Lake George DEC Cops

[ALF]

DEC officers are focusing their attention on Donzi exhaust noise. A couple weeks ago my wife and I loaded our camping gear in the 1988 18' and docked at the DEC registration office on Glen Island. A DEC officer promptly informed me he was going to take a DB reading to see if my boat was in compliance. Everyone at the dock could not believe it. I noted this boat was built by Donzi with this exhaust, at that point he made it very clear he is aware of Donzi and "they are still building them like this". 90DB is the acceptable limit, his meter registered 91.8 . In his words, "since we were nice people" he issued a written warning that will be kept on file and I'm supposed to fix the boat. ??? If I'm caught on the lake again a fine will be issued. He told Jenny and I we were not the first Donzi owners to be cited recently. This is my 4th year on LK George with this boat and never had a problem. Their efforts would be better spent chasing the two strokers spewing oil into the lake. This is most likely a revenue generating directive from New York State. During this year's Americade NYS State Police conducted road blocks at the LK George exits of the Northway for the sole purpose to inspecting bikes and their operators, targeting pipes, DOT approved helmets, inspections and any reason to issue a ticket. Area business owners are still PO'd about this and are demanding answers from state and local law enforcement.
If you're a Donzi owner who enjoys the lake, beware.

[Air 22]

I have a 22C and grew up on LG..Class of 1986...try avoiding the lion's den when making reservations:eek!: :hangum:I sure would...there are other options...

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/24474.html

good luck:wink:...NYS has some of the more stupid ways of generating income and its alot of BS...hope you have fun on the lake..its sure is beautiful there!!:cool:

[boxy]

I've witnessed the "Aww Shucks you seem like good folks" routine first hand.

Does someone have a copy of the regulations they are using? During the test he placed his yard stick on the pipe, thereby making the meter 3 feet from the exhaust, but in reading the ticket later I seem to recall a requirement that the meter be no closer to the water than 4 feet, and the exhaust on the boat I was on exits the transom almost at water level.

I've also heard that if you place your boat in reverse, and get somebody to hold on to a dock post for dear life you can drop your db level by a couple of points ........ :doh::doh:

[Sweet little 16]

new york uses the sae j2005 which has very specific specs the tester must be certified to use the meter, the meter must be certified and calibrated on a regular basis most of which are not but you have to want to fight it means going to court sae j 2005 is a stationary test that takes into account wind and surroundings i didn't think the test could be given at a dock where the stern is next to the dock reverb and echo, thought they had to tie you off with the stern past the end of the dock and then tie off their boat to your stern at 3 feet
but this will all get worse as the lgpc and the dec loose funding cause of the major shortage in the state budget they will have to make up for it and usually the nice guy thing when getting a ticket means they are giving you ticket that makes more money for them as in their dept or town then the state we have a near by town that is a speed trap they pull over everyone for speeding then when it comes to crunch time they say listen a speeding ticket means points and higher insurance how about we write a ticket for failure to obey a posted town ordinance no points same fine as speeding
speeding 125 bucks 15 dollars to the town 110 bucks to the state
failure to obey ordinance 125 bucks 25 dollars to the state 100 bucks to the town
so maybe if they find you on the lake after a warning that ticket makes them more money??


http://www.nyss.com/NYS.html#p44

[boxy]

So where do you find the criteria for sae j2005 ??

The stern was facing away from shore, past the dock.

[Sweet little 16]

J2005

ISSUED
DEC91
1991-12 Issued
400 Commonwealth Drive, Warrendale, PA 15096-0001

SURFACE
VEHICLE
RECOMMENDED
PRACTICE
Submitted for recognition as an American National Standard
STATIONARY SOUND LEVEL MEASUREMENT PROCEDURE FOR PLEASURE MOTORBOATS

1. Scope—This SAE Recommended Practice establishes the procedure for determining if pleasure motorboats
have effective exhaust muffling means when operating in the stationary mode. It is intended as a guide toward
standard practice and is subject to change to keep pace with experience and technical advances.
1.1 Purpose—This document specifies guidelines for stationary sound level measurements for boats with abovewater
exhaust systems.
References 2.
2.1 Applicable Publication—The following publications form a part of this specification to the extent specified
herein.
2.1.1 ANSI PUBLICATION—Available from the American National Standards Institute, Inc., 11 West 42nd Street,
New York, NY 10036-8002.
ANSI S1.4-1983 and S1.4A-1985—Specifications for Sound Level Meters
2.2 Related Publications—The following publications are provided for information purposes only and are not a
required part of this document.
2.2.1 SAE PUBLICATION—Available from SAE, 400 Commonwealth Drive, Warrendale, PA 15096-0001.
SAE J34—Exterior Sound Level Measurement Procedure for Pleasure Motorboats
2.2.2 ANSI PUBLICATIONS—Available from the American National Standards Institute, Inc., 11 West 42nd Street,
New York, NY 10036-8002.
ANSI S1.1-1960(1976)—Acoustical Terminology
ANSI S1.13-1971(R1986)—Methods for the Measurement of Sound Pressure Levels
SAE Technical Standards Board Rules provide that: “This report is published by SAE to advance the state of technical and engineering sciences. The use of this report is entirely
voluntary, and its applicability and suitability for any particular use, including any patent infringement arising therefrom, is the sole responsibility of the user.”
SAE reviews each technical report at least every five years at which time it may be reaffirmed, revised, or cancelled. SAE invites your written comments and suggestions.
QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS DOCUMENT: (724) 772-8512 FAX: (724) 776-0243
TO PLACE A DOCUMENT ORDER; (724) 776-4970 FAX: (724) 776-0790
SAE WEB ADDRESS http://www.sae.org
Printed in U.S.A.
Copyright 1991 Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc.
All rights reserved.
SAE J2005 Issued DEC91


Instrumentation—The following instrumentation shall be used for the measurement required: 3.
3.1 A sound level meter which meets ANSI Standard S1.4-1983 Type 1 or Type 2 Specification for Sound Level
Meters.

3.2 A microphone windscreen that does not affect the overall reading by more than ±0.5 dB(A).

3.3 A sound level calibrator. (See 5.3.)
Procedure 4.

4.1 Measurement Site—A suitable site is a body of water free of large obstructions or reflective surfaces such as
buildings, boats other than those involved in this procedure, large embankments or breakwaters, etc. for a
minimum distance of 8 m (25 ft) from the boat being measured. The boat being tested shall either be moored
to a dock or lashed to another boat. If moored to a dock, the dock shall be of open construction so that it
presents a minimum of reflecting surfaces. If the measurement is made in open water, the boat being
evaluated shall be lashed to the measurement boat to prevent relative motion and to allow positioning of the
microphone in the prescribed location. The measurement boat shall be positioned to minimize reflected
sound.

4.2 Boat Operation—The engine shall be operated at low idle speed within the engine manufacturer's
recommended operating range, in neutral gear if so equipped. For motorboats without a neutral gear, the
engine shall be operated at its lowest operational speed. The engine shall be operated for a sufficient amount
of time to allow water to flow through the exhaust system before taking measurements.

4.3 Measurements

4.3.1 The microphone shall be placed at a distance of 1.2 to 1.5 m (4 to 5 ft) above the water and no closer than
1 m (3.3 ft) from the vertical projection of any part of the boat in the area adjacent to the exhaust outlet(s).

4.3.2 The meter shall be set for slow response and the A-weighting network.

4.3.3 The observer reading the meter shall not be closer than arm's length from the microphone to minimize sound
reflections.

4.3.4 The applicable reading shall be the average sound level measured during a period when the background
sound level is at least 10 dB lower than the measured sound level. Background sound level includes wind
effects, noise from boats other than the one being measured, wave action, boat wakes, and other extraneous
noises. Peak readings of intermittent sound levels created by wave slaps or changes in sound level due to
wave action and/or engine speed variation shall not be included in the applicable reading.

4.3.5 The observer shall record the applicable reading and the background sound levels taken immediately before
and immediately after the applicable reading.
General Requirements 5.

5.1 The measurements shall be conducted only by persons qualified by training to perform these measurements.

5.2 Proper use of all test instrumentation is essential to obtain valid measurements. Operating manuals or other
literature furnished by the instrument manufacturer should be consulted for both recommended operation of
the instrument, and precautions to be observed.

5.3 Proper acoustical calibration shall comprise the complete measurement system including extension cables,
etc. Field calibration shall be performed immediately before and after each test sequence.


-2-

SAE J2005 Issued DEC91

5.4 A measurement shall be invalid if changes in the background sound level affect the applicable reading.

5.5 The use of the word "shall" in the procedure is to be understood to be mandatory, while the word "should" is to
be understood as advisory.
PREPARED BY THE SAE MARINE SOUND LEVEL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE SAE MARINE TECHNICAL

COMMITTEE AND THE SAE SPECIALIZED VEHICLE AND EQUIPMENT SOUND LEVEL COMMITTEE


-3-

SAE J2005 Issued DEC91

APPENDIX A
This procedure has been developed as a guide for governmental agencies to enforce the requirement for
effective muffling means in pleasure motorboats. The measured level is not an indication of maximum
operational sound levels.

In most applications involving thru-transom exhaust the microphone location should be 1 m (3.3 ft) aft of the
intersection of the vertical plane of the aft-most part of the transom and the vertical plane of the port-most or
starboard-most part of the gunnel at the specified height of 1.2 to 1.5 m (4 to 5 ft) above the surface of the
water with the microphone oriented toward the exhaust outlet(s).

Care must be taken to avoid erroneous readings due to sound reflections by proper positioning of the
enforcement boat such that minimal extension of the enforcement hull protrudes into the area surrounding the
microphone during measurements.

Only one enforcement boat shall be in the area where measurements are
being taken.

Sound level limits should generally have tolerance band to compensate for variations in test sites, boats, and
weather conditions. Background information is included in the SAE J2005 Rationale Statement.


-4-

SAE J2005 Issued DEC91

Rationale—The primary method of enforcing boat noise regulations by the states which currently have boat
noise legislation is based on the pass-by noise test procedure SAE J34, the Exterior Sound Level
Measurement Procedure for Pleasure Motorboats. SAE J34 has some major drawbacks when utilized
as a sound level measurement technique for law enforcement purposes. The procedure requires that a
sound level meter be located at a precise distance from a measured course through which a boat is
travelling at maximum speed, requiring extreme skill and care on the part of the boat operator. Locating
an acceptable test site to perform these high speed tests is a problem often encountered by enforcement
officers when utilizing pass-by sound level measurements.

Most complaints about boat noise originate with boats which are operated without exhaust mufflers.

SAE J2005, the Stationary Sound Level Measurement Procedure for Pleasure Motorboats, was
developed at the request of law enforcement officials who requested an exhaust noise sound level
measurement procedure which can be performed in the safest possible manner and without the need for
a special test course.

SAE J2005 can be performed at a dock or in open water with the boat tethered to an enforcement boat.
To perform the measurement a boat with above-water exhaust is operated at idle speed in neutral or at
its lowest operational speed. The sound level meter is positioned 1.2 to 1.5 m above the water surface
and at a distance of 1 m (3.3 ft) from the side of the boat through which the exhaust exits while the
average sound level is measured and recorded. Those boats which are excessively noisy during
stationary mode operation are considered to have ineffective exhaust muffling. Consequently, this
procedure provides law enforcement officials with a safe method of evaluating exhaust noise levels which
can be readily performed anywhere on the water.

Relationship of SAE Standard to ISO Standard—Not applicable.
Application—This SAE Recommended Practice establishes the procedure for determining if pleasure
motorboats have effective exhaust muffling means when operating in the stationary mode. It is intended
as a guide toward standard practice and is subject to change to keep pace with experience and technical
advances.
Reference Section
SAE J34—Exterior Sound Level Measurement Procedure for Pleasure Motorboats
ANSI S1.1-1960(1976)—Acoustical Terminology
ANSI S1.13-1971(R1986)—Methods for the Measurement of Sound Pressure Levels
ANSI S1.4-1983 and S1.4A-1985—Specifications for Sound Level Meters
Developed by the SAE Marine Sound Level Subcommittee
Sponsored by the SAE Marine Technical Committee and the SAE Specialized Vehicle and Equipment
Sound Level Committee


b

[BERTRAM BOY]

...try avoiding the lion's den when making reservations


Dwight, what exactly does that mean?

Alf, I sent you a PM.

[BUIZILLA]

so what was the static reading with the engine off... according to the test procedures it must be 10 db different?

[ALF]

Sweet little 16, I'm dizzy just reading that.
I had to back up to the end of the dock and he used what I thought was a 3' stick for distance to the pipe. There were many other boats docking and leaving at the same time and how accurate was the meter ?

If I wanted a silent boat I would have bought one. It's worth paying the fine.

[chappy]

If they're gonna pop our little classics, look for an uproar from the big twin boys.

[ALF]

I have a 22C and grew up on LG..Class of 1986...try avoiding the lion's den when making reservations:eek!: :hangum:I sure would...there are other options...
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/24474.html
good luck:wink:...NYS has some of the more stupid ways of generating income and its alot of BS...hope you have fun on the lake..its sure is beautiful there!!:cool:

When you reserve a island campsite, DEC requires a stop at their Gen Island office to conform your reservation and let them know you arrived. Let me know if there is a way around that.

[Air 22]

Cliff, I believe B2boy meant NOT to run your boat over the the dec office to get a lake permit...

Thanks Scott....
15 Reply's to the post and Cliff doesn't get it? RBTL...:doh::bonk::nilly:

[Sweet little 16]

ALF, Bertram,
I know it's very confusing and there in lie's the loop hole this is not just a device and a test that a part time barney fife can do just grab the meter from behind the counter and take a reading
did you see him calibrate before the test
what were the before and after readings and were they noted on the warning or noted by the officer???
did any of the boats pass behind your boat within 25 feet??
did any waves/wakes come in during testing???
but the big thing is you have to want to fight it and if you are going to be on the lake again your not going to win any popularity contests and it might mean cutting your boating short and a return trip after the season so they know they have you in a pinch
I believe once you get a pass slip it is good for the season and you don't have to submit to another test just show the pass slip
wonder if you can ask to see their certification, you have to submit but i wonder if you have to dock if you are out on the lake can you make them tie off and test right there???
does the dec have boats on the lake?? or just the lg park commission???
we were told that any thing on the water is lgpc and on the dock was local law enforcement?? as our boat got hit at the town docks and we were told by a lg village cop if the boat was on the dock not in the water he could help but the boat was at the dock in the water and the lgpc patrol needed to respond and we waited an hour or so for one to show up wasn't major damage so they had more important things to do

[BUIZILLA]

so what was the static reading with the engine off... according to the test procedures it must be 10 db different?
ahem.....

[boxy]

so what was the static reading with the engine off... according to the test procedures it must be 10 db different?

He calibrated everything. It took an hour to do a db check. The upside was that I got to float in front of roger's Rock with 3 great friends while we were waiting for the rest of the group to return....

[DON N.]

THE BACK OF THE BOAT DOESN'T LOOK PAST THE END OF DOCK CLIFF . AND
AS FOR SLIP-IN'S CLIFF'S BOAT HAS OVAL EXHAUST . BY THE WAY , SAME PLACE I GOT PINCHED 3 OR 4 YEARS AGO . TEST WAS ALSO DONE INCORRECTLY AS THEY PICKED THE EXHAUST FLAP UP AND INSERTED THE MEASURING STICK , AND DID THE TEST AS I STARTED THE BOAT . AND WHEN I ASKED IF HE WAS CERTIFIED TO OPERATE THE EQUIPMENT AND ASKED FOR PROOF . HE REALLY GOT PISSY . ( TOLD ME HE COULD HAVE MY BOAT REMOVED IMMEDIATLY FROM LAKE ) . SO I AVOID GLEN ISLAND :shark:

[Air 22]

You can REFUSE the DB Test..require them to have a search warrant before they board your boat if requesting so.

This comming from a buddy officer in NH..NY laws the same? Its interesting what the cops get away with these days...:hangum:

[The X Man]

I got stopped on Lake George 2 years ago and tested at 88 db with corsa mufflers. I've been stopped twice this year and handed the officer my pink slip (test slip). One time he said "oh, I was the one who did the test, but you sound load so stay away from shore"?????? What a comment,eh.
88db still sounds pretty good though.

[zelatore]

The three comments above sum it up:

1- yes, you have the right to question the officer's technique and training but if you do you're guaranteed to piss them off.

2-even if you pass the test, they may think you're too loud and will still harass you.
This can be explained: even though the dB scale is weighted to measure similar to the way the human ear ‘hears’ sound, some frequencies still register on the meter louder or quieter than we hear them. For example a Harley and a sport bike might both register the same dB, but to the human ear one would sound louder. Couple this fact with #3 below to explain the second part of this point.

3-basically, most cops these days could care less about law enforcement and are more interested in ego re-enforcement.

I went to school at a collage that had a large law enforcement program. Most every kid in that program was a wanna-be Dirty Harry who got off on bossing people around. They were the same kids that a year or two earlier were high school bullies. Making lesser 'civilians' do what they say is their biggest thrill. It has nothing to do with the law and everything to do with carrying a badge and gun.

To be fare, I assume not all cops are ego stroking jerks. Just the ones pulling low-end jobs like traffic duty. Heck, I've got some clients who are retired cops and they seem like nice enough guys. I just figure that the ones who are actually good at the job and have a real sense of serving the community rise above the lowest rung of the ladder and we don't see them out there with radar guns and dB meters. You know, because they're actually out fighting crime.

So, to sum it up, you can fight it. You may well win to boot. In fact, more people SHOULD fight BS tickets. But then expect to be stopped for 'routine' boardings every time they see you out there and to constantly be looking over your shoulder.

And don't get me started about how screwed up the legal system is when you are assumed to be guilty when you are given a ticket unless/until you prove yourself innocent. Something about that sounds a little backward, doesn't it?

Gee, and I'm not even that old and I sound like a bitter old man! Imagine what the next 20 years should do for my outlook!

[BUIZILLA]

He calibrated everything. It took an hour to do a db check. this still didn't answer my original question... so, he spent one hour playing with his magic wand toy, and never measured the static, and BASIC, 10db offset requirement for the test?? :smash:

[boxy]

this still didn't answer my original question... so, he spent one hour playing with his magic wand toy, and never measured the static, and BASIC, 10db offset requirement for the test?? :smash:
He measured everything.
First thing he did was calibrate the db meter.
Then he tested the wind, too much wind no test.
Then he tested ambient noise, too much noise no test.
The he made sure we were past the dock.
Then he had the boat's operator start the boat, and let it run until the system was full of water.
Then I grabbed a dock post, the boat somehow slipped into reverse, and the test began.

[BUIZILLA]

so, I guess the static noise with nobody else around was 91 to make the test ticket conclusive??

hard to believe that 91 static basis number....

oh vey..........

[boxy]

so, I guess the static noise with nobody else around was 91 to make the test ticket conclusive??
hard to believe that 91 static basis number....
oh vey..........

Jim, is this the section of the specifications that you are refering to .......

4.3.4 The applicable reading shall be the average sound level measured during a period when the background
sound level is at least 10 dB lower than the measured sound level. Background sound level includes wind
effects, noise from boats other than the one being measured, wave action, boat wakes, and other extraneous
noises. Peak readings of intermittent sound levels created by wave slaps or changes in sound level due to
wave action and/or engine speed variation shall not be included in the applicable reading.

???????

I think we posted a 92db reading, and if I am reading section 4.3.4 correctly, it says that the surrounding background noise level had to be 82db or less.
Which I'm sure it was, and I'm sure it is written on the report.

If section 4.3.4 isn't what we are talking about, then help me out.

[BUIZILLA]

Where the hell did 91 come from? Be nice if ya told us which ticket you are babbling about :nilly: :nilly:
your drooling, the spec is for 10 less than the ticket, so anything 91 and lower is a base reading.... what does the ticket say for a BASE and BASIC reading?????????? :confused: or does it not say anything?? if that was omitted, the ticket is void, plain and simple.... that's my point...

WHAT WAS THE BASIS NUMBER THAT THE TICKET WAS WRITTEN AGAINST????

I find it hard to believe that 92 didn't pass and that 82 was static here, for gawds sake the average car/TRUCK INTERIOR NUMBER is louder than 82 going down the road...

IF THEY DID DB READINGS AT A COLLEGIATE FOOTBALL GAME, EVERYBODY WOULD GET A TICKET

[Air 22]

Interesting...:smash:

http://www.cpperformance.com/TechTips/state_noise_laws.htm


The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed three methods of measuring watercraft sound, including that of PWC:

SAE J34: The most precise measurement available, taken of a boat at a distance of 50ft with wide-open throttle (the near maximum noise of the boat). Although great for engineering standards, it is difficult for enforcement purposes in the field. The Coast Guard recommends 86 decibels (dBA), which most states have adopted as law.

SAE J2005: This measures the engine sound at idle with the microphone 1.5 m away. SAE recommends a limit of 90dbA for this method, which does not account for the speed or power of the boat.

SAE J1970: In realizing the enforcement difficulties of the previous methods, SAE designed this shoreline noise test enabling regulations keeping the boat under 75 dBA at 50 ft. by operation, not mechanics. The operator is responsible for controlling the noise of the boat.


http://www.boater101.net/Course/documents/NY/NYstatelaws.pdf

Scroll down to SL 8...:nilly:

[zelatore]

:eek!::shocking::eek!:
Looking through the fines listed above, one state stands out.

Anybody from Illinois (ella-noise?) care to comment on this noise penalty?:

"Misdemeanor/Minimum $1500 and/or 6 months in jail, Maximum $2500 and/or up to 1 year in jail"

So, most states have penalties of $50, $100, or even $500. A couple can go as high as $1000. But IL has a MINIMUM of $1500 with a jail time option??

Somebody needs to slap these people. Hard. Repeatedly.

[zelatore]

I also noticed this little tidbit in the NY regs:

• If under 10 years old: You must be accompanied onboard by a person at least 18 years
old.
• If 10 to 18 years of age: You must be accompanied by a person over 18, or hold a
Boating Safety Education Certificate.
• If over 18: You may operate a motorboat alone.

So, your 10 yr old and 18 yr old sons want to take the boat out. It's OK if the 10 yr old drives and the 18 yr old supervises, but if the 18 yr old drives, it's illegal. :confused::smash:

[BUIZILLA]

hell with noise...

you should have been at Matheson today and seen the Customs & Immigration search/arrest fiasco going on.... 3 uniformed inspectors and 2 uniformed cops roaming the docks, as soon as you unloaded they jumped onboard your boat without even asking permission to board and opened everything and searched, wrote down EVERY FL number they searched, and did it again when you returned.... they jumped on and searched my manager's Scarab before he even had time to tie the first dockline to a pole... if you left and returned with more or less people than you started with on their notes, they were ALL OVER you... one arrest took place on the boat right next to me, hauled his ass right off, everyone had to help his wife/girlfriend/whatever get a 32 Concept back on the trailer, he went to jail... they didn't bother me and the Critter, I can barely fit a cooler in my boat, but they REALLY harassed/checked a LOT of other boaters and complete family's.. nonstop all day I heard from the Coastie that was there... they siezed one boat for a forged/changed HIN today, they got another boat Friday in broad daylight with about 120# of coke in hidden compartments.. a few arrests today for open warrants, 2 vessels siezed for engines with no serial number plates yada yada...

unbelievable...

[zelatore]

Well, customs and immigration is probably part of homeland security now, so they're above the law...after all, we don't want the terrorists to win!
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(terrorist!-boo!)

[Sweet little 16]

I also noticed this little tidbit in the NY regs:
• If under 10 years old: You must be accompanied onboard by a person at least 18 years
old.
• If 10 to 18 years of age: You must be accompanied by a person over 18, or hold a
Boating Safety Education Certificate.
• If over 18: You may operate a motorboat alone.
So, your 10 yr old and 18 yr old sons want to take the boat out. It's OK if the 10 yr old drives and the 18 yr old supervises, but if the 18 yr old drives, it's illegal. :confused::smash:


your 18 yr old can't supervise a 9 year old your 19 yr old can, a 9 yr old can't be alone, a 10 yr old to a 18yr old can drive with a 19 yr on board,
once a 10 yr old or an 18 yr old pass a safe boater course the can drive alone

[Sweet little 16]

Has anyone actually found the NY State regulations yet?


i posted them here but here is the link http://www.nyss.com/NYS.html#p44


they need to follow the sae j2005 standard

[Sweet little 16]

SL8: Muffling Devices
The noise from a boat’s engine should not exceed 75 dB(a) when measured from the shoreline consistent with testing standards listed in SAE J1970, or 90 dB measured when stationary, according to testing standards described in SAE J2005. The SAE standards are set forth by the Society of Automotive Engineers. To meet these noise standards, motorboat engines must have to be equipped with factory-installed mufflers, exhaust water manifolds or other effective muffling system.
EXACTLY why I was wondering about what standards the NY law calls for.. He clearly used a 1mtr lawstick at an angle above the exhaust tip, we have photo's. The standard calls for the test to be done 1.5 Mtr BEHIND the exhaust, and 4 - 5' above the water....
Unless LG has their own laws, Cliff you need to file a protest against the test and tester and have the ticket tossed out..


the standard call for 4 to 5 feet and no closer than 3.3 feet from any vertical projection of the boat near the exhaust outlets

4.3 Measurements

4.3.1 The microphone shall be placed at a distance of 1.2 to 1.5 m (4 to 5 ft) above the water and no closer than
1 m (3.3 ft) from the vertical projection of any part of the boat in the area adjacent to the exhaust outlet(s).

4.3.2 The meter shall be set for slow response and the A-weighting network.

4.3.3 The observer reading the meter shall not be closer than arm's length from the microphone to minimize sound
reflections.

so if the stick is 3.3 feet long it would need to be held at at point atleast .7 inches above the water line on the transom near the exhaust outlet but it would need to be vertical not at an angle

also if he can grab the mic with his other hand the test is no good looks like he is holding the mic with a bent arm??? or is that the meter??? a bent arm is less than an arm's length

[boxy]

hell with noise...
you should have been at Matheson today and seen the Customs & Immigration search/arrest fiasco going on.... 3 uniformed inspectors and 2 uniformed cops roaming the docks, as soon as you unloaded they jumped onboard your boat without even asking permission to board and opened everything and searched, wrote down EVERY FL number they searched, and did it again when you returned.... they jumped on and searched my manager's Scarab before he even had time to tie the first dockline to a pole... if you left and returned with more or less people than you started with on their notes, they were ALL OVER you... one arrest took place on the boat right next to me, hauled his ass right off, everyone had to help his wife/girlfriend/whatever get a 32 Concept back on the trailer, he went to jail... they didn't bother me and the Critter, I can barely fit a cooler in my boat, but they REALLY harassed/checked a LOT of other boaters and complete family's.. nonstop all day I heard from the Coastie that was there... they siezed one boat for a forged/changed HIN today, they got another boat Friday in broad daylight with about 120# of coke in hidden compartments.. a few arrests today for open warrants, 2 vessels siezed for engines with no serial number plates yada yada...
unbelievable...

Well, customs and immigration is probably part of homeland security now, so they're above the law...after all, we don't want the terrorists to win!

(terrorist!-boo!)

So one day, one dock, 120 lbs of coke, 1 stolen boat, 2 boats with stolen motors, and multiple felony arrests, and you have a problem with the searches conducted ????

[boxy]

the standard call for 4 to 5 feet and no closer than 3.3 feet from any vertical projection of the boat near the exhaust outlets
4.3 Measurements
4.3.1 The microphone shall be placed at a distance of 1.2 to 1.5 m (4 to 5 ft) above the water and no closer than
1 m (3.3 ft) from the vertical projection of any part of the boat in the area adjacent to the exhaust outlet(s).
4.3.2 The meter shall be set for slow response and the A-weighting network.
4.3.3 The observer reading the meter shall not be closer than arm's length from the microphone to minimize sound
reflections.
so if the stick is 3.3 feet long it would need to be held at at point atleast .7 inches above the water line on the transom near the exhaust outlet but it would need to be vertical not at an angle
also if he can grab the mic with his other hand the test is no good looks like he is holding the mic with a bent arm??? or is that the meter??? a bent arm is less than an arm's length


On most boats, placing the stick on the exhaust outlet and holding it a the angle he is holding it in the picture would probably satisfy the test requirements because the thru-hulls are usually at least a foot or two above the water. The problem here is that Cliff's exhaust outlets were partially submerged when the test was conducted. They are a 3 or 4 inch oval, so there is no way the meter was at least 4 feet off of the water given their height and the angle of the stick.

[Trueser]

:eek!::shocking::eek!:
Looking through the fines listed above, one state stands out.
Anybody from Illinois (ella-noise?) care to comment on this noise penalty?:
"Misdemeanor/Minimum $1500 and/or 6 months in jail, Maximum $2500 and/or up to 1 year in jail"
So, most states have penalties of $50, $100, or even $500. A couple can go as high as $1000. But IL has a MINIMUM of $1500 with a jail time option??
Somebody needs to slap these people. Hard. Repeatedly.

Never heard of anyone having trouble.

[zelatore]

So one day, one dock, 120 lbs of coke, 1 stolen boat, 2 boats with stolen motors, and multiple felony arrests, and you have a problem with the searches conducted ????

Speaking only for myself...

The problem is with the way the searches were conducted. What was the probable cause? Do they need permission to board? The image portrayed here is one of families out for a day on the water being harassed needlessly; their boats being boarded without permission even before they get to the dock (what’s the rush?) then the officers all but trashing the boat tearing through every nook and cranny in a fevered search for….um, er, something. All because the boater was guilty of being on the water. I always get upset when the local gestapo gets a bug up their collective asses and starts conduction blanket stops/searches. It reeks of a local municipality trolling for cash and has very little to do with serving the public good.

I think somebody else might have mentioned it elsewhere, but this reminds me of a recent Americade where the cops set up a 'checkpoint' and pulled over every single bike that came by for a 'safety inspection'. (btw, this is Americade, not Hollister or Sturgis, it’s a pretty family-friendly crowd, not a bunch of hell-raisers) No probable cause other than they were on two wheels. While they were doing this, they were ignoring cars going by with obvious issues - they only stopped bikes. The same thing happens regularly with the TN state police at the Dragon. It's just plain illegal. What if they said 'hey, let's just pull over every black guy that drives by'? Same concept, but we wouldn’t allow that, would we? It's a fundamental civil rights violation. But they can get away with doing this to boaters or bikers because we’re not seen as a minority nor are we organized enough to be heard by politicians when we complain. If we even bother to complain at all. At least the bikers have the AMA to lobby for them – that’s why I’m still a member even if I don’t agree with everything they do.

So yes, they found one drug runner and busted somebody for potentially having a stolen boat and/or motor. Was that good? Probably. Was it worth subjecting you, me, and everybody else to needless harassment? Probably not. As for the wanted felons they got on outstanding warrants, why did they sweep them up randomly instead of just going and targeting them specifically? Seems better than just setting up a giant bust and hoping the bad guys come to you.

The biggest problem is the precedent it sets. The more we (the people) stand aside and meekly submit to this sort of behavior, the more of it we can expect to be subjected to. We’re letting the ends justify the means.

Some will argue that 'if you aren't doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about'. Not so. Obviously, the dragnet was not targeted but was just hitting every boat they could reach. That means even if you are doing nothing wrong you still have to look over your shoulder constantly and be in fear of being boarded/harassed. And even if all you loose is some time and the need to clean up your boat, it fosters a mistrust of the authorities within the general population and that leads to a lack of respect for those same authorities and therefor less chance that the public will be inclined to follow/believe them when they are doing something justified and needed.

Of course I wasn’t there, so I could be wrong, but that’s what I take from the tone of Buzilla’s post.

But, you know, I’m a hippy from California. We don’t trust the Man ‘round these parts!

And that's about enough from me. I'll shut up now and let you return to your regularly scheduled programing

[zelatore]

Judging from the look on your avitar's face, I think Fred knows where the pot is.

[VetteLT193]

Speaking only for myself...
The problem is with the way the searches were conducted. What was the probable cause? Do they need permission to board? The image portrayed here is one of families out for a day on the water being harassed needlessly; their boats being boarded without permission even before they get to the dock (what’s the rush?) then the officers all but trashing the boat tearing through every nook and cranny in a fevered search for….um, er, something. All because the boater was guilty of being on the water. I always get upset when the local gestapo gets a bug up their collective asses and starts conduction blanket stops/searches. It reeks of a local municipality trolling for cash and has very little to do with serving the public good.
I think somebody else might have mentioned it elsewhere, but this reminds me of a recent Americade where the cops set up a 'checkpoint' and pulled over every single bike that came by for a 'safety inspection'. (btw, this is Americade, not Hollister or Sturgis, it’s a pretty family-friendly crowd, not a bunch of hell-raisers) No probable cause other than they were on two wheels. While they were doing this, they were ignoring cars going by with obvious issues - they only stopped bikes. The same thing happens regularly with the TN state police at the Dragon. It's just plain illegal. What if they said 'hey, let's just pull over every black guy that drives by'? Same concept, but we wouldn’t allow that, would we? It's a fundamental civil rights violation. But they can get away with doing this to boaters or bikers because we’re not seen as a minority nor are we organized enough to be heard by politicians when we complain. If we even bother to complain at all. At least the bikers have the AMA to lobby for them – that’s why I’m still a member even if I don’t agree with everything they do.
So yes, they found one drug runner and busted somebody for potentially having a stolen boat and/or motor. Was that good? Probably. Was it worth subjecting you, me, and everybody else to needless harassment? Probably not. As for the wanted felons they got on outstanding warrants, why did they sweep them up randomly instead of just going and targeting them specifically? Seems better than just setting up a giant bust and hoping the bad guys come to you.
The biggest problem is the precedent it sets. The more we (the people) stand aside and meekly submit to this sort of behavior, the more of it we can expect to be subjected to. We’re letting the ends justify the means.
Some will argue that 'if you aren't doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about'. Not so. Obviously, the dragnet was not targeted but was just hitting every boat they could reach. That means even if you are doing nothing wrong you still have to look over your shoulder constantly and be in fear of being boarded/harassed. And even if all you loose is some time and the need to clean up your boat, it fosters a mistrust of the authorities within the general population and that leads to a lack of respect for those same authorities and therefor less chance that the public will be inclined to follow/believe them when they are doing something justified and needed.
Of course I wasn’t there, so I could be wrong, but that’s what I take from the tone of Buzilla’s post.
But, you know, I’m a hippy from California. We don’t trust the Man ‘round these parts!
And that's about enough from me. I'll shut up now and let you return to your regularly scheduled programing

Well put. If I'm not doing anything wrong just leave me the hell alone.

[BUIZILLA]

I was just informed the arrest was for an outstanding Federal warrant.... funny that, I see this guy all the time at a couple different ramps....

they weren't selective in boarding, if you looked like a *profile* customer, they got on your boat, plain and simple as that... I did hear them ask a couple boaters for boarding permission, but I also saw them just jump right on a couple others, everyone had to produce an ID as well, now where do you hide an ID in your thong... that was an issue too, so they made people go back to their vehicles and retrieve ID's....

[zelatore]

Fred is debating on whether to use a, ahh, never mind :)

Maybe he's debating on whether to give someone '5 'cross 'yo lip!'

I think we should put Fred and Archie Bunker in a cage match. They can do a tag-team with 'Meathead' Michael and 'You Big Dummy!' Lamont.

[mike o]

Well put. If I'm not doing anything wrong just leave me the hell alone.
Im on this team, thank you

[Air 22]

FYI, the Coasties do not have to ask permission to board.. Usually they do out of courtesy, but they are not required to do so..

Been their...Done those boardings with LED units, 110 Island Class Patrol Boats and 378WHEC's...If you look like what were "looking for" were gonna stop and inspect:smash: and that was b4 9/11:wink:

[DON N.]

HOW IS THIS EQUAL "OLD" WOOD APPEARING CHRIS AND HACKERS ARE
EXEMPT ? :confused:

[Sweet little 16]

HOW IS THIS EQUAL "OLD" WOOD APPEARING CHRIS AND HACKERS ARE
EXEMPT ? :confused:


well they are not depending on year anything even a donzi from 1965 or earlier is exempt so if they let a new old looking hacker go untested it is not equal at all but those woodie guy are all old and have small inline hercules motors and can't go fast :0 NOT!!!!

[DON N.]

EXAMPLE 1948 HACKER PICTURED @ WOLFBORO IN N.H. "48 G" PRE POKER RUN @ WOLF TRAP HAD EXHAUST OUT THE SIDES IN THE REAR WITH A 600 H.P. CHEVY IN IT . WAS LOUDER THAN MY BOAT .
LAKE GEORGE N.Y. HAS THE SAME TYPE BOATS . :angel:

[BRIAN73]

Hi,
Here are my experiences with the LG Enforcement, and i'm a local. I have been tested and ticketed on both Donzi's i have owned.
The first was in my 16, an elderly person on shore called the cops, sighting I was disturbing the peace. They pulled me over as I was attemping to get back to my house. Slightly modified 350 chevy, log manifolds 93DB, (Brian Gets A Ticket)
Result: Shotgun Silencers Payed The Ticket ALL GOOD
The second time was with the race engine that came in my X-18. Yes it was my fault, I knew it was loud but I had to do a short shake down run to determine what needed to be changed or modified on the boat.
Cop, got me comming from the ramp to my house. The luck I have?????? Tested again failed 107db's at idle.
Result: Payed the ticket changed the engine and added slip in silencers. Net result 89dbs.
I'm now so paraoid that i have to scan the area with binocculars to avoid being harrased by the water cops.
What a country we live in.
PS, There are old woodies sporting 700hp plus that make more noise than mine.
My next boat is going to be a pre 1966 vintage of some sort that will fall under the grandfathered sound laws of the time. And yes it is going to be f***ing loud all the time.
Brian

[jl1962]

Hi Brian -

I have a '67 Ski Sporter up in Glenburnie - we may have met at last summer's ACBS show. My question is: are pre-66 boats grandfathered?

BTW - my boat has mufflers from Performance - believe it is at or just under 90dbs - I have not been stopped or tested.... YET!

-Jay

[zelatore]

I'm now so paraoid that i have to scan the area with binocculars to avoid being harrased by the water cops.
What a country we live in.
PS, There are old woodies sporting 700hp plus that make more noise than mine.
My next boat is going to be a pre 1966 vintage of some sort that will fall under the grandfathered sound laws of the time. And yes it is going to be f***ing loud all the time.
Brian

This sort of fits in with what I wrote before about LEO conducting blanket boardings of everybody within sight. You shouldn't have an attitude of 'us vs. them'; you should be glad to see LEO out doing a good job serving and protecting the public. Instead, becuase they are harrasing you over loud pipes, (ok, you might have deserved it with the race motor) you now have developed a dislike/distrust or even outright anger about them and go out of your way to avoid them.

How does it serve the general good when the public fears/avoids LEOs for fear of being harrased?

As for getting a grandfathered early boat and running the loudest f#&@ing pipes you can, I certainly understand! There's nothing I'd like to do better than find the whiny little SOB who complained about your boat, back up a straight-piped monster motored vintage boat to his little piece of shoreline, and let him have about 110 db for an hour or so. The personal satisfaction would be great indeed. However we all know such things will only make matters worse. Next thing you know, they'll start enforcing sound rules on early boats that were never built to comply with any rule, or trying to ban power boats all together. So it's probably not the best idea, even though it pains me to think Mr. whiny SOB is 'winning'.

Crap. I said I was going to shut up about this, didn't I? Guess I just can't help myself. :hangum:

[Sweet little 16]

yes it is unfair our reputation as cigarette type boats gives us a bad rap and a guy runnin g around in a wooden boat that is twice as loud as ours and never gets even a second look

Brian didn't you build that motor has such you are entitled to a pass from noise laws our next boat will be noted as a race boat on the bill of sale and every time we go out we'll be practicing for the next race ;)

6. Exceptions. The provisions of this section shall not apply to pleasure vessels designed, manufactured and sold for the sole purpose of competing in racing events and for no other purpose. Any such exemption or exception shall be so documented in any and every sale agreement and shall be formally acknowledged by signature on the part of both the buyer and the seller and copies of said agreement shall be maintained by both parties. A copy shall be kept on board whenever the pleasure vessel is operated. Any pleasure vessel sold under this exemption may only be operated on the waters of this state in accordance with this section.
The provisions of this section shall also not apply to:
(a) Pleasure vessels which are competing in or participating for a definite race over a given course held under the auspices of any bona fide club or racing association between the hours of nine o'clock in the morning and sunset, which has been approved pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-four of this chapter, and all provisions of such section have been complied with or pursuant to authorization by the commandant of the United States Coast Guard.
(b) An authorized agent of the federal, state or municipal government when operating a pleasure vessel necessary to carry out his or her official duty of enforcement, search and rescue, firefighting or research programs.
(c) A pleasure vessel being operated by a boat or marine engine manufacturer for the purposes of testing and/or development.
(d) A pleasure vessel manufactured prior to nineteen hundred sixty-five.

[zelatore]

So I see several "outs"

Start a paper buisness building engines. Gotta test 'em! 'come on down to Don's Engines where loud pipes save lives!'

Join the local volunteer fire department and put a big sticker on the side of the boat...then you too can 'serve and protect'.

Start you're one 'yacht club' and sanction a race every saturday...

[Air 22]

510cu. Rumble anyone?? Be very very quite..we R hunting the DEC...lol:nilly::cool:

[Air 22]

As we are engine builders, just need folks mailing addresses and we'll send out some Blanchard Machinery decals for your boats. Thank you for your assistance in the development of our new marine engines. :D :D


Are u using Aluminum or Cast Iron Blocks??:nilly::wink::smash::hyper:

[Kirbyvv]

OK, now here's the regs from the Lake George Park commission. No where does it mention 90 dbl at 3 meters. I got stopped this year too, with mufflers and my 87 dbl pink slip from being tested 2 years ago. it was the same guy who tested me then. he also told me to stay away from shore because even if i did pass my boat sounded loud. WTF

Section 646-2.8 Noise Limits.
(a) No person shall operate a vessel on the waters of Lake George which is propelled wholly or partly by an engine operated by the explosion of gas, gasoline, naphtha or other substance, without having the exhaust from the engine run through an effective muffler so constructed and used as to muffle the noise of the exhaust in a reasonable manner. Dry stacks, cut outs and straight pipes are expressly prohibited.
(b) No person shall operate a vessel on the waters of Lake George which exceeds 86 db when measured at not less than 50 feet from the vessel being tested or 80 db when measured at not less than 100 feet from the vessel being tested.
(c) All decibel levels are to be measured on a decibel meter gaged to an A-weighted scale. Measurements of decibel levels shall be taken when the subject vessel is in motion or by static test when the subject vessel is stationary with engine operating at not more than 3,500 rpm.
(d) Any patrolman or law enforcement officer of the Commission, the State of New York, or any political subdivision having jurisdiction of the waters of Lake George, who has reason to believe that vessel is being operated in excess of the noise levels established in this Section may request the operator of the vessel to subject the vessel to a test as set forth in this Section to measure noise levels, with the officer on board if the officer so requests, and the operator shall comply with such request. Failure to comply with the request shall constitute a violation of this Section.
(e) The provisions of this Section shall not apply to a vessel competing in or practicing for a boat race over a specified course held by a bona fide club or racing association between the hours of 9 a.m. and 6 p.m., provided the due written notice of the date of the race and scheduled practice times have been given to the Commission not less than 15 days prior to the date of any such race or scheduled practice times, and the event is registered with the Commission on such forms as the Commission may prescribe. Where appropriate, the Commission may require that notice of the event and all scheduled practice times be given to persons who may be impacted by the event.