 1 and lots of grab handles. I was going crazy when I pulled away from that Sunsation. He looked a lot faster. We ran side by side through some rough then hit it when the water smoothed out and I pulled away. When I looked at the gps I was hootin' and hollerin' like a kid on a roller coaster!:hyper::hyper::kingme:


Stop running it untill you get external steering. Ted, the steering will be done but that's not a one day job and I don't want the boat down for two weeks:wrench:. We don't get to boat year round up here.:(

[BigGrizzly]

That is great Carl. Be careful, steering is now a must have. What was the RPMs with the new speed. Like Doc I some times don't know why the shorty works well on some and not others. So far I see gains claimed of between 2 and 10(?) mph. At least your happy and some good data is coming out of this. Btw as people who ride with me know I have at least 2 GPS units on board all the time, this is good.

[BUIZILLA]

listen to Ted... :wink:

[Carl C]

Randy, I don't know what my rpms were but I had to be close to the limiter. Steering will come asap but I'm not grounding the boat meanwhile:wink:. Just did an oil change and switched to the new Mercury 25w40 synthetic blend. On Speedwake they are talking about one reason the Donzis are so fast is because we help each other so much. Thanks a lot for all the help.:yes:

[blackhawk]

Carl, congrats on the new speed! As far as the external steering you already planned on doing it so the only $.02 I will give you is you can easily do it in one day. So don't let that stop you.

[The Hedgehog]

Carl, congrats on the new speed! As far as the external steering you already planned on doing it so the only $.02 I will give you is you can easily do it in one day. So don't let that stop you.

About 4-6 hours for someone that knows what they are doing.

[BigGrizzly]

I understand Carl, I didn't listen when I put my motor in either, But I have a zillion hours in a Donzi and did hold back a bit until the steering came. I will admit that I did laundry more often than normal. So Be careful. YES we are fast because of the help but it is also because most of us can drive!:) Believe I have wone a lot because of driving and set up.!!

[Carl C]

I understand Carl, I didn't listen when I put my motor in either, But I have a zillion hours in a Donzi and did hold back a bit until the steering came. I will admit that I did laundry more often than normal. So Be careful. YES we are fast because of the help but it is also because most of us can drive!:) Believe I have wone a lot because of driving and set up.!! I'm listening and I'll try to make a decision and order one next week. I'm leaning toward the Imco. I'm not going to flip my boat now just because it is 3 mph faster. It actually is easier to drive now. It doesn't get out of shape if I trim too far down and if I trim too far up it just shoots a sweet roostertail until it hits the limiter. Today I did a short rooster run and the whole back of the boat was soaked when I stopped:confused:.

[BigGrizzly]

I don't think you will flip it either, just be careful, Remember you now have over 3500 pounds going over 78 miles an hour. I am using an Imco steering and love it . That is what most of use here on Lanier use. I am not downing anyone but I like the looks of the Imco better but that is a subjective opinion. As for quality they are all pretty much as good as each others.

[RedDog]

Seems as long as you don't continue to push it hard you can take your time on the steering.

I mean, I doubt you are going to be running hard that often - or at least you shouldn't. If you keep it below 70 it's like you didn't even do any mods.

[DonziJon]

Is there a "Break In" time... (hours) suggested for a new Shorty...Before you stand on it..or did Carl buy a used one? Just wondering. :confused: John

[The Hedgehog]

Is there a "Break In" time... (hours) suggested for a new Shorty...Before you stand on it..or did Carl buy a used one? Just wondering. :confused: John

I have wondered about before. I would think that if you used standard bravo break in procedures you will be fine. I doubt that he will break that lower first. If it is set up right he should be fine.

I did not worry too much about mine. I figured that it will be the hp and torque that gets mine not the wear. If Carl slaps a huffer on his he will be in the same situation.

[Carl C]

It was pre-broken in:wink:. Good to hear the endorsement for the Imco. If I remember right this system is only around 3k.:cool:

[p729lws]

Another IMCO fan here :cool: One hull penetration per side for the ram mount and lines:) IMCO won't provide the SS braided cover on the lines so I had those made. Randy likes the standard lines as it's easier to clean and also easier to keep an eye on the condition of the lines.

I'd lay off the throttle until you add it.

Dan

[osur866]

Is there a "Break In" time... (hours) suggested for a new Shorty...Before you stand on it..or did Carl buy a used one? Just wondering. :confused: John
I bought mine new and didn't see any break in instructions with the install instructions, I took it easy for about 2 hrs. then bricked it, changed oil after 5 hrs. and it all looked good. Course mines just behind a little small block. Steve

[yeller]

Now that you've used it a bit. Do you notice any differences in handling at all? Does the boat still take the same amount of trim and tab?

[BigGrizzly]

Carl and Steve, I was just thinking. Which shorty do each have, the 1,2 or 3 inch shorty. We ran into to a problem here. Two identical boats and they propped different and were different speeds. I finally noticed, regardless what the owners though they were different prop shaft heights. This happens when you buy on ebay. I had forgotten since Garry doesn't order anything but 3 inch short drives.

[Carl C]

Now that you've used it a bit. Do you notice any differences in handling at all? Does the boat still take the same amount of trim and tab? Dan, thanks for the pic. What is that where the ski tow hook would be? Yeller, it's all good! Tabs are exactly the same. I drop the port tab for 4 seconds before planing. This gets me near level running attitude. As before, I always run a little port tab to keep the boat level. For top speed I ease the tab and drive up together. Nothing changed there. Planing is the same. You won't be able to jam full throttle from a stop but I didn't do that anyway. Trimming too far in no longer pushes the bow down dangerously. That's a good improvement. I don't need as much positive trim for top speed and too much trim and the prop catches air. Another good improvement. I picked up a solid 3 mph and about 300 rpms. A very good thing! The ride and handling of the boat isn't a whole lot different but it does seem to run flatter and faster. Turning ability is better than ever, maybe due to the longer bullet. Like I said, it's all good, no bad. I don't know why this doesn't work on all 22s with the same X and engine. You should get one and try it. I never had a porpoising problem but it seems to have lessened what I had. Oh, and it looks cool too and gets attention at the launch ramp.:cool:

Randy, mine is a -2" in unpolished, rough aluminum and large prop shaft. 1.5 (stock) ratio.

[BigGrizzly]

I like the looks good at the launch ramp part.

[p729lws]

Dan, thanks for the pic. What is that where the ski tow hook would be?

Flag pole mount. Never used it so I can't tell you how well it works. I didn't think a flag would last too long at 78 mph, lol.

Dan

[p729lws]

I like the looks good at the launch ramp part.

That's why I don't like swim platforms. Why hide all the cool looking stuff hanging off the transom??? At least if you boat somewhere the water is fairly clear you can check out the goodies in the water as well as at the ramp. :yes:

Dan

[blackhawk]

Not to start a huge debate(because Carl's threads never turn out that way :D )but can I ask who has tried a shorty on a 22 and didn't see any results? Just curious.

[BigGrizzly]

I believe MOP had a friend who did an SS without any gain

[gcarter]

Not to start a huge debate(because Carl's threads never turn out that way :D )but can I ask who has tried a shorty on a 22 and didn't see any results? Just curious.
Catch22 got essentially no gain until he added the huffer. The shorty's respond well to extra Oomph. Since Jim's is a 454 Mag instead of a 496 HO, it just could be that Carl's extra 40 HP (everything else being equal) made the difference.
What I'm saying is the 22 hull w/a BBC @ 385 HP doesn't respond w/any additional speed, but a 425 HP powered 22 will.
Who knows?????

[Carl C]

Not to start a huge debate(because Carl's threads never turn out that way :D )but can I ask who has tried a shorty on a 22 and didn't see any results? Just curious. That just might be fodder for a new thread. I especially wonder why the shorty sometimes don't work on near identical boats? Case in point: hot shot removed this shorty from a 2001 496 22 for some reason. BTW George, that's 425 hp stock. I don't really see why power would be a big factor though. Less drag should equal more speed behind a 454 or a 525EFI.

[blackhawk]

That just might be fodder for a new thread. I especially wonder why the shorty sometimes don't work on near identical boats? Case in point: hot shot removed this shorty from a 2001 496 22 for some reason. BTW George, that's 425 hp stock. I don't really see why power would be a big factor though. Less drag should equal more speed behind a 454 or a 525EFI.

No problem I don't want to hijack your thread. But I 100% agree with you. Less drag and more forward thrust SHOULD equal more mph regardless of hp.

And I had to look up "fodder"! LOL

[Carl C]

No problem I don't want to hijack your thread. LOL That's not what I meant.:wink:

[blackhawk]

That's not what I meant.:wink:

Oh, got ya, you just meant it would be good "food" for another thread? ;)

[blackhawk]

Carl, FYI "ThruHull" on OSO has a brand new Zeiger system for sale. Full two ram system.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193051

[Mr X]

Carl, FYI "ThruHull" on OSO has a brand new Zeiger system for sale. Full two ram system.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193051
That is NOT a full system, it is a "power assist" system, uses the existing cable and helm. No hydraulic helm or lines used. Kind of cheesy IMO.

[blackhawk]

That is NOT a full system, it is a "power assist" system, uses the existing cable and helm. No hydraulic helm or lines used. Kind of cheesy IMO.

What? How do you know this? Does Zeiger not make a full system? I agree full hydraulic is the only way to go.

Edit: They do make a full hydraulic system. Looks like it could be a good deal for someone.

[gcarter]

What? How do you know this? Does Zeiger not make a full system? I agree full hydraulic is the only way to go.
Edit: They do make a full hydraulic system. Looks like it could be a good deal for someone.
The key to what Ted is speaking of is the key word "Brazil Valve"....which is actuated by the existing cable system.
NOT full hydraulic.

[Mr X]

What? How do you know this? Does Zeiger not make a full system? I agree full hydraulic is the only way to go.
Edit: They do make a full hydraulic system. Looks like it could be a good deal for someone.
Yes hey do make a full system, they also make an assist system.
Go back and re-read the link from OSO that you posted.

[blackhawk]

Yes hey do make a full system, they also make an assist system.
Go back and re-read the link from OSO that you posted.

LOL...Did you guys even bother to read my post? I said ThruHull(not outriggers) has a Zeiger(not Imco) full system for sale. See post #8 in my link.

"I have a brand new Zeiger Full to the helm, twin ram for single bravo I will let go cheap if anyone is interested, pm me"

[Mr X]

LOL...Did you guys even bother to read my post? I said ThruHull(not outriggers) has a Zeiger(not Imco) full system for sale. See post #8 in my link.
"I have a brand new Zeiger Full to the helm, twin ram for single bravo I will let go cheap if anyone is interested, pm me"

Guess I did not read that far down, sorry.... my bad :shocking:

[SilverBack]

Ted, What drive did you end up with? What steering? Did you go with an extension box?


On a side note....I went with a lot of IMCO stuff on my boat, manifolds, risers, extension box, drive, -2 lower and full hydraulic dual ram steering. I have been very pleased with the quality on every piece. I just thought that I would throw that out there because that is not the case with everything that you get a hold of these days.

[blackhawk]

Guess I did not read that far down, sorry.... my bad :shocking:

No worries! You just had me confused.

[gold-n-rod]

The key to what Ted is speaking of is the key word "Brazil Valve"....

I don't know about their valve, but I'm very familiar with their wax!!!!!!!!!!! :hangum:

[Carl C]

Blackhawk, thanks for the link. I need to look into this first. I may be able to get a good deal on a new Imco. I've never done this and would feel better with a new kit so I'm sure I get everything including instructions:shocking: and templates. Gotta do some homework first but will be busy for a few days.

Cookin' said the shorty slowed down his stingray because of the angle and trim he had to use.....something like that.

[osur866]

Carl and Steve, I was just thinking. Which shorty do each have, the 1,2 or 3 inch shorty. We ran into to a problem here. Two identical boats and they propped different and were different speeds. I finally noticed, regardless what the owners though they were different prop shaft heights. This happens when you buy on ebay. I had forgotten since Garry doesn't order anything but 3 inch short drives.
Grizz, mine also -2 shorty stamped right on the top, bought mine new not from ebay :wink: Steve

[Mr X]

Ted, What drive did you end up with? What steering? Did you go with an extension box?


On a side note....I went with a lot of IMCO stuff on my boat, manifolds, risers, extension box, drive, -2 lower and full hydraulic dual ram steering. I have been very pleased with the quality on every piece. I just thought that I would throw that out there because that is not the case with everything that you get a hold of these days.

The drive is not finalised yet, still experimenting with XR's and Imco's
The steering is built in the Mercury ITS system which has a built in setback
of 9 inches.

[Dr. Dan]

:smash: OK so my question is this and it might as well go here - seeings that Carls post is sooooo popular.

What is the correct method to determine the most efficient "Prop Shaft Height" when you make a mod of a new drive or add a Shorty? I see most guys through them on their boats...its a "Shorty" so it either works or it doesn't... I don't really see any changes or calculations going on other than - hey they make it in a 2" or whatever spacers are used.... so throw it on and run it method.

My reason for asking is because I have received an untold amount of pressure (from some peeps who will go nameless) to add Full Steering to my King Cobra. Although I know its a great improvement for all of the previous stated reasons,and I want to do it, and I will do something ... I am struggling with investing what will be all but $6000 in a System for the King - or just pulling the King and putting in an ITS or a IMCO SCX with a Box...how would I figure the right angles and height for an angled rise on the extension Box to most closely mimic my existing Drive or Prop Shaft Height?

Fact is I have no Mercury Steering or Drive issues, no Torque Steer, no Side Chine Surprise when ya launch and land on your rear quarter, no Left Tab Down method to drag into the next milestone Speed Increment, no drive related performance characteristic problems whatsoever.

:angel: And because of that I am very hesitant to do anything other than to add a Full Hydraulic Steering System to the existing King Cobra. My boat is a point and shoot ride...trim the drive - drive the boat. It's that simple...since an other member here got me driving with all but never using the tabs...I have not gone back....so its a sickness. I feel like a functioning alcholic - well except its an overpowered peice of heavy fiberglass.:doh:

I like the simplistic look of the ITS XR, I think the NXT's are really great looking ....and they are finally waking up to making them available to the Single Engine crowd, but I am seduced by the Beef and Braun of the IMCO SCX with a Box. Too me it just looks like it will handle 1000 HP and keep on ticking....which is important in the great chase Ted horsepower wars and great Skunk Works of the 540's vs the Supercharged Zx and Classic battles that plague this obsessive compulsive members only Club we have here!

I am not asking for conjecture, or random hey why don't you do this or my grandma tried this ....discussion... I really only wanna hear from the guys who have extension boxes and did some engineering or have valid input to report, or Ted who is the only guy on this board that actually ever lives these fantasy engineered results and whos real world opinion and experience seems to be one of the few that is backed up by actual - "I put my money where my mouth is experience", and not Computer Bench Racing. Which I think he deserves a Big Standing Ovation for BTW....:thumbsup::salute:
(Lets all not get excited- I realize and acknowledge there are many people here who-man up and do the changes to their boat discussed here, Carl included...:worthy:)

Fact is there are tons of existing aftermarket components which are available to these Boats...and to be honest ... its why we all have such a great time tweeking them. That is the Juice... as I have learned...many if not all of these boats are completely different from the next. Each X or effective X Dimension is different, my drive is 1.5" higher on average than a "standard bravo" whatever standard means...cause there is no standard in manufacturing these it seems....I think there were more like "Ranges of Acceptability" - punch the drive hole here, set this up like this, this time, try this... I mean look at the Shelby's? Well try too, becuase no one on here posts about their performance...but if the Raised X brought them to the 80 mph range... kinda makes this whole threads point. Less drag means quicker forward motion...

Sorry I am rambling...I'll shut up now... and just go spend my $6000 and keep my outdated and horrlbly ineffiecient King Cobra Drive....that still gives Roosters' fits.

Doc of Random Drive Correspondence:spongebob::wavey::hijack::salute:

[Carl C]

Doc, it sounds like your drive is pretty well dialed in. If I were in your shoes I'd pull that 500 EFI, swap out the cam, drop the compression to 8:1 and force feed it. When my time comes to repower I'll be looking for around 650 hp. Sorry, I know nothing about extension boxes on a 22.

It's not just the plethora of parts that keeps our boats running strong, it's also the camaraderie of us Donzi loyalists.

There is a cool quote in this months (Aug) "Boating" magazine. It's an editorial about a guy who decides that, rather than buy new, he'll restore a "classic" and make money. Instead he lost money. The quote:

"As I found out, a boat isn't a 'classic' - at least in terms of resale value - unless there's a web site for it with active forums. Check out the ones for Bertrams and Donzis."

Steve, there is a world of difference between an 18 and 22 Classic. I'm sorry the shorty didn't work out for you but I think one factor is the weight difference. I've got a lot of weight pushing down the stern. A BBC with heavy CMIs, two batteries, anchor box, Donzis hull strengthening kit and other small things that add up to a ton of weight keeping that prop in the water.

Ted, everyone is anxiously awaiting some word on the Viper boat. At least throw us a bone.:wink:

[BigGrizzly]

OK Doc, I can tell you that your boat and drive does not suffer from the malities of the Mercs. First it is stronger, the steering is tighter and drive doesn't wobble like them. The extra prop height helps but the hydrodynamics of the drive itself is the plus with the slightly raised prop height. I have watched you drive for years and it is either the combination of drive, boat and your driving or just plain dumb luck. You and your boat doesn't suffer from those issues. If you raise the prop height just the extra 1/2 inch I doubt there would be any significant difference. However with the IMCO which BTW is rated for the 1,000HP and they have better hydrodynamics then Merc. Garry has installed many Imcos with and without extension boxes. He never uses the 1 or 2 inch drives, only the 3 inch shorty. His real reasoning is that "you can make it longer but shorter is a big expense." I have only driven pythons and various cats with extension boxes and shortys . As you probably know is that the setback allows the prop to run in cleaner water and makes the boat seem longer. The point is that your boat is a great combo of speed and handling and one of the fastest and best handling on the registry. OK your not the fastest, but neither am I. My wife has ridden with you, Tomahawk and several others, she deans your boat one of the best riding ones out there! My personal opinion is do what you do best and style your boat. You drive a class act and you are a class act. Your like my sister in law, She puts a piece of drift wood on a wall it looks like art. I do it and it looks like misplaced fire wood. If your bent on doing it two things, wait till Ted (Mr. Clean:wink:)is done and/or go Imco all the way. It is not smart to mix and fix. If I had the $ I would go the whole Imco route. Garry has put them on many boats to cure the broken merc problems. The new drive is suppose to be as strong as a #6, and from what I have seen it seems to be true.

[blackhawk]

Doc, can I ask why it would be $6k for your steering? The only difference should be the wing plate, correct?

Less drag is only part of the equation of why a shorty should be faster. They also provide more forward thrust becuase the drive now takes less trim to get to the surface. Less trim angle equals more forward thrust. This is why boats with raised Xs or a shorty also ride/fly flatter.

[roadtrip se]

I say do the steering on the Cobra and hope that you keep giving the Rooster fits next season.

Don't change a thing....

[Mr X]

Ok,
Almost finished..had a bit of a setback
here's a bone.....tripple digits.:eek!: :) no kidding.
More to come in the next post after next weekend.

[Carl C]

Ok,
Almost finished..had a bit of a setback
here's a bone.....tripple digits.:eek!: :) no kidding.
More to come in the next post after next weekend.
WooHoo:woot::clap::worthy:

[Rootsy]

Ok,
Almost finished..had a bit of a setback
here's a bone.....tripple digits.:eek!: :) no kidding.
More to come in the next post after next weekend.


Yeah but it doesn't really count... You didn't achieve that with a hacked up alpha and a mouse while racing an entire paced poker run... :nilly:

[Mr X]

Yeah but it doesn't really count... You didn't achieve that with a hacked up alpha and a mouse while racing an entire paced poker run... :nilly:
Thanks for that "Senator" Blutarski!

[Rootsy]

Sorry Ted, the "Senator" would be Matty.. speaking of which I haven't heard from him in a while...

[Mr X]

Sorry Jamie.....damn altimers kicking in!!

[roadtrip se]

Good chatting with you today.

Now get her done and make plans for the weekend before Memorial Day, 2009 at Lake Cumberland....

Quick question? Have you tried the Mercury Sportsmaster Splash Plate on the beast, instead of the stainless cav plate that comes with the IMCO?
If not, what about some real world experience with the bigger boats with Sportmasters? Are they holding up? Any performance difference?

Would certainly appreciate an opinion...

[Mr X]

RT,
only one I know of was a 22 Shelby with a Sportmaster, it was not happy.
Ill handeling.....almost undrivable.
They are holding up perfectly on the big boats, and they work well!

[BigGrizzly]

We have had similar problems with sportmasters too, what giv?